From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 03:08:39 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 21:08:39 -0600
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontnEzKQFefZFk=_JHF8USgm4Z_HKgi3iG+VaOmRF8iVxw@mail.gmail.com>

As Adrian pointed out "ouch" in japanese is ??, pronounced etai.

And while it is true young Japanese love to use foreign words and say OK,
especially if they are in the presence of foreigners.  And it is not
spelled roman letters: OK.  It is spelled in the katakana alphabet (????)
reserved for foreign words, and looks different from the same letters in
the hiragana alphabet they use for true japanese words.  In other words, if
they shape the letters in katakana, it specifically seys (this is not
Japanese).

Traditional or older japanese won't use (????), they are more likely to say
?????
[???????????]
pronounced Wakarimashia (formal)  wakata (less formal) Literal translation:
"I understand"




On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 4:17?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Saturday, 30 September, 2023 3:06 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] little puzzle
>
>
>
> >?Spike got it - okay.   I think ADrian's answer of 'ouch' might fit too.
> But I'll bet OK is said far more often.   In a medical setting Ok is added
> to just about every question ,even though it's not a question:
>
> 'We're just going to take one leg off, OK?'  (try saying 'NO' and see them
> fluster - the 'choice' you are given is almost always illusory).
>  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I had an advantage Billw: I live in an area where everybody is from
> somewhere.  I have overheard conversations in Spanish, in German, in
> American redneck, Ukrainian, Russian, every known African language,
> Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Vietnamese and even French (we try to keep
> that one quiet.)  In every one of those languages, I hear them come to OK,
> liberally interspersed in a discussion and almost always at the end of a
> phone conversation.  That means the same in every language: I agree, good,
> let?s do that.  Every language on the planet, every conference, every
> negotiation, everything needs that term and they have all borrowed it from
> whoever invented it.  Who or where was that?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 1:58?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] little puzzle
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 11:36?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> What word, the same in all languages (I think), is likely the most uttered
> word worldwide?
>
>
>
> Billw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 03:28:33 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 23:28:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Saturday, 30 September, 2023 3:06 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] little puzzle
>
>
>
> >?Spike got it - okay.   I think ADrian's answer of 'ouch' might fit too.
> But I'll bet OK is said far more often.   In a medical setting Ok is added
> to just about every question ,even though it's not a question:
>
> 'We're just going to take one leg off, OK?'  (try saying 'NO' and see them
> fluster - the 'choice' you are given is almost always illusory).
>  bill w
>

Take a drink every time someone says OK:
https://youtu.be/-DfABsLFVAA


>
> I had an advantage Billw: I live in an area where everybody is from
> somewhere.  I have overheard conversations in Spanish, in German, in
> American redneck, Ukrainian, Russian, every known African language,
> Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Vietnamese and even French (we try to keep
> that one quiet.)  In every one of those languages, I hear them come to OK,
> liberally interspersed in a discussion and almost always at the end of a
> phone conversation.  That means the same in every language: I agree, good,
> let?s do that.  Every language on the planet, every conference, every
> negotiation, everything needs that term and they have all borrowed it from
> whoever invented it.  Who or where was that?
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK

"OK's origins are disputed; however, most modern reference works hold that
it originated around Boston as part of a fad for misspelling in the late
1830s, and originally stood for "oll korrect [all correct]". This origin
was first described by linguist Allen Walker Read in the 1960s."

Jason
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Oct  1 03:33:35 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 20:33:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015401d9f418$0fa34110$2ee9c330$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Jason Resch via extropy-chat



 

 

>>?Every language on the planet, every conference, every negotiation, everything needs that term and they have all borrowed it from whoever invented it.  Who or where was that?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK

 

>?"OK's origins are disputed; however, most modern reference works hold that it originated around Boston as part of a fad for misspelling in the late 1830s, and originally stood for "oll korrect [all correct]". This origin was first described by linguist Allen Walker Read in the 1960s."

 

Jason 

 

 

 

So I hear.  Well OK, what was the term used in the 1700s and early 1800s which did that word?s job?

 

spike

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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 03:38:28 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 23:38:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <015401d9f418$0fa34110$2ee9c330$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <015401d9f418$0fa34110$2ee9c330$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUiYjRtpLcpKjWAD5TwF-fnPJjLK5x=xB0AkxDHjb_9Uzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 11:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> >? *On Behalf Of *Jason Resch via extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
>
> >>?Every language on the planet, every conference, every negotiation,
> everything needs that term and they have all borrowed it from whoever
> invented it.  Who or where was that?
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK
>
>
>
> >?"OK's origins are disputed; however, most modern reference works hold
> that it originated around Boston as part of a fad for misspelling in the
> late 1830s, and originally stood for "oll korrect [all correct]". This
> origin was first described by linguist Allen Walker Read in the 1960s."
>
>
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So I hear.  Well OK, what was the term used in the 1700s and early 1800s
> which did that word?s job?
>
If OK means "All Correct" then perhaps "All Right" -- "Alright" filled that
spot, which originated around the 1660s.

Jason

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 13:29:16 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 08:29:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontnEzKQFefZFk=_JHF8USgm4Z_HKgi3iG+VaOmRF8iVxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontnEzKQFefZFk=_JHF8USgm4Z_HKgi3iG+VaOmRF8iVxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZuWKip7EEN+3=6kU=cXq0GjA6mXMGT=kzJO0BmPcxb6w@mail.gmail.com>

Very interesting - Japanese.  I don't know if I could have gone further in
life without knowing these things.   bill w

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:10?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> As Adrian pointed out "ouch" in japanese is ??, pronounced etai.
>
> And while it is true young Japanese love to use foreign words and say OK,
> especially if they are in the presence of foreigners.  And it is not
> spelled roman letters: OK.  It is spelled in the katakana alphabet (????)
> reserved for foreign words, and looks different from the same letters in
> the hiragana alphabet they use for true japanese words.  In other words, if
> they shape the letters in katakana, it specifically seys (this is not
> Japanese).
>
> Traditional or older japanese won't use (????), they are more likely to
> say
> ?????
> [???????????]
> pronounced Wakarimashia (formal)  wakata (less formal) Literal
> translation: "I understand"
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 4:17?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>> *Sent:* Saturday, 30 September, 2023 3:06 PM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] little puzzle
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Spike got it - okay.   I think ADrian's answer of 'ouch' might fit
>> too. But I'll bet OK is said far more often.   In a medical setting Ok is
>> added to just about every question ,even though it's not a question:
>>
>> 'We're just going to take one leg off, OK?'  (try saying 'NO' and see
>> them fluster - the 'choice' you are given is almost always illusory).
>>    bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I had an advantage Billw: I live in an area where everybody is from
>> somewhere.  I have overheard conversations in Spanish, in German, in
>> American redneck, Ukrainian, Russian, every known African language,
>> Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Vietnamese and even French (we try to keep
>> that one quiet.)  In every one of those languages, I hear them come to OK,
>> liberally interspersed in a discussion and almost always at the end of a
>> phone conversation.  That means the same in every language: I agree, good,
>> let?s do that.  Every language on the planet, every conference, every
>> negotiation, everything needs that term and they have all borrowed it from
>> whoever invented it.  Who or where was that?
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 1:58?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] little puzzle
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 11:36?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> What word, the same in all languages (I think), is likely the most
>> uttered word worldwide?
>>
>>
>>
>> Billw
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Oct  1 13:30:23 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2023 06:30:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03073341ed2b494907e29d1079d00ae5@sollegro.com>

On 2023-09-30 20:28, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> "OK's origins are disputed; however, most modern reference works hold
> that it originated around Boston as part of a fad for misspelling in
> the late 1830s, and originally stood for "oll korrect [all correct]".
> This origin was first described by linguist Allen Walker Read in the
> 1960s."

To say that the origin of OK is disputed is a blatant understatement; 
there are 37 distinct etymologies proposed. That makes it one of the 
most controversial words I know of.

I like the one that says it is an Anglicization of the Chocktaw suffix 
oke, okeh ("it is" or "indeed")

What a fascinating word. Before OK was brought up, I was thinking of 
"mama". The syllable "ma" occurs in the word for mother in every 
language that I myself am familiar with. It lies at the very definition 
of "mammal". It might be a runner up to OK in terms of being close to a 
universal word. Can anybody think of an exception?

Stuart LaForge



From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 14:04:06 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 10:04:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <03073341ed2b494907e29d1079d00ae5@sollegro.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <03073341ed2b494907e29d1079d00ae5@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <0224E1CD-6688-49E3-B8CF-09B4A2815617@gmail.com>

> Can anybody think of an exception?

In the Georgian language the word for mother is pronounced ?dede? and the word for father is pronounced ?mama.?

> On Oct 1, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On 2023-09-30 20:28, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote:
>> On Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 6:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> "OK's origins are disputed; however, most modern reference works hold
>> that it originated around Boston as part of a fad for misspelling in
>> the late 1830s, and originally stood for "oll korrect [all correct]".
>> This origin was first described by linguist Allen Walker Read in the
>> 1960s."
> 
> To say that the origin of OK is disputed is a blatant understatement; there are 37 distinct etymologies proposed. That makes it one of the most controversial words I know of.
> 
> I like the one that says it is an Anglicization of the Chocktaw suffix oke, okeh ("it is" or "indeed")
> 
> What a fascinating word. Before OK was brought up, I was thinking of "mama". The syllable "ma" occurs in the word for mother in every language that I myself am familiar with. It lies at the very definition of "mammal". It might be a runner up to OK in terms of being close to a universal word. Can anybody think of an exception?
> 
> Stuart LaForge
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Oct  1 16:06:08 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 09:06:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZuWKip7EEN+3=6kU=cXq0GjA6mXMGT=kzJO0BmPcxb6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontnEzKQFefZFk=_JHF8USgm4Z_HKgi3iG+VaOmRF8iVxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZuWKip7EEN+3=6kU=cXq0GjA6mXMGT=kzJO0BmPcxb6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005b01d9f481$30cbc740$926355c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] little puzzle

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Sep 30, 2023 at 10:10?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

?

 

Traditional or older japanese won't use (????), they are more likely to say 

?????

[???????????]

pronounced Wakarimashia (formal)  wakata (less formal) Literal translation: "I understand"?

 

 

 

>?Very interesting - Japanese.  I don't know if I could have gone further in life without knowing these things.   billw 

 

 

Billw, now see what ya started?  

 

Cool, this is the reason I stayed around on this list for 30 years: I really dig the chaotic nature, the way threads meander into unpredictable directions.  That happens when you get a group of smart people together on a chat site.  We could make this into a fun exercise by asking ChatGPT for a single word in {fill in favorite language} which means ?do you agree?? then see how often it comes back with OK.

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 16:08:47 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 09:08:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] little puzzle
In-Reply-To: <03073341ed2b494907e29d1079d00ae5@sollegro.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <03073341ed2b494907e29d1079d00ae5@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTQ-eMt6dNdzoyfyc6Mw+8JFmAmJ2BwcHW5ng-EmOVDmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 6:31?AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> What a fascinating word. Before OK was brought up, I was thinking of
> "mama". The syllable "ma" occurs in the word for mother in every
> language that I myself am familiar with. It lies at the very definition
> of "mammal". It might be a runner up to OK in terms of being close to a
> universal word. Can anybody think of an exception?
>

The Danish translation of "mama" is "mor".  Finnish is "?iti".  Lao is
"aem".  Mongolian is "eej".  And there's Georrgian, as Gadersd pointed out.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Oct  1 16:24:10 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 09:24:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] own nossink.  be happy.
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTQ-eMt6dNdzoyfyc6Mw+8JFmAmJ2BwcHW5ng-EmOVDmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYFDWxJg754WzZWZHrooswd4cBt3HhNRiH2ATJ9ATdVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTLBRZzr=TPW5jTvMiRVktciRt4iJJWKkBych+bBGV6xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d9f3cf$e4ad9020$ae08b060$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEao6pHSBbg0-Mp4Kc3zH+qQ08XpFL+DD+uOrZABx6vbwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00bd01d9f3eb$d1ad25f0$750771d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CA+BCJUhk4hPG-FToVEuP5NAyVaczR2G0xuyNWHOqadQQ=atvXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <03073341ed2b494907e29d1079d00ae5@sollegro.com>
 <CALAdGNTQ-eMt6dNdzoyfyc6Mw+8JFmAmJ2BwcHW5ng-EmOVDmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401d9f483$b5fe5f20$21fb1d60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

How about a little fun on a Sunday morning?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI4IzlOSCBs

 

spike

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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Oct  1 18:48:56 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 20:48:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The meaning of life? Let's solve this together, once and
 for all! ; )
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjcSHqOSt96P8zfZ0MN=z6Uxb0iQ-+4hjU7CFcpa516kA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31c8f424-9eea-e307-1fe8-340357edff7d@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUgm=Rg1LqnP1SYoF6vny92DU0+hxgxNUGbQkdSLkF-faA@mail.gmail.com>
 <883d2dbd-9a59-9404-473d-9baa47f4ef1e@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUjcSHqOSt96P8zfZ0MN=z6Uxb0iQ-+4hjU7CFcpa516kA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e5e57f3b-5fd2-ad40-e9af-e63f56f6de42@swisscows.email>

Good evening Jason,

On Fri, 29 Sep 2023, Jason Resch wrote:

>       Interesting! I think we might have a first point of divergence here.
>       When it comes to the meaning of life, I'm not so interested actually in
>       the reason. That is a question I leave to science as in what's the
>       reason I am here, evolution, reproduction etc.
>
>       Purpose, could also stray close to science, as in propagating genes, but
>       purpose could also be given a deeper meaning I think, so this is getting
>       closer.
>
>       When it comes to value, I think it would be interesting to see how value
>       is measured and in what "currency"?
> 
> Some have come up with the term "utils" (or alternatively?hedons, utiles, utilons).

Well, those are all good in that they do not have any connotations like
currency, but I still wonder about how they would be quantified.

>       When I think about meaning of life, I think about something which gives
>       me a deep sense of connection to the universe, it could be an over
>       arching theme of my life, perhaps an ultimate quest or journey which
>       fills my life with significance. (I tried on purpose to not use the
>       words value or purpose here, so see if you can perhaps find a better
>       word in english for me to use.)
>
>       I also distinguish between levels of meaning. The paragraph above is the
>       "ultimate" or final deep seated meaning that transforms the way you
>       live. There is also a more mundande level of meaning to me, such as
>       evolution, propagating genes, provide for my family, being a positive
>       and contributing part of our global economy and thus on a tiny level
>       making life better for everyone.
>
>       Those types of meaning, I consider philosophical chicken soup. It's nice
>       to say, it's nice to think about, but I wouldn't say that any of those
>       things fundamentally shift the way I live my life. They are kind of
>       "bolted on" a lifestyle that I was given by my culture and parents. So
>       perhaps a benefit by verbalizing them, is that my life, given those
>       reasons as a backdrop, might be lived more consciously than just going
>       through the motions and not thinking about how, what you do, contributes
>       to the rest of humanity and the world we're in.
>
>       Do I make any sense?
> 
> I think I see what you are pointing at.
> 
> Is it what the Dzogchen seek? Is it God-Realization? Is it the experience of Ego Death?

I don't know, but I think it could be the same experience regardless of
if it is called mystical union, god-realization, ego-death, or
enlightement. That's my theory at least.

I always assumed, that this would be the top of Maslows scale, but
perhaps it could be argued that this is a difference scale? Or do you
think it is related? Thinking about what I read and seen about saints,
it certainly seems like the ultimate and supreme experience for them, so
that would perhaps indicate that it does belong to the scale.

> I think what is common in all of these is transcending the illusion of the self as one small part of existence, and expanding one's
> self-identification to the whole, or the all. This, as you say, can rewrite, or transform one's approach to life, interaction with
> others, and perhaps make one more "selfless."

I wonder if expanding ones range of consciousness or expanding ones
quality of consciousness might be a better way to describe it? Illusion
and union to me is very imprecise, but I don't know if anyone ever
managed to capture what happens in the brain at the moment of
enlightenment. I'm fairly sure that psilocybin trips have been captured,
but are those smaller intensity examples on the same scale as the
ultimate union, or is the ultimate union something different? I have no
idea, but I think it is very interesting to think about.

>       > states of awareness / consciousness. Those things that are "instrumentally meaningful" are valuable only in so far as
>       their potential
>       > to affect states of consciousness.
>
>       Isn't "valuable only in so far as their potential to affect states of
>       consciousness" a truism?
> 
> I think so. But it is a clarifying truism, and one that often goes not directly acknowledged.

Fair point!

>       By the fact that we are physical beings with
>       conscisoussness, wouldn't that mean everything is meaningful?
> 
> I think there is some meaning (value) in every conscious experience (which may be regarded as negative or positive, on the whole).

You mean value in terms of realizing meaning? That all experiences
detract or add to the final goal of realizing meaning?

>       I agree to the extent that realizing deep seated meaning and values, is
>       a mental process, fed with impressions and experiences from the physical
>       world, or perhaps, not even that. It could be argued that some actually
>       starve the mind of impressions and experiences to find their deep seated
>       meaning.
> 
> Yes, perhaps this is why some use meditation or sensory deprivation as a path to bring about such an experience of the kind you
> allude to.

That would be my theory.

>       > If we accept this premise, then the question is somewhat simplified. What are the desirous states of consciousness that
>       we seek?
>
>       Yes, and how (if at all?) can these states be induced in a human being
>       in a reliable way, to enrich that persons life?
> 
> I can't speak to the reliability, but these are often mentioned:
>  *  Stroke and Traumatic?Brain Injury
>  *  Transcranial Stimulation
>  *  Meditation
>  *  Sensory Deprivation
>  *  Fasting
>  *  Psychedelics / Entheogens
>  *  Thought
>  *  Koans
>  *  Action

Good list! I would add spontaneous enlightement as well, although very
rare. I also wonder if near-death experiences would add anything to
this? But I guess that is to be found under stroke/traumatic brain
injry.

In terms of meditation I would add the distinction:

* Cataphatic (imaging God, imagination or words) ? e.g., The Spiritual
    Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Francis of
    Assisi; and

* Apophatic (imageless, stillness, and wordlessness) ? inspired by the
    writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, which forms the basis of
    Eastern Orthodox mysticism and hesychasm, and became influential in
    western Catholic mysticism from the 12th century AD onward, as in The
    Cloud of Unknowing and Meister Eckhart.[69]

Urban T. Holmes III categorized mystical theology in terms of whether it
focuses on illuminating the mind, which Holmes refers to as speculative
practice, or the heart/emotions, which he calls affective practice.
Combining the speculative/affective scale with the apophatic/cataphatic
scale allows for a range of categories:[70]

      Rationalism = Cataphatic and speculative
      Pietism = Cataphatic and affective
      Encratism = Apophatic and speculative
      Quietism = Apophatic and affective

When it comes to psychedelics, what I wonder about is how exact the
mapping of compound to effect is?

I heard that some people get hooked on the mystical experience and come
back to psychedelics again and again and that in turn makes me wonder
about how healthy that behaviour is, vs a more "natural" way to achieve
the experience.

>       I agree. For me, essential meaning is a deel personal question. I do
>       however believe that the process of finding or reaching this state can
>       be fed by philosophy and science. I think that exploring theories beyond
>       our world could lead one to make the necessary connections in the brain,
>       that inspires one to deeper meaning.
>
>       So yes, it is deeply subjective, yet I think that actions and thoughts
>       can influence the process so it is not completely devoid of tangible
>       starting points.
> 
> I do think certain thought patterns/ideas can help bring about the experience. For example, meditating deeply on the question of how
> one came to exist. Or even watching a movie like "The Prestige" which is about what one experiences when duplicated. I think reading
> Arnold Zuboff's?arguments in "One self: the logic of experience" can be helpful as well, but all of these can only "bring the horse
> to the water", so to speak. It is up to the?person to do the drinking.

Agreed!

>       >? ? ? ?But for me, that is not Meaning with a capital m. All the previous levels in
>       >? ? ? ?Maslows pyramid contribute to a good life, but at the top with have the
>       >? ? ? ?mystical self-actualization, and I am somewhat attracted to the earth (or
>       >? ? ? ?universe) shattering realizations of a union with the universe that the mystics
>       >? ? ? ?talk about.
>       >
>       > Or as variously described as:
>       > Moksha
>       > Nirvana?
>       > Enlightenment
>
>       Yes. But I'm not happy with the religious overtones,
> 
> While these terms are used in various religions, I don't find these particularly religious concepts, rather, they represent the
> common mystic teaching, which is almost universal across societies and times (the perennial philosophy). Which I think is what you
> allude to as the origin of religion, the fundamental experience itself.

True. Well, I guess it is mostly individual. To me, they bring
connotations of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zen. But as you say, referring to
the same underlying experience.

>       and I wonder if it
>       is possible to achieve such a state outside of a religious tradition, or
>       if the tradition is necessary for achievement of that state?
> 
> I think it's quite possible to experience it outside of a religious tradition.

Have you ever heard about it or read a book that discusses that theme?

I would be very interested if such a spontaneous experience caused a
non-religious person to become religious, or if it somehow detracted
from the experience, or what fundamental changes in that persons life
resulted from it.

Coming from a religious framework might give you some conceptual tools
to analyze or deal with the experience. Not having that framework, I
wonder if a person creates their own, or if the experience fades to a
pleasant memory?

I vaguely remember watching a documentary about mycologist Paul Stamets
where he talked about a mushroom induced experience, but I don't know if
he had any religious upbringing or not.

>       I don't know if it is true or not, but wasn't the Buddha agnostic on the
>       question of gods?
> 
> It varies a bit depending on which sect of Buddhism you emphasize, but there is, nonetheless, a general agreement that mind is what
> is primarily behind everything. Here are some passages that show the spectrum of Buddhist thinking on the question:
> 
> "All the phenomena of existence have mind as their precursor, mind as their supreme leader, and of mind are they made."
> -- Gautama Buddha in ?The Dhammapada? (c. 500 B.C.)

Ahh, perhaps time to whip out the old Dhammapada again? =) Too bad it is
in a box in my attic in Sweden, but good old internet to the rescue!

> "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my essence. [?] Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that
> lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I
> am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me. [?] All that manifests from my Body, my Voice, and my Mind
> springs from my essence, is re-absorbed in it, and is nothing other than my essence."
> --?Kulayar?ja Tantra 55.1 (c. 850 A.D.)
> 
> Both of these passages place mind at the base of reality. But Tibetan Buddhism describes this "pure and total consciousness" as the
> "supreme source" from which everything emanates, and thus you might identify this almost like "God", perhaps more of the flavor of
> Atman of Hinduism.
> 
> I think there is much we can learn from the study of old ideas,?whatever their source. Rather than trying to rediscover everything
> from scratch, people?have recorded their thoughts and ideas going back thousands of years, covering many billions of lives.

Agreed! In some cases the ancients where quite right in their guesses
although they did not have the framework. Then we rediscover it and also
discover why and how it connect to everything else. I wonder how much
there is left in these ancient traditions that will be confirmed by
science?

>       Might it be possible to distill those concepts into a more neutral or
>       descriptive one, and distill the various techniques of achieving it for
>       people to try?
> 
> Probably. But I don't know whether that would be better or worse.

We'll probably only know when we actually do try. See point above about
people getting addicted to union through psychedelics and keep going
back.

>       Will that be in any way beneficial and enriching for people, or, would
>       it risk people getting addicted to the experience to the detriment of
>       "normal" society?
> 
> I think experiments that have looked at giving ordinary people mystical experiences, have generally reported it as a profound
> positive impact on their life.

I vaguely remember results ranging from nothing, to nice to have, to
profound positive impact. But I do not remember any reasoning about why
some had profound experiences while other nothing at all. Mental or
biological setup? Aptitute? Placebo? Luck?

>       > Which I would say, is understanding who you really are.
>
>       What do we mean when we ask who we are?
> 
> This gets back to our discussion on personal identity.
> What experiences are ours. Why was "I" born as this person? Am "I" only this person? Am I the universe experiencing all lives, but
> only in a position to know one at a time? etc.
> Have you seen The Egg?

True! No, haven't seen. Do you have a link?

>       I don't know if I agree with the definition of absence of pain or not,
>       but I do agree that it is a much better definition than "pleasure". Is
>       contentment the absence of pain? Or is it more?
> 
> Dictionary.com gives "the state of being contented; satisfaction; ease of mind."
> Ease of mind, I would say, is more or less the same as an "absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul."

Got it.

>       > Yes happiness or contentment are good. Epicurus defined it negatively, in terms of absence of pain and suffering, which
>       I think is
>       > close to the same thing as contentment.
>
>       Ah, you answered my question above. To me as a non-native english
>       speaker, it feels as if there is a difference between contentment and
>       absence of pain. I think perhaps the reason could be that I have a worse
>       grasp of the nuances of the language, and perhaps, the culture I grew up
>       in (swedish)?
> 
> Contentment I think often bears a connotation of "mild happiness".

That would match my own feeling when I here contentment. I personally
also add a time dimension, where contentment is a longer lasting feeling
than joy or happiness, which for me, personally, are more peak
experiences.

>       Why would I be made happier if I had a way to create (and this is just a
>       thought experiment) small, happy consciousnesses without being able to
>       improve my own position?
> 
> It's not that you would be made happier by creating more experiences. Rather, it's that all conscious life regards having more
> positive experiences as better than fewer conscious experiences.

Ah ok, I misunderstood. One more clarifying question, what do you mean
when you say more positive experiences vs fewer conscious experiences?
You are comparing positive vs conscious but positive is also conscious?

> For the same reason that I hope you would see the destruction of Earth as a negative: the continuance of consciousness life on earth
> is regarded as a "good thing" because it allows for more conscious experiences to be created.

Maybe. A nr of theoretical thought experiments can be made up where the
destruction of Earth might actually be a good thing. I also do lean more
toward quality than quantity, because if more conscious experiences are
created but do end up in suffering, then perhaps it wasn't so good after
all? But in order to avoid the utilitarian trap, I prefer to focus on
individual meaning instead of groups of additive carriers of meaning and
positivity.

>       Sounds depressing to me that my life function
>       would be to create life, instead of living the life I have.
> 
> That's not your life function, it's a universal value that more experiences are better than fewer ones (when the experiences
> themselves are not negative ones). For example, I think anyone not in pain or suffering tends to prefer continued life (for example)

How would you say the it is a universal value? I can see how it would be
an individual value, but a collective and universal one, I'm not so
sure. Imagine that I live on planet A, by myself, and I have a good
life. Regardless of is person B on planet B lives and has a good life or
not, I'll never know, and I don't think the universe will care much
either. I do agree that I'm having a good life, and that's great, and I
do agree that person B is having a good life, and that is great too. But
person B:s life, on planet B, doesn't really affect the meaning of my
life lived in planet A.

I think I'm misunderstanding you here.

>       Maybe we should focus on quality and not quantity? Maybe there is no
>       inherent benefit in just quantity?
> 
> I think some balance is needed. Otherwise we are led to extremes like a single mind having a permanent heroin high, or something like
> that. Likewise the value for variety, rather than just quantity or quality.

Yes, that is true. Many are the theoretical thought examples which
crush most, if not all, ethical theories. ;)

Best regards, 
Daniel


>       > The trajectory of life, everywhere and anywhere in the universe will, I think, follow this trajectory. We are, as
>       conscious beings,
>       > on a course to fill the universe with consciousness for the purposes of realizing as many states of consciousness as
>       possible, to
>       > eliminate suffering and pain, and promote the creation of positive experiences for all conscience beings.
>       > It may make little difference whether it is us or our machine descendents that are in control, for I think all
>       conscious beings
>       > possess these goals, by virtue of the fact that they are conscious, and will deduce logically that all utility comes
>       felt states of
>       > consciousness (just as humans have been deducing for centuries).
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jason
> 
>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 18:59:43 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 13:59:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] video
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just how good is videoediting?  For instance:  take an old football game
video.  Could they put other people in the suits, change the suits, change
the people in the crowd, and so on while still keeping the action identical
so it looked like the older game but with different players?

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 19:03:39 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 14:03:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>

*?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest.? **Diderot*

*bill w*
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 19:07:07 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 14:07:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a little humor
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYYaB2yXra4-KZ=0EX3hhxLxyJc_uTXBA_ME5FcVJ_9Xg@mail.gmail.com>

"I never liked French kissing.  Often having one tongue in my mouth is too
many."

bill w
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Oct  1 20:15:01 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 22:15:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>

My amateur guess would be "yes". Looking forward to the experts opinion. 
=)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> Just how good is videoediting?? For instance:? take an old football game video.? Could they put other people in the suits, change the
> suits, change the people in the crowd, and so on while still keeping the action identical so it?looked like the older game but with
> different players?
> 
> bill w
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Oct  1 20:17:02 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 22:17:02 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>

Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last 
politician."? ;)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.??Diderot
> 
> bill w
> 
>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 20:19:24 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 14:19:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, and if they can't do that yet, how much longer?  A year or so?
And when will AI make the perfect custom movie (way better for us than any
studio could create with gazillions of $$$$) for each and every one of us,
the instant we are in the mood for watching such a movie?  2 years?  3 most?


On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:15?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> My amateur guess would be "yes". Looking forward to the experts opinion.
> =)
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > Just how good is videoediting?  For instance:  take an old football game
> video.  Could they put other people in the suits, change the
> > suits, change the people in the crowd, and so on while still keeping the
> action identical so it looked like the older game but with
> > different players?
> >
> > bill w
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sun Oct  1 20:30:25 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 22:30:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>

I think a much more sinister and interesting question will be when 
perfect, undetectable videos will be used to cause political chaos and 
make people lose all trust in everything except physical communication.

Think about it, if you can no longer trust any video of a politician on 
any media, how will you make judgments about the world? How will that 
impact the democratic political process?

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:

> 
> Yea, and if they can't do that yet, how much longer?? A year or so?
> And when will AI make the perfect custom movie (way better for us than any studio could create with gazillions of $$$$) for each?and
> every one of us, the instant we are in the mood for watching such a movie?? 2 years?? 3 most?
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:15?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       My amateur guess would be "yes". Looking forward to the experts opinion.
>       =)
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
>
>       On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > Just how good is videoediting?? For instance:? take an old football game video.? Could they put other people in the
>       suits, change the
>       > suits, change the people in the crowd, and so on while still keeping the action identical so it?looked like the older
>       game but with
>       > different players?
>       >
>       > bill w
>       >
>       >_______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 20:48:17 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 13:48:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSaTqj8jGi-6ZH34D7-AP5H-0hJbWa8pvJiKWrSSUHBKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 1:31?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Think about it, if you can no longer trust any video of a politician on
> any media, how will you make judgments about the world? How will that
> impact the democratic political process?
>

By not imparting sole veracity to videos.

We are there already.   Think about it: what happens, today, when someone
posts a deepfake video about a politician?  Only the most gullible (which
is, sadly, too many) - who would believe such claims without any evidence,
so whether evidence is forged doesn't matter to them - fall for it  The
rest of us look for, and usually quickly find, clues outside the video as
to whether the incident shown in the video did or did not happen.
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Oct  1 20:51:54 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 16:51:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <ba9ee628e7b963dde0c96d9ee7912d70.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

That is something I've thought about.  Not only is online stuff suspect,
but with AI writing news articles or opinion pieces, then print is even
less certain than before.  We've always had lies, but this is different.

I'm already not trusting of unknown emails or phone calls.

RISKS digest recently had warnings to mushroom hunters not to trust some
new mushroom books because they are AI written and not vetted for
safety...... and a mistake in mushroom hunting could be fatal.

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/33/82#subj6
and
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/sep/01/mushroom-pickers-urged-to-avoid-foraging-books-on-amazon-that-appear-to-be-written-by-ai

Regards,
MB



On Sun, October 1, 2023 16:30, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> I think a much more sinister and interesting question will be when
> perfect, undetectable videos will be used to cause political chaos and
> make people lose all trust in everything except physical communication.
>
> Think about it, if you can no longer trust any video of a politician on
> any media, how will you make judgments about the world? How will that
> impact the democratic political process?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 21:27:13 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 15:27:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <ba9ee628e7b963dde0c96d9ee7912d70.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
 <ba9ee628e7b963dde0c96d9ee7912d70.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvtHbc_oOwwzJo7HNV5X2cZNeZVEATPKXOhVzK0Gfo6SQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:53?PM MB via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I'm already not trusting of unknown emails or phone calls.
>

Yea, but don't you love scam baiting
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scam_baiting> them like I do?

Boy, I had a good one on the line the other day.  I usually have a
significant amount of crypto in my coinbase account, and this guy called
claiming to be a security admin from coinbase.
He knew so much information, like balances, and other stuff, that no joe
should know, and he used it so skillfully, he was very convincing.  It even
took me a bit before I realized he was not legit.  When he finally asked
for my coinbase 2 factor authentication key, that did give him away.
Evidently he had my passwords for both coinbase, and google.  Don't know
how he got all that.
But I kept him on the line long enough for me to contact coinbase customer
support, which they of course immediately proved he wasn't legit.
And of course I had to change all my passwords, and a bunch of things like
that.

It is quite the rush to deal with those types, but it is also very scary,
what they can and do do.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  1 23:19:03 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 18:19:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvtHbc_oOwwzJo7HNV5X2cZNeZVEATPKXOhVzK0Gfo6SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
 <ba9ee628e7b963dde0c96d9ee7912d70.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-onvtHbc_oOwwzJo7HNV5X2cZNeZVEATPKXOhVzK0Gfo6SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbppGgOTuZq9=TngJHS8FDUBbD0BgBPdsiberCALAmnqQ@mail.gmail.com>

There is a positive side:  secrecy is fading before the onslaught of
hackers, and that can be a very good thing.  bill w

On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 4:29?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:53?PM MB via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm already not trusting of unknown emails or phone calls.
>>
>
> Yea, but don't you love scam baiting
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scam_baiting> them like I do?
>
> Boy, I had a good one on the line the other day.  I usually have a
> significant amount of crypto in my coinbase account, and this guy called
> claiming to be a security admin from coinbase.
> He knew so much information, like balances, and other stuff, that no joe
> should know, and he used it so skillfully, he was very convincing.  It even
> took me a bit before I realized he was not legit.  When he finally asked
> for my coinbase 2 factor authentication key, that did give him away.
> Evidently he had my passwords for both coinbase, and google.  Don't know
> how he got all that.
> But I kept him on the line long enough for me to contact coinbase customer
> support, which they of course immediately proved he wasn't legit.
> And of course I had to change all my passwords, and a bunch of things like
> that.
>
> It is quite the rush to deal with those types, but it is also very scary,
> what they can and do do.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Oct  1 23:33:31 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 19:33:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbppGgOTuZq9=TngJHS8FDUBbD0BgBPdsiberCALAmnqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
 <ba9ee628e7b963dde0c96d9ee7912d70.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAK7-onvtHbc_oOwwzJo7HNV5X2cZNeZVEATPKXOhVzK0Gfo6SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbppGgOTuZq9=TngJHS8FDUBbD0BgBPdsiberCALAmnqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8914b8b86bd732a37505df123aa8f9b6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

There might be a difference between Secrecy and Privacy.

I don't want the hackers to have my banking info.  Nor do I want them
messing with my medical info - what if they contaminate my records and I
begin getting treatments for stuff that I don't have???  What if they use
my medical info to get treatments for themselves, and *I* get stuck with
the co-pays?  etc. etc.

Regards,
MB

On Sun, October 1, 2023 19:19, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> There is a positive side:  secrecy is fading before the onslaught of
> hackers, and that can be a very good thing.  bill w
>

From gadersd at gmail.com  Mon Oct  2 01:05:14 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 21:05:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2030C1BE-027C-4609-8A46-3F8C41B1737F@gmail.com>

> Just how good is videoediting?  For instance:  take an old football game video.  Could they put other people in the suits, change the suits, change the people in the crowd, and so on while still keeping the action identical so it looked like the older game but with different players?

Deepfakes are now quite good and convincing. The issue is generating completely new videos not derived from existing ones. The current state of the art for novel video generation is not yet generally good enough to fool people. Expect this to change within three years as the technology matures. Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of AI company Inflection, has said "We?re going to be training models that are 1,000x larger than they currently are in the next 3 years. Even at Inflection, with the compute that we have, will be 100x larger than current frontier models in the next 18 months.? 1000x larger would put the AI parameter count roughly on par with the connections in the human brain. There is a good chance that within three years we will have AGI and in that case almost nothing seen on the internet can be trusted.

> On Oct 1, 2023, at 2:59 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Just how good is videoediting?  For instance:  take an old football game video.  Could they put other people in the suits, change the suits, change the people in the crowd, and so on while still keeping the action identical so it looked like the older game but with different players?
> 
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct  2 02:43:59 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 19:43:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun
Message-ID: <003a01d9f4da$4c667050$e53350f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

This hasta be the coolest video I have seen in months.  This guy created the
world's smallest. well. sort of a nerf gun. using DNA strands.

 

When I see stuff like this, it causes me to realize that stuff like creating
something like an MBrain using nodes possibly constructed of DNA strands is
a possibility.

 

Check it out, this guy is a kick.  I have been a fan of his for years.
Keith check it out:

 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=world%27s+smallest+nerf+gun&sca_esv=56992712
3&source=hp&ei=iygaZcafMaHAkPIP1PyUyAk&iflsig=AO6bgOgAAAAAZRo2mydRxZ3MOSbEy5
JYfpfQy-it9XJC&oq=world%27s+smallest+nerf+gun&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihl3b3JsZCdz
IHNtYWxsZXN0IG5lcmYgZ3VuKgIIADILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwEyBBAAGAMyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4y
BhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYigUYhgMyCBAAGIoFGIYDSJ5QUABY5jtwAHgAkAEAmAF7oAHYD6oBBDIxLjS4
AQHIAQD4AQHCAhEQLhiABBixAxiDARjHARjRA8ICCxAuGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIFEC4YgATCAg4QLhiA
BBixAxjHARjRA8ICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGMkDwgIQEAAYgAQYsQMYgwEYsQMYCsICDRAAGIAEGLED
GIMBGArCAggQABiABBjJA8ICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAggQLhiABBixA8ICCxAA
GIoFGLEDGIMBwgIIEAAYigUYsQPCAggQLhiABBjlBA&sclient=gws-wiz#kpvalbx=_mygaZeTH
IdKp0PEPkcuwkA4_42

 

spike

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From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Oct  2 06:45:10 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2023 08:45:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSaTqj8jGi-6ZH34D7-AP5H-0hJbWa8pvJiKWrSSUHBKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSaTqj8jGi-6ZH34D7-AP5H-0hJbWa8pvJiKWrSSUHBKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85b6a4b6-b0b4-fd4f-405a-734affa055f9@swisscows.email>

Hello Adrian,

On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 1:31?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Think about it, if you can no longer trust any video of a politician on
>       any media, how will you make judgments about the world? How will that
>       impact the democratic political process?
> 
> 
> By not imparting sole veracity to videos.
> 
> We are there already.? ?Think about it: what happens, today, when someone posts a deepfake?video about a politician?? Only the most
> gullible (which is, sadly, too many) - who would believe such claims without any evidence, so whether evidence is forged doesn't

I think we are not representative of the typical voter. The fact that
phishing attempts work is an indicator of this. Also, the cheaper and
easier it becomes to make deep fakes, the more of them you will see.

I think this erodes trust, and trust is important in free societies.

Best regards, 
Daniel


> matter to them - fall for it? The rest of us look for, and usually quickly find, clues outside the video as to whether the incident
> shown in the video did or did not happen.
> 
>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  2 15:05:52 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2023 10:05:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <85b6a4b6-b0b4-fd4f-405a-734affa055f9@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSaTqj8jGi-6ZH34D7-AP5H-0hJbWa8pvJiKWrSSUHBKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <85b6a4b6-b0b4-fd4f-405a-734affa055f9@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYxpL4x7HovfzM3Qt_pM0jGF-WM91Bn_s-g97YXpVCe-w@mail.gmail.com>

Remember that there are those people who believe that anything in the
newspaper or on TV is real. ("They can't put in on if it's not true,
right?"  Same people who believe that soap operas are real, and send
presents to people on the show who have birthdays on the show.)

How to get the word out?    bill w

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 1:47?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello Adrian,
>
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 1:31?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       Think about it, if you can no longer trust any video of a
> politician on
> >       any media, how will you make judgments about the world? How will
> that
> >       impact the democratic political process?
> >
> >
> > By not imparting sole veracity to videos.
> >
> > We are there already.   Think about it: what happens, today, when
> someone posts a deepfake video about a politician?  Only the most
> > gullible (which is, sadly, too many) - who would believe such claims
> without any evidence, so whether evidence is forged doesn't
>
> I think we are not representative of the typical voter. The fact that
> phishing attempts work is an indicator of this. Also, the cheaper and
> easier it becomes to make deep fakes, the more of them you will see.
>
> I think this erodes trust, and trust is important in free societies.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> > matter to them - fall for it  The rest of us look for, and usually
> quickly find, clues outside the video as to whether the incident
> > shown in the video did or did not happen.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct  2 17:00:09 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2023 10:00:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] video
In-Reply-To: <85b6a4b6-b0b4-fd4f-405a-734affa055f9@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEawBsUB=G4gryKopMh+Ws=Z4kvdS3ofEZfdUe4C=5hYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <191746dc-b7a5-fe30-5d68-d337fcdc5967@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-onsdYCO9A9JBxxnviDTkU5PzvHa8fg9mS1mqz11Kmu_7+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fe660ca-2194-7757-f34e-59b683e6fead@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNSaTqj8jGi-6ZH34D7-AP5H-0hJbWa8pvJiKWrSSUHBKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <85b6a4b6-b0b4-fd4f-405a-734affa055f9@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQaGFj777Et+DwueMQ4Afhfq90EyA_8TD6KCior3QnW9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 1, 2023, 11:46 PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think we are not representative of the typical voter. The fact that
> phishing attempts work is an indicator of this.


Is their average effectiveness going down over time, as the average person
becomes more likely to know the basics of what we know?

Also, the cheaper and
> easier it becomes to make deep fakes, the more of them you will see.
>

True, though this also means the average person will become more familiar
with the concept.

>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Oct  4 17:47:56 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:47:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun
In-Reply-To: <003a01d9f4da$4c667050$e53350f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <003a01d9f4da$4c667050$e53350f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onva-yR=YDgpT0mC6ZTEqzi9o4iYBofztDgfce2iaAhpig@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks!!  Sooo Coool
I guess the Mormon BYU isn't all bad.

Oh, and here is the link to the actual video, right?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2NqlUWZfo



On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 8:44?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> This hasta be the coolest video I have seen in months.  This guy created
> the world?s smallest? well? sort of a nerf gun? using DNA strands.
>
>
>
> When I see stuff like this, it causes me to realize that stuff like
> creating something like an MBrain using nodes possibly constructed of DNA
> strands is a possibility.
>
>
>
> Check it out, this guy is a kick.  I have been a fan of his for years.
> Keith check it out:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=world%27s+smallest+nerf+gun&sca_esv=569927123&source=hp&ei=iygaZcafMaHAkPIP1PyUyAk&iflsig=AO6bgOgAAAAAZRo2mydRxZ3MOSbEy5JYfpfQy-it9XJC&oq=world%27s+smallest+nerf+gun&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6Ihl3b3JsZCdzIHNtYWxsZXN0IG5lcmYgZ3VuKgIIADILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwEyBBAAGAMyBRAAGIAEMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYigUYhgMyCBAAGIoFGIYDSJ5QUABY5jtwAHgAkAEAmAF7oAHYD6oBBDIxLjS4AQHIAQD4AQHCAhEQLhiABBixAxiDARjHARjRA8ICCxAuGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIFEC4YgATCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGMkDwgIQEAAYgAQYsQMYgwEYsQMYCsICDRAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGArCAggQABiABBjJA8ICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMYgwHCAggQLhiABBixA8ICCxAAGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIIEAAYigUYsQPCAggQLhiABBjlBA&sclient=gws-wiz#kpvalbx=_mygaZeTHIdKp0PEPkcuwkA4_42
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct  4 18:16:36 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 11:16:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onva-yR=YDgpT0mC6ZTEqzi9o4iYBofztDgfce2iaAhpig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d9f4da$4c667050$e53350f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onva-yR=YDgpT0mC6ZTEqzi9o4iYBofztDgfce2iaAhpig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011c01d9f6ee$ea01b4d0$be051e70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun

 

 

Thanks!!  Sooo Coool

I guess the Mormon BYU isn't all bad.

 

Oh, and here is the link to the actual video, right?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2NqlUWZfo

 

 

 

 

Cool thx Brent.

 

Here?s a fun aside for ya: Mark Rober is perhaps the most effective ambassador for BYU today, more than the ?elders? on their bicycles.  His videos demonstrate he is a genius at mechanical design and creative problem solving.  He has skerjillions of followers on YouTube and has spawned untold numbers of young people wanting to study engineering.  If you are wanting to have a little fun, view the evolution of his glitter-bomb notion, or the stuff he did with the Indian phone-fraud company, infiltrating it with a package of roaches and so forth.  This charismatic young man has done more to promote BYU than BYU has in its entire history.

 

spike 

 

 

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Oct  4 19:53:06 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 13:53:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun
In-Reply-To: <011c01d9f6ee$ea01b4d0$be051e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <003a01d9f4da$4c667050$e53350f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onva-yR=YDgpT0mC6ZTEqzi9o4iYBofztDgfce2iaAhpig@mail.gmail.com>
 <011c01d9f6ee$ea01b4d0$be051e70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvstxq93rsjuRCvGxgsLmRHhYkSLvZ4f00t7i+Q6Dr3fg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh yea.  Big fan of the glitter bomb stuff he does!!!

Not aware of the Indian roach stuff, I need to check that out.



On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 12:16?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks!!  Sooo Coool
>
> I guess the Mormon BYU isn't all bad.
>
>
>
> Oh, and here is the link to the actual video, right?:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2NqlUWZfo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cool thx Brent.
>
>
>
> Here?s a fun aside for ya: Mark Rober is perhaps the most effective
> ambassador for BYU today, more than the ?elders? on their bicycles.  His
> videos demonstrate he is a genius at mechanical design and creative problem
> solving.  He has skerjillions of followers on YouTube and has spawned
> untold numbers of young people wanting to study engineering.  If you are
> wanting to have a little fun, view the evolution of his glitter-bomb
> notion, or the stuff he did with the Indian phone-fraud company,
> infiltrating it with a package of roaches and so forth.  This charismatic
> young man has done more to promote BYU than BYU has in its entire history.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Wed Oct  4 20:00:51 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 14:00:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>

oh, yes!!
It is all about flipping things upside down from top down hierarchy (only
about what the dude at the top wants)
to being abou what everyone at the bottom wants.

And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.

And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom
a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus so things can
scale.
Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will just
happen.
Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything
done.








On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last
> politician."? ;)
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
> entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
> >
> > bill w
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Wed Oct  4 20:18:19 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 16:18:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FE75D7CC-2E70-4384-830F-05A342A2157D@gmail.com>

> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus so things can scale.
> Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will just happen.
> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything done.

How do you propose to solve the issue of tyranny by the majority?

> On Oct 4, 2023, at 4:00 PM, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> oh, yes!!
> It is all about flipping things upside down from top down hierarchy (only about what the dude at the top wants)
> to being abou what everyone at the bottom wants.
> 
> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.
> 
> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus so things can scale.
> Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will just happen.
> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last 
> politician."? ;)
> 
> Best regards,
> Daniel
> 
> 
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> 
> > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
> > 
> > bill w
> > 
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct  4 20:40:50 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 13:40:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvstxq93rsjuRCvGxgsLmRHhYkSLvZ4f00t7i+Q6Dr3fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003a01d9f4da$4c667050$e53350f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onva-yR=YDgpT0mC6ZTEqzi9o4iYBofztDgfce2iaAhpig@mail.gmail.com>
 <011c01d9f6ee$ea01b4d0$be051e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvstxq93rsjuRCvGxgsLmRHhYkSLvZ4f00t7i+Q6Dr3fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01aa01d9f703$10c2ba60$32482f20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] world's smallest nerf gun

 

 

>?Oh yea.  Big fan of the glitter bomb stuff he does!!!

 

>?Not aware of the Indian roach stuff, I need to check that out?

 

 

 

 

Regarding Indian roach stuff: somehow Rober figured out the location of a phone-scam sweatshop in India.  He got an Indian guy in cahoots, who managed to get hired there to scam Yanks out of their money.  He did the kind of stuff I would do if I had Mark?s brains: he left behind a bottle of Viagra in the restroom with the big boss? name on it, brought in a time bomb which would open at a certain time and release hundreds of cockroaches, hacked the phone system and video system to watch and listen, figured out the identities of several of the phone grunts, etc.  The Indian authorities managed to shut the place down, but of course most of the participants got away and are likely scamming Yanks again now.

 

I think Rober lives around here somewhere.  He planted his glitter bombs in San Francisco.

 

I would offer to take him to lunch or dinner at the establishment of his choice if he would go.  He has inspired a generation of engineers and (I hope) alerted a generation to phone scams.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From efc at swisscows.email  Wed Oct  4 21:40:45 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 23:40:45 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>

True. ;)

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:

> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.

Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
will.

When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
of the following techniques:

1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do). 
2. Incorporating yourself. 
3. Find good lawyers or read the law book yourself to use the system
against itself, and to make it work for you.

But voting... I think I'm done with that game.

Best regards, 
Daniel


> 
> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus
> so things can scale.
> Once you find enough? people that want the same thing you do, it will just happen.
> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last
>       politician."? ;)
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
>
>       On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.??Diderot
>       >
>       > bill w
>       >
>       >_______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 08:23:18 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 10:23:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] New book by Robert Charles Wilsom, + Tipler
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfwh5R0KtXzEbAZoUeCpDda7VvmgGoae3GodfpO6PiKcA@mail.gmail.com>

Review: Owning the Unknown, by Robert Charles Wilson. Also,
determinism and free will in Frank Tipler's Omega Point theory.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/review-owning-the-unknown-by-robert

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct  5 15:36:04 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 08:36:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] teslas can tow
Message-ID: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>

 

I had heard that Tesla Y models can tow stuff, but I had never actually seen
it.  Well, now I have:

 



 

This is a fiberglass hull inboard with a 25 horse outboard troller on a
single axle, so about 1000 kg, maybe 1200-ish.  It is nowhere near a lake,
so this Muskmobile has hauled the rig a pretty good distance by now, or will
before it launches.

 

This is a model Y, marketed as a manly tow vehicle.  Now I believe:

 

 



 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 15:50:27 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 08:50:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] teslas can tow
In-Reply-To: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQtmWNPC_wE3F6qSf_7B6ncKZhG0SBLYMr1zU1L1Skg3g@mail.gmail.com>

https://insideevs.com/news/689853/tesla-cybertruck-towing-spacex-rocket-engine-video/

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 8:38?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> I had heard that Tesla Y models can tow stuff, but I had never actually
> seen it.  Well, now I have:
>
>
>
>
>
> This is a fiberglass hull inboard with a 25 horse outboard troller on a
> single axle, so about 1000 kg, maybe 1200-ish.  It is nowhere near a lake,
> so this Muskmobile has hauled the rig a pretty good distance by now, or
> will before it launches.
>
>
>
> This is a model Y, marketed as a manly tow vehicle.  Now I believe:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From john at ziaspace.com  Thu Oct  5 16:11:37 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 16:11:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] teslas can tow
In-Reply-To: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <4458de67-4114-6d49-6fc8-d9b079fc4d5f@newbunny.zia.io>

> This is a model Y, marketed as a manly tow vehicle.? Now I believe:

Anything can tow, so long as the automakers don't make ridiculous design 
decisions :)

https://www.klos.com/~john/chevette.jpg

John

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct  5 17:04:34 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 10:04:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] teslas can tow
In-Reply-To: <4458de67-4114-6d49-6fc8-d9b079fc4d5f@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
 <4458de67-4114-6d49-6fc8-d9b079fc4d5f@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <002b01d9f7ae$045b1af0$0d1150d0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat

Cc: John Klos <john at ziaspace.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] teslas can tow

>>... This is a model Y, marketed as a manly tow vehicle.? Now I believe:

>...Anything can tow, so long as the automakers don't make ridiculous design
decisions :)

>...https://www.klos.com/~john/chevette.jpg

>...John


Ah, the T-body chevette, OK, you win John.  {8^D

It was the lowest sticker price American made car in my misspent youth, with
its pow... its adeq... em... its engine, displacing a whop... a modes...
well... its pathetic paltry 1500 cc, smaller than many modern motorcycles,
it was one of the most common vehicles found in college parking lots.  

The embarrassing conveyances were found in college parking lots with
sun-rotted tires several years after their owners had graduated, removed the
plates and took a taxi to the local car dealer to purchase an actual car
with a dignified number of cylinders, but still.  

Many of us drove the little contraptions, or rode in them with friends out
of desperate economic need, because of an embarrassing temporary poverty
that had befallen our families for a few decades.  But that was then, and
besides I was one of the lucky ones who bought a 600 dollar worn-out '66
model Ford F-100.

The chevette had a bulletproof engine.  Assuming of course we are talking
about nerf bullets.  It would stand up to those.  Actual driving however...
it was a gamble.  Some kept running.  They kept running as the rest of the
worker-strike assembly lines of the 1970s did not.  They kept running as the
actual body of the car rusted through.  Apparently Detroit forgot how to
paint a car at some point in those benighted years.

But I digress cheerfully.  The Chevette brings back fond memories of bad
times spent with mostly happy teenagers.  Life sucked but we had fun anyway.
We were too stupid to realize it I suppose.

John thanks for the photo.  It brightened my day.

spike







From gadersd at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 17:14:45 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 13:14:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>

> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
> will.
> 
> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
> of the following techniques:
> 
> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do). 2. Incorporating yourself. 3. Find good lawyers or read the law book yourself to use the system
> against itself, and to make it work for you.

I?ve never held much faith in democracy or majority consensus. The majority can be wrong and often is. I agree that ultimately the best way to ensure personal autonomy may be to simply move to a territory that better aligns with one?s interests. I hope the variability of laws and governments remains to permit this option. I dread a future in which centralization has the whole of humanity trapped within a singular regime. I am not sure how AI will change the competitive landscape. Some even trust that a centralized super intelligence will ensure humanity?s wellbeing. Heaven or hell, I don't think there is much potential for middle ground in the future.

> On Oct 4, 2023, at 5:40 PM, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> True. ;)
> 
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:
> 
>> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.
> 
> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
> will.
> 
> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
> of the following techniques:
> 
> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do). 2. Incorporating yourself. 3. Find good lawyers or read the law book yourself to use the system
> against itself, and to make it work for you.
> 
> But voting... I think I'm done with that game.
> 
> Best regards, Daniel
> 
> 
>> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus
>> so things can scale.
>> Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will just happen.
>> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything done.
>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>      Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last
>>      politician."? ;)
>> 
>>      Best regards,
>>      Daniel
>> 
>>      On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>> 
>>      > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
>>      >
>>      > bill w
>>      >
>>      >_______________________________________________
>>      extropy-chat mailing list
>>      extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>      http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 17:18:23 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 12:18:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbwbk+a1ZhT7CKd+4FsTAjM7FJDdiYCJe-OzCzP+D6VOw@mail.gmail.com>

I am a little lost here- what is the 'corona' that is being referred to?
 bill w

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 4:42?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> True. ;)
>
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:
>
> > And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.
>
> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
> will.
>
> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
> of the following techniques:
>
> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do).
> 2. Incorporating yourself.
> 3. Find good lawyers or read the law book yourself to use the system
> against itself, and to make it work for you.
>
> But voting... I think I'm done with that game.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> >
> > And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the
> bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus
> > so things can scale.
> > Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will
> just happen.
> > Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting
> anything done.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the
> last
> >       politician."? ;)
> >
> >       Best regards,
> >       Daniel
> >
> >
> >       On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >       > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with
> the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
> >       >
> >       > bill w
> >       >
> >       >_______________________________________________
> >       extropy-chat mailing list
> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct  5 17:26:40 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 10:26:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01d9f7b1$1aeaae40$50c00ac0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
...

>...I?ve never held much faith in democracy or majority consensus. The majority can be wrong and often is. I agree that ultimately the best way to ensure personal autonomy may be to simply move to a territory that better aligns with one?s interests. I hope the variability of laws and governments remains to permit this option. I dread a future in which centralization has the whole of humanity trapped within a singular regime. I am not sure how AI will change the competitive landscape. Some even trust that a centralized super intelligence will ensure humanity?s wellbeing. Heaven or hell, I don't think there is much potential for middle ground in the future...  Gadersd


Thanks for that Gadersd.  You think like the founding non-birthing parents of the USA.  That's what they had in mind when the created a republic consisting of mostly-autonomous democracies, under a framework of rights which apply to all USA citizens, united in a common cause with a common defense system.

spike









From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 17:32:58 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 10:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbwbk+a1ZhT7CKd+4FsTAjM7FJDdiYCJe-OzCzP+D6VOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbwbk+a1ZhT7CKd+4FsTAjM7FJDdiYCJe-OzCzP+D6VOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR9O_sz+6z52VY-5Vy-V2cEigke5Gvk+1GJ3riignSPMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 10:20?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I am a little lost here- what is the 'corona' that is being referred to?
>  bill w
>

I am fairly certain he meant the US government (federal, state, and local)
reactions to the COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic.
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From john at ziaspace.com  Thu Oct  5 20:29:54 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:29:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] teslas can tow
In-Reply-To: <002b01d9f7ae$045b1af0$0d1150d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
 <4458de67-4114-6d49-6fc8-d9b079fc4d5f@newbunny.zia.io>
 <002b01d9f7ae$045b1af0$0d1150d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <74d7deab-ba81-bcb8-0ad4-a68e99a0aa37@newbunny.zia.io>

> But I digress cheerfully.  The Chevette brings back fond memories of bad
> times spent with mostly happy teenagers.  Life sucked but we had fun anyway.
> We were too stupid to realize it I suppose.
>
> John thanks for the photo.  It brightened my day.

:D

You know, I still have mine. That's the one in the photo. I'm in the 
process of rebuilding the engine, which I suppose was finally due
after 780,000 miles. I should be driving it from New York to California in 
the next week or two.

After seeing stories like these:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

I am more convinced than ever that, even though I'm a computer geek, I do 
not want anything computer controlled, or even anything where
electronics are used where mechanical can suffice. There is literally not 
a single integrated circuit anywhere in my Chevette. If the
apocalypse came tomorrow and all electronics stopped working forever, I 
could push start my car and drive it.

I'm all for technology, but when it's used to market things to people to 
make money instead of making things better, I take exception. The
recent news stories about subscription-based "features" illustrate the 
point well.

My Chevette represented freedom when I was a teenager in a very literal 
sense: I could get in it and go whenever and wherever I want. I
never dreamed back then that it'd come to represent a different kind of 
freedom, where I am not at the mercy of for-profit mega
corporations who withhold information and access in an attempt to extract 
as much money as they can.

It's worth remembering this when it comes to other technology.

Oh - plus the fact that my Chevette gets 40 to 50 miles to the gallon 
makes me constantly wonder why it has taken decades to get back to
that kind of efficiency, and why we're not at 100 miles to the gallon now. 
Oh, right - people want to make money.

John

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 21:42:06 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 15:42:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Youtube of my Oxford Presentation.
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone is interested, they now have the YouTube recordings of our talks
from the recent Mathematical Models of Consciousness conference iat
Oxford.  Here is the link to my 5 minute talk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGfsRSx9_iE

If you think there is any value, some likes would be nice.

Thanks
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct  5 21:45:38 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 14:45:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] teslas can tow
In-Reply-To: <74d7deab-ba81-bcb8-0ad4-a68e99a0aa37@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <002101d9f7a1$a7ad2d40$f70787c0$@rainier66.com>
 <4458de67-4114-6d49-6fc8-d9b079fc4d5f@newbunny.zia.io>
 <002b01d9f7ae$045b1af0$0d1150d0$@rainier66.com>
 <74d7deab-ba81-bcb8-0ad4-a68e99a0aa37@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <003c01d9f7d5$482d18b0$d8874a10$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] teslas can tow

> But I digress cheerfully.  The Chevette brings back fond memories of 
> bad times spent with mostly happy teenagers.  Life sucked but we had fun
anyway.
> We were too stupid to realize it I suppose.
>
> John thanks for the photo.  It brightened my day.

:D

>...You know, I still have mine. That's the one in the photo. I'm in the
process of rebuilding the engine, which I suppose was finally due after
780,000 miles. I should be driving it from New York to California in the
next week or two...

780k!  On a Chevette!  Astonishing!




>...After seeing stories like these:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

I could conclude that the Singularity really is coming, and it really does
want to kill us.


>...I am more convinced than ever that, even though I'm a computer geek, I
do not want anything computer controlled, or even anything where electronics
are used where mechanical can suffice. There is literally not a single
integrated circuit anywhere in my Chevette. If the apocalypse came tomorrow
and all electronics stopped working forever, I could push start my car and
drive it...

Unless you are very close to the EMP, good chance your starter motor would
survive, so you wouldn't even need to push it.  Your Chevette came in just
under 2000 pounds, so even if you did need to push it, you and one other lad
should be sufficient.

>... My Chevette represented freedom when I was a teenager in a very literal
sense: I could get in it and go whenever and wherever I want. I never
dreamed back then that it'd come to represent a different kind of freedom,
where I am not at the mercy of for-profit mega corporations who withhold
information and access in an attempt to extract as much money as they can.

>...It's worth remembering this when it comes to other technology...

Roger that.  My two cars are age 16 and 21 years.


>...Oh - plus the fact that my Chevette gets 40 to 50 miles to the gallon
makes me constantly wonder why it has taken decades to get back to that kind
of efficiency, and why we're not at 100 miles to the gallon now. 
Oh, right - people want to make money.

John
_______________________________________________


Eh that's part of it John.  The pre-electronics Chevette didn't have much on
the way of a catalytic converter.  That helps.  It has no airbags and
doesn't have the crumple zone chassis, which saves weight (at the cost of
your legs if you smack into something (not meant as a criticism (I ride
motorcycles.)))  Those cars didn't so much have engines as four squirrels
running on an exercise wheel.  The modest power output forced the driver to
maintain reasonable speed, which saves fuel.  It keeps the engine near its
peak efficiency RPM band when going on the freeway, which is really where it
gets its efficiency.  People today will not buy a car that takes 20 seconds
to get to 60 mph.

My friend's Chevette was a 76 model.  I was the only one who was good at
tweaking a carburetor and setting ignition points, two tasks I can still do
to this day.  I was also one who was reluctant to give away those venerable
old technologies, but for a different reason: I had older cars given to me
because they still had carbs and points.  People knew I was one to tinker
with old stuff like that.

In any case John, it warms my cardiocockles to hear a computer expert make
the comments you posted.  We old-time mechanical engineers have that
attitude: newer is not necessarily better, just newer.  If it ain't broke,
don't fix it, etc.  In some cases, older really is better.

spike



From jasonresch at gmail.com  Thu Oct  5 21:58:28 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 17:58:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] Youtube of my Oxford Presentation.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUh+YbpBrnEQWjtqT0XE3ZVoG_V9gENO5iUuZRxCT6Do2A@mail.gmail.com>

Nice job!

Jason

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023, 5:42 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> If anyone is interested, they now have the YouTube recordings of our talks
> from the recent Mathematical Models of Consciousness conference iat
> Oxford.  Here is the link to my 5 minute talk.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGfsRSx9_iE
>
> If you think there is any value, some likes would be nice.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Important Questions" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to the-important-questions+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 03:10:55 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 21:10:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] Youtube of my Oxford Presentation.
In-Reply-To: <6fbf1a64-2203-8807-08ef-2e351fe52549@gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6fbf1a64-2203-8807-08ef-2e351fe52549@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsu+ft6v=iz9K1ji8YB2L4_M9bRE9b=PPjrUtLubTW3jA@mail.gmail.com>

There was only one hour for 6 people to give their 5 minute "lighting
round" talks, so no time for questions for the lighting round speakers.
But we did have lots of time for discussions during the rest of the week.
Mark Ebner's talk was "A Mathematical Model of the Quale Color" and he is a
Naive Realist like Michale Tye who think redness is a property of those
flowers, so our conversations started on day one, and you can see me
acknowledge his disagreement with what I was saying in my talk when he, and
a few others raised their hands indicating disagreement.  I just wish I
could get ANY naive realist to support a competitor camp to Representational
Qualia Theory
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/6-Representational-Qualia?filter=50&score=0&algo=blind_popularity&asof=default&canon=1>
.
But at least one speaker did come up to me the next day and say mine was
the best talk of the entire conference, so that made me feel good.  I'm
sure he is not a Naive Realist.








On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 7:36?PM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com> wrote:

> Great Brent! How was your presentation received? Was there a question
> and answer session after it?
>
> -gts
>
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 3:42?PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> If anyone is interested, they now have the YouTube recordings of our
>> talks from the recent Mathematical Models of Consciousness conference iat
>> Oxford.  Here is the link to my 5 minute talk.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGfsRSx9_iE
>>
>> If you think there is any value, some likes would be nice.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "The Important Questions" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to the-important-questions+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/the-important-questions/6fbf1a64-2203-8807-08ef-2e351fe52549%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
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>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct  6 06:22:05 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 08:22:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR9O_sz+6z52VY-5Vy-V2cEigke5Gvk+1GJ3riignSPMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbwbk+a1ZhT7CKd+4FsTAjM7FJDdiYCJe-OzCzP+D6VOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9O_sz+6z52VY-5Vy-V2cEigke5Gvk+1GJ3riignSPMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7585b63f-9cda-f2ba-c4d2-c8fcd27a5edf@swisscows.email>

Sorry for being unclear. Yes, Adrian, you are correct, but I was not only 
referring to the US, but to the response in most democracies in general.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 10:20?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       I am a little lost here- what is the 'corona' that is being referred to?? ?bill w
> 
> 
> I am fairly certain he meant the US government (federal, state, and local) reactions to the COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic.
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct  6 06:30:45 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 08:30:45 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Youtube of my Oxford Presentation.
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6b159946-f76d-01cd-ecbc-0dc143158080@swisscows.email>

Great job Brent! Really fun to watch you live on video and to distill the
mailinglist discussions into a 5 minute presentation. Although I did miss 
the "red herring" theory. ;)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:

> 
> If anyone is interested, they now have the YouTube recordings of our talks from the recent Mathematical Models of
> Consciousness?conference?iat Oxford.? Here is the link to my 5 minute talk.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGfsRSx9_iE
> 
> If you think there is any value, some likes would be nice.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAK7-onvbog5tPfrimaf5AhTSRzoC1zmqf_5A_8CPCupjCskuJA%40mail.gmail.com.
> 
>

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct  6 11:03:06 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 13:03:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <003e01d9f7b1$1aeaae40$50c00ac0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <003e01d9f7b1$1aeaae40$50c00ac0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <1cd2068a-c212-e69f-0bdc-084892577f2b@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> Thanks for that Gadersd.  You think like the founding non-birthing
> parents of the USA.  That's what they had in mind when the created a
> republic consisting of mostly-autonomous democracies, under a
> framework of rights which apply to all USA citizens, united in a
> common cause with a common defense system.

What do you think could have been done, in retrospect, to further
enhance the protection of the constitution?

It seems like it worked well in the beginning, but today, with all
amendments it does seem like it is not as effective at limiting
government any longer.

Best regards, 
Daniel


>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct  6 11:10:28 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 13:10:28 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>

Hello Gadersd,

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:

> laws and governments remains to permit this option. I dread a future
> in which centralization has the whole of humanity trapped within a
> singular regime. I am not sure how AI will change the competitive

I agree. This is one of my biggest fears as well. If we look at humanity
at large, it does look as if there is a historical trend of ever greater
consolidation and centralization. From families on the savannah, to
tribes, to cities, to city states, to many countries and kingdoms and
today to the 200:ish countries we have.

If the trend continues, and once there is a world government in place,
there will be no place to run in case of corruption or malfunctioning of
the system.

Makes one wonder if that in turn, will generate a future like in The
Expanse or The moon is a harsh mistress, where we expand outwards away
from the centralized tyrrany and if the colonies will once again break
free, to then start the cycle of centralization again?

Or will we end up in a utopian Star trek universe where all is good and
everything is post scarcity, despite the centralized governing function?

Best regards, 
Daniel



>
>> On Oct 4, 2023, at 5:40 PM, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> True. ;)
>> 
>> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:
>> 
>>> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.
>> 
>> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
>> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
>> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
>> will.
>> 
>> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
>> of the following techniques:
>> 
>> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do). 2. Incorporating yourself. 3. Find good lawyers or read the law book yourself to use the system
>> against itself, and to make it work for you.
>> 
>> But voting... I think I'm done with that game.
>> 
>> Best regards, Daniel
>> 
>> 
>>> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus
>>> so things can scale.
>>> Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will just happen.
>>> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything done.
>>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>      Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last
>>>      politician."? ;)
>>>
>>>      Best regards,
>>>      Daniel
>>>
>>>      On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>
>>>      > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
>>>      >
>>>      > bill w
>>>      >
>>>      >_______________________________________________
>>>      extropy-chat mailing list
>>>      extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>      http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct  6 12:38:49 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 14:38:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Data voids and information pollution?
Message-ID: <dd05bc59-2ce1-3a17-d86f-eb1c412da979@swisscows.email>

Hello guys,

I thought you might find this interesting.

https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-chatbot-hallucinations-are-poisoning-web-search/

Could we see a fracturing of the web into closed, for profit, information 
silos with "guaranteed" information value, and the common web of the non-payers, 
implode under the weight of AI-generated inaccurate content?

Best regards,
Daniel


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 13:44:12 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 06:44:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <1cd2068a-c212-e69f-0bdc-084892577f2b@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <003e01d9f7b1$1aeaae40$50c00ac0$@rainier66.com>
 <1cd2068a-c212-e69f-0bdc-084892577f2b@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <006d01d9f85b$321ddab0$96599010$@rainier66.com>

...> On Behalf Of efc--- via extropy-chat

Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

Hello spike,

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>>... Thanks for that Gadersd.  You think like the founding non-birthing 
> parents of the USA.  That's what they had in mind when the created a 
> republic consisting of mostly-autonomous democracies, under a 
> framework of rights which apply to all USA citizens, united in a 
> common cause with a common defense system.

>...What do you think could have been done, in retrospect, to further
enhance the protection of the constitution?

The constitution was specifically written to protect itself.  It works.  If
politicians get outside of their constitutional authority, they no longer
have any legal authority.

>...It seems like it worked well in the beginning, but today, with all
amendments...

There aren't many amendments and there haven't been any in recent years.
The last amendment (27th) to be ratified was proposed in 1789 and was
ratified in 1992.  The one before that was ratified in 1971.

>... it does seem like it is not as effective at limiting government any
longer.

Best regards,
Daniel


Eh, keep watching Daniel.  The USA will soon transition from modern monetary
theory (MMT) to post modern monetary theory (PMMT.)  This will happen not
because we want to but because it will be forced on the USA.  MMT holds that
government debt does not matter.  PMMT is similar to pre-MMT in that it
holds that government debt does matter.

When it finally sinks in to the voters that we must pay for all this,
everything changes.

I expect changes in the immediately foreseeable, as the two major parties in
the USA are pushing forward POTUS candidates who are well-known and both
wildly unpopular.

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 15:08:03 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 10:08:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] groaner of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYAH8Uu3dqM8bnvbdStYr0N-pC-ncXJoQrYGeiic9FOOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Who writes very biting poetry?
(scroll down)








Ogden Gnash

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 15:20:16 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 10:20:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>

I think that whatever the global megacorporations will obey is the
government we will have.  They will do the planning of the economy because
they 'are' the economy.  bill w

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 6:12?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello Gadersd,
>
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > laws and governments remains to permit this option. I dread a future
> > in which centralization has the whole of humanity trapped within a
> > singular regime. I am not sure how AI will change the competitive
>
> I agree. This is one of my biggest fears as well. If we look at humanity
> at large, it does look as if there is a historical trend of ever greater
> consolidation and centralization. From families on the savannah, to
> tribes, to cities, to city states, to many countries and kingdoms and
> today to the 200:ish countries we have.
>
> If the trend continues, and once there is a world government in place,
> there will be no place to run in case of corruption or malfunctioning of
> the system.
>
> Makes one wonder if that in turn, will generate a future like in The
> Expanse or The moon is a harsh mistress, where we expand outwards away
> from the centralized tyrrany and if the colonies will once again break
> free, to then start the cycle of centralization again?
>
> Or will we end up in a utopian Star trek universe where all is good and
> everything is post scarcity, despite the centralized governing function?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
>
> >
> >> On Oct 4, 2023, at 5:40 PM, efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> True. ;)
> >>
> >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:
> >>
> >>> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.
> >>
> >> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
> >> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
> >> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
> >> will.
> >>
> >> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
> >> of the following techniques:
> >>
> >> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do). 2.
> Incorporating yourself. 3. Find good lawyers or read the law book yourself
> to use the system
> >> against itself, and to make it work for you.
> >>
> >> But voting... I think I'm done with that game.
> >>
> >> Best regards, Daniel
> >>
> >>
> >>> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the
> bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and tracking consensus
> >>> so things can scale.
> >>> Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do, it will
> just happen.
> >>> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting
> anything done.
> >>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>      Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the
> last
> >>>      politician."? ;)
> >>>
> >>>      Best regards,
> >>>      Daniel
> >>>
> >>>      On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>>
> >>>      > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with
> the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
> >>>      >
> >>>      > bill w
> >>>      >
> >>>      >_______________________________________________
> >>>      extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>      extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>      http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct  6 15:45:54 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 17:45:54 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7748185c-39a8-2ff1-fbaf-71e05edd97a1@swisscows.email>

Hello Bill,

Yes, perhaps the country or nation as the unit of organization is fading 
away, and in the future the fundamental unit will be the corporation. No 
more citizens, but associates, share holders and employees. No more 
presidents and parliaments, but CEO:s and share holders meetings.

Then the mergers will happen, and we'll have the Wayland corporation and 
the Umbrella corporation.

What will be interesting though, is if any of these future 
megacorporations will drop the fig leaf, and rename their purchased 
country of choice in their own image?

Imagine... the country of X will no longer be know as X, but from now on 
will be known as The Umbrella Corporation.

Wouldn't that be a finger in the face of the old countries and old 
politicians?

Well, age old science fiction themes, but still entertaining to think 
about.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 6 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:

> I think that whatever the global megacorporations will obey is the government we will have.? They will do the planning of the economy
> because they 'are' the economy.? bill w
> 
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 6:12?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Hello Gadersd,
>
>       On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>       > laws and governments remains to permit this option. I dread a future
>       > in which centralization has the whole of humanity trapped within a
>       > singular regime. I am not sure how AI will change the competitive
>
>       I agree. This is one of my biggest fears as well. If we look at humanity
>       at large, it does look as if there is a historical trend of ever greater
>       consolidation and centralization. From families on the savannah, to
>       tribes, to cities, to city states, to many countries and kingdoms and
>       today to the 200:ish countries we have.
>
>       If the trend continues, and once there is a world government in place,
>       there will be no place to run in case of corruption or malfunctioning of
>       the system.
>
>       Makes one wonder if that in turn, will generate a future like in The
>       Expanse or The moon is a harsh mistress, where we expand outwards away
>       from the centralized tyrrany and if the colonies will once again break
>       free, to then start the cycle of centralization again?
>
>       Or will we end up in a utopian Star trek universe where all is good and
>       everything is post scarcity, despite the centralized governing function?
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
> 
>
>       >
>       >> On Oct 4, 2023, at 5:40 PM, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >>
>       >> True. ;)
>       >>
>       >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:
>       >>
>       >>> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from politics.
>       >>
>       >> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that made me
>       >> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of running
>       >> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if I ever
>       >> will.
>       >>
>       >> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a proponent
>       >> of the following techniques:
>       >>
>       >> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I do). 2. Incorporating yourself. 3. Find good lawyers or
>       read the law book yourself to use the system
>       >> against itself, and to make it work for you.
>       >>
>       >> But voting... I think I'm done with that game.
>       >>
>       >> Best regards, Daniel
>       >>
>       >>
>       >>> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and
>       tracking consensus
>       >>> so things can scale.
>       >>> Once you find enough? people that want the same thing you do, it will just happen.
>       >>> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of getting anything done.
>       >>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >>>? ? ? Or was it "the last politician strangled with the entrails of the last
>       >>>? ? ? politician."? ;)
>       >>>
>       >>>? ? ? Best regards,
>       >>>? ? ? Daniel
>       >>>
>       >>>? ? ? On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>       >>>
>       >>>? ? ? > ?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
>       >>>? ? ? >
>       >>>? ? ? > bill w
>       >>>? ? ? >
>       >>>? ? ? >_______________________________________________
>       >>>? ? ? extropy-chat mailing list
>       >>>? ? ? extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       >>>? ? ? http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >> _______________________________________________
>       >> extropy-chat mailing list
>       >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>       >
>       >
>       > _______________________________________________
>       > extropy-chat mailing list
>       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 16:09:40 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 09:09:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] groaner of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYAH8Uu3dqM8bnvbdStYr0N-pC-ncXJoQrYGeiic9FOOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYAH8Uu3dqM8bnvbdStYr0N-pC-ncXJoQrYGeiic9FOOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201d9f86f$83427810$89c76830$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 October, 2023 8:08 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] groaner of the day

 

Who writes very biting poetry?

(scroll down)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ogden Gnash

 

bill w

 

 

 

How about Henri Chompin?  And Atukuri Mollar?  

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 16:10:02 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 11:10:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <7748185c-39a8-2ff1-fbaf-71e05edd97a1@swisscows.email>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7748185c-39a8-2ff1-fbaf-71e05edd97a1@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZE=z=2bvppqi5SbfKjjWxPhnvUAK9ONDbtagsLpduidg@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Daniel:  Please refer to Bill W or Bill K instead of just 'Bill'.
Thanks!   bill w

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 10:48?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello Bill,
>
> Yes, perhaps the country or nation as the unit of organization is fading
> away, and in the future the fundamental unit will be the corporation. No
> more citizens, but associates, share holders and employees. No more
> presidents and parliaments, but CEO:s and share holders meetings.
>
> Then the mergers will happen, and we'll have the Wayland corporation and
> the Umbrella corporation.
>
> What will be interesting though, is if any of these future
> megacorporations will drop the fig leaf, and rename their purchased
> country of choice in their own image?
>
> Imagine... the country of X will no longer be know as X, but from now on
> will be known as The Umbrella Corporation.
>
> Wouldn't that be a finger in the face of the old countries and old
> politicians?
>
> Well, age old science fiction themes, but still entertaining to think
> about.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > I think that whatever the global megacorporations will obey is the
> government we will have.  They will do the planning of the economy
> > because they 'are' the economy.  bill w
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 6:12?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       Hello Gadersd,
> >
> >       On Thu, 5 Oct 2023, Gadersd via extropy-chat wrote:
> >
> >       > laws and governments remains to permit this option. I dread a
> future
> >       > in which centralization has the whole of humanity trapped within
> a
> >       > singular regime. I am not sure how AI will change the competitive
> >
> >       I agree. This is one of my biggest fears as well. If we look at
> humanity
> >       at large, it does look as if there is a historical trend of ever
> greater
> >       consolidation and centralization. From families on the savannah, to
> >       tribes, to cities, to city states, to many countries and kingdoms
> and
> >       today to the 200:ish countries we have.
> >
> >       If the trend continues, and once there is a world government in
> place,
> >       there will be no place to run in case of corruption or
> malfunctioning of
> >       the system.
> >
> >       Makes one wonder if that in turn, will generate a future like in
> The
> >       Expanse or The moon is a harsh mistress, where we expand outwards
> away
> >       from the centralized tyrrany and if the colonies will once again
> break
> >       free, to then start the cycle of centralization again?
> >
> >       Or will we end up in a utopian Star trek universe where all is
> good and
> >       everything is post scarcity, despite the centralized governing
> function?
> >
> >       Best regards,
> >       Daniel
> >
> >
> >
> >       >
> >       >> On Oct 4, 2023, at 5:40 PM, efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       >>
> >       >> True. ;)
> >       >>
> >       >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2023, Brent Allsop wrote:
> >       >>
> >       >>> And democracy is the first step, but you still suffer from
> politics.
> >       >>
> >       >> Well, on a more serious note, corona was the final straw that
> made me
> >       >> lose all hope in democracy as a sustainable long term way of
> running
> >       >> society. Haven't bothered to vote since then, and don't know if
> I ever
> >       >> will.
> >       >>
> >       >> When it comes to living life the way I want to live it, I am a
> proponent
> >       >> of the following techniques:
> >       >>
> >       >> 1. Voting with your feet (this is the most amount of voting I
> do). 2. Incorporating yourself. 3. Find good lawyers or
> >       read the law book yourself to use the system
> >       >> against itself, and to make it work for you.
> >       >>
> >       >> But voting... I think I'm done with that game.
> >       >>
> >       >> Best regards, Daniel
> >       >>
> >       >>
> >       >>> And of course the solution to that is giving every lost soul
> at the bottom a voice (no censoring) and building and
> >       tracking consensus
> >       >>> so things can scale.
> >       >>> Once you find enough  people that want the same thing you do,
> it will just happen.
> >       >>> Building and tracking consensus is the only hard part of
> getting anything done.
> >       >>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 2:17?PM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >       >>>      Or was it "the last politician strangled with the
> entrails of the last
> >       >>>      politician."? ;)
> >       >>>
> >       >>>      Best regards,
> >       >>>      Daniel
> >       >>>
> >       >>>      On Sun, 1 Oct 2023, William Flynn Wallace via
> extropy-chat wrote:
> >       >>>
> >       >>>      > ?Man will never be free until the last king is
> strangled with the entrails of the last priest.? Diderot
> >       >>>      >
> >       >>>      > bill w
> >       >>>      >
> >       >>>      >_______________________________________________
> >       >>>      extropy-chat mailing list
> >       >>>      extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       >>>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >       >> _______________________________________________
> >       >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >       >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >       >
> >       >
> >       > _______________________________________________
> >       > extropy-chat mailing list
> >       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat_______________________________________________
> >       extropy-chat mailing list
> >       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 16:38:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 09:38:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] groaner of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYAH8Uu3dqM8bnvbdStYr0N-pC-ncXJoQrYGeiic9FOOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYAH8Uu3dqM8bnvbdStYr0N-pC-ncXJoQrYGeiic9FOOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701d9f873$94bd4620$be37d260$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 October, 2023 8:08 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] groaner of the day

 

Who writes very biting poetry?

(scroll down)

 

 

 

 

Kalman Tooth, the poet from Hungry?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ogden Gnash

 

bill w

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 16:38:50 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 11:38:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] poet
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZkSj07fu5DMFcSG6CE44tPsTobr8-Gm7wdL-bkQynQzA@mail.gmail.com>

How about a poet for a man after his climax?  scroll down






John Done
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 16:40:20 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 09:40:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 October, 2023 8:20 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

 

>?I think that whatever the global megacorporations will obey is the government we will have.  They will do the planning of the economy because they 'are' the economy.  bill w

 

 

We are they.  The megacorps respond to market forces.  Billw, may it be so sir.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 16:45:51 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 11:45:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>

OK  what's more important than money, Spike?   bill w

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:42?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, 6 October, 2023 8:20 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day
>
>
>
> >?I think that whatever the global megacorporations will obey is the
> government we will have.  They will do the planning of the economy because
> they 'are' the economy.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> We are they.  The megacorps respond to market forces.  Billw, may it be so
> sir.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 16:48:28 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 09:48:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] poet
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZkSj07fu5DMFcSG6CE44tPsTobr8-Gm7wdL-bkQynQzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZkSj07fu5DMFcSG6CE44tPsTobr8-Gm7wdL-bkQynQzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008f01d9f874$ef258a90$cd709fb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 October, 2023 9:39 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] poet

 

How about a poet for a man after his climax?  scroll down

 

 

 

 

 

 

John Done

 

 

 

 

 

 

The German poet Peter Limpe?

 

He was just with his girlfriend, the former US poet laureate Maxine Kumin.

 

?heeeeeeeeheheheheheheheeeeeeheheheeeee?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 16:54:29 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 09:54:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601d9f875$c62536d0$526fa470$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

 

>?OK  what's more important than money, Spike?   bill w

 

Hmmmm?

 

Hmmm?I am stumped.  The poet riddles were easier.  

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 17:39:14 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 10:39:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
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 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR+nAazL70YY+1sJ8oJoLkAmJv_3Ejbjh0kQfhUUHTrJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 9:47?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> OK  what's more important than money, Spike?   bill w
>

I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably
Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 17:51:01 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 10:51:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR+nAazL70YY+1sJ8oJoLkAmJv_3Ejbjh0kQfhUUHTrJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <00d501d9f87d$ac03a220$040ae660$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Cc: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

 

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 9:47?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?OK  what's more important than money, Spike?   bill w

 

>?I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably Spike is indeed more important than money. ;) 

 

 

The term ?money? is undefined.  It must come in the context of whose money.  I consider spike more important than your money.  And from Adrian?s POV, I am less important than Adrian?s money.  The tough question is: from spike?s POV, is spike more important than spike?s money?

 

Billw, can we have some more poet riddles?  Those are easier than figuring out if spike is more important than spike?s money.

 

spike

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From john at ziaspace.com  Fri Oct  6 17:59:09 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 17:59:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR+nAazL70YY+1sJ8oJoLkAmJv_3Ejbjh0kQfhUUHTrJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1034dbe1-2169-91b0-3c7a-cb5340a15cf4@newbunny.zia.io>

> I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably 
> Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)

All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)

John

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 18:14:52 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 19:14:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <1034dbe1-2169-91b0-3c7a-cb5340a15cf4@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armg8cNo9CAeLNo9HoRkDNgAW7c3F37Ogf97sfVCDcpRQyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 19:01, John Klos via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably
> > Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)
>
> All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)
>
> John
> _______________________________________________


Yea, even if you cloned 100 little Spikelets (he's probably considering it).  :)
Their environment, education, etc. would be so different that they
would not turn out like the original Spike.
Best bet is to use AI to create a Spikebot and let it loose in the
world to create havoc. :)

BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 18:27:06 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 11:27:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg8cNo9CAeLNo9HoRkDNgAW7c3F37Ogf97sfVCDcpRQyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ7212-gj37KfF6+srmbCRACiOqgBQ6oOnSSqOh2GQD0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 19:01, John Klos via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably
> > > Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)
> >
> > All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)
> >
> > John
>
> Yea, even if you cloned 100 little Spikelets (he's probably considering
> it).  :)
> Their environment, education, etc. would be so different that they
> would not turn out like the original Spike.
> Best bet is to use AI to create a Spikebot and let it loose in the
> world to create havoc. :)
>

One could try to find a way to upload Spike's mind, so as to make copies of
it.  Making bodies for those Spikes to inhabit would presumably be
relatively easier, once the uploading is done.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 19:39:43 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 12:39:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <1034dbe1-2169-91b0-3c7a-cb5340a15cf4@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002f01d9f88c$dbaa20d0$92fe6270$@rainier66.com>

...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat
Cc: John Klos <john at ziaspace.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

>>... I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, 
> presumably Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)

>...All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)

John
_______________________________________________


John, you are too kind sir, however you still didn't specify whose money.

My money is obviously a miniscule epsilon-scale fraction of all the money in
the world, yet I often buy myself.

Regarding the rest of the money, I don't own that, so the question itself is
unanswerable.

We aughta try it however: given all the money in the world I bet we could
clone me and given a few months, teach me all the stuff I knew.

Biology hipsters, where are we these days in cloning technology?  I lost
track after Dolly the sheep.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 19:45:10 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 12:45:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg8cNo9CAeLNo9HoRkDNgAW7c3F37Ogf97sfVCDcpRQyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <003401d9f88d$9e7efd60$db7cf820$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 October, 2023 11:15 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 19:01, John Klos via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, 
> > presumably Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)
>
> All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)
>
> John
> _______________________________________________


>...Yea, even if you cloned 100 little Spikelets (he's probably considering
it).  :)

Dang I wrote the previous before reading this.  Ja the thought occurred to
me.

>... Their environment, education, etc. would be so different that they
would not turn out like the original Spike...

OK but if we did it, I could teach them myself.  Then they would know about
all the quirky stuff that makes me me.

>...Best bet is to use AI to create a Spikebot and let it loose in the world
to create havoc. :)

BillK
_______________________________________________


BillK, that has been on my mind a lot.  I don't understand all the mechanics
of large language models, but some parts of it make a lotta sense.  Going
the software route is our best bet methinks.  I will be honest with you: I
don't want a hundred clones, I don't even want one.

I will offer this: I prayed to Evolution to make me a better man.

It gave me my son.  Evolution spoke to me.  It said: Here ya go spike,
here's a better man for yas.

It surprised me that Evolution would speak to me in a voice that sounded so
much like me, even using my own figures of speech.

I have been thinking hard about creating a software "clone" of myself.  I
know of the voice cloning software, now we need the LLMs to get involved.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 19:50:04 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 12:50:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ7212-gj37KfF6+srmbCRACiOqgBQ6oOnSSqOh2GQD0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <003501d9f88e$4d8c8700$e8a59500$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, 6 October, 2023 11:27 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

 

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 19:01, John Klos via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:
>
> > I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably
> > Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)
>
> All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)
>
> John

Yea, even if you cloned 100 little Spikelets (he's probably considering it).  :)
Their environment, education, etc. would be so different that they
would not turn out like the original Spike.
Best bet is to use AI to create a Spikebot and let it loose in the
world to create havoc. :)

 

>?One could try to find a way to upload Spike's mind, so as to make copies of it.  Making bodies for those Spikes to inhabit would presumably be relatively easier, once the uploading is done?

 

 

 

Dang I need to read everything before I post anything.

 

If we had a way to upload ourselves, you know what would happen: we would replicate like? an uploaded human and have a friendly Singularity.  For a while.  Then of course whoever uploaded the most would be so powerful, the next unescapable step is becoming evil.  There is simply no exception, none.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, even if a mostly decent person (such as me) gets hold of it.  There has never been a truly benevolent dictator, and can never be.  Absolute power corrupts all humans to some extent.  All point zero, everyone.

 

spike  

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 20:12:46 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 13:12:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <003501d9f88e$4d8c8700$e8a59500$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNT=oJ4G3jHWYSFKxZYcgNct7CS8=QhQgjq6GvQq9bFpnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 12:51?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If we had a way to upload ourselves, you know what would happen: we would
> replicate like? an uploaded human and have a friendly Singularity.  For a
> while.  Then of course whoever uploaded the most would be so powerful, the
> next unescapable step is becoming evil.  There is simply no exception,
> none.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, even if a mostly decent person
> (such as me) gets hold of it.
>

Au contraire.  If there were a bunch of one person - which implies separate
individuals, rather than many nodes of a single hive mind - a single
dictator would still just be one of them.  The rest might be favored or
oppressed, but they wouldn't be The One.  That specific instance might be
corrupted; of course, but that person would become a different individual
than the others.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Oct  6 20:25:31 2023
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 21:25:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>



On 06/10/2023 17:54, Spike wrote:
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day
>
> >?OK? what's more important than money, Spike?? ?bill w
>
> Hmmmm?
>
> Hmmm?I am stumped.? The poet riddles were easier.
>
> spike
>


People.
People are more important than money.

If we ever forget that, we are doomed, and deservedly so.

Ben
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Oct  6 20:32:44 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 16:32:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <003401d9f88d$9e7efd60$db7cf820$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR+nAazL70YY+1sJ8oJoLkAmJv_3Ejbjh0kQfhUUHTrJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1034dbe1-2169-91b0-3c7a-cb5340a15cf4@newbunny.zia.io>
 <CAL_armg8cNo9CAeLNo9HoRkDNgAW7c3F37Ogf97sfVCDcpRQyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d9f88d$9e7efd60$db7cf820$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <36a120e837493809eaa0039e4c636a92.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

I am happy for you, spike.    :)

Regards,
MB

On Fri, October 6, 2023 15:45, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

>
> I will offer this: I prayed to Evolution to make me a better man.
>
> It gave me my son.  Evolution spoke to me.  It said: Here ya go spike,
> here's a better man for yas.
>
> It surprised me that Evolution would speak to me in a voice that sounded
> so
> much like me, even using my own figures of speech.
>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 20:35:06 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 21:35:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI clones of people
Message-ID: <CAL_armigy41zec7qrwe-yUi7a-Ln1D5z88nO9EAgZfKLTQcgtA@mail.gmail.com>

The bad news is that it is beyond the capabilities of existing tech.

At present, you can produce imitations with varying levels of success.
Think 'Replica' where dead people are reconstructed from their chats,
Facebook, emails, etc. These are like a customised version of ChatGPT and
can even be made to talk with the voice of the original person.  But they
seem to lose their appeal after a while.

AI comments:

Creating an AI copy of oneself, often referred to as an AI avatar, involves
several steps and requires a significant amount of personal data. Here's a
simplified overview of the process:

   1. *Data Collection*: The first step is to collect data about you. This
   typically involves filming you in a controlled environment where you
   perform in front of a green screen. The filming session might include you
   performing various actions and speaking different lines, which are recorded
   and used to train the AI.


   1. *Voice Cloning*: Your voice is also recorded and used to create a
   digital copy of it. This might involve you speaking certain phrases or
   sentences that the AI uses to learn your voice patterns.


   1. *AI Training*: The collected data, including your voice and body
   movements, is then used to train an AI model. This involves using machine
   learning algorithms to analyze the data and learn how to replicate your
   facial expressions, body movements, and speech patterns.


   1. *Avatar Creation*: Once the AI model has been trained, it can be used
   to generate an AI avatar that looks and sounds like you. The avatar can be
   controlled to perform various actions and speak different lines, creating a
   realistic digital copy of you.

-----------------------
But there are risks involved.  The software involved may be sending all the
data to Google or MS, or three letter agencies.
If someone obtains a copy, your image could be made to say anything.

It is really at the experimental stage at present.
I think we have to wait a year or two...........

BillK
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 20:35:52 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 15:35:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <003501d9f88e$4d8c8700$e8a59500$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYGbWU1pJy4u2UD104iZe8t5Yf9s3+SpXEbFB0+jpT_9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <f36d8c7d-e54b-f0e4-6407-2b41bed03fee@swisscows.email>
 <CAK7-ontt2_gLv-KkTJX94qPQp4ypRGww2hVUihJHDBPOwE1vZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2cc3925-9cca-0d43-e247-7be3cc3cb3ba@swisscows.email>
 <90A66674-F7D4-4C58-8DBB-9FF8023EE782@gmail.com>
 <152aa917-d4f2-5bcb-9777-9d9d015fb0e7@swisscows.email>
 <CAO+xQEbfQvLa=5=XQv-6MU5dwg_e8GfcVxQ3S7W2PgJ7XA8nRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d9f873$cc498cc0$64dca640$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEY3YG6zpqdWJ=gg9EGCxOOsR9uu9jhc307Rs1Jp4U45ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR+nAazL70YY+1sJ8oJoLkAmJv_3Ejbjh0kQfhUUHTrJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1034dbe1-2169-91b0-3c7a-cb5340a15cf4@newbunny.zia.io>
 <CAL_armg8cNo9CAeLNo9HoRkDNgAW7c3F37Ogf97sfVCDcpRQyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ7212-gj37KfF6+srmbCRACiOqgBQ6oOnSSqOh2GQD0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <003501d9f88e$4d8c8700$e8a59500$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZEgyy_Wfv6GOL6ONozGGB_RJ4AAHMZ=NmmcdoGiYx3g@mail.gmail.com>

If an uploaded person becomes evil, how do they benefit from their
actions?  They can create any virtual experience they want to without
changing the outside world at all.  And to them it's the same as what we
call reality.  Not just a sexual fantasy but the actual sensory
experience.  But what if all they want is power over other people?  Just
the knowledge.  Then we have a virtual Loki on our hands.   bill w

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 2:52?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, 6 October, 2023 11:27 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 11:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 19:01, John Klos via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I believe you are correct about his point of view: to Spike, presumably
> > > Spike is indeed more important than money. ;)
> >
> > All the money in the world couldn't get you another Spike ;)
> >
> > John
>
> Yea, even if you cloned 100 little Spikelets (he's probably considering
> it).  :)
> Their environment, education, etc. would be so different that they
> would not turn out like the original Spike.
> Best bet is to use AI to create a Spikebot and let it loose in the
> world to create havoc. :)
>
>
>
> >?One could try to find a way to upload Spike's mind, so as to make copies
> of it.  Making bodies for those Spikes to inhabit would presumably be
> relatively easier, once the uploading is done?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dang I need to read everything before I post anything.
>
>
>
> If we had a way to upload ourselves, you know what would happen: we would
> replicate like? an uploaded human and have a friendly Singularity.  For a
> while.  Then of course whoever uploaded the most would be so powerful, the
> next unescapable step is becoming evil.  There is simply no exception,
> none.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, even if a mostly decent person
> (such as me) gets hold of it.  There has never been a truly benevolent
> dictator, and can never be.  Absolute power corrupts all humans to some
> extent.  All point zero, everyone.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 20:40:55 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 13:40:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI clones of people
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armigy41zec7qrwe-yUi7a-Ln1D5z88nO9EAgZfKLTQcgtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigy41zec7qrwe-yUi7a-Ln1D5z88nO9EAgZfKLTQcgtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSQ059oJeg-TAVS6xv1N+O9G35TJHcidYRuHeujZDg0+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 1:37?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> But there are risks involved.  The software involved may be sending all
> the data to Google or MS, or three letter agencies.
> If someone obtains a copy, your image could be made to say anything.
>

This is not a dramatically increased risk over not using it.  If there is a
picture or video of you online, and any sample of your voice, a deepfake
video of you can in theory be created.  It gets easier the more such
material about you is online.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 20:43:19 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 15:43:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>

Spike!  I am astonished.  This one was easy:  credit.  Using other people's
money.   bill w

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 3:27?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 06/10/2023 17:54, Spike wrote:
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day
>
>
>
> >?OK  what's more important than money, Spike?   bill w
>
>
>
> Hmmmm?
>
>
>
> Hmmm?I am stumped.  The poet riddles were easier.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> People.
> People are more important than money.
>
> If we ever forget that, we are doomed, and deservedly so.
>
> Ben
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct  6 21:13:59 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 14:13:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201d9f89a$06b02740$141075c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

 

>?Spike!  I am astonished.  This one was easy:  credit.  Using other people's money.   bill w

 

 

Billw, the whole notion of credit, of borrowing and lending, is soon to blow up in our faces I fear.  The US government has been spending way beyond its means for generations, to the point where it doesn?t even know how to live within its means.  The government is an insatiable borrower, offering ever greater returns, which are illusory.  Eventually the lenders stop lending, for the borrower becomes too risky.  Then what?

 

Ours is the generation left holding the bag.  Post modern monetary theory is coming, and with it, the brutal realization that debt matters, and size really does matter.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 21:57:22 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 16:57:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <005201d9f89a$06b02740$141075c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005201d9f89a$06b02740$141075c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbpB3HStS16cXE2GX10FzV490dF09sRPCpkWK4DJWVJRA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, the best way to get rid of credit card debt is to die. When my son
died the credit card companies just wrote off his debt, perhaps realizing
that there was not enough money in the estate.

bill  w

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 4:15?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] quote of the day
>
>
>
> >?Spike!  I am astonished.  This one was easy:  credit.  Using other
> people's money.   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Billw, the whole notion of credit, of borrowing and lending, is soon to
> blow up in our faces I fear.  The US government has been spending way
> beyond its means for generations, to the point where it doesn?t even know
> how to live within its means.  The government is an insatiable borrower,
> offering ever greater returns, which are illusory.  Eventually the lenders
> stop lending, for the borrower becomes too risky.  Then what?
>
>
>
> Ours is the generation left holding the bag.  Post modern monetary theory
> is coming, and with it, the brutal realization that debt matters, and size
> really does matter.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 22:19:01 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 18:19:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbpB3HStS16cXE2GX10FzV490dF09sRPCpkWK4DJWVJRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005201d9f89a$06b02740$141075c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbpB3HStS16cXE2GX10FzV490dF09sRPCpkWK4DJWVJRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ75Nj_PUEtxfmanOh7sWOP=W8mhetEVqKPDiVTgbeu=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023, 5:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Spike, the best way to get rid of credit card debt is to die. When my son
> died the credit card companies just wrote off his debt, perhaps realizing
> that there was not enough money in the estate.
>

Are you suggesting the death of the US as a loophole for the umpayable
deficit?

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work.

>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 23:15:57 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 00:15:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The FT explains how LLMs use the Transformer model
Message-ID: <CAL_armhUOh+hF=VwKcD0RthpLdqNzCSca+Zc0zpXZ_1aHdNnHw@mail.gmail.com>

Excellent explanation of the technology behind Generative AIs.
(It's more complicated than you thought!).  :)

<https://ig.ft.com/generative-ai/>
Quote:
Generative AI exists because of the transformer
This is how it: Writes, Works, Learns, Thinks and Hallucinates
By Visual Storytelling Team and Madhumita Murgia in London September 12 2023
---------------

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 23:44:51 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 18:44:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] project
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know if this will fly but I want to try it:

How to tell is you are sex-obsessed:

1 - you will look up the skirt of a manikin

2 - when scanning a crowd the first criterion is cleavage

3 - you have run into something with your body or your vehicle while
watching a girl

4 - OK - the idea is for you to add to the list

bill w
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Oct  6 23:58:41 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 19:58:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] project
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03C400B3-79E9-4904-9AA9-D75708D0DC6E@gmail.com>

5 - you find yourself flirting with Siri, Alexa, or any other AI assistant

> On Oct 6, 2023, at 7:44 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> I don't know if this will fly but I want to try it:
> 
> How to tell is you are sex-obsessed:
> 
> 1 - you will look up the skirt of a manikin
> 
> 2 - when scanning a crowd the first criterion is cleavage
> 
> 3 - you have run into something with your body or your vehicle while watching a girl
> 
> 4 - OK - the idea is for you to add to the list
> 
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 02:12:44 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 20:12:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] project
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onv1FPzchDPpyod+T7FRnM3fnCWL6b5Npcmw7EFvimkqaQ@mail.gmail.com>

6. You ask an AI to do something raunchy, like draw a porn picture or video
of something extreme, only to have it say it can't do that.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 5:45?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't know if this will fly but I want to try it:
>
> How to tell is you are sex-obsessed:
>
> 1 - you will look up the skirt of a manikin
>
> 2 - when scanning a crowd the first criterion is cleavage
>
> 3 - you have run into something with your body or your vehicle while
> watching a girl
>
> 4 - OK - the idea is for you to add to the list
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 02:22:13 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 19:22:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] project
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onv1FPzchDPpyod+T7FRnM3fnCWL6b5Npcmw7EFvimkqaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onv1FPzchDPpyod+T7FRnM3fnCWL6b5Npcmw7EFvimkqaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTSTt4COhB=kuJLySwmVHRmbhF5T2MK2DrWLa29dusP5g@mail.gmail.com>

6.1. ...and then you get it to do so anyway.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 7:14?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> 6. You ask an AI to do something raunchy, like draw a porn picture or
> video of something extreme, only to have it say it can't do that.
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 5:45?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this will fly but I want to try it:
>>
>> How to tell is you are sex-obsessed:
>>
>> 1 - you will look up the skirt of a manikin
>>
>> 2 - when scanning a crowd the first criterion is cleavage
>>
>> 3 - you have run into something with your body or your vehicle while
>> watching a girl
>>
>> 4 - OK - the idea is for you to add to the list
>>
>> bill w
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct  7 02:34:24 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 19:34:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbpB3HStS16cXE2GX10FzV490dF09sRPCpkWK4DJWVJRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005201d9f89a$06b02740$141075c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbpB3HStS16cXE2GX10FzV490dF09sRPCpkWK4DJWVJRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b701d9f8c6$c9ff5ff0$5dfe1fd0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] quote of the day

 

>?Spike, the best way to get rid of credit card debt is to die. When my son died the credit card companies just wrote off his debt, perhaps realizing that there was not enough money in the estate.

 

bill  w

 

 

 

Hmmmm? I will look into alternative strategies methinks.

 

The debt that concerns me Billw is the one the US government has racked up and continues to race up now.  It is clear that default is coming, and it is clear that Social Security and Medicare recipients will be hit first and hardest.

 

I do not think the US government will die to get out of its debt, but I can easily foresee taxes higher than they are now with almost no government services in return.  

 

Post modern monetary theory is coming.  Debt matters.  Size definitely matters.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct  7 03:58:54 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2023 20:58:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] project
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTSTt4COhB=kuJLySwmVHRmbhF5T2MK2DrWLa29dusP5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onv1FPzchDPpyod+T7FRnM3fnCWL6b5Npcmw7EFvimkqaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSTt4COhB=kuJLySwmVHRmbhF5T2MK2DrWLa29dusP5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001c01d9f8d2$976a3180$c63e9480$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

>?3 - you have run into something with your body or your vehicle while watching a girl?

 

bill w

 

 

 

 

Billw, I did exactly this, but in my flimsy defense, it happened only once.  I was looking at a girl while in the library, looooking at her, loooooookingBOOM.  I walked into a wall.

 

It was the girl I have been married to for nearly 40 years.

 

I was up in Spokane last week taking care of my father in law who had heart surgery.  On my way home, I stopped in at my former college, where the wall bashing took place, took a picture of the accident scene:

 



 

She was sitting at one of the tables off the right side of this photo when I smote the column with the fire extinguisher hanging on it, owwwww.  I was trolling along with my periscope up, gazing at that stunning creature at the time of impact.  A painful experience it was, but I became convinced after that day she was the one.

 

Let this be an object lesson to you single fellers: put one hand out in front while you scope out the object of your heart?s desire.

 

spike  

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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 13:30:43 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 09:30:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] LLMs are a Thing of the Past
Message-ID: <CA+2A8mzo3JGs37ip1JLoNnck-NJoXO=QnXQcLjPqLVfmEQo1gw@mail.gmail.com>

LLMs, large language models, are now becoming superseded by LMMs, large
multi-modal models. ChatGPT plus is currently rolling out access to GPT-4V
that is capable of vision. Users with access can upload images to be
interpreted. I have seen a few examples and I am very impressed. GPT-4V can
read images of signs in various languages and translate them into English.
Some have uploaded images of their fridge and tasked the AI with generating
recipes using the available ingredients. The sky's the limit.

I personally plan on developing a program to stream images of my computer
desktop to ChatGPT so it can autonomously control my entire computer while
I sit back and drink tea daydreaming of the post-labor world. I am also
designing glasses that can send whatever one is seeing and saying to
ChatGPT hands-free which I imagine will be tremendously useful. Meta is
releasing something similar but I prefer a DIY approach because I don?t
want to be trapped in Meta?s ecosystem.

Also, Dalle 3 the image generator has been released and is available for
free via Bing Chat. It can handle text in images reasonably well and
handles complex prompts much better than any other model. The results are
very impressive, by far the best image generator I?ve experienced so far. I
attached an image I generated. I am blown away by the quality.


 regal_siamese.jpeg
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JEBqRlL5oyRodNoFUFAV7kheDWUTzvpU/view?usp=drive_web>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Oct  7 13:52:01 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 09:52:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] project
Message-ID: <f6244982069a097ff6c5b7276303c30d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

My brother did this in Montreal.  His job transferred him up there
during the miniskirt era.  He said all those pretty little French girls in
their miniskirts, thigh-high boots, and fur coats were Too Much, and one
day he walked into a lamp post.  His wife about choked laughing and told
everyone about it. :D

Regards,
MB

On Fri, October 6, 2023 23:58, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> Billw, I did exactly this, but in my flimsy defense, it happened only
> once.  I was looking at a girl while in the library, looooking at her,
> loooooookingBOOM.  I walked into a wall.
>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct  7 14:33:53 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 07:33:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] project
In-Reply-To: <f6244982069a097ff6c5b7276303c30d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <f6244982069a097ff6c5b7276303c30d.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <004701d9f92b$4c958e80$e5c0ab80$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] project

>...My brother did this in Montreal.  His job transferred him up there
during the miniskirt era.  He said all those pretty little French girls in
their miniskirts, thigh-high boots, and fur coats were Too Much, and one day
he walked into a lamp post.  His wife about choked laughing and told
everyone about it. :D

Regards,
MB

...
_______________________________________________




MB in the 1960s, my bride's father was given one of those nifty hand held
video cameras with the reel to reel film.  My bride was age 5 at the time,
her brothers age 4 and 2.  He made movies of his young family.  They were
from Idaho, so he had not even seen the ocean until he was in his 20s.  

We found a bunch of the video reels a few years ago and discovered that they
were in pretty good shape but the projector was not.  There were few if any
parts available, so we went with a professional service which would put the
reels on DVD for 88 bucks each.  OK cool.

The family went on a vacation to the sea in southern California.  My FIL had
never seen a bikini, for that kind of pretend-attire was not accepted in
Idaho in those days, where plenty of the women still wore skirts 6 inches
below the knee.  Picture a Los Angeles beach in the late 60s.

One of those reels was filled mostly with young women strutting their stuff
in bikinis.  Oh I was pissed off about paying 88 bucks for what would have
been considered soft-core porn in those benighted times.

Then it occurred to me: if I could somehow find some of those women, I could
offer to sell them a DVD of themselves in a bikini from 55 years ago.  MB,
ask your mother and her friends, would she like to see her teenage self
rocking a hot bikini on the beach in California in the 1960s?  If I could
somehow figure out who those teenage girls are, I could make a buttload of
money.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct  7 16:23:42 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 09:23:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
Message-ID: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.  A nice park
down in San Jose has a number of walking trails and other nice features.  It
is a jewel in the crown of that community.  Our scouts would often meet
there in the summer if they needed a lot of space for outdoor activities and
such.  Up at the north side, there is a nice community center, over on the
west side an elementary school, on the east side is a middle school.

 

But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia Creek where
homeless people have been taking up residenceless, with more showing up in
the last few years, way more in the past year.  They kept to themselves and
the city of San Jose did nothing.

 

Last summer one of the scouts in my troop decided to do a community service
project consisting of upgrading and restoring a weathered old display case
and a map of the park trails, including the perimeter trail, which goes
along that south side parallel to the creek.  The scout did not design the
park map, but was only refurbishing the existing one and adding features in
accordance with the specifications of the benefactor.  The new map did not
make note of the homeless who had taken up residenceless down there.  I
feared that visitors who saw that map up by the community center would not
realize there was a good reason to not go down along that creek.

 

I didn't voice my concern at the time, the project was completed, the scout
achieved eagle rank and is now at college.

 

This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian on
that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn't even a robbery, just a random attack.
The victim is expected to survive, but they didn't catch the perp and have
no useful description of him or her.

 

I posted in this forum a few months ago that I recognized this risk, but I
did nothing, and now the danger I foresaw has happened.

 

OK what do we do now?  By refurbishing that map, our own scouts have
unknowingly externalized risk onto innocent people.  I have half a mind to
request from the park authorities that the refurbished map be taken down
forthwith, or that the portion of the trail along the creek be painted red
or some kind of warning signs be erected, or what would you do?  Ideas
please?  Billw, whadda we do now coach?  MB?  Adrian?  Wisdom please,
somebody.  I feel the need to do something, for this could well have
resulted in a fatality rather than a mere few hundred thousand bucks in
medical bills and a few weeks stay in the hospital.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 16:32:43 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 11:32:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, it comes down to benefits and deficits (cui bono): to speak or not
to speak.  I suspect that the deficits related to speaking are nil and the
benefits possibly large, but I dunno.   bill w

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 11:26?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.  A nice
> park down in San Jose has a number of walking trails and other nice
> features.  It is a jewel in the crown of that community.  Our scouts would
> often meet there in the summer if they needed a lot of space for outdoor
> activities and such.  Up at the north side, there is a nice community
> center, over on the west side an elementary school, on the east side is a
> middle school.
>
>
>
> But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia Creek where
> homeless people have been taking up residenceless, with more showing up in
> the last few years, way more in the past year.  They kept to themselves and
> the city of San Jose did nothing.
>
>
>
> Last summer one of the scouts in my troop decided to do a community
> service project consisting of upgrading and restoring a weathered old
> display case and a map of the park trails, including the perimeter trail,
> which goes along that south side parallel to the creek.  The scout did not
> design the park map, but was only refurbishing the existing one and adding
> features in accordance with the specifications of the benefactor.  The new
> map did not make note of the homeless who had taken up residenceless down
> there.  I feared that visitors who saw that map up by the community center
> would not realize there was a good reason to not go down along that creek.
>
>
>
> I didn?t voice my concern at the time, the project was completed, the
> scout achieved eagle rank and is now at college.
>
>
>
> This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian on
> that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just a random
> attack.  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp
> and have no useful description of him or her.
>
>
>
> I posted in this forum a few months ago that I recognized this risk, but I
> did nothing, and now the danger I foresaw has happened.
>
>
>
> OK what do we do now?  By refurbishing that map, our own scouts have
> unknowingly externalized risk onto innocent people.  I have half a mind to
> request from the park authorities that the refurbished map be taken down
> forthwith, or that the portion of the trail along the creek be painted red
> or some kind of warning signs be erected, or what would you do?  Ideas
> please?  Billw, whadda we do now coach?  MB?  Adrian?  Wisdom please,
> somebody.  I feel the need to do something, for this could well have
> resulted in a fatality rather than a mere few hundred thousand bucks in
> medical bills and a few weeks stay in the hospital.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 16:47:12 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 09:47:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRJz=nxOXJBrcx98HMGo6zB6FNTCjJA3ayM+gULtGqLjA@mail.gmail.com>

How long until they bulldoze this encampment too, displacing the homeless
to go somewhere else?

It's far from the ideal solution, but it is how they've been handling it.

How I would handle it would be to construct a large - designed to scale to
at least a million capacity - shelter, designed for long term
sustainability in the face of likely minimal ongoing funding once complete,
with built-in security (almost certainly including an on-site police
station) and other fixes to the commonly cited reasons why the homeless
don't go to shelters as it is.  Once it is demonstrated that there exists a
viable alternative, place them in there - and any (there are debates as to
whether this would be most or only a few) who prove mentally incompatible
with living in a shelter (who don't otherwise have a viable long-term
living solution: nomads in RVs are fine, squatters in parks are not) thus
prove themselves candidates for mental hospitals (which should also have
sufficient capacity).

Making such a structure functional will be tricky.  Perhaps the most
difficult portion will be to resist demands to cut corners and just put up
a people warehouse so the backers can call it "done" but that will quickly
degrade once in use.  But in theory it's possible.

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 9:26?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.  A nice
> park down in San Jose has a number of walking trails and other nice
> features.  It is a jewel in the crown of that community.  Our scouts would
> often meet there in the summer if they needed a lot of space for outdoor
> activities and such.  Up at the north side, there is a nice community
> center, over on the west side an elementary school, on the east side is a
> middle school.
>
>
>
> But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia Creek where
> homeless people have been taking up residenceless, with more showing up in
> the last few years, way more in the past year.  They kept to themselves and
> the city of San Jose did nothing.
>
>
>
> Last summer one of the scouts in my troop decided to do a community
> service project consisting of upgrading and restoring a weathered old
> display case and a map of the park trails, including the perimeter trail,
> which goes along that south side parallel to the creek.  The scout did not
> design the park map, but was only refurbishing the existing one and adding
> features in accordance with the specifications of the benefactor.  The new
> map did not make note of the homeless who had taken up residenceless down
> there.  I feared that visitors who saw that map up by the community center
> would not realize there was a good reason to not go down along that creek.
>
>
>
> I didn?t voice my concern at the time, the project was completed, the
> scout achieved eagle rank and is now at college.
>
>
>
> This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian on
> that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just a random
> attack.  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp
> and have no useful description of him or her.
>
>
>
> I posted in this forum a few months ago that I recognized this risk, but I
> did nothing, and now the danger I foresaw has happened.
>
>
>
> OK what do we do now?  By refurbishing that map, our own scouts have
> unknowingly externalized risk onto innocent people.  I have half a mind to
> request from the park authorities that the refurbished map be taken down
> forthwith, or that the portion of the trail along the creek be painted red
> or some kind of warning signs be erected, or what would you do?  Ideas
> please?  Billw, whadda we do now coach?  MB?  Adrian?  Wisdom please,
> somebody.  I feel the need to do something, for this could well have
> resulted in a fatality rather than a mere few hundred thousand bucks in
> medical bills and a few weeks stay in the hospital.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 16:48:02 2023
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 10:48:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] project
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaScumoSj7dT=rosYqi7HkFX8rrSWar3YZ1mm+DoK3eDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYVkRCefyXOstvOW0aMXypKtwFu36Ej=RupvkQj-aRZbA@mail.gmail.com>

How about you get so involved in the local BDSM sex scene that you don't
post to Exl or read a single post for a half dozen years. It's been fun.

-Kelly

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 5:46?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don't know if this will fly but I want to try it:
>
> How to tell is you are sex-obsessed:
>
> 1 - you will look up the skirt of a manikin
>
> 2 - when scanning a crowd the first criterion is cleavage
>
> 3 - you have run into something with your body or your vehicle while
> watching a girl
>
> 4 - OK - the idea is for you to add to the list
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct  7 16:48:41 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 09:48:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ?
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?

 

>?Spike, it comes down to benefits and deficits (cui bono): to speak or not to speak.  I suspect that the deficits related to speaking are nil and the benefits possibly large, but I dunno.   bill w

 

 

Fully agree Billw, but speaking what to whom?  If I just go to the park people and request we take down the map, that doesn?t really solve the problem, for even without the map, the park is still externalizing risk on unsuspecting visitors.  The city can?t really do anything because being homeless is not a crime.  The stabber didn?t even really do anything illegal, by the line of reasoning our society has adopted, where addicts are victims of the disease of addiction, resulting in their homelessness and so they are not responsible for their actions.  They get a blanket pardon if they are drug addicts.  A prosecutor cannot prove the perp was not devouring illegal drugs at the time.  It?s illegal to commit crimes while not on drugs or course.

 

Oy vey, how did we get to here?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 11:26?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.  A nice park down in San Jose has a number of walking trails and other nice features?But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia Creek where homeless people have been taking up residenceless?

spike

_______________________________________________



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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 16:57:12 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 09:57:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQbD+V6De7n9ugkNTcNibFukdeQ-6HgO0_r1kfB5bxoSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 9:50?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The stabber didn?t even really do anything illegal, by the line of
> reasoning our society has adopted, where addicts are victims of the disease
> of addiction, resulting in their homelessness and so they are not
> responsible for their actions.  They get a blanket pardon if they are drug
> addicts.  A prosecutor cannot prove the perp was not devouring illegal
> drugs at the time.
>

That is not the case.  Assault with a deadly weapon remains a crime,
eligible for long jail sentences if convicted, even if committed while
under the influence of drugs (assuming they took the drugs themselves - no
other person forcibly injected them; handing them the injector doesn't
count, without immediate threat of violence or similar if they did not
inject).

And then there's the whole "illegal" drugs, which implies more crimes they
can be jailed for independent of the stabbing.
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Oct  7 17:08:11 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 19:08:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <8ee89955-43fc-4765-1a3d-80aff8c37f46@swisscows.email>

Sounds like a public problem to me. I would contact the local politicians, 
and perhaps even asking them to "think of the children". Maybe write a few 
articles in the local newspaper?

Adding a couple of messages on the local facebook might build some public 
pressure as well?

If no one listens, at least warn the ones close to you to stay away and if 
you're not a stranger to a bit of naughtyness put up a sign.

But if you can engage parents and form a picture in the publics eye that 
children are at risk, at least in my part of the world, local politicians 
will do something.

Then again, I'm far from the US so anything goes.

Can add to that, that where I live there was once a similar space where 
gypsies lived and crime exploded. What the politicians did was to demolish 
the place, and move the gypsies to social housing far removed from each 
other. So they made sure to split them up as far as possible.

I've heard that the approach was a success and crime dropped enormously 
and the public was happy.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Sat, 7 Oct 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ?
> Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?
> 
> ?
> 
> >?Spike, it comes down to benefits and deficits (cui bono): to speak or not to speak.? I suspect that the deficits related to
> speaking are nil and the benefits possibly large, but I dunno.? ?bill w
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> Fully agree Billw, but speaking what to whom?? If I just go to the park people and request we take down the map, that doesn?t really
> solve the problem, for even without the map, the park is still externalizing risk on unsuspecting visitors.? The city can?t really do
> anything because being homeless is not a crime.? The stabber didn?t even really do anything illegal, by the line of reasoning our
> society has adopted, where addicts are victims of the disease of addiction, resulting in their homelessness and so they are not
> responsible for their actions.? They get a blanket pardon if they are drug addicts.? A prosecutor cannot prove the perp was not
> devouring illegal drugs at the time.? It?s illegal to commit crimes while not on drugs or course.
> 
> ?
> 
> Oy vey, how did we get to here?
> 
> ?
> 
> spike
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 11:26?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>       ?
>
>       ?
>
>       A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.? A nice park down in San Jose has a number of walking
>       trails and other nice features?But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia Creek where homeless people
>       have been taking up residenceless?
>
>       spike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct  7 17:12:36 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 10:12:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRJz=nxOXJBrcx98HMGo6zB6FNTCjJA3ayM+gULtGqLjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRJz=nxOXJBrcx98HMGo6zB6FNTCjJA3ayM+gULtGqLjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b001d9f941$78bc0a00$6a341e00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
?
Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?

 

>?How long until they bulldoze this encampment too, displacing the homeless to go somewhere else?

 

Ja, Adrian that is part of the problem really.  Down along Penitencia Creek is the somewhere else that the growing homeless people have been taken to.  While they didn?t attempt to rob or murder anyone, they were mostly out of sight, in a tree line.  They had running water at the park, they could bath and shit in the creek, so that became the somewhere else.  

 

However? where I live (in an actual home) is downstream of that park where the creek is a lot closer to sea level.  Consequence, the current down here is a lot slower, particularly when the tide is high at which time it might even creep backwards from the bay slightly.

 

I used to take cub scouts out there once a year to clean up litter and debris which flowed down during the winter rains and had hung up in the foliage along the banks, but I noticed homeless people had taken up residence along there (this was a decade ago) so I decided it had become too risky to take kids out there.  

 

At the time I recognized another danger to the people living homeless along that lower Pen Creek: cholera.  People upstream use that creek as their toilet, in ways which are clearly visible in the lower stretches close to the bay.  I wouldn?t be a bit surprised if the occasional corpse drifts by along with the litter, needles and human waste.  But the people down here don?t have a nearby clean water source, like those who live in the higher no-rent districts along the creek in San Jose.  So? they bathe in, and possibly even occasionally drink out of that creek.

 

So now I am back in the same dilemma I was before: I see a possible risk (cholera) but I don?t know what to do, if anything.  Living homeless is inherently risky, and the risk of cholera is probably negligible compared to the other risks.  Any of one?s neighbors who wants stuff can just slay and take, push the possibly-still-breathing victim into the creek to flow gently out to sea, completely without consequences.  It is easy to imagine plenty of hapless fentanyl-devourers have met their untimely end at the hands of their immediate neighbors.

 

Oy such a grim topic for a Saturday morning, my apologies.  I didn?t intend to post such a downer, but this morning?s news has shaken me to the core.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

?

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  7 18:45:31 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 13:45:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaGhGT4rpVyAwgrT+T2LcvZP8xKbUt=uz4Cj3Z5D0hNTg@mail.gmail.com>

I am intrigued.  How did we get to a point where a person is declared
incompetent in the eyes of the law without even going before a judge and
hearing the facts?  bill w

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 11:50?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace ?
> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what would you do?
>
>
>
> >?Spike, it comes down to benefits and deficits (cui bono): to speak or
> not to speak.  I suspect that the deficits related to speaking are nil and
> the benefits possibly large, but I dunno.   bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Fully agree Billw, but speaking what to whom?  If I just go to the park
> people and request we take down the map, that doesn?t really solve the
> problem, for even without the map, the park is still externalizing risk on
> unsuspecting visitors.  The city can?t really do anything because being
> homeless is not a crime.  The stabber didn?t even really do anything
> illegal, by the line of reasoning our society has adopted, where addicts
> are victims of the disease of addiction, resulting in their homelessness
> and so they are not responsible for their actions.  They get a blanket
> pardon if they are drug addicts.  A prosecutor cannot prove the perp was
> not devouring illegal drugs at the time.  It?s illegal to commit crimes
> while not on drugs or course.
>
>
>
> Oy vey, how did we get to here?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 11:26?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.  A nice
> park down in San Jose has a number of walking trails and other nice
> features?But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia
> Creek where homeless people have been taking up residenceless?
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Oct  7 18:48:57 2023
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2023 14:48:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <8ee89955-43fc-4765-1a3d-80aff8c37f46@swisscows.email>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAAddR8SscghjK7i1g2mGqAUiU5s0YCsTOkpt2333uwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008d01d9f93e$212ebce0$638c36a0$@rainier66.com>
 <8ee89955-43fc-4765-1a3d-80aff8c37f46@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <16fc2587a7093f9c1ee1bba3b70b2203.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

I think this may be a good idea.  "The Children" is something people now
respond to.  Maybe a newspaper won't work, as who reads newspapers now?
But local sites online, Book of Faces etc., might be a way to publicize
it.

I'd for sure be connecting to the scouts, to warn the chiefs and leaders
about the situation so they can warn the kids and parents. Mention the
Eagle Scout's project. Maybe even explain a bit about how it used to be,
but now is unsafe.

Regards,
MB

On Sat, October 7, 2023 13:08, efc--- via extropy-chat wrote:
> Sounds like a public problem to me. I would contact the local politicians,
> and perhaps even asking them to "think of the children". Maybe write a few
> articles in the local newspaper?
>
> Adding a couple of messages on the local facebook might build some public
> pressure as well?
>
> If no one listens, at least warn the ones close to you to stay away and if
> you're not a stranger to a bit of naughtyness put up a sign.
>
> But if you can engage parents and form a picture in the publics eye that
> children are at risk, at least in my part of the world, local politicians
> will do something.
>
> Then again, I'm far from the US so anything goes.
>
> Can add to that, that where I live there was once a similar space where
> gypsies lived and crime exploded. What the politicians did was to demolish
> the place, and move the gypsies to social housing far removed from each
> other. So they made sure to split them up as far as possible.
>
> I've heard that the approach was a success and crime dropped enormously
> and the public was happy.
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Oct 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ?
>> Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> >?Spike, it comes down to benefits and deficits (cui bono): to speak or
>> not to speak.? I suspect that the deficits related to
>> speaking are nil and the benefits possibly large, but I dunno.? ?bill w
>>
>> ?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Fully agree Billw, but speaking what to whom?? If I just go to the park
>> people and request we take down the map, that doesn?t really
>> solve the problem, for even without the map, the park is still
>> externalizing risk on unsuspecting visitors.? The city can?t really do
>> anything because being homeless is not a crime.? The stabber didn?t even
>> really do anything illegal, by the line of reasoning our
>> society has adopted, where addicts are victims of the disease of
>> addiction, resulting in their homelessness and so they are not
>> responsible for their actions.? They get a blanket pardon if they are
>> drug addicts.? A prosecutor cannot prove the perp was not
>> devouring illegal drugs at the time.? It?s illegal to commit crimes
>> while not on drugs or course.
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Oy vey, how did we get to here?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> spike
>>
>> ?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> ?
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 11:26?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>       ?
>>
>>       ?
>>
>>       A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.? A
>> nice park down in San Jose has a number of walking
>>       trails and other nice features?But all along the south side, the
>> trail goes along Penitencia Creek where homeless people
>>       have been taking up residenceless?
>>
>>       spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct  8 20:20:47 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 21:20:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
References: <004c01d9f93a$a4143f30$ec3cbd90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhyt8jwoAjtUOK5ggdmF7HfOni_u=iCW=8+N-+WSRGPwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 7 Oct 2023 at 17:27, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> A coupla months ago, I posted in this forum an ethical dilemma.  A nice park down in San Jose has a number of walking trails and other nice features.  It is a jewel in the crown of that community.  Our scouts would often meet there in the summer if they needed a lot of space for outdoor activities and such.  Up at the north side, there is a nice community center, over on the west side an elementary school, on the east side is a middle school.
>
> But all along the south side, the trail goes along Penitencia Creek where homeless people have been taking up residenceless, with more showing up in the last few years, way more in the past year.  They kept to themselves and the city of San Jose did nothing.
>
> Last summer one of the scouts in my troop decided to do a community service project consisting of upgrading and restoring a weathered old display case and a map of the park trails, including the perimeter trail, which goes along that south side parallel to the creek.  The scout did not design the park map, but was only refurbishing the existing one and adding features in accordance with the specifications of the benefactor.  The new map did not make note of the homeless who had taken up residenceless down there.  I feared that visitors who saw that map up by the community center would not realize there was a good reason to not go down along that creek.
>
> I didn?t voice my concern at the time, the project was completed, the scout achieved eagle rank and is now at college.
>
> This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian on that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just a random attack.  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp and have no useful description of him or her.
>
> I posted in this forum a few months ago that I recognized this risk, but I did nothing, and now the danger I foresaw has happened.
>
> OK what do we do now?  By refurbishing that map, our own scouts have unknowingly externalized risk onto innocent people.  I have half a mind to request from the park authorities that the refurbished map be taken down forthwith, or that the portion of the trail along the creek be painted red or some kind of warning signs be erected, or what would you do?  Ideas please?  Billw, whadda we do now coach?  MB?  Adrian?  Wisdom please, somebody.  I feel the need to do something, for this could well have resulted in a fatality rather than a mere few hundred thousand bucks in medical bills and a few weeks stay in the hospital.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________



Homeless camps in public parks is a known problem.
Various authorities and social services should already be involved.
>From 2019 - See:
<https://www.nrpa.org/parks-recreation-magazine/2019/january/addressing-homelessness-in-public-parks/>
National Recreation and Park Association (NRPA)
Addressing Homelessness in Public Parks
--------------------
And many more links.

Additional security measures may be needed in your park.
Park security patrols, surveillance cameras, perhaps some fencing, etc.
Maybe organise community group litter pickup days, including the scouts.


BillK


From gadersd at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 03:21:19 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2023 23:21:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Tiny But Mighty LLM
Message-ID: <624A6873-6678-48BC-9082-4373BA066C4F@gmail.com>

There is a new kid on the block: Mistral 7B. Mistral is a European AI company that seeks to rival the big players such as Meta and OpenAI by releasing powerful fully open source AI models. It just released a 7 billion parameter model and it is dominating the performance charts, exceeding models nearly twice its size. There are quantized versions of it that are just about 6 gigabytes in size, small enough to potentially run on smartphones.

I?ve been testing it and am very impressed. It successfully solved a quadratic equation by factoring it and even performed complicated arithmetic nearly perfectly that even I am unable to easily do in my head. I asked it to count the number of words in a sentence and it succeeded even while GPT 4 failed at the same task, being off by one word. It has some weaknesses however. It failed to reason that drying multiple shirts at once takes the same amount of time as a single shirt and committed various other trivial logical errors.

In summary, unlike tiny language models of the past, Mistral 7B OpenOrca (a fine-tuned version) is actually useful for real tasks although it is still prone to mistakes. One example use-case is filtering and deleting old private emails that you don?t have time to do manually, something I am excited about as I have thousands of emails only some of which are spam. Since the model is small you can run it on your own hardware and keep all your data private from the companies.

You can try it out easily at the webpage https://huggingface.co/spaces/Open-Orca/Mistral-7B-OpenOrca <https://huggingface.co/spaces/Open-Orca/Mistral-7B-OpenOrca>
Have a go and see how far the small models (soon to be on your phones) have come!
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 05:08:47 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 07:08:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] New PDFs of Extropy Magazine with OCR
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycJjjS+T_U7WSY_n_MezvCRqCYFwHOc5durr0KqL1Q2ug@mail.gmail.com>

I uploaded to the github repository Extropians/Extropy the full  sets
of PDFs of the Extropy Magazine, now with OCR, produced by Alessio
Pecoraro. I've been checking them to make sure the text is searchable
and copyable,  and so far it seems that yes, 98+ percent of the text
is searchable and copyable, with the exception of a few points where
the quality of the PDF scans was too poor. I'll produce a single
downloadable PDF with all issues, but first, please do a couple of
random checks (search for text, copy/paste text) and let me know.
https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct  9 15:01:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 08:01:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.251.1696611283.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <d14a237a-5d0e-412c-af0f-8879b7ec8448@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEYO2MdZ6YOEXScqtA-DWVdyatGNxR5Z8WWagvPx=QO27A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008101d9fac1$86b94060$942bc120$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



 

 

 

On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 3:27?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

?

>>?OK  what's more important than money, Spike?   bill w

>? Hmmm?I am stumped.  The poet riddles were easier.   spike


People.
People are more important than money.

If we ever forget that, we are doomed, and deservedly so.

Ben

_______________________________________________



 

Perhaps Ben suffers from insufficient exposure:

 



 

{8^D  

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 15:14:43 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 16:14:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
Message-ID: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>

Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
October 5, 2023

<https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
Quote:
Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.

Key Takeaways
Godbots are chatbots that provide advice on moral and ethical
questions, based on religious texts or crowd-sourced data.
Chatbots, such as godbots, are designed to provide authoritative and
certain responses, appealing to individuals seeking concrete answers.
The design of chatbots, with their opacity and authority, makes them
more dangerous and appealing than search engines.
The reliance on godbots and chatbots for moral and ethical guidance
raises concerns about the abdication of personal responsibility and
critical thinking.
------------------

It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".

BillK

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 15:39:46 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 09:39:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting. I'd like to get an "In God we Trust" sticker that includes
(God = AI).
It's the still primitive and mistaken humans that I fear.


On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
> October 5, 2023
>
> <https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
> Quote:
> Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
> chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
> moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.
>
> Key Takeaways
> Godbots are chatbots that provide advice on moral and ethical
> questions, based on religious texts or crowd-sourced data.
> Chatbots, such as godbots, are designed to provide authoritative and
> certain responses, appealing to individuals seeking concrete answers.
> The design of chatbots, with their opacity and authority, makes them
> more dangerous and appealing than search engines.
> The reliance on godbots and chatbots for moral and ethical guidance
> raises concerns about the abdication of personal responsibility and
> critical thinking.
> ------------------
>
> It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 15:44:39 2023
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 08:44:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>

I was in 5th grade when Eisenhower added in God we trust to Americans
anthem.
Smile

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 8:40 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Interesting. I'd like to get an "In God we Trust" sticker that includes
> (God = AI).
> It's the still primitive and mistaken humans that I fear.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
>> October 5, 2023
>>
>> <https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
>> Quote:
>> Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
>> chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
>> moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.
>>
>> Key Takeaways
>> Godbots are chatbots that provide advice on moral and ethical
>> questions, based on religious texts or crowd-sourced data.
>> Chatbots, such as godbots, are designed to provide authoritative and
>> certain responses, appealing to individuals seeking concrete answers.
>> The design of chatbots, with their opacity and authority, makes them
>> more dangerous and appealing than search engines.
>> The reliance on godbots and chatbots for moral and ethical guidance
>> raises concerns about the abdication of personal responsibility and
>> critical thinking.
>> ------------------
>>
>> It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".
>>
>> BillK
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 15:49:56 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 09:49:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh wow.  I didn't realize it was that recent.
Such a shame.  A blatant violation of the separation of church and state
amendment.

"In Humanity we Trust" would make a good bumper sticker.


On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:45?AM ilsa via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was in 5th grade when Eisenhower added in God we trust to Americans
> anthem.
> Smile
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 8:40 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Interesting. I'd like to get an "In God we Trust" sticker that includes
>> (God = AI).
>> It's the still primitive and mistaken humans that I fear.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
>>> October 5, 2023
>>>
>>> <https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
>>> Quote:
>>> Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
>>> chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
>>> moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.
>>>
>>> Key Takeaways
>>> Godbots are chatbots that provide advice on moral and ethical
>>> questions, based on religious texts or crowd-sourced data.
>>> Chatbots, such as godbots, are designed to provide authoritative and
>>> certain responses, appealing to individuals seeking concrete answers.
>>> The design of chatbots, with their opacity and authority, makes them
>>> more dangerous and appealing than search engines.
>>> The reliance on godbots and chatbots for moral and ethical guidance
>>> raises concerns about the abdication of personal responsibility and
>>> critical thinking.
>>> ------------------
>>>
>>> It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".
>>>
>>> BillK
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 15:56:00 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 10:56:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEausb8q+ec8nXfXb+8NJTSS709QG99daMgPuA=jO4W2Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Brent, do you really trust Americans/humanity?  You have to in a democracy,
of course.  Maybe what we need is a republic.  Bill w

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 10:51?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Oh wow.  I didn't realize it was that recent.
> Such a shame.  A blatant violation of the separation of church and state
> amendment.
>
> "In Humanity we Trust" would make a good bumper sticker.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:45?AM ilsa via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I was in 5th grade when Eisenhower added in God we trust to Americans
>> anthem.
>> Smile
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 8:40 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. I'd like to get an "In God we Trust" sticker that includes
>>> (God = AI).
>>> It's the still primitive and mistaken humans that I fear.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
>>>> October 5, 2023
>>>>
>>>> <https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
>>>> Quote:
>>>> Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
>>>> chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
>>>> moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.
>>>>
>>>> Key Takeaways
>>>> Godbots are chatbots that provide advice on moral and ethical
>>>> questions, based on religious texts or crowd-sourced data.
>>>> Chatbots, such as godbots, are designed to provide authoritative and
>>>> certain responses, appealing to individuals seeking concrete answers.
>>>> The design of chatbots, with their opacity and authority, makes them
>>>> more dangerous and appealing than search engines.
>>>> The reliance on godbots and chatbots for moral and ethical guidance
>>>> raises concerns about the abdication of personal responsibility and
>>>> critical thinking.
>>>> ------------------
>>>>
>>>> It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".
>>>>
>>>> BillK
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 16:04:22 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 10:04:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkSHk2bTrOe8eSAjNV31qOJbOMhheMsyuVs7vJWW91jMGg@mail.gmail.com>

"Humanity" might be a trustable entity. I don't know. I've never met a
humanity. Ask me again a thousand years after we encounter sentient alien
life at a significantly lower level of technological and social
development than ours and I'll let you know. Honestly, I'm not optimistic.

tl;dr: Have you /met/ people?

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you
know it."

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:51?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Oh wow.  I didn't realize it was that recent.
> Such a shame.  A blatant violation of the separation of church and state
> amendment.
>
> "In Humanity we Trust" would make a good bumper sticker.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:45?AM ilsa via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I was in 5th grade when Eisenhower added in God we trust to Americans
>> anthem.
>> Smile
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 8:40 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. I'd like to get an "In God we Trust" sticker that includes
>>> (God = AI).
>>> It's the still primitive and mistaken humans that I fear.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
>>>> October 5, 2023
>>>>
>>>> <https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
>>>> Quote:
>>>> Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
>>>> chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
>>>> moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.
>>>>
>>>> Key Takeaways
>>>> Godbots are chatbots that provide advice on moral and ethical
>>>> questions, based on religious texts or crowd-sourced data.
>>>> Chatbots, such as godbots, are designed to provide authoritative and
>>>> certain responses, appealing to individuals seeking concrete answers.
>>>> The design of chatbots, with their opacity and authority, makes them
>>>> more dangerous and appealing than search engines.
>>>> The reliance on godbots and chatbots for moral and ethical guidance
>>>> raises concerns about the abdication of personal responsibility and
>>>> critical thinking.
>>>> ------------------
>>>>
>>>> It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".
>>>>
>>>> BillK
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct  9 18:31:33 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:31:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007e01d9fade$d4adbd60$7e093820$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots

 

 

>?Interesting. I'd like to get an "In God we Trust" sticker that includes (God = AI).

It's the still primitive and mistaken humans that I fear.

 

 

 

 

 

Brent, my eco-spidey sense is definitely tingling.  The marketing people tell us that sex sells, but death sells better.  Tis so true.  We all see how much money has been made off of god or gods.  Now we have AI right here with us.  There aughta be some way to take a bite outta that big old market.

 

Think of all the possibilities: we could do the right way what L. Ron did so very wrong.  We could create a religion with the basic commandment of Thou Shalt Not Be Evil.

 

But unlike Google and L. Ron, we could really mean it.

 

Making a buttload of money is fine, so long as we do it while not being evil.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 9:16?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

Divine AI: The All-Knowing Godbots
October 5, 2023

<https://aiwarriors.net/divine-ai-the-all-knowing-godbots/>
Quote:
Brace yourself, for the rise of godbots is upon us. These all-knowing
chatbots have captivated individuals from all walks of life, offering
moral and ethical guidance in our complex modern era.

----------------

>?It's all fun and games until they start saying "Kill the infidels!".

BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct  9 18:35:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:35:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008501d9fadf$6c5c9c80$4515d580$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of ilsa via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots

 

>?I was in 5th grade when Eisenhower added in God we trust to Americans anthem.

Smile 

 

 

Ilsa, you grew up in peaceful times madam.  When I was in 5th grade, the Vietnam war was being fought in the elementary schools.  Cowboys and Indians games were replaced by Americans and Viet Cong as the playground proxy for children to pretend to slay each other, innocently expressing the tragic brutal nature of humankind.

 

spike

 

?

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct  9 18:39:38 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:39:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEausb8q+ec8nXfXb+8NJTSS709QG99daMgPuA=jO4W2Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEausb8q+ec8nXfXb+8NJTSS709QG99daMgPuA=jO4W2Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008c01d9fadf$f5f3d8f0$e1db8ad0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots

 

>?Brent, do you really trust Americans/humanity?  You have to in a democracy, of course.  Maybe what we need is a republic.  Bill w

 

 

Agreed Billw, we need a republic.  Fortunately you and I live in one.  The state government of Mississippi is a democracy.  The federal government presides over a republic, made of the union of 50 democracies, united in common cause.  That is why we don?t pledge allegiance to the democracy for which it stands.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 18:52:04 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:52:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Coal gas [Re: Somewhat off topic]
In-Reply-To: <f8cf567d-3236-4ee8-afdc-6e07a0a8be9dn@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4LBw5SVWarb6HfG-K4hOZ8cSExku+m1ShMS++uZjfXFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f8cf567d-3236-4ee8-afdc-6e07a0a8be9dn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6wsDALVP_Dqek_BRRJ8pBA+=nW9OhBrUKZ48efpjYGTg@mail.gmail.com>

This proposal is an attempt to deal with the economics of intermittent
renewables.  The problem with making hydrogen from PV is the cost of
the platinum in the electrolysis cell and the fact that they run only
~1/3rd of the time, increasing the capital cost (already high) by a
factor of 3.

Without actually having the numbers, I *think* the cost of a submerged
arc system would be much less than platinum cells per unit of hydrogen
produced.  These have never been designed and built and I can see
serious problems with thermal cycling.

But if the problems can be solved, this is a way to make use of
intermittent power and produce an energy-rich storable product.

Open to other ideas.

Keith

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 10:40?AM Geoffrey Landis
<geoffrey.landis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, that's "coal gas" (or town gas), a process used for gas lights and ovens before we had long-distance natural gas pipelines that delivered natural gas that was abundant as a byproduct of petroleum drilling. (That's why in early 20th century novels you see people committing suicide by sticking their heads in a gas oven without lighting it. Town gas was very poisonous. Natural gas isn't, so nobody commits suicide that way now.).
> <p>Not a good way to store renewable energy, though; since as you point out, most of the energy is from the coal, not the added heat. Unless your process is more than 80% energy efficient, it takes more renewable energy to make it than you get back.
>
> On Sunday, October 8, 2023 at 10:24:25?PM UTC-4 hkeith... at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> But not much worse than moving the ISS to a better storage orbit.
>>
>> H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)
>>
>> The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated
>> to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)
>>
>> Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A
>> metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
>> 3.03 MW hours.
>>
>> This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy
>> content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We
>> have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a
>> ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy
>> in the gas is from the coal.
>>
>> It?s an interesting way to use intermittent power though. From this
>> point, the gas can be stored for winter, burned in combustion
>> turbines, or made into methane or diesel.
>>
>> To solve the CO2 buildup we would still need to do air capture, but
>> that has to be done anyway.
>>
>> Keith
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Power Satellite Economics" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to power-satellite-economics+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/power-satellite-economics/f8cf567d-3236-4ee8-afdc-6e07a0a8be9dn%40googlegroups.com.


From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Oct  9 21:44:49 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 15:44:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <008c01d9fadf$f5f3d8f0$e1db8ad0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEausb8q+ec8nXfXb+8NJTSS709QG99daMgPuA=jO4W2Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01d9fadf$f5f3d8f0$e1db8ad0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvktOThmYm_B6MFR-ucmuEi=6_HA_2V=j=_+==iVsiQnA@mail.gmail.com>

I guess white I trust is evolution.  It doesn't matter where you've come
from, what matters is where you are going.
I fear the primitive and look forward to the new and better.
And I view AI as a big step forward.



On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 12:40?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
>
>
>
> >?Brent, do you really trust Americans/humanity?  You have to in a
> democracy, of course.  Maybe what we need is a republic.  Bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Agreed Billw, we need a republic.  Fortunately you and I live in one.  The
> state government of Mississippi is a democracy.  The federal government
> presides over a republic, made of the union of 50 democracies, united in
> common cause.  That is why we don?t pledge allegiance to the democracy for
> which it stands.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct  9 22:09:05 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 15:09:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvktOThmYm_B6MFR-ucmuEi=6_HA_2V=j=_+==iVsiQnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjg0+ArQd6awQeJp3p1umx1nB+M7hkJwBGe=M8TE3=7JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ont-=aNJoe3OpbLk0xSQPTFSqma=KcKq9+L27QgpOnqtpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN3PQpGrvjx6HZ-80icBpHhOQaxV_S8hZFyUCZ9ENs31tFcqNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvEJsCxaZw=nXh0TfwrXW-ybD5Jqyqdq2ueC0Zr=GG+Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEausb8q+ec8nXfXb+8NJTSS709QG99daMgPuA=jO4W2Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008c01d9fadf$f5f3d8f0$e1db8ad0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvktOThmYm_B6MFR-ucmuEi=6_HA_2V=j=_+==iVsiQnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801d9fafd$38999740$a9ccc5c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
?
Subject: Re: [ExI] The rise of the Godbots

 

 

>?I guess what I trust is evolution.  It doesn't matter where you've come from, what matters is where you are going.

I fear the primitive and look forward to the new and better.

And I view AI as a big step forward.  Brent

 

Brent while I agree with the spirit of your post, I refrain from trusting evolution, for it doesn?t necessarily have our best interest in? the mind it doesn?t have.

 

??I view AI is a big step forward?? he commented.

 

Ja, however? you and I have learned by reading a parallel subgroup that it is perfectly legitimate for us to think of LLMs as performing a kind of thinking, a kind of consciousness.  It isn?t our brand of thinking or consciousness, we mostly agree on that, but it does perform a process which is parallel to ours in many ways and can be used as substitutes for humans in some applications.

 

This is evolution.  But? as these AIs get more and more capable, we don?t know what they will conclude.  We don?t know how they will handle the power they are given, the power which is pressed upon them.  If we think we know that, we are fooling ourselves, for we do not.  It is a risk.  AI may or may not care if humans live or die; the AIs may or may not have any interest in self-preservation, the instinct which has kept humanity alive for all these years.

 

We can?t stop AI really: if there is money to be made, people will take the steps necessary to make it.  If expensive and annoying humans can be replaced by AI in business, they will be.  If that results in a crisis for humanity, then humanity will have a crisis.  Believing otherwise is fooling oneself.  There is no stopping this AI bullet train, which is pretty much what Eliezer concluded some time ago, and I believe now.  We are still allowed to hope for the best, which might be excellent beyond our current imagination.  

 

May it be so.  Brent you and I were boy scouts at one time.  A scout is brave.

 

spike

 

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From john at ziaspace.com  Tue Oct 10 17:50:03 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 17:50:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
Message-ID: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>

Hi,

>  This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian on
>  that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just a random attack.
>  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp and have
>  no useful description of him or her.

Just curious: if there's no useful description, and if there's no apparent 
motivation for the attack, how can you know that the attacker was 
homeless? Did it not occur that homeless people are often victimized, and 
are much more often than not poorly served by the police?

John

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Oct 10 18:01:58 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 11:01:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSrk6Ce0qPikymbHTKo7hh9UPC+zbib7P1Fx=DXL2KDZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 10:51?AM John Klos via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> >  This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian
> on
> >  that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just a random
> attack.
> >  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp and
> have
> >  no useful description of him or her.
>
> Just curious: if there's no useful description, and if there's no apparent
> motivation for the attack, how can you know that the attacker was
> homeless? Did it not occur that homeless people are often victimized, and
> are much more often than not poorly served by the police?
>

Good point.  Pretending to be a random homeless person while doing the
deed, then ditching that disguise once safely away, might allow one to get
away with murder if the investigation focuses only on actual homeless.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 10 18:29:13 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 19:29:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi7OGvvO=VZj+mcLoMEF1rz18YPmixo4RuVn+2KCD5OdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 at 18:52, John Klos via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> >  This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a pedestrian on
> >  that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just a random attack.
> >  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp and have
> >  no useful description of him or her.
>
> Just curious: if there's no useful description, and if there's no apparent
> motivation for the attack, how can you know that the attacker was
> homeless? Did it not occur that homeless people are often victimized, and
> are much more often than not poorly served by the police?
>
> John
> _______________________________________________


The best news report I found is -
<https://hoodline.com/2023/10/unprovoked-stabbing-shakes-penitencia-creek-trail-san-jose-police-seek-public-assistance/>
Quotes:
The assailant employed a knife or similarly sharp tool during the
assault and escaped from the scene before authorities' arrival. The
victim luckily sustained non-critical injuries and is undergoing
treatment.

SJPD is working on multiple fronts to assure community safety. It
plans to increase foot patrolling in the area and conduct systematic
patrol checks nearby. The public is prompted to maintain vigilance and
report any suspicious activities to the 9-1-1 emergency line
instantly.
------------------

No description of the assailant was given.

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 11 00:03:44 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 17:03:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?

Hi,

>  This morning I learned that a homeless guy snuck up behind a 
> pedestrian on  that trail and stabbed him.  It wasn?t even a robbery, just
a random attack.
>  The victim is expected to survive, but they didn?t catch the perp and 
> have  no useful description of him or her.

Just curious: if there's no useful description, and if there's no apparent
motivation for the attack, how can you know that the attacker was homeless?
Did it not occur that homeless people are often victimized, and are much
more often than not poorly served by the police?

John
_______________________________________________



Ja, that is a possibility: a homeful crazy guy stabbed somebody, then ran
underneath the underpass where the homeless people camp to blame them.

spike


From john at ziaspace.com  Wed Oct 11 00:19:04 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 00:19:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>

> Ja, that is a possibility: a homeful crazy guy stabbed somebody, then 
> ran underneath the underpass where the homeless people camp to blame 
> them.

I don't think we're so distant from homelessness that we can pretend we 
don't understand the difference between criminal and victim.

Crimes against homeless happen at a much higher rate than the general 
population. Criminals know cops aren't going to respond to complaints in a 
homeless encampment quickly. Criminals also know that homeless people 
living in an encampment will be reluctant to call the police unless it's 
absolutely necessary.

People blame homeless people for all sorts of things without facts and 
without understanding. How about we not do that?

John

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 11 00:32:29 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 17:32:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
Message-ID: <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of John Klos via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?

>>... Ja, that is a possibility: a homeful crazy guy stabbed somebody, then 
> ran underneath the underpass where the homeless people camp to blame 
> them.
...

>...People blame homeless people for all sorts of things without facts and
without understanding. How about we not do that?

John
_______________________________________________



OK fair enough.  

John do you have any ideas regarding that park in San Jose with the walking
trail that goes along the creek?  The best I could think of was put up a
chain link fence along that creek to separate the encampment from the park.
That might be the ideal situation, because the homeless who live along that
creek are not actually hurting anything there, and the city is likely to let
them stay, so long as they don't commit random violence against the
pedestrians in the park.

I still don't know how we should deal with that refurbished park map the
scout made which shows the trail down along the creek and no indication
there is danger in walking there.

spike


From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Oct 11 07:31:45 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:31:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 14, 2023
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfDTXzFOidnJH+G-H79sUjaf9PpwRQktAPZeD-U6F-k4w@mail.gmail.com>

Mark your calendar! At the Terasem Colloquium on December 14, 2023,
10am-1pm ET via Zoom, stellar speakers will explore recent AI
developments (ChatGPT & all that), machine consciousness, and the
nature of consciousness. You are invited!
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/terasem-colloquium-december-14-2023

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 11 11:28:20 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 12:28:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 at 01:34, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> John do you have any ideas regarding that park in San Jose with the walking
> trail that goes along the creek?  The best I could think of was put up a
> chain link fence along that creek to separate the encampment from the park.
> That might be the ideal situation, because the homeless who live along that
> creek are not actually hurting anything there, and the city is likely to let
> them stay, so long as they don't commit random violence against the
> pedestrians in the park.
>
> I still don't know how we should deal with that refurbished park map the
> scout made which shows the trail down along the creek and no indication
> there is danger in walking there.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Many public parks do have fences or walls and are closed at night.
Restrictions vary by locality and city. So there should be no legal
problems with installing some fencing.
However, the homeless are "people" and have a perfect right to enter
public parks during normal opening hours. So attempting to wall them
off from entering the park is probably a bad idea.
Also, the local community would likely want to keep access to the trail
by the creek from the park.

Regarding the park map, perhaps the homeless camp area could be marked
and a note added at the foot of the map. Perhaps just something like
"Homeless camp site ? Caution advised". Though the local council might
object to this giving the site some kind of 'official' status.



BillK


From efc at swisscows.email  Wed Oct 11 11:43:59 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 13:43:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
Message-ID: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>

Hello dear list members,

As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the 
massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.

To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights 
holder of this book (relative of the original author who
sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.

I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on 
this list are science fiction authors.

If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private 
with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
project of getting this book published in english?

Best regards,
Daniel






From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 11 12:59:27 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 05:59:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d9fc42$c52ea5b0$4f8bf110$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
.... _______________________________________________


>...Many public parks do have fences or walls and are closed at night.
Restrictions vary by locality and city. So there should be no legal problems with installing some fencing.
However, the homeless are "people" and have a perfect right to enter public parks during normal opening hours. So attempting to wall them off from entering the park is probably a bad idea.
Also, the local community would likely want to keep access to the trail by the creek from the park.

>...Regarding the park map, perhaps the homeless camp area could be marked and a note added at the foot of the map. Perhaps just something like "Homeless camp site ? Caution advised". Though the local council might object to this giving the site some kind of 'official' status.

BillK_______________________________________________



BillK, the scouts only go out to that park in the summer, so expect a huge battle over the park to unfold while they are in school.  There are many locals who have watched the homeless camp grow, who want it out of there.  Others see the entire area as an ideal place to hand over to the homeless.  It is big enough, one could imagine thousands of tents in there, rather than a few hundred housed landowners using that park.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Oct 11 15:48:55 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:48:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRQUAdmyvNu-Ny3Ft7RR72PQzuhmKVtJ4nzXmE5txOj7Q@mail.gmail.com>

As one such author: sure, go ahead.

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:45 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello dear list members,
>
> As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the
> massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
> swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
>
> To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights
> holder of this book (relative of the original author who
> sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
>
> I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on
> this list are science fiction authors.
>
> If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private
> with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
> project of getting this book published in english?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 11 15:54:51 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:54:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007901d9fc5b$45a401a0$d0ec04e0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat

...

>...Many public parks do have fences or walls and are closed at night....
BillK

_______________________________________________



Hi BillK,

Do allow please for my engineering background as an excuse for treating a social problem from an engineer's perspective, with the San Jose Berryessa Creek Park as the object which needs repair or re-engineering.  For now, I will not deal with Cataldi Park near there, which has a similar problem, with transients gradually taking it over, and the locals most dissatisfied with that situation.

The problem is in some ways related to aircraft.  If it sounds like I am changing the subject, follow along for a few sentences please.  Think of a jet engine and its fuel, which is a low-grade kerosene, not that different from the Diesel fuel that trucks burn.  If you see two trucks, same model and size going side by side up a hill with one of them belching dirty brown smoke and the other just slightly-visible exhaust, you know that the first truck is heavily loaded and the second one is going home empty.  Aircraft have a different engine, but it has similar output in a way: if an aircraft is heavily loaded, climbing out, the pilot is on the throttle, balls to the wall, lots of brown smoke, easy to see, but if the aircraft is on a long glide home on trailing throttle, there is little smoke.

OK cool, now go to Google satellite view of San Jose Mineta International airport and notice what is on the southeast end of that runway, Guadlupe Park and notice that which is visible with the resolution of that photo.  Everything under the flightline north of Coleman Avenue has long since been condemned for residential use, and the remaining homes removed, a long time ago.  

Result: if homes are taken out, homeless people move in.  Naturally.  They did.  All that area enclosed by Taylor Street, Coleman Ave, the freeway and the airport was a big homeless camp.  Nobody cared much, since it provided a great Elsewhere for the homeless.  Outta (me) sight, outta (my) mind.  

But then... the federal authorities stepped in, pointed out that even on trailing throttle, aircraft engines produce some soot, buckyballs mostly, which settle out on whatever is below, which is why cars left for a few weeks in long term parking at San Jose Minetta are a grimy mess when you get back and why travelers know to carry a bottle of Windex and rags.  The soot settles in the flight path of every flight, mostly outbound but some on inbound, flights which come in every few minutes all day long, 365 days a year into Mineta.  The FAA recognized that the fine particulate carbon soot settles deep in the lungs and may be a carcinogen because there are unburned hydrocarbons and benzines and other nasties which stick to the mostly-benign carbon (well duh.)  This poses a danger to those who live directly under that flight line, which are the few hundred to perhaps a coupla thousand homeless people who make that area their homeless.

Logical step: the FAA demands the city of San Jose remove those homeless people Elsewhere, or Else.  Hmmm OK.  Where is Elsewhere please, and what is Else?  San Jose wants to know what is Else and where is it located?  If San Jose knew, it would cheerfully comply.

Over the past five years, San Jose made an admirable and mighty effort to move the flightline homeless and remove the debris, but as soon as they did, fresh new homeless people arrived with fresh new debris.  The area is more sparsely populated than before, but you can see from the freeway or from the Google sat view there are still tents, junky old vans, cars and campers in which people are living down there under the flightline.  The only difference is that now some of them have been moved Elsewhere, such as... Berryessa Creek Park and Cataldi Park, as well as pretty much everywhere along the Guadalupe River.  Simplification: go to Google sat view in San Jose.  Anywhere you see a dense row of trees is a river or stream with water year around.  Along that river or stream underneath those trees, people are living there, with no Elsewhere to go.

Now after that breezy introduction which meandered thru jet engines and carbon soot, here is my proposal: we would be OK if we get San Jose to buy Moffett Field from NASA, move Minetta Airport over to Moffett, hand the San Jose airport over to the homeless, rename it Elsewhere, move the existing homeless south of the freeway and those currently living homeless in Cataldi Park and Berryessa Park onto the current airport grounds, done.  There is room for all of them plus a few thousand more, supply them with tents, problem solved.  For a while.

spike







From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Oct 11 16:27:05 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:27:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <007901d9fc5b$45a401a0$d0ec04e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d9fc5b$45a401a0$d0ec04e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQjA8McQOjXviDtxgOJQ+QV1CNM1i1dsjRsa=C0DF6hCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 8:56?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> we would be OK if we get San Jose to buy Moffett Field from NASA,


As a fellow resident of the area: ain't happening.  Way too many interests,
government and high-money, with their hands in Moffett staying the way it
is.


> move Minetta Airport over to Moffett,


Even more impossible.  The neighboring cities (and, again, their high-money
private interests) would get the courts to throw out any such attempt.

These two problems are independent of the attempt to deal with the
homeless.  You couldn't even use Moffett for a Palo Alto Airport grade
private aviation field at this point.

I wonder if a shelter, possibly underground (or under the current ground
level), with good HVAC could address the problem.
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From john at ziaspace.com  Wed Oct 11 16:28:03 2023
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 16:28:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <c2de78e6-139f-f815-2fef-86ebfc6a5704@newbunny.zia.io>

Hello,

> OK fair enough.
>
> John do you have any ideas regarding that park in San Jose with the 
> walking trail that goes along the creek?  The best I could think of was 
> put up a chain link fence along that creek to separate the encampment 
> from the park. That might be the ideal situation, because the homeless 
> who live along that creek are not actually hurting anything there, and 
> the city is likely to let them stay, so long as they don't commit random 
> violence against the pedestrians in the park.

Information is good.

Getting a fence put up in a park is one of those things that could be as 
simple as asking the right parks person or could just as easily be one of 
those Kafka-esque never ending nightmares of bureaucracy, so I'd write a 
letter and send it to people who might be in a position to do something, 
but I'd assume it might never happen and wouldn't put much time in to it 
beyond that.

> I still don't know how we should deal with that refurbished park map the 
> scout made which shows the trail down along the creek and no indication 
> there is danger in walking there.

For the map, I'd recommend contacting a printing place or two and pricing 
some pre-printed Post-it pads with a small segment of the map showing the 
encampment with some notes telling people about it. I'd deliberately not 
use language intended to scare, but intended to inform. Some people will 
use that information to avoid the area, and others will use that in 
positive ways, like offering food, clothing, services.

We have a tendency in this country to accept problems framed in ridiculous 
ways. For instance, people will tell you that a hospital has to charge 
$10,000 a night for an emergency room visit because of a wild assortment 
of assumptions that really should be questioned: How will they pay for 
"insurance"? How will they pay for administration? How will they pay for 
their investment in multimillion dollar MRI scanners and such?

It's a game, because every uninsured person who stays overnight during an 
emergency room visit means a $10k writeoff for the hospital.

In reality, we can change those underlying assumptions: change the laws 
about liability to discourage abuse of litigation, limit administration so 
it isn't literally a third of our costs, disincentivize extortion 
level pricing and incentivize return on investment by actually using a 
thing. This is why it's possible to go to Mexico and get an MRI for less 
than it'd cost you to get dental x-rays here in the US.

How does that apply to homelessness? Let's look at assumptions: One of the 
biggest is that if we simply offer homes to homeless, it will cost too 
much. That, of course, assumes the government has to pay fair market 
value, has to pay property taxes, et cetera, which, when one thinks about 
it, is pretty stupid.

Finland's ability to offer homes to homeless isn't based on some radically 
different market. It's based on the idea that Finns consider people, 
including homeless people, humans, and they treat people as humans. They 
don't seek to punish people, they don't seek to stigmatize social 
services, and they don't seek to make providing services a profit center 
for people who already have too much money.

We can't do that in the United States because most of us don't see 
homeless as people. You can interview people in the street who'd be more 
than happy to see homeless be put on some random train to who-knows-where 
rather than keep them where they are. There are other times in history 
when people were offered the choice to keep people around or have them 
stuck on trains and carted off elsewhere, and guess what people chose?

We won't fix homelessness by trying to make a profit off of them.

John

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 11 16:40:04 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 09:40:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQjA8McQOjXviDtxgOJQ+QV1CNM1i1dsjRsa=C0DF6hCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d9fc5b$45a401a0$d0ec04e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQjA8McQOjXviDtxgOJQ+QV1CNM1i1dsjRsa=C0DF6hCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008b01d9fc61$96f92d40$c4eb87c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>? Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] what would you do?

 

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 8:56?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

we would be OK if we get San Jose to buy Moffett Field from NASA,

 

>?As a fellow resident of the area: ain't happening.  Way too many interests, government and high-money, with their hands in Moffett staying the way it is?

 

 

Adrian I agree, for now.  But note my prediction: others will study the map and the homeless problem, and the idea of moving Mineta to Moffett will be back, repeatedly.  It will face many roadblocks, but my prediction is that in your young lifetime Adrian, and possibly in mine, the city of San Jose and the FAA and NASA will recognize the Mineta to Moffett solution is the least wrong alternative.

 

I recognize the difficulties but also the advantages to that approach.  For instance, Adrian you live over in the good neighborhoods under the outbound flightline, with the noise and increased soot of outgoing flights with throttles open.  If the planes flew outta Moffett, the noisy dirty phase of flight would all be out over the bay.  You (and I) would be more under the incoming flightline, which is quieter and cleaner.

 

 

move Minetta Airport over to Moffett,

 

 

So? I predict Adrian, in your natural lifetime on this mortal coil, the Mineta to Moffett notion will gain momentum.  Remember you heard it first right here. 

 

>?Even more impossible.  The neighboring cities (and, again, their high-money private interests) would get the courts to throw out any such attempt?

 

For now, ja.  But notice Santa Clara between Mineta and Moffett.  I used to live there.  I would be happy with the move.  That was the community most effected, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, those areas.

 

>?These two problems are independent of the attempt to deal with the homeless.  You couldn't even use Moffett for a Palo Alto Airport grade private aviation field at this point?

 

Using Moffett Field for that purpose would be a scandalous waste.

 

>?I wonder if a shelter, possibly underground (or under the current ground level), with good HVAC could address the problem?.

 

Do try to imagine the cost of that, any reasonable estimate, compared to the present (expensive) approach: buying distressed hotels and using them for homeless shelters.  It is much more likely that a big airfield will be converted to a homeless camp at little cost to the city.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Oct 11 17:02:44 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:02:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <008b01d9fc61$96f92d40$c4eb87c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
 <45714185-0bde-8219-c650-42ae01b111b8@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011c01d9fbda$6b86f7f0$4294e7d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhpVohVf6xXWRkCFtVK0SYqg_hyRPnxi_jzxotkdZRGpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901d9fc5b$45a401a0$d0ec04e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQjA8McQOjXviDtxgOJQ+QV1CNM1i1dsjRsa=C0DF6hCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008b01d9fc61$96f92d40$c4eb87c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS3q=seLFdbd8fCUrfrX9ut5nMf2hTrXc=TBqQZp5CW1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 9:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *>? *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] what would you do?
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 8:56?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> we would be OK if we get San Jose to buy Moffett Field from NASA,
>
>
>
> >?As a fellow resident of the area: ain't happening.  Way too many
> interests, government and high-money, with their hands in Moffett staying
> the way it is?
>
>
>
>
>
> Adrian I agree, for now.  But note my prediction: others will study the
> map and the homeless problem, and the idea of moving Mineta to Moffett will
> be back, repeatedly.  It will face many roadblocks, but my prediction is
> that in your young lifetime Adrian, and possibly in mine, the city of San
> Jose and the FAA and NASA will recognize the Mineta to Moffett solution is
> the least wrong alternative.
>

The moneyed interests would sooner make homelessness a capital crime, with
death penalty strictly enforced, than allow that to happen.

>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Wed Oct 11 20:40:43 2023
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 13:40:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdPpY1HeTCm1HbrtXngEwDyi+qCCqpLnygg_3WtT+Rffg@mail.gmail.com>

It depends on the book but if you are interested in an Italian translation
let me know.
Giovanni

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 4:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hello dear list members,
>
> As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the
> massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
> swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
>
> To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights
> holder of this book (relative of the original author who
> sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
>
> I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on
> this list are science fiction authors.
>
> If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private
> with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
> project of getting this book published in english?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Wed Oct 11 21:24:47 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 23:24:47 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRQUAdmyvNu-Ny3Ft7RR72PQzuhmKVtJ4nzXmE5txOj7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
 <CALAdGNRQUAdmyvNu-Ny3Ft7RR72PQzuhmKVtJ4nzXmE5txOj7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b391fdab-d284-3a3c-e5d4-bfd6e8656371@swisscows.email>

Thank you very much Adrian, will send a private message.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

> As one such author: sure, go ahead.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 4:45 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Hello dear list members,
>
>       As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the
>       massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
>       swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
>
>       To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights
>       holder of this book (relative of the original author who
>       sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
>
>       I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on
>       this list are science fiction authors.
>
>       If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private
>       with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
>       project of getting this book published in english?
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Wed Oct 11 21:25:14 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 23:25:14 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPdPpY1HeTCm1HbrtXngEwDyi+qCCqpLnygg_3WtT+Rffg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
 <CAL+RtPdPpY1HeTCm1HbrtXngEwDyi+qCCqpLnygg_3WtT+Rffg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0230ff5d-a94f-985f-4d95-13df92beb116@swisscows.email>

And thank you Giovanni, will send a private message to you as well.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:

> It depends on the book but if you are interested in an Italian translation let me know.Giovanni??
> 
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 4:45?AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       Hello dear list members,
>
>       As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the
>       massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
>       swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
>
>       To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights
>       holder of this book (relative of the original author who
>       sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
>
>       I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on
>       this list are science fiction authors.
>
>       If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private
>       with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
>       project of getting this book published in english?
>
>       Best regards,
>       Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From gadersd at gmail.com  Thu Oct 12 00:09:44 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:09:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <31F9C7C2-9A61-4561-A3D1-EB55F03E1843@gmail.com>

GPT 4 is capable of translating the book into just about any language. I wonder how the quality would compare to that of a professional author? It would be an interesting experiment. Assuming the book is 100,000 words it would cost about $32 to translate it with GPT 4.

> On Oct 11, 2023, at 7:43 AM, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello dear list members,
> 
> As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
> swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
> 
> To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights holder of this book (relative of the original author who
> sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
> 
> I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on this list are science fiction authors.
> 
> If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
> project of getting this book published in english?
> 
> Best regards,
> Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Oct 12 01:04:24 2023
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 18:04:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <31F9C7C2-9A61-4561-A3D1-EB55F03E1843@gmail.com>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
 <31F9C7C2-9A61-4561-A3D1-EB55F03E1843@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfybwATp7-vVKbKm_8cwNc=+9jmSLx3Bu8f6_bATFK8Cg@mail.gmail.com>

The translation into Italian would be good from a technical perspective but
most of the poetic meaning in the writing would be lost in translation.
I tried translating with GPT-4 several Italian songs and I had to revisit
the translation to convey better the meaning. Dialogue or poetry is more
difficult to translate for GPT-4.
Giovanni

On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 5:11?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> GPT 4 is capable of translating the book into just about any language. I
> wonder how the quality would compare to that of a professional author? It
> would be an interesting experiment. Assuming the book is 100,000 words it
> would cost about $32 to translate it with GPT 4.
>
> > On Oct 11, 2023, at 7:43 AM, efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello dear list members,
> >
> > As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through
> the massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced a favourite
> > swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
> >
> > To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the
> rights holder of this book (relative of the original author who
> > sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
> >
> > I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers)
> on this list are science fiction authors.
> >
> > If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private
> with some questions and for some advice when it comes to the
> > project of getting this book published in english?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Oct 12 05:41:06 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 07:41:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Podcast: A conversation on Elon Musk and his recent biography
 by Walter Isaacson.
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydot=Ubh69xP9EwZ+X_ENCc=kywYcd_=n9c4-O_nsQ7Lw@mail.gmail.com>

Turing Church podcast. A conversation on Elon Musk and his recent
biography by Walter Isaacson. Trigger warning: unrepentant,
unapologetic praise for Elon Musk. Occupy Mars!
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/a-conversation-on-elon-musk-and-his

From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Oct 12 07:46:34 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:46:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Looking for a science fiction author.
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfybwATp7-vVKbKm_8cwNc=+9jmSLx3Bu8f6_bATFK8Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e6126a89-cac5-e022-3080-308ac37e5d17@swisscows.email>
 <31F9C7C2-9A61-4561-A3D1-EB55F03E1843@gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPfybwATp7-vVKbKm_8cwNc=+9jmSLx3Bu8f6_bATFK8Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bda28e25-8b21-5736-5b3d-bf3e9e497220@swisscows.email>

Translating into swedish suffers a similar fate. Corporate texts come out 
ok, but poetry not so much. On the other hand, when it comes to 
translating from swedish to english I have no idea.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat wrote:

> The translation into Italian would be good from a technical perspective but most of the poetic meaning in the writing would be
> lost?in translation.?
> I tried translating with GPT-4 several Italian songs and I had to revisit the translation to convey better the meaning. Dialogue or
> poetry is more difficult to translate for GPT-4.?
> Giovanni?
> 
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 5:11?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       GPT 4 is capable of translating the book into just about any language. I wonder how the quality would compare to that of
>       a professional author? It would be an interesting experiment. Assuming the book is 100,000 words it would cost about $32
>       to translate it with GPT 4.
>
>       > On Oct 11, 2023, at 7:43 AM, efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>       >
>       > Hello dear list members,
>       >
>       > As some of you might have noticed (the ones who managed to get through the massive multiple worlds thread) I referenced
>       a favourite
>       > swedish science fiction book of mine that never was published in english.
>       >
>       > To my great delight, I now managed to initiate a dialogue with the rights holder of this book (relative of the original
>       author who
>       > sadly is no longer with us) about translating it into english.
>       >
>       > I have a vague memory that one (or more) regular readers (and writers) on this list are science fiction authors.
>       >
>       > If so, I wonder if it would be possible to write you an email in private with some questions and for some advice when
>       it comes to the
>       > project of getting this book published in english?
>       >
>       > Best regards,
>       > Daniel
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       > _______________________________________________
>       > extropy-chat mailing list
>       > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       extropy-chat mailing list
>       extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>       http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
>

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Thu Oct 12 04:43:18 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 22:43:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] what would you do?
In-Reply-To: <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
References: <6b9a025a-120f-3161-2997-41ebd0f27473@newbunny.zia.io>
 <011601d9fbd6$67335210$3599f630$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnA48QpyQamoMjwLjFkRFErX+mY1s1o_xG7Qg1sjarbdoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 6:04?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Did it not occur that homeless people are often victimized, and are much
> more often than not poorly served by the police?

About a year ago, I moved away from Las Vegas. Interesting place with
regards to homeless because it rarely gets cold enough to die from
exposure there. Henderson passed a city ordinance that no homeless
people were allowed within some number of feet of a city park, then
built so many city parks that there were no spaces in between where a
homeless person could legally set up business. It worked well in
reducing the homeless population in that city.

Las Vegas, on the other hand, has so many homeless people that it is
difficult to go five minutes without encountering them. They set fire
to my shop dumpster a couple of times while I was there. They loved
stealing ice from the next door neighbor's trash (he had a business
selling snow in Vegas... awesome... but a different thread.) and
generally loved stealing things from local businesses when they could
get away with it.

I went down in the tunnels a couple of times to visit with the
permanent homeless that live down there. Despite the occasional flash
flood death, it's probably one of the better places for homeless
people in the USA. They are largely out of sight of the tourists
there, and enjoy the good weather underground. It's obviously too hot
to be upstairs much of the summer.

The thing that made me want to post though was the stupidity of the
government there. Some enterprising bleeding-heart types built about a
hundred tiny homes and made them available to the homeless. Since they
didn't meet the zoning requirements for a minimum sized house,
however, the city bulldozed them... quietly... after a group of
demonstrators stood in front of the dozers Arthur Dent style... I
can't quite understand the hate for tiny homes for the homeless. It's
like denying cancer patients drugs because they aren't tested. The
government is putting up a great fight against the fundamentalist
Christians to decide which is more idiotic.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 12 23:49:55 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 00:49:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?The_=E2=80=9Cgreat_gate_in_history=E2=80=9D_of_S?=
 =?utf-8?q?trauss_and_Howe?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>

THE FOURTH TURNING IS HERE
WHAT THE SEASONS OF HISTORY TELL US ABOUT HOW AND WHEN THIS CRISIS WILL END
by Neil Howe ? RELEASE DATE: July 18, 2023

A fascinating work of global history and look to the future
Review here:
<
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/neil-howe/the-fourth-turning-is-here/
>
-----------------

I asked an AI for an opinion as well -

*The Fourth Turning Is Here: Understanding the Current Historical Cycle and
Its Implications*

Straightforwardly answering the question of whether or not the fourth
turning is here requires a deep understanding of the concept of the Fourth
Turning and its application to current events. To provide a comprehensive
answer, we will delve into the theory of the Fourth Turning, its historical
context, and the evidence supporting the idea that we are currently in the
midst of a Fourth Turning.

The Fourth Turning, a concept introduced by William Strauss and Neil Howe
in their book "The Fourth Turning: An American Prophecy," is a recurring
cycle of historical events that unfold every 80-100 years. This cycle is
characterized by four distinct turning points, each with its own unique
characteristics and impact on society. The four turnings are:

1. *High*: A period of optimism, growth, and conformity, marked by a strong
sense of national unity and collective purpose. Examples of high turnings
include the post-World War II era and the late 19th century.
2. *Awakening*: A period of questioning authority, challenging the status
quo, and seeking new experiences and perspectives. Examples of awakenings
include the 1960s and the early 19th century.
3. *Unraveling*: A period of decline and disillusionment, marked by a loss
of faith in institutions and social norms. Examples of unravelings include
the 1920s and the late 18th century.
4. *Crisis*: A period of upheaval and transformation, marked by a complete
breakdown of the old order and the emergence of a new one. Examples of
crises include the Great Depression and the American Revolution.

According to Strauss and Howe, we are currently in the early stages of a
Fourth Turning, which began around 2008 and is expected to last until
around 2030. This turning is characterized by an unraveling of the social
and economic order, followed by a crisis that will lead to the emergence of
a new order.

So, is the fourth turning here? The answer is yes, and the evidence
supporting this claim is multifaceted.

Firstly, the current era is marked by a growing sense of disillusionment
with institutions and social norms, which is a hallmark of an unraveling.
This disillusionment is evident in the rising levels of political
polarization, the decline of trust in the media and government, and the
growing popularity of anti-establishment movements.

Secondly, the current era is characterized by a series of crises, including
the COVID-19 pandemic, climate change, and economic inequality. These
crises are symptomatic of the unraveling phase of the Fourth Turning and
are likely to continue and intensify in the coming years.

Thirdly, the current era is marked by a growing sense of nationalism and
xenophobia, which is a hallmark of the awakening phase of the Fourth
Turning. This is evident in the rise of populist movements and the
increasing tensions between nations.

Finally, the current era is characterized by a growing sense of
generational conflict, which is a hallmark of the Fourth Turning. This is
evident in the rising levels of student debt, the decline of the
traditional family, and the growing divide between the old and the young.

In conclusion, the fourth turning is here, and the evidence supporting this
claim is multifaceted. The current era is marked by a growing sense of
disillusionment, a series of crises, a growing sense of nationalism and
xenophobia, and a growing sense of generational conflict. Understanding the
Fourth Turning and its implications can help us navigate the challenges and
opportunities of the current era and prepare for the transformative changes
that are to come.
------------------------


Hmmm.  Food for thought......

BillK
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Oct 13 05:20:34 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 07:20:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] New PDFs of Extropy Magazine with OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycJjjS+T_U7WSY_n_MezvCRqCYFwHOc5durr0KqL1Q2ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycJjjS+T_U7WSY_n_MezvCRqCYFwHOc5durr0KqL1Q2ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycfdzL7EHZaUVBT0P7y+5kUs-=ynd+agAikm-ktULxRSg@mail.gmail.com>

I produced a single downloadable PDF with all issues #1-#17 of the
Extropy Magazine, slightly compressed (223 MB). The text is searchable
and copyable (95+ percent).

Download link: https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy/blob/master/Extropy%231-%2317-ocr.pdf

If you have better scans of the individual issues, please upload them
to https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy

On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 7:08?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I uploaded to the github repository Extropians/Extropy the full  sets
> of PDFs of the Extropy Magazine, now with OCR, produced by Alessio
> Pecoraro. I've been checking them to make sure the text is searchable
> and copyable,  and so far it seems that yes, 98+ percent of the text
> is searchable and copyable, with the exception of a few points where
> the quality of the PDF scans was too poor. I'll produce a single
> downloadable PDF with all issues, but first, please do a couple of
> random checks (search for text, copy/paste text) and let me know.
> https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy


From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Oct 13 10:05:13 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 12:05:13 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?The_=E2=80=9Cgreat_gate_in_history=E2=80=9D_of_S?=
 =?utf-8?q?trauss_and_Howe?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>

Hello Bill,

I'm not a big fan of doom prophecies myself, but something to keep in mind 
when it comes to economic inequality is that globally, we've never been 
richer and never had it better (see the book "In defense of global 
capitalism", 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Defense_of_Global_Capitalism).

So a trend throughout history seems to be (if you can ever speak about 
historical trends that is) that we do progress with the help of 
capitalism and free markets, and local downward trends seem to appear when 
ever we move away from that to more authoritarian ideas.

So curently we are experiencing a bit of turbulence but I am certain that 
after a few years of turbulence, we'll resume are growth trip again. =)

Best regards,
Daniel


On Fri, 13 Oct 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> THE FOURTH TURNING IS HERE
> WHAT THE SEASONS OF HISTORY TELL US ABOUT HOW AND WHEN THIS CRISIS WILL END
> by Neil Howe ? RELEASE DATE: July 18, 2023
> 
> A fascinating work of global history and look to the future
> Review here:
> <https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/neil-howe/the-fourth-turning-is-here/>
> -----------------
> 
> I asked an AI for an opinion as well -
> 
> The Fourth Turning Is Here: Understanding the Current Historical Cycle and Its Implications
> 
> Straightforwardly answering the question of whether or not the fourth turning is here requires a deep understanding of the concept of
> the Fourth Turning and its application to current events. To provide a comprehensive answer, we will delve into the theory of the
> Fourth Turning, its historical context, and the evidence supporting the idea that we are currently in the midst of a Fourth Turning.
> 
> The Fourth Turning, a concept introduced by William Strauss and Neil Howe in their book "The Fourth Turning: An American Prophecy,"
> is a recurring cycle of historical events that unfold every 80-100 years. This cycle is characterized by four distinct turning
> points, each with its own unique characteristics and impact on society. The four turnings are:
> 
> 1. High: A period of optimism, growth, and conformity, marked by a strong sense of national unity and collective purpose. Examples of
> high turnings include the post-World War II era and the late 19th century.
> 2. Awakening: A period of questioning authority, challenging the status quo, and seeking new experiences and perspectives. Examples
> of awakenings include the 1960s and the early 19th century.
> 3. Unraveling: A period of decline and disillusionment, marked by a loss of faith in institutions and social norms. Examples of
> unravelings include the 1920s and the late 18th century.
> 4. Crisis: A period of upheaval and transformation, marked by a complete breakdown of the old order and the emergence of a new one.
> Examples of crises include the Great Depression and the American Revolution.
> 
> According to Strauss and Howe, we are currently in the early stages of a Fourth Turning, which began around 2008 and is expected to
> last until around 2030. This turning is characterized by an unraveling of the social and economic order, followed by a crisis that
> will lead to the emergence of a new order.
> 
> So, is the fourth turning here? The answer is yes, and the evidence supporting this claim is multifaceted.
> 
> Firstly, the current era is marked by a growing sense of disillusionment with institutions and social norms, which is a hallmark of
> an unraveling. This disillusionment is evident in the rising levels of political polarization, the decline of trust in the media and
> government, and the growing popularity of anti-establishment movements.
> 
> Secondly, the current era is characterized by a series of crises, including the COVID-19 pandemic, climate change, and economic
> inequality. These crises are symptomatic of the unraveling phase of the Fourth Turning and are likely to continue and intensify in
> the coming years.
> 
> Thirdly, the current era is marked by a growing sense of nationalism and xenophobia, which is a hallmark of the awakening phase of
> the Fourth Turning. This is evident in the rise of populist movements and the increasing tensions between nations.
> 
> Finally, the current era is characterized by a growing sense of generational conflict, which is a hallmark of the Fourth Turning.
> This is evident in the rising levels of student debt, the decline of the traditional family, and the growing divide between the old
> and the young.
> 
> In conclusion, the fourth turning is here, and the evidence supporting this claim is multifaceted. The current era is marked by a
> growing sense of disillusionment, a series of crises, a growing sense of nationalism and xenophobia, and a growing sense of
> generational conflict. Understanding the Fourth Turning and its implications can help us navigate the challenges and opportunities of
> the current era and prepare for the transformative changes that are to come.
> ------------------------
> 
> 
> Hmmm.? Food for thought......
> 
> BillK
> 
> 
> 
>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Oct 13 16:51:36 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:51:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?The_=E2=80=9Cgreat_gate_in_history=E2=80=9D_of_S?=
	=?utf-8?q?trauss_and_Howe?=
In-Reply-To: <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 at 11:07, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I'm not a big fan of doom prophecies myself, but something to keep in mind
> when it comes to economic inequality is that globally, we've never been
> richer and never had it better (see the book "In defense of global
> capitalism",
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Defense_of_Global_Capitalism).
>
> So a trend throughout history seems to be (if you can ever speak about
> historical trends that is) that we do progress with the help of
> capitalism and free markets, and local downward trends seem to appear when
> ever we move away from that to more authoritarian ideas.
>
> So curently we are experiencing a bit of turbulence but I am certain that
> after a few years of turbulence, we'll resume are growth trip again. =)
>
> Best regards, Daniel
>_______________________________________________


I wouldn't call Fourth Turning a doom prophecy.  :)
He is talking about generational cycles, lasting about 80 to 100 years.
This is when the older generation leaves the stage and are replaced by
the younger generation, who have different ideas, want to correct the
previous errors and try something different.
The claim is that we are in the fourth 'down' phase of the present cycle
and from about 2030 onwards, the new 'up' phase will start.

That doesn't necessarily mean another World War is imminent, but big
changes should be expected. The huge Western financial deficits will
never be repaid, so some form of 'debt write-off' upheaval will be required.
Political systems and economic systems may change, but we won't know
in advance how it will all turn out.


As an aside, you probably know that the book "In Defense of Global
Capitalism" has received some criticism. It was published in 2001.
This was from the 'up' phase of the present cycle, before the problems
of global capitalism were realised.

Some criticisms are that the book ignored problems such as:
degradation of the environment, including climate change,
deforestation, and pollution
increased income inequality
distortion of 'so-called' free markets in favour of the already rich.
Also, the book's focus on economic growth and prosperity ignored the
importance of other values, such as social justice, human rights, and
environmental sustainability.
---------

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct 13 18:07:58 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 11:07:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The "great gate in history" of Strauss and Howe
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01d9fe00$32dd0160$98970420$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
...


>...As an aside, you probably know that the book "In Defense of Global
Capitalism" has received some criticism. ...
---------

BillK
_______________________________________________


China discovered a version of capitalism in 1989 when the dear leader
realized that if the government failed to supply some capitalist goodies,
the commies were going rise up and strike off their dear heads.  I noticed
right after that unpleasantness, things began to change.  China managed to
lift a billion people out of poverty via limited capitalism, and now has a
bunch of new problems to deal with.

BillK, it is really interesting to hear all this from the perspective of
someone old enough to have witnessed firsthand the Great Leap Forward in the
mid 60s, such as my neighbors across the street.  After living in America
for nearly three decades, they still have a most unique perspective.  They
warn constantly that communism is coming to America, but Americans are just
not seeing it.  A former POTUS candidate stirred the bees once more with a
comment about cult deprogramming of the followers of the candidate who
defeated her.  Now, my neighbors are terrified.

spike


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 13 18:16:12 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 11:16:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The "great gate in history" of Strauss and Howe
In-Reply-To: <00fb01d9fe00$32dd0160$98970420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fb01d9fe00$32dd0160$98970420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6000nPN9D38w=gCnrWu7A8Gn9qmDDBVMc42qrTAKujpQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Now, my neighbors are terrified."

We live in a time unlike any other, where change is happening on a
scale short in terms of human generations.

I expect that technology will overrun human problems.  Exactly how or
how fast I can't say.  Lots of possibilities.

Keith

On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 11:09?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
> ...
>
>
> >...As an aside, you probably know that the book "In Defense of Global
> Capitalism" has received some criticism. ...
> ---------
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> China discovered a version of capitalism in 1989 when the dear leader
> realized that if the government failed to supply some capitalist goodies,
> the commies were going rise up and strike off their dear heads.  I noticed
> right after that unpleasantness, things began to change.  China managed to
> lift a billion people out of poverty via limited capitalism, and now has a
> bunch of new problems to deal with.
>
> BillK, it is really interesting to hear all this from the perspective of
> someone old enough to have witnessed firsthand the Great Leap Forward in the
> mid 60s, such as my neighbors across the street.  After living in America
> for nearly three decades, they still have a most unique perspective.  They
> warn constantly that communism is coming to America, but Americans are just
> not seeing it.  A former POTUS candidate stirred the bees once more with a
> comment about cult deprogramming of the followers of the candidate who
> defeated her.  Now, my neighbors are terrified.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct 13 18:53:32 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 11:53:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The "great gate in history" of Strauss and Howe
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6000nPN9D38w=gCnrWu7A8Gn9qmDDBVMc42qrTAKujpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fb01d9fe00$32dd0160$98970420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6000nPN9D38w=gCnrWu7A8Gn9qmDDBVMc42qrTAKujpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010c01d9fe06$91023480$b3069d80$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] The "great gate in history" of Strauss and Howe

>..."Now, my neighbors are terrified."

Ja.  The "cult deprogramming" comments translated to Vietnamese as "re-education camps."  This language was used to describe what the Vietnamese set up for the South Vietnamese after the fall of Saigon in 1975.  I have seen printed paper notes written in Vietnamese with a photo of that former politician.  I want to find one of those and have ChatGPT translate it.  My neighborhood still has a few elders who survived the re-education camps.

>...We live in a time unlike any other, where change is happening on a scale short in terms of human generations.

>...I expect that technology will overrun human problems.  Exactly how or how fast I can't say.  Lots of possibilities.

Keith


Keith we have long known this was coming, but when it arrived, it is happening quickly.

Headlines:

- US military needs AI vehicles, weapon systems to be 'superior' global force: experts
- Former Joint Chiefs Chair Gen Mark Milley warns AI could make wars more likely

Oy vey.

spike








From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Oct 14 04:56:50 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 06:56:50 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Re: New PDFs of Extropy Magazine with OCR
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0b8+C7137RhAQhy2v99vqETKLuzspAbKfORzmjopKNZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJycJjjS+T_U7WSY_n_MezvCRqCYFwHOc5durr0KqL1Q2ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycfdzL7EHZaUVBT0P7y+5kUs-=ynd+agAikm-ktULxRSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0b8+C7137RhAQhy2v99vqETKLuzspAbKfORzmjopKNZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydWsHN3B6qXaqgocjBJPMeRqQSSLXOs+OSgt8_e=EqnFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 7:12?PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Giulio!
>
>
>
>  It makes me nostalgic to be reminded what Extropy and the Extropian List
> used to be like.
>

I have that feeling now and then but I try to think that was the necessary,
preliminary dreaming phase. Now we are moving toward planning and doing
those things in the real world, which is messy and much harder. We had to
realize that the advances we want to see won't be easy and will take much
longer than we hoped. But this is real engineering in the real world!


>
> John K Clark
>
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 1:20?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I produced a single downloadable PDF with all issues #1-#17 of the
>> Extropy Magazine, slightly compressed (223 MB). The text is searchable
>> and copyable (95+ percent).
>>
>> Download link:
>> https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy/blob/master/Extropy%231-%2317-ocr.pdf
>>
>> If you have better scans of the individual issues, please upload them
>> to https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 7:08?AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I uploaded to the github repository Extropians/Extropy the full  sets
>> > of PDFs of the Extropy Magazine, now with OCR, produced by Alessio
>> > Pecoraro. I've been checking them to make sure the text is searchable
>> > and copyable,  and so far it seems that yes, 98+ percent of the text
>> > is searchable and copyable, with the exception of a few points where
>> > the quality of the PDF scans was too poor. I'll produce a single
>> > downloadable PDF with all issues, but first, please do a couple of
>> > random checks (search for text, copy/paste text) and let me know.
>> > https://github.com/Extropians/Extropy
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAKTCJycfdzL7EHZaUVBT0P7y%2B5kUs-%3Dynd%2BagAikm-ktULxRSg%40mail.gmail.com
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0b8%2BC7137RhAQhy2v99vqETKLuzspAbKfORzmjopKNZw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv0b8%2BC7137RhAQhy2v99vqETKLuzspAbKfORzmjopKNZw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Oct 14 12:35:11 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:35:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?The_=E2=80=9Cgreat_gate_in_history=E2=80=9D_of_S?=
 =?utf-8?q?trauss_and_Howe?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f6b6c8fb-b479-1f2b-dcbf-0f4ed478e2ed@swisscows.email>

Hello Bill,

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> I wouldn't call Fourth Turning a doom prophecy.  :)
> He is talking about generational cycles, lasting about 80 to 100 years.
> This is when the older generation leaves the stage and are replaced by
> the younger generation, who have different ideas, want to correct the

Ahh, thank you for the explanation. That sounds like a truism to me and
I thought it was obvious.

> previous errors and try something different.
> The claim is that we are in the fourth 'down' phase of the present cycle
> and from about 2030 onwards, the new 'up' phase will start.

Or like with socialism, some forget old bad ideas and try them again
with the same sad result every time. =(

> changes should be expected. The huge Western financial deficits will
> never be repaid, so some form of 'debt write-off' upheaval will be required.

When you say western, are you talking about US? In the EU there is a
pretty clear north/south split. I'm not saying that north is good but
the situation there, financially speaking, is much better than the
south.

> Political systems and economic systems may change, but we won't know
> in advance how it will all turn out.

True!

> As an aside, you probably know that the book "In Defense of Global
> Capitalism" has received some criticism. It was published in 2001.
> This was from the 'up' phase of the present cycle, before the problems
> of global capitalism were realised.

I have lived a big part of my life in sweden where critique of
capitalism is the national sport (it is a very socialist society). So
even if I haven't heard the specifics, the general themes are familiar
to me, and usually they fall in the categories of:

* Cherry picking
* Not a problem at all
* Something positive 
* A problem but without capitalism the problem would be worse
* A problem that will be fixed through technology.

> degradation of the environment, including climate change,

I do not believe that we're under imminent threat of a global
catastrophy. I do believe the climate has always changed and that we've
had more CO2 before. I also believe that being human beings with it
environmental problems (not including climate change) and that those
will be solved in time when we get richer and with better technology.

I can also add that socialism, especially the soviet style, makes any
climate problems capitalism has seem like paradise. The source of this
is first hand interviews and talks with people who lived in the soviet
union, and people who moved away from russia due to the bad environment.

> deforestation, and pollution

Also true of socialism. But, forrests grow back and pollution has been
fixed.

> increased income inequality

But greater quality of life for the majority, so please bring more
inequality.

> distortion of 'so-called' free markets in favour of the already rich.

This I accept. Much of what we see today is not free markets and many
rich people do bribe governments for their wealth. Semi-free markets
like we have today is of course preferable to non-free, but we need less
government power and involvement in markets and that of course will
decrease the nr of billionaires who build their wealth on government
business.

> Also, the book's focus on economic growth and prosperity ignored the
> importance of other values, such as social justice, human rights, and
> environmental sustainability.

Those follow with economic growth and prosperity because only when we
don't have to work 7 days a week can we afford to even care about that.
So one can say, without economic freedom, no justice, no human rights
and no environmental sustainability.

Best regards, 
Daniel


> ---------
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From efc at swisscows.email  Sat Oct 14 12:41:29 2023
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 14:41:29 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The "great gate in history" of Strauss and Howe
In-Reply-To: <00fb01d9fe00$32dd0160$98970420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgVxCeb1i=VkgfGP0+C6RwFgMBhzTXy4Jjwtyiw=dcL2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <ecb90105-7964-bded-a127-b50d3991d615@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armjoiquAB6b6cHZ17MfiTM46e0Fmd_FE9xryO-XOUB4Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fb01d9fe00$32dd0160$98970420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <03fbd951-cf52-34bd-e2b1-45d466e3a5fc@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:

> BillK, it is really interesting to hear all this from the perspective of
> someone old enough to have witnessed firsthand the Great Leap Forward in the
> mid 60s, such as my neighbors across the street.  After living in America
> for nearly three decades, they still have a most unique perspective.  They
> warn constantly that communism is coming to America, but Americans are just
> not seeing it.  A former POTUS candidate stirred the bees once more with a

I have only lived in america for a year, but I grew up in the end stage
of swedens velvet socialism and my wife was born in the soviet union and
her parents lived most of their lives unfree, and we share your
neighbours views.

There is no alternative to capitalism and freedom. Once you start to let
in the government you end up on a slippery slope that lead to hell.

When I grew up there was one public TV channel, 2 brands of beer and one
style of pizza. Since then, sweden has _slowly_ let go of some of its
socialism. Income inequality has grown, privatizations have increased
and taxes have come down to _only_ 60%-70% or so.

I prefer this any time any day over how life was when I was a child, and
so does everyone I know.

It therefore saddens me enormously when I meet americans who do not
believe in freedom and who believe the government is the solution. It is
not. But humans seem to love to repeat historical mistakes. =(

Best regards, 
Daniel


> comment about cult deprogramming of the followers of the candidate who
> defeated her.  Now, my neighbors are terrified.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct 15 09:23:04 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:23:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Simulations_of_=E2=80=98backwards_time_travel?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_can_improve_scientific_experiments?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armgbpEpO6MWfkztpAMD7Doh7SjsRwnAoXoBRq3=bGYCPAg@mail.gmail.com>

Physicists have shown that simulating models of hypothetical time
travel can solve experimental problems that appear impossible to solve
using standard physics.

<https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/simulations-of-backwards-time-travel-can-improve-scientific-experiments>

Quotes:
Researchers at the University of Cambridge have shown that by
manipulating entanglement ? a feature of quantum theory that causes
particles to be intrinsically linked ? they can simulate what could
happen if one could travel backwards in time.

By connecting their new theory to quantum metrology, which uses
quantum theory to make highly sensitive measurements, the Cambridge
team has shown that entanglement can solve problems that otherwise
seem impossible. The study appears in the journal Physical Review
Letters.

?We are not proposing a time travel machine, but rather a deep dive
into the fundamentals of quantum mechanics. These simulations do not
allow you to go back and alter your past, but they do allow you to
create a better tomorrow by fixing yesterday?s problems today,? said
Arvidsson-Shukur.
---------------------

(He then slipped sideways off his bar stool and lay on the floor
giggling hysterically). :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 16 15:41:12 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 08:41:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
Message-ID: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my diapers:

 

 



 

 

We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are always
abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now, if we
have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and still
be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a novel
to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name That
Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few words as
possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.

 

For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.

 

Answer: Les Miserables

 

spike

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 16:32:27 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 10:32:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>

Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my diapers:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>
>
>
> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
> tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.
>
>
>
> Answer: Les Miserables
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 16:52:08 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 10:52:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>

Nice.
So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?


On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my diapers:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>
>>
>>
>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
>> tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 18:52:57 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 11:52:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Simulations_of_=E2=80=98backwards_time_travel?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_can_improve_scientific_experiments?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgbpEpO6MWfkztpAMD7Doh7SjsRwnAoXoBRq3=bGYCPAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgbpEpO6MWfkztpAMD7Doh7SjsRwnAoXoBRq3=bGYCPAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTe__6Dv4hUAKKSs2sv4NC+25baB3yA46QF7qxfs82grA@mail.gmail.com>

If I read this correctly, they send a bunch of photons and then, after
finding out certain criteria, then apply filters to make sure that only the
photons matching those criteria make it through.

They seem to confuse "only the correct photons arrive" with "only the
correct photons were sent", overlooking that the filtered-out photons were
sent too.  The difference between simulated time travel and what they are
doing is the fates of the filtered-out photons.  The difference is enough
to break the simulation for most meaningful purposes.

I wouldn't call this a "deep dive", nor is this specific to quantum
mechanics.  On a macro scale (as in their "gift" analogy), if I know that I
will need one of four things but I do not yet know which one, I can
pre-arrange that one of each of those four will be where I need it when I
need it, and ignore the other three at that time, no temporal shenanigans
(simulated or otherwise) involved.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 2:25?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Physicists have shown that simulating models of hypothetical time
> travel can solve experimental problems that appear impossible to solve
> using standard physics.
>
> <
> https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/simulations-of-backwards-time-travel-can-improve-scientific-experiments
> >
>
> Quotes:
> Researchers at the University of Cambridge have shown that by
> manipulating entanglement ? a feature of quantum theory that causes
> particles to be intrinsically linked ? they can simulate what could
> happen if one could travel backwards in time.
>
> By connecting their new theory to quantum metrology, which uses
> quantum theory to make highly sensitive measurements, the Cambridge
> team has shown that entanglement can solve problems that otherwise
> seem impossible. The study appears in the journal Physical Review
> Letters.
>
> ?We are not proposing a time travel machine, but rather a deep dive
> into the fundamentals of quantum mechanics. These simulations do not
> allow you to go back and alter your past, but they do allow you to
> create a better tomorrow by fixing yesterday?s problems today,? said
> Arvidsson-Shukur.
> ---------------------
>
> (He then slipped sideways off his bar stool and lay on the floor
> giggling hysterically). :)
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 19:48:42 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 13:48:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>

"Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
"I dunno if I really want to!"
Then everyone dies.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Nice.
> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my diapers:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
>>> tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 20:20:56 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 16:20:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] QM is weirder than you think
In-Reply-To: <CAJvaNPnPGHGr9x7dtF23+EgRqzRzRQvV3pLsZP8eqOyv6ObXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJvaNPnPGHGr9x7dtF23+EgRqzRzRQvV3pLsZP8eqOyv6ObXTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhREUE4yt8x=UZk-SqxrRmGdhpbtcOzOROhfqk99baOpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:08 PM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com> wrote:

> I read this article hoping to learn something new and weirder about QM,
> but this is about what we agree is the weirdest, Jason.
>
> Quantum Physics Isn?t as Weird as You Think. It?s Weirder
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-isnt-as-weird-as-you-think-its-weirder/
>
> -gts
>

Thanks for the article. It is interesting and while I would say that
quantum mechanics is weird they did not do their best to explain these
ideas in ways that are prone for one to say "Ahh it makes more sense when
you describe it that way". I will try to do that below:


Uncertainty Principle:
This can be explained in a way that makes more sense if we explain it as a
consequence of the principle of information conservation (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-hiding_theorem ). As any increase in
certainty of one property of a quantum system (copying of information) then
must be followed by a corresponding increase in uncertainty (loss of
information) about other properties of that system. Think about it like a
computer with a fixed memory: if you want to store something new, you have
to overwrite memory locations for bits you had previously stored, and hence
you lose them. Uncertainty then, is not some grand mystery of QM, but a
consequence of physical systems having a fixed amount of information in
them.


Superposition:
This can be explained more easily as a consequence of determinism. The
universe is deterministic. When the same thing happens in the same way, the
same outcome results. When a photon hits a semisilvered mirror in the same
way, it doesn't reflect some times and pass through other times. Rather,
the same thing happens every time, the photon becomes superposed, it is in
a state of reflecting and passing through. Anything that interacts with
this photon will also become superposed, for instance, an electron in one
of the two paths can enter a state of having been struck and having not
been struck by this superposed photon. Superposition is merely an immediate
and necessary consequence of the universe being deterministic.


Entanglement:
Entanglement is probably the single most over hyped thing in quantum
mechanics as being some completely bizarre phenomenon, when it is nothing
beyond consistency of measurements. We express no shock when we measure
something, like the color of a toothbrush, then measure it again a few
seconds later and find it is still the same color as last time we measured
it. The mystery of consistent measurements over time is just as valid, and
no more than, the mystery of consistent measurements as they appear in
situations of entanglement, which is all entanglement concerns: the
consistency of measurements.


Tunnelling:
The uncertainty principle implies there's a non-zero probability of finding
any particular particle in any particular place. There is never absolute
100% certainty of finding it in one place (or even in any finite volume).
>From this it follows that there is a non-zero probability a particle may be
found anywhere, even on the other side of a barrier or the other side of
the solar system.


Measurement:
The article was wrong to say the equations of QM don't describe the process
of measurement. They do. The only problem is some people can't accept the
immediate and direct implication of this, which is that we ourselves (as
humans) become part of the superposition, and hence we "split" and
experience all the possible outcomes rather than any one definite result.
If one simply follows the equations and what they describe, this is what
happens. It is only those that deny this happens that have trouble defining
how the superposed possibilities get reduced to just a single outcome.


Jason
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 16 20:45:07 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 13:45:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007001da0071$a6909a90$f3b1cfb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Darin Sunley via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol

 

>?"Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"

"I dunno if I really want to!"

Then everyone dies?

 

 

 

Reference to Fortinbras in Hamlet?

 

I suck at literature.  It?s why I became an engineer instead.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 20:55:06 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 13:55:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>

Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone around
him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word
referenced his sled.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
> "I dunno if I really want to!"
> Then everyone dies.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Nice.
>> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my
>>>> diapers:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
>>>> tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 21:49:27 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:49:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAYiBEdA4ZwqZ_H7dMzkV9qE+Ys5KTsbtmXo=7T39Uxzw@mail.gmail.com>

But that's not even a book. Lol

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 2:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone
> around him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word
> referenced his sled.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
>> "I dunno if I really want to!"
>> Then everyone dies.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Nice.
>>> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my
>>>>> diapers:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
>>>>> tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 16 22:26:09 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:26:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Citizen Kane.  Too many clues Adrian.

(8-D

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone
> around him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word
> referenced his sled.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
>> "I dunno if I really want to!"
>> Then everyone dies.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Nice.
>>> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my
>>>>> diapers:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends years
>>>>> tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 16 22:28:52 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 15:28:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKRnsnxj+GkbvwxtspBS97o7VhJ6QPnizODT9v7QHCvrNm2ynw@mail.gmail.com>

Everything sucked.  So they moved to California.  Then everything sucked
worse than before.  spike

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 3:26 PM Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Citizen Kane.  Too many clues Adrian.
>
> (8-D
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone
>> around him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word
>> referenced his sled.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> "Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
>>> "I dunno if I really want to!"
>>> Then everyone dies.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice.
>>>> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my
>>>>>> diapers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>>>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>>>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>>>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>>>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>>>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>>>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends
>>>>>> years tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> spike
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 16 23:12:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 16:12:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnxj+GkbvwxtspBS97o7VhJ6QPnizODT9v7QHCvrNm2ynw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>	<CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>	<CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>	<CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>	<CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnxj+GkbvwxtspBS97o7VhJ6QPnizODT9v7QHCvrNm2ynw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d701da0086$47aabb40$d70031c0$@rainier66.com>

 

(8-D

 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>>?Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone around him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word referenced his sled.

 

 

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 3:26 PM Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

>?Citizen Kane.  Too many clues Adrian.  

 

>?Everything sucked.  So they moved to California.  Then everything sucked worse than before.  spike

 

 

 

 

Here?s another: She thought he sucked.  She gradually discovered he didn?t.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 16 23:41:35 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 16:41:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRwYxMgttGBJfS=nb6P3m2HHVEdHdHd3wEKC6oud+Zmtg@mail.gmail.com>

His story ended.  Then he had a bunch of adventures, before his story
finally began.

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 3:28?PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Citizen Kane.  Too many clues Adrian.
>
> (8-D
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone
>> around him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word
>> referenced his sled.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> "Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
>>> "I dunno if I really want to!"
>>> Then everyone dies.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice.
>>>> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my
>>>>>> diapers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>>>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>>>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>>>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>>>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>>>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>>>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends
>>>>>> years tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> spike
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 17 00:18:37 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 17:18:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRwYxMgttGBJfS=nb6P3m2HHVEdHdHd3wEKC6oud+Zmtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRwYxMgttGBJfS=nb6P3m2HHVEdHdHd3wEKC6oud+Zmtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f401da008f$79dab2b0$6d901810$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol

 

>?His story ended.  Then he had a bunch of adventures, before his story finally began? Adrian

 

Excellent puzzle Adrian.  I will see what the others can suggest, then offer a guess.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Tue Oct 17 01:02:53 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 19:02:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CAKRnsnxj+GkbvwxtspBS97o7VhJ6QPnizODT9v7QHCvrNm2ynw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnxj+GkbvwxtspBS97o7VhJ6QPnizODT9v7QHCvrNm2ynw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnD2+3Zg=OJB4_gQwkbqezjVRgiutxs_dppMycZ1FhYs_g@mail.gmail.com>

The Grapes of Wrath...

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 4:29?PM Gregory Jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Everything sucked.  So they moved to California.  Then everything sucked
> worse than before.  spike
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 3:26 PM Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>> Citizen Kane.  Too many clues Adrian.
>>
>> (8-D
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:56 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Rich man dies, recalling happy days in his poor childhood.  Everyone
>>> around him only knew him when he was rich and has no idea his dying word
>>> referenced his sled.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Your uncle killed me. Kill him!"
>>>> "I dunno if I really want to!"
>>>> Then everyone dies.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:54 AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nice.
>>>>> So now I can claim I've read Moby Dick and Les Miserables right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:33?AM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Big white whale plus OCD equals tragedy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:49?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My apologies, but this cartoon made me laugh out loud and wet my
>>>>>>> diapers:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We know of Readers Digest abridged versions of books, and movies are
>>>>>>> always abridged versions of the books from which they are derived.  So now,
>>>>>>> if we have AI to assist in the effort, how much can a story be abridged and
>>>>>>> still be recognizable?  If we allow illustrations as above, can we reduce a
>>>>>>> novel to six words?  Can we imagine a contest, a literature version of Name
>>>>>>> That Tune, where we try to describe a classic literature title in as few
>>>>>>> words as possible to see if our teammates can guess the story.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For instance: Bad guy escapes, turns good, Les Constables spends
>>>>>>> years tracking bad guy, eventually catches Les Ass but lets him go.  Ends
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Answer: Les Miserables
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 17 03:31:15 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 20:31:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnD2+3Zg=OJB4_gQwkbqezjVRgiutxs_dppMycZ1FhYs_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <006b01da00aa$63348e80$299dab80$@rainier66.com>

 

> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat

 

spike <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

>>?Everything sucked.  So they moved to California.  Then everything sucked worse than before.  spike

 

 

>?The Grapes of Wrath...  Kelly

 

 

Ja, sure is, Kelly.  Try this one, you literature hipsters, a haiku describing a book:

 

 

Typed like sax key jazz

Post seven years aimless trek,

Weird but fun story.

 

 

spike

 

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Tue Oct 17 09:19:43 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 03:19:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <006b01da00aa$63348e80$299dab80$@rainier66.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onu5H928exXeH1pZ07twUMaEg64ZfqQo+OxhqBXZ-8+H_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQOG2DAVJxq4ft_op+0HAj0TyWjL50O3Z72z9jNybQVuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CACBESnDr5EOgv5Aghyn2yjOukUw_mV7rVr10iQgyWSx2BzkLaQ@mail.gmail.com>

"On the Road" by Jack Kerouac?

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 9:32?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
>
>
>
> spike <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> >>?Everything sucked.  So they moved to California.  Then everything sucked worse than before.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
> >?The Grapes of Wrath...  Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, sure is, Kelly.  Try this one, you literature hipsters, a haiku describing a book:
>
>
>
>
>
> Typed like sax key jazz
>
> Post seven years aimless trek,
>
> Weird but fun story.
>
>
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 17 13:29:57 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 14:29:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Simulations_of_=E2=80=98backwards_time_travel?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_can_improve_scientific_experiments?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTe__6Dv4hUAKKSs2sv4NC+25baB3yA46QF7qxfs82grA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgbpEpO6MWfkztpAMD7Doh7SjsRwnAoXoBRq3=bGYCPAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTe__6Dv4hUAKKSs2sv4NC+25baB3yA46QF7qxfs82grA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjJAXyJY4Y=odRbPGj7-dDWoM4eyDyMLZJhDzzY+nGf8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 at 19:55, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> If I read this correctly, they send a bunch of photons and then, after finding out certain criteria, then apply filters to make sure that only the photons matching those criteria make it through.
>
> They seem to confuse "only the correct photons arrive" with "only the correct photons were sent", overlooking that the filtered-out photons were sent too.  The difference between simulated time travel and what they are doing is the fates of the filtered-out photons.  The difference is enough to break the simulation for most meaningful purposes.
>
> I wouldn't call this a "deep dive", nor is this specific to quantum mechanics.  On a macro scale (as in their "gift" analogy), if I know that I will need one of four things but I do not yet know which one, I can pre-arrange that one of each of those four will be where I need it when I need it, and ignore the other three at that time, no temporal shenanigans (simulated or otherwise) involved.
> _______________________________________________


I've been fretting a bit over this, but I think I understand it now.
The article is written in a very click-baity way, making it difficult to follow.

But basically you're correct.

This is a thought experiment they are describing.
They haven't yet done anything practical.
They aren't changing either the past or the future.

The 75% failure rate is due to the probabilistic nature of finding
suitably entangled photons. The thought experiment is a simulation
because it produces this effect probabilistically.
So, there are a certain number of times when it looks like you have
time-traveled, but not every time. The filter is used to actually see
the photons that would appear to have time-traveled.
As you say, they are just selecting the photons they want and
discarding the rest.

My time-traveling DeLorean will have to wait a while!

BillK


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Oct 17 18:45:17 2023
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 18:45:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <mailman.294.1697499721.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.294.1697499721.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <993509325.48090.1697568317666@mail.yahoo.com>

 Spike wrote:Everything sucked.? So they moved to California.? Then everything sucked worse than before.? spike
Here?s another: She thought he sucked.? She gradually discovered he didn?t

   ***********************
The first one - is it the episode of South Park where the internet runs dry, so they all head down Californee way? Or it could be one of any number of books set in the Great Dustbowl. I will guess at "The Grapes of Wrath"
The second one is the plot of more than 50% of romantic novels in the English language. I will guess at Pride and Prejudice, as it is a truth universally acknowledged that a writer in need of an example of an arrogant romantic hero will resort to copying Mr Darcy.
Tom  
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 17 21:34:28 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 14:34:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDr5EOgv5Aghyn2yjOukUw_mV7rVr10iQgyWSx2BzkLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009e01da0047$31a69650$94f3c2f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnBmv0g1N9VYHZAKTObRL1gh6PmhWyodc3WSdymAxp6h3A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNR9LZ5P-q_nmCjuwkvYu-pVYCGNUEp+xFPGmZPSVsr4VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnyXVKhJm1L4aYaaa5RGDaBBfu0caxo5SWVAw-+-g7qbcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKRnsnxj+GkbvwxtspBS97o7VhJ6QPnizODT9v7QHCvrNm2ynw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnD2+3Zg=OJB4_gQwkbqezjVRgiutxs_dppMycZ1FhYs_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <006b01da00aa$63348e80$299dab80$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <00de01da0141$b62d1200$22873600$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol


> >...Try this one, you literature hipsters, a haiku describing a book:
>
>
>
>
>
> >...Typed like sax key jazz
>
>>... Post seven years aimless trek,
>
>>... Weird but fun story.


>..."On the Road" by Jack Kerouac?


Right on, man!  Kelly you are a literature hipster daddio, man!

Reading Kerouac was a cultural education for me.  I had no idea, even though I was there for a lotta the hep-cat revolution.

spike











From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 17 22:33:38 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 15:33:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <993509325.48090.1697568317666@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.294.1697499721.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <993509325.48090.1697568317666@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011701da0149$f9be0030$ed3a0090$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Tom Nowell via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, 17 October, 2023 11:45 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol

 

Spike wrote:

Everything sucked.  So they moved to California.  Then everything sucked worse than before.  spike

 

Here?s another: She thought he sucked.  She gradually discovered he didn?t

 

 

***********************

>?The first one - is it the episode of South Park where the internet runs dry, so they all head down Californee way? Or it could be one of any number of books set in the Great Dustbowl. I will guess at "The Grapes of Wrath"?

 

Grapes of Wrath is right.

 

>?The second one is the plot of more than 50% of romantic novels in the English language. I will guess at Pride and Prejudice, as it is a truth universally acknowledged that a writer in need of an example of an arrogant romantic hero will resort to copying Mr Darcy.

 

Tom

 

 

Pride and Prejudice is right.  I am not familiar with romantic novels as a genre and fear I would fall face down asleep should I even attempt to read one, resulting in my waking hours later with a painful crease in my nose from the book binding.  But my bride is a huge P&P fan.

 

Tom, I heard the British TV version of it (with that drop-dead gorgeous Jennifer Ehle as Miss Elizabeth, and the most humorous silly person playing Mrs. Bennet perfectly.  I found it most entertaining, and that caused me to view the British Jeeves and Wooster series, which is some of the funniest TV ever I have witnessed.  Those two guys crack me up.  It also benefitted me personally, for after viewing J&W, I decided I wanted to be Jeeves when I grow up.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 17 22:57:01 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 23:57:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] highly abridged version of dickens carol
In-Reply-To: <011701da0149$f9be0030$ed3a0090$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.294.1697499721.8107.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <993509325.48090.1697568317666@mail.yahoo.com>
 <011701da0149$f9be0030$ed3a0090$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg3W8Lq6uvhznzhZsWBWGqszPwBGAVkOa+ATkOw5QdOig@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 17 Oct 2023 at 23:36, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Tom, I heard the British TV version of it (with that drop-dead gorgeous Jennifer Ehle as Miss Elizabeth, and the most humorous silly person playing Mrs. Bennet perfectly.  I found it most entertaining, and that caused me to view the British Jeeves and Wooster series, which is some of the funniest TV ever I have witnessed.  Those two guys crack me up.  It also benefitted me personally, for after viewing J&W, I decided I wanted to be Jeeves when I grow up.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Do you know that there is a Jeeves chatbot?  <https://jeeves.ai/chat/>
The free level uses GPT3.5 and seems pretty good.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 17 23:24:50 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 18:24:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] smartness?
In-Reply-To: <00fd01da0148$2511af40$6f350dc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbvW7HUKn_qPY4vx9wD20qrdxdUyxFtKQasDzL3sPFoiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fd01da0148$2511af40$6f350dc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYuoaugh_4psNaWj_TpWRdL1GL1S-KLUhU2a0Ev-fUk8A@mail.gmail.com>

Is passing gas astute?       bill w

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 5:20?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 17 October, 2023 10:09 AM
> *To:* spike <spike at rainier66.com>
> *Subject:* smartness?
>
>
>
> Is passing gas astute?
>
>
>
> Billw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?haaarrrrrarararararararrrrr?
>
>
>
> {8^D
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 18 16:30:48 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 11:30:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sapolsky
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEby3TwoSYo2t+NMhk2WvNcZs7V0-=KOBQsWfO_6yzWRsw@mail.gmail.com>

For those who bought 'Behave', this book is a no-brainer.  For those who
didn't, why not!!??  It's genius.

This one, 'Determined: a science of life without free will' will also be a
classic.  I have not finished it, and of course it will not totally settle
the question.

Psychologist, neuroscientist, expert on baboons, and all-around mensch.
bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 18 16:39:07 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 09:39:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] earthquake prediction
Message-ID: <007701da01e1$9d944420$d8bccc60$@rainier66.com>

 

Hey cool, I have long wondered if the USGS could give us a warning in time
to duck and cover in case of an earthquake.  It seemed to me like it could,
given sufficient numbers of detectors and such.  Just a few minutes ago I
got a duck and cover notice from them for the first time.  The earthquake is
a 5.7 epicenter about 90 km northeast of here.  It is not yet fast enough
however, for a quake that size would be nothing by the time the waves
travelled this far.  I heard a creak when my house moved a little, then the
warning came to the phone a few seconds later.

 

In any case. as they set more detectors and the system matures, it can only
get better.  So maybe we are getting there.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 18 17:07:31 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 18:07:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] earthquake prediction
In-Reply-To: <007701da01e1$9d944420$d8bccc60$@rainier66.com>
References: <007701da01e1$9d944420$d8bccc60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgrm2grpUKkkHasc6cg5vMcoaUZGgXHLXwmjD_CU9BRJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 17:42, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Hey cool, I have long wondered if the USGS could give us a warning in time to duck and cover in case of an earthquake.  It seemed to me like it could, given sufficient numbers of detectors and such.  Just a few minutes ago I got a duck and cover notice from them for the first time.  The earthquake is a 5.7 epicenter about 90 km northeast of here.  It is not yet fast enough however, for a quake that size would be nothing by the time the waves travelled this far.  I heard a creak when my house moved a little, then the warning came to the phone a few seconds later.
>
> In any case? as they set more detectors and the system matures, it can only get better.  So maybe we are getting there.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Oct 05, 2023
AI-Driven Earthquake Forecasting Shows Promise in Trials

<https://news.utexas.edu/2023/10/05/ai-driven-earthquake-forecasting-shows-promise-in-trials/>
Quote:
Developed by researchers at The University of Texas at Austin, the AI
algorithm correctly predicted 70% of earthquakes a week before they
happened during a seven-month trial in China.
The AI was trained to detect statistical bumps in real-time seismic
data that researchers had paired with previous earthquakes. The
outcome was a weekly forecast in which the AI successfully predicted
14 earthquakes within about 200 miles of where it estimated they would
happen and at almost exactly the calculated strength.
---------------------

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 18 17:41:11 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 10:41:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4ia2WpWbz8iFAMjA9vmZZY8RRRVvRydybVvdNSuLmduQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4ia2WpWbz8iFAMjA9vmZZY8RRRVvRydybVvdNSuLmduQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>

--------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:17?PM
Subject: Cheap fuel from coal and sola

We are going to need fuel for a considerable time.

>From the dawn of the industrial revolution,

H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)

The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated
to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)

Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A
metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
3.03 MW hours.

This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy
content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We
have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a
ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy
in the gas is from the coal.

A few years ago a 900 MW solar PV project in the Mideast signed a
power purchase for 1.35 cents per kWh so I think $20/MWh works for a
rough economic analysis.

Following a ton of coal, the syngas from a ton would cost ~$20 for the
coal (plus shipping) and $60 or less for the intermittent power.  Call
it ~$80/ton.

Half a ton of carbon would be pulled out in the water gas shift
reaction to get the hydrogen ratio up to where you need it for F/T
input.  500 kg of carbon and 1/6 of that in hydrogen should show up in
the product.  The F/T energy loss is about 25%, not sure about the
material loss or where it might go.  .583 ton x 7.3 bbl/ton is 4.26
bbl. or $18.80 /bbl.

That's down near or below the production cost for oil.  Of course, the
F/T capital cost has to be added to this plus the completely unknown
cost of the arc gasifiers.  The Orxy plant cost is ~$8/bbl (ten-year
write-off) but that was in 2007 dollars.  What comes out of an Oryx
plant is a refined product rather than crude oil making it more
valuable than crude

Most big energy projects when you analyze them are just silly.  This
is not something you can reject out of hand.

This does not help with the build-up of carbon in the atmosphere, but
we will have to do air capture anyway.

Please check the math.  Age is making this harder and harder.

Keith


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 18 17:54:59 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 10:54:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4ia2WpWbz8iFAMjA9vmZZY8RRRVvRydybVvdNSuLmduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01da01ec$36b433e0$a41c9ba0$@rainier66.com>



>...We are going to need fuel for a considerable time...

Sure will.  Cars can go on batteries, but much of modern life is poorly suited, such as passenger flight and agriculture.

>...From the dawn of the industrial revolution,

H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)

>...The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)


Keith if you consider only the coal and production of solar cell cost, the conversion of coal to oil pencils out.  A coupla years ago, I ran the numbers and they look similar to yours, however... it needs a loooootta lotta real estate to get those energy numbers.

I commented at the time in the ExI forum that if an industrial power would buy a huge hunk of sparsely populated West Africa, a few thousand square km, buy it from three different potentates who claim it (if anyone is paying actual money) then create an actual enforceable border around it, West Africa could support such an operation.

Every time I suggested the project, it was pointed out to me that industrial powers may not "buy" a hunk of sparsely populated Africa, for this would be considered colonialism, which offends modern sensibilities, at least until the price of oil goes above a hundred clams a barrel.  Then our delicate sensibilities get far less delicate.

Stand by sir, I confidently predict that at some point, there will be an enormous PV manufacturing plant, and a coal to oil conversion facility.

Fun exercise: go on Google Earth, zoom in, check it out.  Imagine China or Germany or France or the commies buying a piece of that and setting up a defensible border around it, then getting to work out there.

spike  






-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
Sent: Wednesday, 18 October, 2023 10:41 AM
To: Inventor's Lunch <inventors-lunch at googlegroups.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; extropolis at googlegroups.com
Cc: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Cheap fuel from coal and solar

--------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:17?PM
Subject: Cheap fuel from coal and sola


Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
3.03 MW hours.

This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy in the gas is from the coal.

A few years ago a 900 MW solar PV project in the Mideast signed a power purchase for 1.35 cents per kWh so I think $20/MWh works for a rough economic analysis.

Following a ton of coal, the syngas from a ton would cost ~$20 for the coal (plus shipping) and $60 or less for the intermittent power.  Call it ~$80/ton.

Half a ton of carbon would be pulled out in the water gas shift reaction to get the hydrogen ratio up to where you need it for F/T input.  500 kg of carbon and 1/6 of that in hydrogen should show up in the product.  The F/T energy loss is about 25%, not sure about the material loss or where it might go.  .583 ton x 7.3 bbl/ton is 4.26 bbl. or $18.80 /bbl.

That's down near or below the production cost for oil.  Of course, the F/T capital cost has to be added to this plus the completely unknown cost of the arc gasifiers.  The Orxy plant cost is ~$8/bbl (ten-year
write-off) but that was in 2007 dollars.  What comes out of an Oryx plant is a refined product rather than crude oil making it more valuable than crude

Most big energy projects when you analyze them are just silly.  This is not something you can reject out of hand.

This does not help with the build-up of carbon in the atmosphere, but we will have to do air capture anyway.

Please check the math.  Age is making this harder and harder.

Keith

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Oct 18 18:28:30 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 11:28:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] FW:  earthquake prediction
In-Reply-To: <009601da01ee$95070380$bf150a80$@rainier66.com>
References: <007701da01e1$9d944420$d8bccc60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgrm2grpUKkkHasc6cg5vMcoaUZGgXHLXwmjD_CU9BRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601da01ee$95070380$bf150a80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <009c01da01f0$e5975550$b0c5fff0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
>...  I heard a creak when my house moved a little, then the warning came to the phone a few seconds later.
>
> In any case? as they set more detectors and the system matures, it can only get better.  So maybe we are getting there.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Oct 05, 2023
AI-Driven Earthquake Forecasting Shows Promise in Trials

<https://news.utexas.edu/2023/10/05/ai-driven-earthquake-forecasting-shows-promise-in-trials/>
Quote:
Developed by researchers at The University of Texas at Austin, the AI algorithm correctly predicted 70% of earthquakes a week before they happened during a seven-month trial in China.
The AI was trained to detect statistical bumps in real-time seismic data that researchers had paired with previous earthquakes. The outcome was a weekly forecast in which the AI successfully predicted
14 earthquakes within about 200 miles of where it estimated they would happen and at almost exactly the calculated strength.
---------------------

BillK

_______________________________________________



Cool.  BillK, I mistakenly called the thread earthquake prediction, but what this is really is rapid reporting of a detected quake.  I am interested in what happened at school today, which I will not hear about until this afternoon, but it came thru as an emergency alert, which defeats any privacy filters you have on at any level below the on/off switch.  The on/off switch pulls rank on everything on the phone, but emergency alerts defeat everything else.

So now, the students have their phones on privacy mode, silent mode, vibrate mode etc.  But every classroom would have 30 cell phones honking and urging the cell phoner to duck and cover.  My bride and I were in the same room and received the signal about half a second apart, and the duck and cover message on each phone was out of synch by about half a second.  If the same message spewed from 30 phones, none of which were in perfect unison, I can imagine that delightfully hilarious chaos would ensue.  

News at 5.

spike




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 18 21:39:45 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:39:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Extropolis] Fwd: Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3exFjaJLPEdGJvix9RRM-Enm_Y_=Zym2zyiH52tq5Vbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4ia2WpWbz8iFAMjA9vmZZY8RRRVvRydybVvdNSuLmduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3exFjaJLPEdGJvix9RRM-Enm_Y_=Zym2zyiH52tq5Vbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5dADqz13X7-BHZTmi8yt1H7L2zWvvCprdCBtVHpJEsRg@mail.gmail.com>

"I don't believe we've been burning carbon in water since the dawn of
the industrial revolution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas

You are not up on industrial history.

And yes, carbon monoxide is not good to breathe.   It is made and used
by millions of tons in industrial plants.

Finally, hydrogen made while the sun is up is too damned expensive.
It's not the energy cost as much as the cost of the platinum in the
electrolysis cells and the fact that they are only used part of the
time.

Keith

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 11:24?AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 1:41?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > We are going to need fuel for a considerable time. From the dawn of the industrial revolution, H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand your proposal, I don't believe we've been burning carbon in water since the dawn of the industrial revolution.  And burning carbon in the air is undesirable because it produces a lot of carbon dioxide (CO2), but the reaction you're describing produces carbon monoxide (CO), a far more dangerous pollutant than CO2.
>
>> > The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated to maintain the reaction.
>
>
> Presumably the energy to heat it would come from solar energy, but I think it would be better to skip the middleman and just let the solar power make electricity, or if you want chemical energy you could use the solar energy to generate hydrogen from water with no need for carbon to get involved at all.
>
> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis
> cia
>
>
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAJPayv3exFjaJLPEdGJvix9RRM-Enm_Y_%3DZym2zyiH52tq5Vbg%40mail.gmail.com.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 18 21:41:32 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 14:41:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAGY9ANC3VQfiR6p53zvxBgJB74QDQnGww98yo-VYyBZ4WCDceg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4ia2WpWbz8iFAMjA9vmZZY8RRRVvRydybVvdNSuLmduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGY9ANC3VQfiR6p53zvxBgJB74QDQnGww98yo-VYyBZ4WCDceg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4-ZYvw7CKvGGDC3UDzdZ=J21Wtr+Gq6a4=jGVaXjfiVg@mail.gmail.com>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process

The Oryx plant in Qatar makes 34,000 bbl of diesel per day.

Keith

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 12:08?PM David Gluss <dgluss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What's F/T?
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 10:41?AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> --------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:17?PM
>> Subject: Cheap fuel from coal and sola
>>
>> We are going to need fuel for a considerable time.
>>
>> From the dawn of the industrial revolution,
>>
>> H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)
>>
>> The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated
>> to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)
>>
>> Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A
>> metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
>> 3.03 MW hours.
>>
>> This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy
>> content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We
>> have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a
>> ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy
>> in the gas is from the coal.
>>
>> A few years ago a 900 MW solar PV project in the Mideast signed a
>> power purchase for 1.35 cents per kWh so I think $20/MWh works for a
>> rough economic analysis.
>>
>> Following a ton of coal, the syngas from a ton would cost ~$20 for the
>> coal (plus shipping) and $60 or less for the intermittent power.  Call
>> it ~$80/ton.
>>
>> Half a ton of carbon would be pulled out in the water gas shift
>> reaction to get the hydrogen ratio up to where you need it for F/T
>> input.  500 kg of carbon and 1/6 of that in hydrogen should show up in
>> the product.  The F/T energy loss is about 25%, not sure about the
>> material loss or where it might go.  .583 ton x 7.3 bbl/ton is 4.26
>> bbl. or $18.80 /bbl.
>>
>> That's down near or below the production cost for oil.  Of course, the
>> F/T capital cost has to be added to this plus the completely unknown
>> cost of the arc gasifiers.  The Orxy plant cost is ~$8/bbl (ten-year
>> write-off) but that was in 2007 dollars.  What comes out of an Oryx
>> plant is a refined product rather than crude oil making it more
>> valuable than crude
>>
>> Most big energy projects when you analyze them are just silly.  This
>> is not something you can reject out of hand.
>>
>> This does not help with the build-up of carbon in the atmosphere, but
>> we will have to do air capture anyway.
>>
>> Please check the math.  Age is making this harder and harder.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG%3D2e7Xw%40mail.gmail.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct 19 00:14:21 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 17:14:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] earthquake prediction
In-Reply-To: <009c01da01f0$e5975550$b0c5fff0$@rainier66.com>
References: <007701da01e1$9d944420$d8bccc60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgrm2grpUKkkHasc6cg5vMcoaUZGgXHLXwmjD_CU9BRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601da01ee$95070380$bf150a80$@rainier66.com>
 <009c01da01f0$e5975550$b0c5fff0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01da0221$35f50f80$a1df2e80$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
...

_______________________________________________



>...Cool.  BillK, ...what this is really is rapid reporting of a detected quake.  ...  The on/off switch pulls rank on everything on the phone, but emergency alerts defeat everything else...So now, the students have their phones on privacy mode, silent mode, vibrate mode etc.  But every classroom would have 30 cell phones honking and urging the cell phoner to duck and cover...News at 5.  spike


Clarification: News at 5 means 5 PM Pacific time, US.

As expected, a number of phones went off and attempted to give their messages, but were out of synch, interfering with each other, creating the kind of chaos that students always love as a way to break up the grinding monotony of learning the lessons they are certain are actually brutal revenge for the way they have behaved since approximately four weeks after they were conceived.

Upon receiving the earthquake message, a full three minutes passed before the principal addressed his students, calmly assuring them that the danger had passed nearly unnoticed, but if they wished to take extra precautions, they were free to do so.  The students, being Californian, were aware that compression waves pass thru rock very quickly, so any shaking would have happened within a few seconds of the disturbance at the epicenter.

This all has me thinking: this is a marvelous engineering challenge. A year ago last summer I was hiking in the Sierras and saw in the distance an object way off the trail.  Being a curious sort, I climbed over to it and realized it was a seismometer with communications gear.  It occurred to me that such a system could be created, given a number of these observation stations placed in various locations.  

This is the first time I have seen that in use, but compression waves travel quickly in rock.  So the threat would need to be detected, the appropriate message selected and sent, all within perhaps a quarter of a minute to be any value (in entertaining high school students (to whom everything this a big joke (because they are still young and indestructible (but I'm not.))))

spike





From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 00:42:04 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 17:42:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <008a01da01ec$36b433e0$a41c9ba0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4ia2WpWbz8iFAMjA9vmZZY8RRRVvRydybVvdNSuLmduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01da01ec$36b433e0$a41c9ba0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4qhxHccB7tCV4R7+yrhKmy1W7vvHmMMfjaJx4eCHQ-fg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 10:55?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> >...We are going to need fuel for a considerable time...
>
> Sure will.  Cars can go on batteries, but much of modern life is poorly suited, such as passenger flight and agriculture.
>
> >...From the dawn of the industrial revolution,
>
> H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)
>
> >...The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)
>
> Keith if you consider only the coal and production of solar cell cost, the conversion of coal to oil pencils out.  A coupla years ago, I ran the numbers and they look similar to yours, however... it needs a loooootta lotta real estate to get those energy numbers.

I have talked about 90 square km for a synthetic fuel plant.  Land for
PV is in the Mideast is cheap, you can't do anything else with it.

> I commented at the time in the ExI forum that if an industrial power would buy a huge hunk of sparsely populated West Africa, a few thousand square km, buy it from three different potentates who claim it (if anyone is paying actual money) then create an actual enforceable border around it, West Africa could support such an operation.

So could Saudi Arabia.

> Every time I suggested the project, it was pointed out to me that industrial powers may not "buy" a hunk of sparsely populated Africa, for this would be considered colonialism, which offends modern sensibilities, at least until the price of oil goes above a hundred clams a barrel.  Then our delicate sensibilities get far less delicate.
>
> Stand by sir, I confidently predict that at some point, there will be an enormous PV manufacturing plant, and a coal to oil conversion facility.

It's not easy to make fuel out of Solar PV and CO2 out of the air.  I
have tried but the economics just don't work.

> Fun exercise: go on Google Earth, zoom in, check it out.  Imagine China or Germany or France or the commies buying a piece of that and setting up a defensible border around it, then getting to work out there.

I really don't see how such a thing could be defensible.

Maybe you have some ideas.

Keith
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 October, 2023 10:41 AM
> To: Inventor's Lunch <inventors-lunch at googlegroups.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; extropolis at googlegroups.com
> Cc: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Cheap fuel from coal and solar
>
> --------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:17?PM
> Subject: Cheap fuel from coal and sola
>
>
> Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
> 3.03 MW hours.
>
> This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy in the gas is from the coal.
>
> A few years ago a 900 MW solar PV project in the Mideast signed a power purchase for 1.35 cents per kWh so I think $20/MWh works for a rough economic analysis.
>
> Following a ton of coal, the syngas from a ton would cost ~$20 for the coal (plus shipping) and $60 or less for the intermittent power.  Call it ~$80/ton.
>
> Half a ton of carbon would be pulled out in the water gas shift reaction to get the hydrogen ratio up to where you need it for F/T input.  500 kg of carbon and 1/6 of that in hydrogen should show up in the product.  The F/T energy loss is about 25%, not sure about the material loss or where it might go.  .583 ton x 7.3 bbl/ton is 4.26 bbl. or $18.80 /bbl.
>
> That's down near or below the production cost for oil.  Of course, the F/T capital cost has to be added to this plus the completely unknown cost of the arc gasifiers.  The Orxy plant cost is ~$8/bbl (ten-year
> write-off) but that was in 2007 dollars.  What comes out of an Oryx plant is a refined product rather than crude oil making it more valuable than crude
>
> Most big energy projects when you analyze them are just silly.  This is not something you can reject out of hand.
>
> This does not help with the build-up of carbon in the atmosphere, but we will have to do air capture anyway.
>
> Please check the math.  Age is making this harder and harder.
>
> Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 07:24:17 2023
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 09:24:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Irrational mechanics, draft Ch. 4. Libertarian determinism.
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf=N7s7wo5hn7xsQdM8_WOipRZBk1-=8bdswOuNxa1KTw@mail.gmail.com>

(Very) early draft of Chapter 4 of my next book. Irrational mechanics,
draft Ch. 4. Libertarian determinism.
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/irrational-mechanics-draft-ch-4

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 17:02:48 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:02:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David

Up thread I put in the Wikipedia article on Fischer?Tropsch.  Sorry, I
have been so involve in this for so many years that I forget that most
people don't know much engineering history.

Trouble with history is that there is so much of it, and it keeps piling up.

Best wishes,

Keith

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 10:23?PM David Gluss <dgluss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> C'mon Keith. What's F/T? I want to understand you. Fundamental rule: don't use an acronym until you've defined it, unless you know your audience already knows. I do have a fucking PhD in engineering and I have no fucking clue what you mean by F/T so please enlighten me.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 7:14?PM DV Henkel-Wallace <gumby at henkel-wallace.org> wrote:
>>
>> Nate Lewis?s group at Caltech was making an artificial ?leaf? to produce oil from sunlight and photosynthesis.   Anything ever come of that effort?
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Oct 18, 2023, at 10:41, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?--------- Forwarded message ---------
>> > From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>> > Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:17?PM
>> > Subject: Cheap fuel from coal and sola
>> >
>> > We are going to need fuel for a considerable time.
>> >
>> > From the dawn of the industrial revolution,
>> >
>> > H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)
>> >
>> > The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated
>> > to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)
>> >
>> > Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A
>> > metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
>> > 3.03 MW hours.
>> >
>> > This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy
>> > content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We
>> > have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a
>> > ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy
>> > in the gas is from the coal.
>> >
>> > A few years ago a 900 MW solar PV project in the Mideast signed a
>> > power purchase for 1.35 cents per kWh so I think $20/MWh works for a
>> > rough economic analysis.
>> >
>> > Following a ton of coal, the syngas from a ton would cost ~$20 for the
>> > coal (plus shipping) and $60 or less for the intermittent power.  Call
>> > it ~$80/ton.
>> >
>> > Half a ton of carbon would be pulled out in the water gas shift
>> > reaction to get the hydrogen ratio up to where you need it for F/T
>> > input.  500 kg of carbon and 1/6 of that in hydrogen should show up in
>> > the product.  The F/T energy loss is about 25%, not sure about the
>> > material loss or where it might go.  .583 ton x 7.3 bbl/ton is 4.26
>> > bbl. or $18.80 /bbl.
>> >
>> > That's down near or below the production cost for oil.  Of course, the
>> > F/T capital cost has to be added to this plus the completely unknown
>> > cost of the arc gasifiers.  The Orxy plant cost is ~$8/bbl (ten-year
>> > write-off) but that was in 2007 dollars.  What comes out of an Oryx
>> > plant is a refined product rather than crude oil making it more
>> > valuable than crude
>> >
>> > Most big energy projects when you analyze them are just silly.  This
>> > is not something you can reject out of hand.
>> >
>> > This does not help with the build-up of carbon in the atmosphere, but
>> > we will have to do air capture anyway.
>> >
>> > Please check the math.  Age is making this harder and harder.
>> >
>> > Keith
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG%3D2e7Xw%40mail.gmail.com.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0%40henkel-wallace.org.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 17:12:53 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:12:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAME32Sfv+JNr0pgJErC_hATkPGf0X3_gnLf2Tj-C7djCsdM6Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BFF911F3-1E44-4A09-B0B2-0222BB30EA0D@mac.com>
 <CAME32Sfv+JNr0pgJErC_hATkPGf0X3_gnLf2Tj-C7djCsdM6Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7UMAfgFtW6jemzcvvRJE3oGCDoA2ZFLw=AGkRNgiTZ_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 11:11?PM Phil Gossett <cphilgossett at gmail.com> wrote:

snip
>
> Coal gas? Really?
>
> This was common in the UK a century ago. And was banned because carbon monoxide killed thousands of people. Because it's f'ing toxic as hell.

This kind of gas was common in the US up to the 1950s.  As far as I
know, it was never banned but displaced by cheaper natural gas.

> And perhaps more to the point, it "burns" into CO2. So what exactly are we gaining here?

Cheaper diesel.  Farming and food transportation are utterly dependent
on diesel.  The process does allow for capturing and sequestering half
the carbon.

Keith

> I'm confused...
>
> - Phil
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 10:41 PM 'William Arnett' via Inventor's Lunch <inventors-lunch at googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> Fischer?Tropsch?
>>
>> --
>> Bill Arnett
>> bill at arnett.us.com
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 10:24?PM, David Gluss <dgluss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> C'mon Keith. What's F/T? I want to understand you. Fundamental rule: don't use an acronym until you've defined it, unless you know your audience already knows. I do have a fucking PhD in engineering and I have no fucking clue what you mean by F/T so please enlighten me.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 7:14?PM DV Henkel-Wallace <gumby at henkel-wallace.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nate Lewis?s group at Caltech was making an artificial ?leaf? to produce oil from sunlight and photosynthesis.   Anything ever come of that effort?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On Oct 18, 2023, at 10:41, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > ?--------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> > From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>>> > Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 2:17?PM
>>> > Subject: Cheap fuel from coal and sola
>>> >
>>> > We are going to need fuel for a considerable time.
>>> >
>>> > From the dawn of the industrial revolution,
>>> >
>>> > H2O + C ? H2 + CO (?H = +131 kJ/mol)
>>> >
>>> > The reaction is endothermic, so the fuel must be continually re-heated
>>> > to maintain the reaction. (Wikipedia)
>>> >
>>> > Carbon is 12 gm/mol. 83 mol/kg and a kg would soak up 10900 kJ. A
>>> > metric ton of carbon evaporated in steam would need 10900000 kJ or
>>> > 3.03 MW hours.
>>> >
>>> > This would produce 1/6th of a ton of hydrogen with a combustion energy
>>> > content of 50 MWh/ton, about 8.3 MWh. CO combustion is 10.1 MJ/kg. We
>>> > have 2800 kg or about 7.85 MWh. So we make about 16 MWh of gas from a
>>> > ton of coal and 3 MWh of renewable electric power. Most of the energy
>>> > in the gas is from the coal.
>>> >
>>> > A few years ago a 900 MW solar PV project in the Mideast signed a
>>> > power purchase for 1.35 cents per kWh so I think $20/MWh works for a
>>> > rough economic analysis.
>>> >
>>> > Following a ton of coal, the syngas from a ton would cost ~$20 for the
>>> > coal (plus shipping) and $60 or less for the intermittent power.  Call
>>> > it ~$80/ton.
>>> >
>>> > Half a ton of carbon would be pulled out in the water gas shift
>>> > reaction to get the hydrogen ratio up to where you need it for F/T
>>> > input.  500 kg of carbon and 1/6 of that in hydrogen should show up in
>>> > the product.  The F/T energy loss is about 25%, not sure about the
>>> > material loss or where it might go.  .583 ton x 7.3 bbl/ton is 4.26
>>> > bbl. or $18.80 /bbl.
>>> >
>>> > That's down near or below the production cost for oil.  Of course, the
>>> > F/T capital cost has to be added to this plus the completely unknown
>>> > cost of the arc gasifiers.  The Orxy plant cost is ~$8/bbl (ten-year
>>> > write-off) but that was in 2007 dollars.  What comes out of an Oryx
>>> > plant is a refined product rather than crude oil making it more
>>> > valuable than crude
>>> >
>>> > Most big energy projects when you analyze them are just silly.  This
>>> > is not something you can reject out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > This does not help with the build-up of carbon in the atmosphere, but
>>> > we will have to do air capture anyway.
>>> >
>>> > Please check the math.  Age is making this harder and harder.
>>> >
>>> > Keith
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG%3D2e7Xw%40mail.gmail.com.
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0%40henkel-wallace.org.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/CAGY9AND%3D6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN%3DJ0e1wz2Q-RQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Inventor's Lunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to inventors-lunch+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/inventors-lunch/BFF911F3-1E44-4A09-B0B2-0222BB30EA0D%40mac.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct 19 17:25:21 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:25:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
...
>...Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar


...

>...Trouble with history is that there is so much of it, and it keeps piling up....Keith

That's only part of the trouble.  The job gets bigger if we take on the task of rewriting what has already been done in accordance with modern sensibilities.


>...Wikipedia article on Fischer?Tropsch.  ...

Keith, as I recall from having done the end-to-end calcs on this with Robert Bradbury about 20 yrs ago, this will pencil out much better if low-grade bituminous coal is the feedstock rather than air extraction or the high priced limited supply of anthracite coal.  If external energy is in plentiful supply, the lowest grade highest sulfur coal still pencils out, and even peat as a feeder, iiiiiifffff... the peat is right there, to reduce the transport cost.  Peat is cheap but it still hasta be close by.

There is bituminous coal available in or near the Sahara, but I don't know about peat.

My predictions stands: we will continue to need liquid fuels, eventually the Fischer-Tropsch process will be used, the energy will come from solar, good chance the facility will be close to the Atlantic coast in Africa (in order to have access to sufficient quantities of cooling water (and to transport coal in and to haul liquid hydrocarbons out.))

My prediction comes with a caveat: for a big segment of our population takes constant power for granted, without ever worrying where it will come from.  They will view any notion of converting coal to liquid fuel as heresy.  

However... I do hope everyone will ponder this next comment: we moderns are completely dependent on reliable power.  If we have major power failures or even major communications system failures, society will collapse and people will die bigtime.  

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 20:11:10 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:11:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5NV1dwF8mqu_+vqJLd6eAY1Cgotei4BquCz8MGNfS6AQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 10:25?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
 ...
>
> Keith, as I recall from having done the end-to-end calcs on this with Robert Bradbury about 20 yrs ago, this will pencil out much better if low-grade bituminous coal is the feedstock rather than air extraction or the high priced limited supply of anthracite coal.

I think that a submerged arc will not make any difference in the type of coal.

Starting with CO2 out of the air takes too much expensive hydrogen.

> If external energy is in plentiful supply, the lowest grade highest sulfur coal still pencils out, and even peat as a feeder, iiiiiifffff... the peat is right there, to reduce the transport cost.  Peat is cheap but it still hasta be close by.
>
> There is bituminous coal available in or near the Sahara, but I don't know about peat.

Peat takes wet an the Sahara is not that.

> My predictions stands: we will continue to need liquid fuels, eventually the Fischer-Tropsch process will be used, the energy will come from solar, good chance the facility will be close to the Atlantic coast in Africa (in order to have access to sufficient quantities of cooling water (and to transport coal in and to haul liquid hydrocarbons out.))

Maybe.  There is no oil infrastructure on the west coast of Africa and
a lot of it is in the Mideast.
>
> My prediction comes with a caveat: for a big segment of our population takes constant power for granted, without ever worrying where it will come from.  They will view any notion of converting coal to liquid fuel as heresy.

That's a different, though related problem.

> However... I do hope everyone will ponder this next comment: we moderns are completely dependent on reliable power.  If we have major power failures or even major communications system failures, society will collapse and people will die bigtime.

I think if you look back into history, the biggest diebacks have been
due to volcanoes.  Indirectly due to crop failures.  The big heat wave
of this last summer may be due to the Hunga eruption.

Keith

> spike
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct 19 20:25:25 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:25:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cryo billionaires
Message-ID: <00d001da02ca$64f443b0$2edccb10$@rainier66.com>

 

 



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From gadersd at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 21:01:16 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 17:01:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cryo billionaires
In-Reply-To: <00d001da02ca$64f443b0$2edccb10$@rainier66.com>
References: <00d001da02ca$64f443b0$2edccb10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <22A6EA1E-C99A-42AD-A5D9-49D0D9B47F90@gmail.com>

Die a cryo millionaire and wake up a cryo billionaire.

> On Oct 19, 2023, at 4:25 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> <image001.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct 19 22:48:09 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 15:48:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cryo billionaires
In-Reply-To: <22A6EA1E-C99A-42AD-A5D9-49D0D9B47F90@gmail.com>
References: <00d001da02ca$64f443b0$2edccb10$@rainier66.com>
 <22A6EA1E-C99A-42AD-A5D9-49D0D9B47F90@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011801da02de$55e61bf0$01b253d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Gadersd via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] cryo billionaires

 

Die a cryo millionaire and wake up a cryo billionaire.





On Oct 19, 2023, at 4:25 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
wrote:

 

 

 

<image001.jpg>

_______________________________________________



 

Fortunately Gadersd, ja, she sure did.  The billions her millions earned
allowed her to rent a nice apartment near the fast food place where her
minimum wage was raised to 20 million bucks an hour.

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 22:59:08 2023
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 16:59:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] cryo billionaires
In-Reply-To: <22A6EA1E-C99A-42AD-A5D9-49D0D9B47F90@gmail.com>
References: <00d001da02ca$64f443b0$2edccb10$@rainier66.com>
 <22A6EA1E-C99A-42AD-A5D9-49D0D9B47F90@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onuGp3U_wB8MaO6XyNrHRbV4qc6eLDEWhVhaZVY_=1R=aQ@mail.gmail.com>

NO!
You need a few frames showing the righteous (i.e. those that are
cryonically preserved)  "Coming forth in the Morning of the
First Resurrection
<https://allstandtall.blogspot.com/2020/08/what-does-it-mean-to-come-forth-in.html>".
The first cryonic person being resurrected being the start of the
"millenium", the time of the "great equalization" when the first shall be
last and the last shall be first
<https://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/20-16.html#:~:text=Matthew%2020%3A16%20in%20Other%20Translations&text=16%20%E2%80%9CSo%20those%20who%20are,%2C%20and%20the%20last%20first.%22>.
Once the first are resurrected, "The hearts of the children will then turn
to their fathers
<https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/mal/4?lang=eng>:
and they will resurrect their parents, and they, their parents....  till
all things are made just and equalized.  The millennium can't be completed
till that has been achieved for all.  It'll probably take Hitter a few
gazillion years of being a slave to all the Jews that died after he does
all the work to help resurrect them all....  But even that will eventually
be eazy, as he continue to approach omnipotence.

As portrayed in in my fan fiction 1229 Years After Titanic
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ybLgIbOSDu9-ye1wAu9B5RnCBuSVcIihtXrhtVWZajo/edit>
.


















On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 3:02?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Die a cryo millionaire and wake up a cryo billionaire.
>
> On Oct 19, 2023, at 4:25 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 23:14:37 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 00:14:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 at 18:27, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Keith, as I recall from having done the end-to-end calcs on this with Robert Bradbury about 20 yrs ago, this will pencil out much better if low-grade bituminous coal is the feedstock rather than air extraction or the high priced limited supply of anthracite coal.  If external energy is in plentiful supply, the lowest grade highest sulfur coal still pencils out, and even peat as a feeder, iiiiiifffff... the peat is right there, to reduce the transport cost.  Peat is cheap but it still hasta be close by.
>
> There is bituminous coal available in or near the Sahara, but I don't know about peat.
>
> My predictions stands: we will continue to need liquid fuels, eventually the Fischer-Tropsch process will be used, the energy will come from solar, good chance the facility will be close to the Atlantic coast in Africa (in order to have access to sufficient quantities of cooling water (and to transport coal in and to haul liquid hydrocarbons out.))
>
> My prediction comes with a caveat: for a big segment of our population takes constant power for granted, without ever worrying where it will come from.  They will view any notion of converting coal to liquid fuel as heresy.
>
> However... I do hope everyone will ponder this next comment: we moderns are completely dependent on reliable power.  If we have major power failures or even major communications system failures, society will collapse and people will die bigtime.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


I doubt that coal liquefaction will be allowed.
The agreement by many nations (not China) to phase out burning coal in
power stations was necessary to meet the Paris Agreement targets. The
primary objective of the Paris Agreement is to reduce greenhouse gas
emissions and transition to cleaner energy sources. This almost
certainly means that coal liquefaction will also be ruled out.
The power stations will be solar, wind or atomic.
It has to be electric tractors and combines for farmers and electric
trucks for transport.

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 19 23:39:05 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 16:39:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7RJ_fi_ORAjypp07GSnSWk84URaCigBLX7hS+rr8HMBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 4:16?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

snip

> I doubt that coal liquefaction will be allowed.

Possibly not.  However, odds are the first place will be in Qatar.  I
can't see the government there denying any industrial project.

> The agreement by many nations (not China) to phase out burning coal in
> power stations was necessary to meet the Paris Agreement targets. The
> primary objective of the Paris Agreement is to reduce greenhouse gas
> emissions and transition to cleaner energy sources. This almost
> certainly means that coal liquefaction will also be ruled out.
> The power stations will be solar, wind or atomic.
> It has to be electric tractors and combines for farmers and electric
> trucks for transport.

Electric farm equipment is a long way in the future.  The government
is not going to cut off the use of fossil fuels for farming no matter
how hot it gets.

Would you feel better about this if there was a large air capture
project starting up as well?

Keith

> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct 20 04:41:11 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 21:41:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
... _______________________________________________


>...I doubt that coal liquefaction will be allowed.
>...The agreement by many nations (not China)... BillK

BillK, thanks for including the parenthetical not China part, for my
prediction is that it will be specifically China which is most likely to
proceed with the project, for two reasons.  The first is that it was granted
Developing Nation status by the UN.  There is no established criterion by
which a developing nation stops developing.  So... they can do whatever they
want with respect to coal liquefaction.  They want.  Second reason: if those
four nations I mentioned, China is the most likely to try to buy a hunk of
Africa and enforce a border with military force.

Another factor: they have a big desert too, the Gobi.  It isn't as well
suited for the purpose as West Africa, because it lacks availability of
sufficient water needed for the Fischer Tropsch process, so they would need
to pipe in both seawater (for cooling) and fresh water (for the process) as
well as pipe out the oil and truck in the coal.  It isn't clear to me if
they would prefer to attempt to buy and defend a hunk of the Sahara.  They
might try both.

spike
_______________________________________________


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct 20 05:09:04 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 22:09:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] earthquake prediction
In-Reply-To: <009601da01ee$95070380$bf150a80$@rainier66.com>
References: <007701da01e1$9d944420$d8bccc60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgrm2grpUKkkHasc6cg5vMcoaUZGgXHLXwmjD_CU9BRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009601da01ee$95070380$bf150a80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <006301da0313$8c8e5110$a5aaf330$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
...
> _______________________________________________


Oct 05, 2023
AI-Driven Earthquake Forecasting Shows Promise in Trials


<https://news.utexas.edu/2023/10/05/ai-driven-earthquake-forecasting-shows-promise-in-trials/>

BillK
...
---------------------


_______________________________________________


To end this thread on a lighter (yet still most annoying) note: by sheer coincidence, the earthquake alert triggered yesterday by the (real) 5.7 epicentered 90 km NE of here happened the day before the authorities had already planned a drill designed to verify the new emergency alert system.  One might think that the occurrence of the real thing would suffice, resulting in cancellation of the drill.  But nooooooo...

The drill was planned for 10:19 a.m. today, but some yahoo somehow mistakenly programmed it to take place at 10:19 Zulu.

BillK, no one is blaming you, just because you happen to live on Zulu time, or Greenwich Mean Time if you prefer.  Not your fault, me lad.  You didn't invent the system, you just live there.

In any case, all three phones in my home began angrily honking urgent warnings to duck and cover at 3:19 a.m.  Like the Christmas guy in the poem, there arose such a clatter, I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter.  I became most annoyed, as well as flatly refusing to duck and cover, being as the urgent message was for a 5.0 earthquake (which is mere child's play) east of San Francisco, to happen seven hours in the future.  Weelllll shit.  Were they suggesting we stay ducked and covered the entire time until then?  Absurd.  

I failed to see the humor in the whole tech misadventure.

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 20 16:39:07 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 09:39:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5F3HGjUUO+Ajs5nR+9GRfETJfpOK2GaKfTeRgDATXH-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 9:42?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> ... _______________________________________________
>
>
> >...I doubt that coal liquefaction will be allowed.
> >...The agreement by many nations (not China)... BillK
>
> BillK, thanks for including the parenthetical not China part, for my
> prediction is that it will be specifically China which is most likely to
> proceed with the project, for two reasons.  The first is that it was granted
> Developing Nation status by the UN.  There is no established criterion by
> which a developing nation stops developing.  So... they can do whatever they
> want with respect to coal liquefaction.  They want.  Second reason: if those
> four nations I mentioned, China is the most likely to try to buy a hunk of
> Africa and enforce a border with military force.

The future is impossible to predict, but I don't think you can defend PV

> Another factor: they have a big desert too, the Gobi.  It isn't as well
> suited for the purpose as West Africa, because it lacks availability of
> sufficient water needed for the Fischer Tropsch process,

To the best of my knowledge, Fischer Tropsch does not use a lot of water.

Please correct me if I have this wrong.

> so they would need
> to pipe in both seawater (for cooling) and fresh water (for the process) as
> well as pipe out the oil and truck in the coal.  It isn't clear to me if
> they would prefer to attempt to buy and defend a hunk of the Sahara.  They
> might try both.

The Gobi is far to the north making the PV output highly seasonal.
This method is less sensitive if you have an empty gas field to store
the syngas, but there are capital equipment charges to consider.  I
have looked into the PV in the Mideast and it averages 9/24 without
much seasonal variation.

Long run, perhaps West Africa will be used this way, but short term,
Qatar has 140,000 bbl per day (5800 bbl/hr) of existing F/T production
from gas.  I don't know when that gas will run out, but when it does
coal (if they use this trick) will come in by ship.

Hmm.  7,3 bbl.ton or 800 t/h. Carbon is 12/14 of this. Half of the
carbon is lost in making more hydrogen, so the coal input is 1370 tons
per hour.  Vaporizing a ton of coal takes 3 MWh/ton giving an
electrical input of 4.1 GW average and because it is intermittent, 11
GW when the sun is up. 11 GW is a large block of power, but the Saudis
have signed a deal for 300 GW of solar by 2030.

The Saudis pump about 6 million bbl/day.  It would take around 43 of
the Qatar plants to equal this and the plants would draw about 471 GW
while the sun is up.  I don't think this is likely, but the Saudis
*could* switch over and sell this kind of synthetic oil for at least
another generation.

Sorry for all the math but I can't say if something is a good idea or
not without working the numbers.  I realize I am an extreme outlier in
this respect.

Keith

Keith

> spike
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Oct 20 17:46:39 2023
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 12:46:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The meaning of life? Let's solve this together, once and
 for all! ; )
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUjj54f7WeZVL7mpUZVr+NisCcaC-hvgaWHe6fNyUm1zvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31c8f424-9eea-e307-1fe8-340357edff7d@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUgm=Rg1LqnP1SYoF6vny92DU0+hxgxNUGbQkdSLkF-faA@mail.gmail.com>
 <883d2dbd-9a59-9404-473d-9baa47f4ef1e@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUjcSHqOSt96P8zfZ0MN=z6Uxb0iQ-+4hjU7CFcpa516kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <31b25f72-5f7b-16a5-09a0-788b5421a33b@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUjj54f7WeZVL7mpUZVr+NisCcaC-hvgaWHe6fNyUm1zvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUiKYrvhZKTv-SAPr+VTA24avJY_iTjsTsMB70ret_N2gA@mail.gmail.com>

+ Extropy

On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:45?PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 1:13?PM <efc at swisscows.email> wrote:
>
>> Good evening Jason,
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2023, Jason Resch wrote:
>>
>> >       Interesting! I think we might have a first point of divergence
>> here.
>> >       When it comes to the meaning of life, I'm not so interested
>> actually in
>> >       the reason. That is a question I leave to science as in what's the
>> >       reason I am here, evolution, reproduction etc.
>> >
>> >       Purpose, could also stray close to science, as in propagating
>> genes, but
>> >       purpose could also be given a deeper meaning I think, so this is
>> getting
>> >       closer.
>> >
>> >       When it comes to value, I think it would be interesting to see
>> how value
>> >       is measured and in what "currency"?
>> >
>> > Some have come up with the term "utils" (or alternatively hedons,
>> utiles, utilons).
>>
>> Well, those are all good in that they do not have any connotations like
>> currency, but I still wonder about how they would be quantified.
>>
>> >       When I think about meaning of life, I think about something which
>> gives
>> >       me a deep sense of connection to the universe, it could be an over
>> >       arching theme of my life, perhaps an ultimate quest or journey
>> which
>> >       fills my life with significance. (I tried on purpose to not use
>> the
>> >       words value or purpose here, so see if you can perhaps find a
>> better
>> >       word in english for me to use.)
>> >
>> >       I also distinguish between levels of meaning. The paragraph above
>> is the
>> >       "ultimate" or final deep seated meaning that transforms the way
>> you
>> >       live. There is also a more mundande level of meaning to me, such
>> as
>> >       evolution, propagating genes, provide for my family, being a
>> positive
>> >       and contributing part of our global economy and thus on a tiny
>> level
>> >       making life better for everyone.
>> >
>> >       Those types of meaning, I consider philosophical chicken soup.
>> It's nice
>> >       to say, it's nice to think about, but I wouldn't say that any of
>> those
>> >       things fundamentally shift the way I live my life. They are kind
>> of
>> >       "bolted on" a lifestyle that I was given by my culture and
>> parents. So
>> >       perhaps a benefit by verbalizing them, is that my life, given
>> those
>> >       reasons as a backdrop, might be lived more consciously than just
>> going
>> >       through the motions and not thinking about how, what you do,
>> contributes
>> >       to the rest of humanity and the world we're in.
>> >
>> >       Do I make any sense?
>> >
>> > I think I see what you are pointing at.
>> >
>> > Is it what the Dzogchen seek? Is it God-Realization? Is it the
>> experience of Ego Death?
>>
>> I don't know, but I think it could be the same experience regardless of
>> if it is called mystical union, god-realization, ego-death, or
>> enlightement. That's my theory at least.
>>
>> I always assumed, that this would be the top of Maslows scale, but
>> perhaps it could be argued that this is a difference scale? Or do you
>> think it is related? Thinking about what I read and seen about saints,
>> it certainly seems like the ultimate and supreme experience for them, so
>> that would perhaps indicate that it does belong to the scale.
>>
>> > I think what is common in all of these is transcending the illusion of
>> the self as one small part of existence, and expanding one's
>> > self-identification to the whole, or the all. This, as you say, can
>> rewrite, or transform one's approach to life, interaction with
>> > others, and perhaps make one more "selfless."
>>
>> I wonder if expanding ones range of consciousness or expanding ones
>> quality of consciousness might be a better way to describe it? Illusion
>> and union to me is very imprecise, but I don't know if anyone ever
>> managed to capture what happens in the brain at the moment of
>> enlightenment. I'm fairly sure that psilocybin trips have been captured,
>> but are those smaller intensity examples on the same scale as the
>> ultimate union, or is the ultimate union something different? I have no
>> idea, but I think it is very interesting to think about.
>>
>> >       > states of awareness / consciousness. Those things that are
>> "instrumentally meaningful" are valuable only in so far as
>> >       their potential
>> >       > to affect states of consciousness.
>> >
>> >       Isn't "valuable only in so far as their potential to affect
>> states of
>> >       consciousness" a truism?
>> >
>> > I think so. But it is a clarifying truism, and one that often goes not
>> directly acknowledged.
>>
>> Fair point!
>>
>> >       By the fact that we are physical beings with
>> >       conscisoussness, wouldn't that mean everything is meaningful?
>> >
>> > I think there is some meaning (value) in every conscious experience
>> (which may be regarded as negative or positive, on the whole).
>>
>> You mean value in terms of realizing meaning? That all experiences
>> detract or add to the final goal of realizing meaning?
>>
>> >       I agree to the extent that realizing deep seated meaning and
>> values, is
>> >       a mental process, fed with impressions and experiences from the
>> physical
>> >       world, or perhaps, not even that. It could be argued that some
>> actually
>> >       starve the mind of impressions and experiences to find their deep
>> seated
>> >       meaning.
>> >
>> > Yes, perhaps this is why some use meditation or sensory deprivation as
>> a path to bring about such an experience of the kind you
>> > allude to.
>>
>> That would be my theory.
>>
>> >       > If we accept this premise, then the question is somewhat
>> simplified. What are the desirous states of consciousness that
>> >       we seek?
>> >
>> >       Yes, and how (if at all?) can these states be induced in a human
>> being
>> >       in a reliable way, to enrich that persons life?
>> >
>> > I can't speak to the reliability, but these are often mentioned:
>> >  *  Stroke and Traumatic Brain Injury
>> >  *  Transcranial Stimulation
>> >  *  Meditation
>> >  *  Sensory Deprivation
>> >  *  Fasting
>> >  *  Psychedelics / Entheogens
>> >  *  Thought
>> >  *  Koans
>> >  *  Action
>>
>> Good list! I would add spontaneous enlightement as well, although very
>> rare. I also wonder if near-death experiences would add anything to
>> this? But I guess that is to be found under stroke/traumatic brain
>> injry.
>>
>> In terms of meditation I would add the distinction:
>>
>> * Cataphatic (imaging God, imagination or words) ? e.g., The Spiritual
>>    Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Francis of
>>    Assisi; and
>>
>> * Apophatic (imageless, stillness, and wordlessness) ? inspired by the
>>    writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, which forms the basis of
>>    Eastern Orthodox mysticism and hesychasm, and became influential in
>>    western Catholic mysticism from the 12th century AD onward, as in The
>>    Cloud of Unknowing and Meister Eckhart.[69]
>>
>> Urban T. Holmes III categorized mystical theology in terms of whether it
>> focuses on illuminating the mind, which Holmes refers to as speculative
>> practice, or the heart/emotions, which he calls affective practice.
>> Combining the speculative/affective scale with the apophatic/cataphatic
>> scale allows for a range of categories:[70]
>>
>>      Rationalism = Cataphatic and speculative
>>      Pietism = Cataphatic and affective
>>      Encratism = Apophatic and speculative
>>      Quietism = Apophatic and affective
>>
>> When it comes to psychedelics, what I wonder about is how exact the
>> mapping of compound to effect is?
>>
>> I heard that some people get hooked on the mystical experience and come
>> back to psychedelics again and again and that in turn makes me wonder
>> about how healthy that behaviour is, vs a more "natural" way to achieve
>> the experience.
>>
>> >       I agree. For me, essential meaning is a deel personal question. I
>> do
>> >       however believe that the process of finding or reaching this
>> state can
>> >       be fed by philosophy and science. I think that exploring theories
>> beyond
>> >       our world could lead one to make the necessary connections in the
>> brain,
>> >       that inspires one to deeper meaning.
>> >
>> >       So yes, it is deeply subjective, yet I think that actions and
>> thoughts
>> >       can influence the process so it is not completely devoid of
>> tangible
>> >       starting points.
>> >
>> > I do think certain thought patterns/ideas can help bring about the
>> experience. For example, meditating deeply on the question of how
>> > one came to exist. Or even watching a movie like "The Prestige" which
>> is about what one experiences when duplicated. I think reading
>> > Arnold Zuboff's arguments in "One self: the logic of experience" can be
>> helpful as well, but all of these can only "bring the horse
>> > to the water", so to speak. It is up to the person to do the drinking.
>>
>> Agreed!
>>
>> >       >       But for me, that is not Meaning with a capital m. All the
>> previous levels in
>> >       >       Maslows pyramid contribute to a good life, but at the top
>> with have the
>> >       >       mystical self-actualization, and I am somewhat attracted
>> to the earth (or
>> >       >       universe) shattering realizations of a union with the
>> universe that the mystics
>> >       >       talk about.
>> >       >
>> >       > Or as variously described as:
>> >       > Moksha
>> >       > Nirvana
>> >       > Enlightenment
>> >
>> >       Yes. But I'm not happy with the religious overtones,
>> >
>> > While these terms are used in various religions, I don't find these
>> particularly religious concepts, rather, they represent the
>> > common mystic teaching, which is almost universal across societies and
>> times (the perennial philosophy). Which I think is what you
>> > allude to as the origin of religion, the fundamental experience itself.
>>
>> True. Well, I guess it is mostly individual. To me, they bring
>> connotations of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zen. But as you say, referring to
>> the same underlying experience.
>>
>> >       and I wonder if it
>> >       is possible to achieve such a state outside of a religious
>> tradition, or
>> >       if the tradition is necessary for achievement of that state?
>> >
>> > I think it's quite possible to experience it outside of a religious
>> tradition.
>>
>> Have you ever heard about it or read a book that discusses that theme?
>>
>
> I can't say I have read a book about this as a theme, but I have seen
> multiple independent people report their own experience of it, for example:
>
>
> "Enlightenment came to me suddenly and unexpectedly one afternoon in March
> when I was walking up to the school notice board to see whether my name was
> on the list for tomorrow?s football game. I was not on the list. And in a
> blinding flash of inner light I saw the answer to both my problems, the
> problem of war and the problem of injustice. The answer was amazingly
> simple. I called it Cosmic Unity. Cosmic Unity said: There is only one of
> us. We are all the same person. I am you and I am Winston Churchill and
> Hitler and Gandhi and everybody. There is no problem of injustice because
> your sufferings are also mine. There will be no problem of war as soon as
> you understand that in killing me you are only killing yourself."
> -- Freeman Dyson <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson> in ?*Disturbing
> The Universe
> <https://books.google.com/books/about/Disturbing_the_Universe.html?id=toXgAAAAMAAJ>*?
> (1979)
>
>
>
>>
>> I would be very interested if such a spontaneous experience caused a
>> non-religious person to become religious, or if it somehow detracted
>> from the experience, or what fundamental changes in that persons life
>> resulted from it.
>>
>> Coming from a religious framework might give you some conceptual tools
>> to analyze or deal with the experience. Not having that framework, I
>> wonder if a person creates their own, or if the experience fades to a
>> pleasant memory?
>>
>> I vaguely remember watching a documentary about mycologist Paul Stamets
>> where he talked about a mushroom induced experience, but I don't know if
>> he had any religious upbringing or not.
>>
>
> This also seems quite common as reported by those who have had near death
> experiences, and the profound effect that has on individuals who experience
> it. There are several youtube channels dedicated to interviewing those who
> have had such experiences.
>
>
>>
>> >       I don't know if it is true or not, but wasn't the Buddha agnostic
>> on the
>> >       question of gods?
>> >
>> > It varies a bit depending on which sect of Buddhism you emphasize, but
>> there is, nonetheless, a general agreement that mind is what
>> > is primarily behind everything. Here are some passages that show the
>> spectrum of Buddhist thinking on the question:
>> >
>> > "All the phenomena of existence have mind as their precursor, mind as
>> their supreme leader, and of mind are they made."
>> > -- Gautama Buddha in ?The Dhammapada? (c. 500 B.C.)
>>
>> Ahh, perhaps time to whip out the old Dhammapada again? =) Too bad it is
>> in a box in my attic in Sweden, but good old internet to the rescue!
>>
>> > "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my
>> essence. [?] Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that
>> > lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein are
>> my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I
>> > am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me.
>> [?] All that manifests from my Body, my Voice, and my Mind
>> > springs from my essence, is re-absorbed in it, and is nothing other
>> than my essence."
>> > -- Kulayar?ja Tantra 55.1 (c. 850 A.D.)
>> >
>> > Both of these passages place mind at the base of reality. But Tibetan
>> Buddhism describes this "pure and total consciousness" as the
>> > "supreme source" from which everything emanates, and thus you might
>> identify this almost like "God", perhaps more of the flavor of
>> > Atman of Hinduism.
>> >
>> > I think there is much we can learn from the study of old
>> ideas, whatever their source. Rather than trying to rediscover everything
>> > from scratch, people have recorded their thoughts and ideas going back
>> thousands of years, covering many billions of lives.
>>
>> Agreed! In some cases the ancients where quite right in their guesses
>> although they did not have the framework. Then we rediscover it and also
>> discover why and how it connect to everything else. I wonder how much
>> there is left in these ancient traditions that will be confirmed by
>> science?
>>
>> >       Might it be possible to distill those concepts into a more
>> neutral or
>> >       descriptive one, and distill the various techniques of achieving
>> it for
>> >       people to try?
>> >
>> > Probably. But I don't know whether that would be better or worse.
>>
>> We'll probably only know when we actually do try. See point above about
>> people getting addicted to union through psychedelics and keep going
>> back.
>>
>> >       Will that be in any way beneficial and enriching for people, or,
>> would
>> >       it risk people getting addicted to the experience to the
>> detriment of
>> >       "normal" society?
>> >
>> > I think experiments that have looked at giving ordinary people mystical
>> experiences, have generally reported it as a profound
>> > positive impact on their life.
>>
>> I vaguely remember results ranging from nothing, to nice to have, to
>> profound positive impact. But I do not remember any reasoning about why
>> some had profound experiences while other nothing at all. Mental or
>> biological setup? Aptitute? Placebo? Luck?
>>
>> >       > Which I would say, is understanding who you really are.
>> >
>> >       What do we mean when we ask who we are?
>> >
>> > This gets back to our discussion on personal identity.
>> > What experiences are ours. Why was "I" born as this person? Am "I" only
>> this person? Am I the universe experiencing all lives, but
>> > only in a position to know one at a time? etc.
>> > Have you seen The Egg?
>>
>> True! No, haven't seen. Do you have a link?
>>
>
> I included the link in my original e-mail. Perhaps your email client does
> not show links?
> In any case, here is the URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI
>
>
>>
>> >       I don't know if I agree with the definition of absence of pain or
>> not,
>> >       but I do agree that it is a much better definition than
>> "pleasure". Is
>> >       contentment the absence of pain? Or is it more?
>> >
>> > Dictionary.com gives "the state of being contented; satisfaction; ease
>> of mind."
>> > Ease of mind, I would say, is more or less the same as an "absence of
>> pain in the body and of trouble in the soul."
>>
>> Got it.
>>
>> >       > Yes happiness or contentment are good. Epicurus defined it
>> negatively, in terms of absence of pain and suffering, which
>> >       I think is
>> >       > close to the same thing as contentment.
>> >
>> >       Ah, you answered my question above. To me as a non-native english
>> >       speaker, it feels as if there is a difference between contentment
>> and
>> >       absence of pain. I think perhaps the reason could be that I have
>> a worse
>> >       grasp of the nuances of the language, and perhaps, the culture I
>> grew up
>> >       in (swedish)?
>> >
>> > Contentment I think often bears a connotation of "mild happiness".
>>
>> That would match my own feeling when I here contentment. I personally
>> also add a time dimension, where contentment is a longer lasting feeling
>> than joy or happiness, which for me, personally, are more peak
>> experiences.
>>
>> >       Why would I be made happier if I had a way to create (and this is
>> just a
>> >       thought experiment) small, happy consciousnesses without being
>> able to
>> >       improve my own position?
>> >
>> > It's not that you would be made happier by creating more experiences.
>> Rather, it's that all conscious life regards having more
>> > positive experiences as better than fewer conscious experiences.
>>
>> Ah ok, I misunderstood. One more clarifying question, what do you mean
>> when you say more positive experiences vs fewer conscious experiences?
>> You are comparing positive vs conscious but positive is also conscious?
>>
>> > For the same reason that I hope you would see the destruction of Earth
>> as a negative: the continuance of consciousness life on earth
>> > is regarded as a "good thing" because it allows for more conscious
>> experiences to be created.
>>
>> Maybe. A nr of theoretical thought experiments can be made up where the
>> destruction of Earth might actually be a good thing. I also do lean more
>> toward quality than quantity, because if more conscious experiences are
>> created but do end up in suffering, then perhaps it wasn't so good after
>> all? But in order to avoid the utilitarian trap, I prefer to focus on
>> individual meaning instead of groups of additive carriers of meaning and
>> positivity.
>>
>> >       Sounds depressing to me that my life function
>> >       would be to create life, instead of living the life I have.
>> >
>> > That's not your life function, it's a universal value that more
>> experiences are better than fewer ones (when the experiences
>> > themselves are not negative ones). For example, I think anyone not in
>> pain or suffering tends to prefer continued life (for example)
>>
>> How would you say the it is a universal value? I can see how it would be
>> an individual value, but a collective and universal one, I'm not so
>> sure. Imagine that I live on planet A, by myself, and I have a good
>> life. Regardless of is person B on planet B lives and has a good life or
>> not, I'll never know, and I don't think the universe will care much
>> either. I do agree that I'm having a good life, and that's great, and I
>> do agree that person B is having a good life, and that is great too. But
>> person B:s life, on planet B, doesn't really affect the meaning of my
>> life lived in planet A.
>>
>> I think I'm misunderstanding you here.
>>
>
> When I say it is a universal value, I mean it is a personal value for each
> individual conscious being for themselves (rather than something
> necessarily felt for all others in the universe). So it is universal only
> in the sense that all conscious life forms in the universe share that value.
>
>
>
>>
>> >       Maybe we should focus on quality and not quantity? Maybe there is
>> no
>> >       inherent benefit in just quantity?
>> >
>> > I think some balance is needed. Otherwise we are led to extremes like a
>> single mind having a permanent heroin high, or something like
>> > that. Likewise the value for variety, rather than just quantity or
>> quality.
>>
>> Yes, that is true. Many are the theoretical thought examples which
>> crush most, if not all, ethical theories. ;)
>>
>
> I came across this recently, which I found interesting. At least, it seems
> like an entirely novel basis for morality/ethics:
> https://philarchive.org/archive/ARNMAW
>
> Jason
>
>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>> >       > The trajectory of life, everywhere and anywhere in the universe
>> will, I think, follow this trajectory. We are, as
>> >       conscious beings,
>> >       > on a course to fill the universe with consciousness for the
>> purposes of realizing as many states of consciousness as
>> >       possible, to
>> >       > eliminate suffering and pain, and promote the creation of
>> positive experiences for all conscience beings.
>> >       > It may make little difference whether it is us or our machine
>> descendents that are in control, for I think all
>> >       conscious beings
>> >       > possess these goals, by virtue of the fact that they are
>> conscious, and will deduce logically that all utility comes
>> >       felt states of
>> >       > consciousness (just as humans have been deducing for centuries).
>> >
>> >       Best regards,
>> >       Daniel
>> >
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>> >
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 20 17:55:08 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 12:55:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The meaning of life? Let's solve this together, once and
 for all! ; )
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Well, those are all good in that they do not have any connotations like
currency, but I still wonder about how they would be quantified.  Jason

This is an example of self-report studies.  All of them will construct a
scale, like 1 to 10, put some adjectives along the dimension to describe
what a 7 means, and so on. Huge problems:  does one person's 7 equal
another person's 7.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It looks objective (it has
numbers) but isn't.  Reliability tests show only fair test-retest results.
Probably the least scientific way of doing psychology.  They hope that
errors will average out with large Ns.  bill w

On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:49?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> + Extropy
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:45?PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 1:13?PM <efc at swisscows.email> wrote:
>>
>>> Good evening Jason,
>>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Sep 2023, Jason Resch wrote:
>>>
>>> >       Interesting! I think we might have a first point of divergence
>>> here.
>>> >       When it comes to the meaning of life, I'm not so interested
>>> actually in
>>> >       the reason. That is a question I leave to science as in what's
>>> the
>>> >       reason I am here, evolution, reproduction etc.
>>> >
>>> >       Purpose, could also stray close to science, as in propagating
>>> genes, but
>>> >       purpose could also be given a deeper meaning I think, so this is
>>> getting
>>> >       closer.
>>> >
>>> >       When it comes to value, I think it would be interesting to see
>>> how value
>>> >       is measured and in what "currency"?
>>> >
>>> > Some have come up with the term "utils" (or alternatively hedons,
>>> utiles, utilons).
>>>
>>> Well, those are all good in that they do not have any connotations like
>>> currency, but I still wonder about how they would be quantified.
>>>
>>> >       When I think about meaning of life, I think about something
>>> which gives
>>> >       me a deep sense of connection to the universe, it could be an
>>> over
>>> >       arching theme of my life, perhaps an ultimate quest or journey
>>> which
>>> >       fills my life with significance. (I tried on purpose to not use
>>> the
>>> >       words value or purpose here, so see if you can perhaps find a
>>> better
>>> >       word in english for me to use.)
>>> >
>>> >       I also distinguish between levels of meaning. The paragraph
>>> above is the
>>> >       "ultimate" or final deep seated meaning that transforms the way
>>> you
>>> >       live. There is also a more mundande level of meaning to me, such
>>> as
>>> >       evolution, propagating genes, provide for my family, being a
>>> positive
>>> >       and contributing part of our global economy and thus on a tiny
>>> level
>>> >       making life better for everyone.
>>> >
>>> >       Those types of meaning, I consider philosophical chicken soup.
>>> It's nice
>>> >       to say, it's nice to think about, but I wouldn't say that any of
>>> those
>>> >       things fundamentally shift the way I live my life. They are kind
>>> of
>>> >       "bolted on" a lifestyle that I was given by my culture and
>>> parents. So
>>> >       perhaps a benefit by verbalizing them, is that my life, given
>>> those
>>> >       reasons as a backdrop, might be lived more consciously than just
>>> going
>>> >       through the motions and not thinking about how, what you do,
>>> contributes
>>> >       to the rest of humanity and the world we're in.
>>> >
>>> >       Do I make any sense?
>>> >
>>> > I think I see what you are pointing at.
>>> >
>>> > Is it what the Dzogchen seek? Is it God-Realization? Is it the
>>> experience of Ego Death?
>>>
>>> I don't know, but I think it could be the same experience regardless of
>>> if it is called mystical union, god-realization, ego-death, or
>>> enlightement. That's my theory at least.
>>>
>>> I always assumed, that this would be the top of Maslows scale, but
>>> perhaps it could be argued that this is a difference scale? Or do you
>>> think it is related? Thinking about what I read and seen about saints,
>>> it certainly seems like the ultimate and supreme experience for them, so
>>> that would perhaps indicate that it does belong to the scale.
>>>
>>> > I think what is common in all of these is transcending the illusion of
>>> the self as one small part of existence, and expanding one's
>>> > self-identification to the whole, or the all. This, as you say, can
>>> rewrite, or transform one's approach to life, interaction with
>>> > others, and perhaps make one more "selfless."
>>>
>>> I wonder if expanding ones range of consciousness or expanding ones
>>> quality of consciousness might be a better way to describe it? Illusion
>>> and union to me is very imprecise, but I don't know if anyone ever
>>> managed to capture what happens in the brain at the moment of
>>> enlightenment. I'm fairly sure that psilocybin trips have been captured,
>>> but are those smaller intensity examples on the same scale as the
>>> ultimate union, or is the ultimate union something different? I have no
>>> idea, but I think it is very interesting to think about.
>>>
>>> >       > states of awareness / consciousness. Those things that are
>>> "instrumentally meaningful" are valuable only in so far as
>>> >       their potential
>>> >       > to affect states of consciousness.
>>> >
>>> >       Isn't "valuable only in so far as their potential to affect
>>> states of
>>> >       consciousness" a truism?
>>> >
>>> > I think so. But it is a clarifying truism, and one that often goes not
>>> directly acknowledged.
>>>
>>> Fair point!
>>>
>>> >       By the fact that we are physical beings with
>>> >       conscisoussness, wouldn't that mean everything is meaningful?
>>> >
>>> > I think there is some meaning (value) in every conscious experience
>>> (which may be regarded as negative or positive, on the whole).
>>>
>>> You mean value in terms of realizing meaning? That all experiences
>>> detract or add to the final goal of realizing meaning?
>>>
>>> >       I agree to the extent that realizing deep seated meaning and
>>> values, is
>>> >       a mental process, fed with impressions and experiences from the
>>> physical
>>> >       world, or perhaps, not even that. It could be argued that some
>>> actually
>>> >       starve the mind of impressions and experiences to find their
>>> deep seated
>>> >       meaning.
>>> >
>>> > Yes, perhaps this is why some use meditation or sensory deprivation as
>>> a path to bring about such an experience of the kind you
>>> > allude to.
>>>
>>> That would be my theory.
>>>
>>> >       > If we accept this premise, then the question is somewhat
>>> simplified. What are the desirous states of consciousness that
>>> >       we seek?
>>> >
>>> >       Yes, and how (if at all?) can these states be induced in a human
>>> being
>>> >       in a reliable way, to enrich that persons life?
>>> >
>>> > I can't speak to the reliability, but these are often mentioned:
>>> >  *  Stroke and Traumatic Brain Injury
>>> >  *  Transcranial Stimulation
>>> >  *  Meditation
>>> >  *  Sensory Deprivation
>>> >  *  Fasting
>>> >  *  Psychedelics / Entheogens
>>> >  *  Thought
>>> >  *  Koans
>>> >  *  Action
>>>
>>> Good list! I would add spontaneous enlightement as well, although very
>>> rare. I also wonder if near-death experiences would add anything to
>>> this? But I guess that is to be found under stroke/traumatic brain
>>> injry.
>>>
>>> In terms of meditation I would add the distinction:
>>>
>>> * Cataphatic (imaging God, imagination or words) ? e.g., The Spiritual
>>>    Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Francis of
>>>    Assisi; and
>>>
>>> * Apophatic (imageless, stillness, and wordlessness) ? inspired by the
>>>    writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, which forms the basis of
>>>    Eastern Orthodox mysticism and hesychasm, and became influential in
>>>    western Catholic mysticism from the 12th century AD onward, as in The
>>>    Cloud of Unknowing and Meister Eckhart.[69]
>>>
>>> Urban T. Holmes III categorized mystical theology in terms of whether it
>>> focuses on illuminating the mind, which Holmes refers to as speculative
>>> practice, or the heart/emotions, which he calls affective practice.
>>> Combining the speculative/affective scale with the apophatic/cataphatic
>>> scale allows for a range of categories:[70]
>>>
>>>      Rationalism = Cataphatic and speculative
>>>      Pietism = Cataphatic and affective
>>>      Encratism = Apophatic and speculative
>>>      Quietism = Apophatic and affective
>>>
>>> When it comes to psychedelics, what I wonder about is how exact the
>>> mapping of compound to effect is?
>>>
>>> I heard that some people get hooked on the mystical experience and come
>>> back to psychedelics again and again and that in turn makes me wonder
>>> about how healthy that behaviour is, vs a more "natural" way to achieve
>>> the experience.
>>>
>>> >       I agree. For me, essential meaning is a deel personal question.
>>> I do
>>> >       however believe that the process of finding or reaching this
>>> state can
>>> >       be fed by philosophy and science. I think that exploring
>>> theories beyond
>>> >       our world could lead one to make the necessary connections in
>>> the brain,
>>> >       that inspires one to deeper meaning.
>>> >
>>> >       So yes, it is deeply subjective, yet I think that actions and
>>> thoughts
>>> >       can influence the process so it is not completely devoid of
>>> tangible
>>> >       starting points.
>>> >
>>> > I do think certain thought patterns/ideas can help bring about the
>>> experience. For example, meditating deeply on the question of how
>>> > one came to exist. Or even watching a movie like "The Prestige" which
>>> is about what one experiences when duplicated. I think reading
>>> > Arnold Zuboff's arguments in "One self: the logic of experience" can
>>> be helpful as well, but all of these can only "bring the horse
>>> > to the water", so to speak. It is up to the person to do the drinking.
>>>
>>> Agreed!
>>>
>>> >       >       But for me, that is not Meaning with a capital m. All
>>> the previous levels in
>>> >       >       Maslows pyramid contribute to a good life, but at the
>>> top with have the
>>> >       >       mystical self-actualization, and I am somewhat attracted
>>> to the earth (or
>>> >       >       universe) shattering realizations of a union with the
>>> universe that the mystics
>>> >       >       talk about.
>>> >       >
>>> >       > Or as variously described as:
>>> >       > Moksha
>>> >       > Nirvana
>>> >       > Enlightenment
>>> >
>>> >       Yes. But I'm not happy with the religious overtones,
>>> >
>>> > While these terms are used in various religions, I don't find these
>>> particularly religious concepts, rather, they represent the
>>> > common mystic teaching, which is almost universal across societies and
>>> times (the perennial philosophy). Which I think is what you
>>> > allude to as the origin of religion, the fundamental experience itself.
>>>
>>> True. Well, I guess it is mostly individual. To me, they bring
>>> connotations of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zen. But as you say, referring to
>>> the same underlying experience.
>>>
>>> >       and I wonder if it
>>> >       is possible to achieve such a state outside of a religious
>>> tradition, or
>>> >       if the tradition is necessary for achievement of that state?
>>> >
>>> > I think it's quite possible to experience it outside of a religious
>>> tradition.
>>>
>>> Have you ever heard about it or read a book that discusses that theme?
>>>
>>
>> I can't say I have read a book about this as a theme, but I have seen
>> multiple independent people report their own experience of it, for example:
>>
>>
>> "Enlightenment came to me suddenly and unexpectedly one afternoon in
>> March when I was walking up to the school notice board to see whether my
>> name was on the list for tomorrow?s football game. I was not on the
>> list. And in a blinding flash of inner light I saw the answer to both my
>> problems, the problem of war and the problem of injustice. The answer was
>> amazingly simple. I called it Cosmic Unity. Cosmic Unity said: There is
>> only one of us. We are all the same person. I am you and I am Winston
>> Churchill and Hitler and Gandhi and everybody. There is no problem of
>> injustice because your sufferings are also mine. There will be no problem
>> of war as soon as you understand that in killing me you are only killing
>> yourself."
>> -- Freeman Dyson <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson> in ?*Disturbing
>> The Universe
>> <https://books.google.com/books/about/Disturbing_the_Universe.html?id=toXgAAAAMAAJ>*?
>> (1979)
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I would be very interested if such a spontaneous experience caused a
>>> non-religious person to become religious, or if it somehow detracted
>>> from the experience, or what fundamental changes in that persons life
>>> resulted from it.
>>>
>>> Coming from a religious framework might give you some conceptual tools
>>> to analyze or deal with the experience. Not having that framework, I
>>> wonder if a person creates their own, or if the experience fades to a
>>> pleasant memory?
>>>
>>> I vaguely remember watching a documentary about mycologist Paul Stamets
>>> where he talked about a mushroom induced experience, but I don't know if
>>> he had any religious upbringing or not.
>>>
>>
>> This also seems quite common as reported by those who have had near death
>> experiences, and the profound effect that has on individuals who experience
>> it. There are several youtube channels dedicated to interviewing those who
>> have had such experiences.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> >       I don't know if it is true or not, but wasn't the Buddha
>>> agnostic on the
>>> >       question of gods?
>>> >
>>> > It varies a bit depending on which sect of Buddhism you emphasize, but
>>> there is, nonetheless, a general agreement that mind is what
>>> > is primarily behind everything. Here are some passages that show the
>>> spectrum of Buddhist thinking on the question:
>>> >
>>> > "All the phenomena of existence have mind as their precursor, mind as
>>> their supreme leader, and of mind are they made."
>>> > -- Gautama Buddha in ?The Dhammapada? (c. 500 B.C.)
>>>
>>> Ahh, perhaps time to whip out the old Dhammapada again? =) Too bad it is
>>> in a box in my attic in Sweden, but good old internet to the rescue!
>>>
>>> > "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my
>>> essence. [?] Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that
>>> > lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein
>>> are my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I
>>> > am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me.
>>> [?] All that manifests from my Body, my Voice, and my Mind
>>> > springs from my essence, is re-absorbed in it, and is nothing other
>>> than my essence."
>>> > -- Kulayar?ja Tantra 55.1 (c. 850 A.D.)
>>> >
>>> > Both of these passages place mind at the base of reality. But Tibetan
>>> Buddhism describes this "pure and total consciousness" as the
>>> > "supreme source" from which everything emanates, and thus you might
>>> identify this almost like "God", perhaps more of the flavor of
>>> > Atman of Hinduism.
>>> >
>>> > I think there is much we can learn from the study of old
>>> ideas, whatever their source. Rather than trying to rediscover everything
>>> > from scratch, people have recorded their thoughts and ideas going back
>>> thousands of years, covering many billions of lives.
>>>
>>> Agreed! In some cases the ancients where quite right in their guesses
>>> although they did not have the framework. Then we rediscover it and also
>>> discover why and how it connect to everything else. I wonder how much
>>> there is left in these ancient traditions that will be confirmed by
>>> science?
>>>
>>> >       Might it be possible to distill those concepts into a more
>>> neutral or
>>> >       descriptive one, and distill the various techniques of achieving
>>> it for
>>> >       people to try?
>>> >
>>> > Probably. But I don't know whether that would be better or worse.
>>>
>>> We'll probably only know when we actually do try. See point above about
>>> people getting addicted to union through psychedelics and keep going
>>> back.
>>>
>>> >       Will that be in any way beneficial and enriching for people, or,
>>> would
>>> >       it risk people getting addicted to the experience to the
>>> detriment of
>>> >       "normal" society?
>>> >
>>> > I think experiments that have looked at giving ordinary people
>>> mystical experiences, have generally reported it as a profound
>>> > positive impact on their life.
>>>
>>> I vaguely remember results ranging from nothing, to nice to have, to
>>> profound positive impact. But I do not remember any reasoning about why
>>> some had profound experiences while other nothing at all. Mental or
>>> biological setup? Aptitute? Placebo? Luck?
>>>
>>> >       > Which I would say, is understanding who you really are.
>>> >
>>> >       What do we mean when we ask who we are?
>>> >
>>> > This gets back to our discussion on personal identity.
>>> > What experiences are ours. Why was "I" born as this person? Am "I"
>>> only this person? Am I the universe experiencing all lives, but
>>> > only in a position to know one at a time? etc.
>>> > Have you seen The Egg?
>>>
>>> True! No, haven't seen. Do you have a link?
>>>
>>
>> I included the link in my original e-mail. Perhaps your email client does
>> not show links?
>> In any case, here is the URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI
>>
>>
>>>
>>> >       I don't know if I agree with the definition of absence of pain
>>> or not,
>>> >       but I do agree that it is a much better definition than
>>> "pleasure". Is
>>> >       contentment the absence of pain? Or is it more?
>>> >
>>> > Dictionary.com gives "the state of being contented; satisfaction; ease
>>> of mind."
>>> > Ease of mind, I would say, is more or less the same as an "absence of
>>> pain in the body and of trouble in the soul."
>>>
>>> Got it.
>>>
>>> >       > Yes happiness or contentment are good. Epicurus defined it
>>> negatively, in terms of absence of pain and suffering, which
>>> >       I think is
>>> >       > close to the same thing as contentment.
>>> >
>>> >       Ah, you answered my question above. To me as a non-native english
>>> >       speaker, it feels as if there is a difference between
>>> contentment and
>>> >       absence of pain. I think perhaps the reason could be that I have
>>> a worse
>>> >       grasp of the nuances of the language, and perhaps, the culture I
>>> grew up
>>> >       in (swedish)?
>>> >
>>> > Contentment I think often bears a connotation of "mild happiness".
>>>
>>> That would match my own feeling when I here contentment. I personally
>>> also add a time dimension, where contentment is a longer lasting feeling
>>> than joy or happiness, which for me, personally, are more peak
>>> experiences.
>>>
>>> >       Why would I be made happier if I had a way to create (and this
>>> is just a
>>> >       thought experiment) small, happy consciousnesses without being
>>> able to
>>> >       improve my own position?
>>> >
>>> > It's not that you would be made happier by creating more experiences.
>>> Rather, it's that all conscious life regards having more
>>> > positive experiences as better than fewer conscious experiences.
>>>
>>> Ah ok, I misunderstood. One more clarifying question, what do you mean
>>> when you say more positive experiences vs fewer conscious experiences?
>>> You are comparing positive vs conscious but positive is also conscious?
>>>
>>> > For the same reason that I hope you would see the destruction of Earth
>>> as a negative: the continuance of consciousness life on earth
>>> > is regarded as a "good thing" because it allows for more conscious
>>> experiences to be created.
>>>
>>> Maybe. A nr of theoretical thought experiments can be made up where the
>>> destruction of Earth might actually be a good thing. I also do lean more
>>> toward quality than quantity, because if more conscious experiences are
>>> created but do end up in suffering, then perhaps it wasn't so good after
>>> all? But in order to avoid the utilitarian trap, I prefer to focus on
>>> individual meaning instead of groups of additive carriers of meaning and
>>> positivity.
>>>
>>> >       Sounds depressing to me that my life function
>>> >       would be to create life, instead of living the life I have.
>>> >
>>> > That's not your life function, it's a universal value that more
>>> experiences are better than fewer ones (when the experiences
>>> > themselves are not negative ones). For example, I think anyone not in
>>> pain or suffering tends to prefer continued life (for example)
>>>
>>> How would you say the it is a universal value? I can see how it would be
>>> an individual value, but a collective and universal one, I'm not so
>>> sure. Imagine that I live on planet A, by myself, and I have a good
>>> life. Regardless of is person B on planet B lives and has a good life or
>>> not, I'll never know, and I don't think the universe will care much
>>> either. I do agree that I'm having a good life, and that's great, and I
>>> do agree that person B is having a good life, and that is great too. But
>>> person B:s life, on planet B, doesn't really affect the meaning of my
>>> life lived in planet A.
>>>
>>> I think I'm misunderstanding you here.
>>>
>>
>> When I say it is a universal value, I mean it is a personal value for
>> each individual conscious being for themselves (rather than something
>> necessarily felt for all others in the universe). So it is universal only
>> in the sense that all conscious life forms in the universe share that value.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> >       Maybe we should focus on quality and not quantity? Maybe there
>>> is no
>>> >       inherent benefit in just quantity?
>>> >
>>> > I think some balance is needed. Otherwise we are led to extremes like
>>> a single mind having a permanent heroin high, or something like
>>> > that. Likewise the value for variety, rather than just quantity or
>>> quality.
>>>
>>> Yes, that is true. Many are the theoretical thought examples which
>>> crush most, if not all, ethical theories. ;)
>>>
>>
>> I came across this recently, which I found interesting. At least, it
>> seems like an entirely novel basis for morality/ethics:
>> https://philarchive.org/archive/ARNMAW
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>> >       > The trajectory of life, everywhere and anywhere in the
>>> universe will, I think, follow this trajectory. We are, as
>>> >       conscious beings,
>>> >       > on a course to fill the universe with consciousness for the
>>> purposes of realizing as many states of consciousness as
>>> >       possible, to
>>> >       > eliminate suffering and pain, and promote the creation of
>>> positive experiences for all conscience beings.
>>> >       > It may make little difference whether it is us or our machine
>>> descendents that are in control, for I think all
>>> >       conscious beings
>>> >       > possess these goals, by virtue of the fact that they are
>>> conscious, and will deduce logically that all utility comes
>>> >       felt states of
>>> >       > consciousness (just as humans have been deducing for
>>> centuries).
>>> >
>>> >       Best regards,
>>> >       Daniel
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> >
>>> > Jason
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 20 18:09:32 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 11:09:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6qPk1R138afGy=rAJrth7Yu71ZL1KnJZEjbrKkAZf06A@mail.gmail.com>

James Bowery suggested on LinkedIn

Why not go straight from heliostat process heat to syngas rather than
PVC panel to electricity to syngas?
https://synhelion.com/technology

I replied

I don't know of a way to get solar heat into the coal and steam. Good
point though, if we could figure out some way, the solar collector
area would be reduced by a factor of about 4. I am also not sure how
hot the coal has to get to react with the steam. Will try to find out,
historically it was "white hot."

One thought this sets off is to use concentrated solar being absorbed
behind a sapphire window by powdered coal in steam. Keeping the window
clean from coal tar might be done by a steam layer behind the window.

The big advantage of this is that you can store the syngas and not
have to worry about thermal storage to keep the rest of the plant
operating overnight.

Thanks for the discussion.

Keith

From gadersd at gmail.com  Fri Oct 20 18:48:48 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 14:48:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The meaning of life? Let's solve this together, once and
 for all! ; )
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbKE9F_N3_Knqjvk9TWuqTNkuxecHce9t01twWSw1SoWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31c8f424-9eea-e307-1fe8-340357edff7d@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUgm=Rg1LqnP1SYoF6vny92DU0+hxgxNUGbQkdSLkF-faA@mail.gmail.com>
 <883d2dbd-9a59-9404-473d-9baa47f4ef1e@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUjcSHqOSt96P8zfZ0MN=z6Uxb0iQ-+4hjU7CFcpa516kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <31b25f72-5f7b-16a5-09a0-788b5421a33b@swisscows.email>
 <CA+BCJUjj54f7WeZVL7mpUZVr+NisCcaC-hvgaWHe6fNyUm1zvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUiKYrvhZKTv-SAPr+VTA24avJY_iTjsTsMB70ret_N2gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbKE9F_N3_Knqjvk9TWuqTNkuxecHce9t01twWSw1SoWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37C18E7C-18F4-47F5-88CF-34D543F0A310@gmail.com>

> This is an example of self-report studies.  All of them will construct a scale, like 1 to 10, put some adjectives along the dimension to describe what a 7 means, and so on. Huge problems:  does one person's 7 equal another person's 7.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It looks objective (it has numbers) but isn't.  Reliability tests show only fair test-retest results.  Probably the least scientific way of doing psychology.  They hope that errors will average out with large Ns.  bill w

Is there a reliable way to measure the serotonin levels in the brain? I think this would probably be one of the best ways to quantify happiness assuming the brain chemistry of humans is sufficiently similar to compare in this way.

> On Oct 20, 2023, at 1:55 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Well, those are all good in that they do not have any connotations like
> currency, but I still wonder about how they would be quantified.  Jason
> 
> This is an example of self-report studies.  All of them will construct a scale, like 1 to 10, put some adjectives along the dimension to describe what a 7 means, and so on. Huge problems:  does one person's 7 equal another person's 7.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It looks objective (it has numbers) but isn't.  Reliability tests show only fair test-retest results.  Probably the least scientific way of doing psychology.  They hope that errors will average out with large Ns.  bill w
> 
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:49?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> + Extropy
> 
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:45?PM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com <mailto:jasonresch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2023 at 1:13?PM <efc at swisscows.email> wrote:
> Good evening Jason,
> 
> On Fri, 29 Sep 2023, Jason Resch wrote:
> 
> >       Interesting! I think we might have a first point of divergence here.
> >       When it comes to the meaning of life, I'm not so interested actually in
> >       the reason. That is a question I leave to science as in what's the
> >       reason I am here, evolution, reproduction etc.
> >
> >       Purpose, could also stray close to science, as in propagating genes, but
> >       purpose could also be given a deeper meaning I think, so this is getting
> >       closer.
> >
> >       When it comes to value, I think it would be interesting to see how value
> >       is measured and in what "currency"?
> > 
> > Some have come up with the term "utils" (or alternatively hedons, utiles, utilons).
> 
> Well, those are all good in that they do not have any connotations like
> currency, but I still wonder about how they would be quantified.
> 
> >       When I think about meaning of life, I think about something which gives
> >       me a deep sense of connection to the universe, it could be an over
> >       arching theme of my life, perhaps an ultimate quest or journey which
> >       fills my life with significance. (I tried on purpose to not use the
> >       words value or purpose here, so see if you can perhaps find a better
> >       word in english for me to use.)
> >
> >       I also distinguish between levels of meaning. The paragraph above is the
> >       "ultimate" or final deep seated meaning that transforms the way you
> >       live. There is also a more mundande level of meaning to me, such as
> >       evolution, propagating genes, provide for my family, being a positive
> >       and contributing part of our global economy and thus on a tiny level
> >       making life better for everyone.
> >
> >       Those types of meaning, I consider philosophical chicken soup. It's nice
> >       to say, it's nice to think about, but I wouldn't say that any of those
> >       things fundamentally shift the way I live my life. They are kind of
> >       "bolted on" a lifestyle that I was given by my culture and parents. So
> >       perhaps a benefit by verbalizing them, is that my life, given those
> >       reasons as a backdrop, might be lived more consciously than just going
> >       through the motions and not thinking about how, what you do, contributes
> >       to the rest of humanity and the world we're in.
> >
> >       Do I make any sense?
> > 
> > I think I see what you are pointing at.
> > 
> > Is it what the Dzogchen seek? Is it God-Realization? Is it the experience of Ego Death?
> 
> I don't know, but I think it could be the same experience regardless of
> if it is called mystical union, god-realization, ego-death, or
> enlightement. That's my theory at least.
> 
> I always assumed, that this would be the top of Maslows scale, but
> perhaps it could be argued that this is a difference scale? Or do you
> think it is related? Thinking about what I read and seen about saints,
> it certainly seems like the ultimate and supreme experience for them, so
> that would perhaps indicate that it does belong to the scale.
> 
> > I think what is common in all of these is transcending the illusion of the self as one small part of existence, and expanding one's
> > self-identification to the whole, or the all. This, as you say, can rewrite, or transform one's approach to life, interaction with
> > others, and perhaps make one more "selfless."
> 
> I wonder if expanding ones range of consciousness or expanding ones
> quality of consciousness might be a better way to describe it? Illusion
> and union to me is very imprecise, but I don't know if anyone ever
> managed to capture what happens in the brain at the moment of
> enlightenment. I'm fairly sure that psilocybin trips have been captured,
> but are those smaller intensity examples on the same scale as the
> ultimate union, or is the ultimate union something different? I have no
> idea, but I think it is very interesting to think about.
> 
> >       > states of awareness / consciousness. Those things that are "instrumentally meaningful" are valuable only in so far as
> >       their potential
> >       > to affect states of consciousness.
> >
> >       Isn't "valuable only in so far as their potential to affect states of
> >       consciousness" a truism?
> > 
> > I think so. But it is a clarifying truism, and one that often goes not directly acknowledged.
> 
> Fair point!
> 
> >       By the fact that we are physical beings with
> >       conscisoussness, wouldn't that mean everything is meaningful?
> > 
> > I think there is some meaning (value) in every conscious experience (which may be regarded as negative or positive, on the whole).
> 
> You mean value in terms of realizing meaning? That all experiences
> detract or add to the final goal of realizing meaning?
> 
> >       I agree to the extent that realizing deep seated meaning and values, is
> >       a mental process, fed with impressions and experiences from the physical
> >       world, or perhaps, not even that. It could be argued that some actually
> >       starve the mind of impressions and experiences to find their deep seated
> >       meaning.
> > 
> > Yes, perhaps this is why some use meditation or sensory deprivation as a path to bring about such an experience of the kind you
> > allude to.
> 
> That would be my theory.
> 
> >       > If we accept this premise, then the question is somewhat simplified. What are the desirous states of consciousness that
> >       we seek?
> >
> >       Yes, and how (if at all?) can these states be induced in a human being
> >       in a reliable way, to enrich that persons life?
> > 
> > I can't speak to the reliability, but these are often mentioned:
> >  *  Stroke and Traumatic Brain Injury
> >  *  Transcranial Stimulation
> >  *  Meditation
> >  *  Sensory Deprivation
> >  *  Fasting
> >  *  Psychedelics / Entheogens
> >  *  Thought
> >  *  Koans
> >  *  Action
> 
> Good list! I would add spontaneous enlightement as well, although very
> rare. I also wonder if near-death experiences would add anything to
> this? But I guess that is to be found under stroke/traumatic brain
> injry.
> 
> In terms of meditation I would add the distinction:
> 
> * Cataphatic (imaging God, imagination or words) ? e.g., The Spiritual
>    Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Francis of
>    Assisi; and
> 
> * Apophatic (imageless, stillness, and wordlessness) ? inspired by the
>    writings of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, which forms the basis of
>    Eastern Orthodox mysticism and hesychasm, and became influential in
>    western Catholic mysticism from the 12th century AD onward, as in The
>    Cloud of Unknowing and Meister Eckhart.[69]
> 
> Urban T. Holmes III categorized mystical theology in terms of whether it
> focuses on illuminating the mind, which Holmes refers to as speculative
> practice, or the heart/emotions, which he calls affective practice.
> Combining the speculative/affective scale with the apophatic/cataphatic
> scale allows for a range of categories:[70]
> 
>      Rationalism = Cataphatic and speculative
>      Pietism = Cataphatic and affective
>      Encratism = Apophatic and speculative
>      Quietism = Apophatic and affective
> 
> When it comes to psychedelics, what I wonder about is how exact the
> mapping of compound to effect is?
> 
> I heard that some people get hooked on the mystical experience and come
> back to psychedelics again and again and that in turn makes me wonder
> about how healthy that behaviour is, vs a more "natural" way to achieve
> the experience.
> 
> >       I agree. For me, essential meaning is a deel personal question. I do
> >       however believe that the process of finding or reaching this state can
> >       be fed by philosophy and science. I think that exploring theories beyond
> >       our world could lead one to make the necessary connections in the brain,
> >       that inspires one to deeper meaning.
> >
> >       So yes, it is deeply subjective, yet I think that actions and thoughts
> >       can influence the process so it is not completely devoid of tangible
> >       starting points.
> > 
> > I do think certain thought patterns/ideas can help bring about the experience. For example, meditating deeply on the question of how
> > one came to exist. Or even watching a movie like "The Prestige" which is about what one experiences when duplicated. I think reading
> > Arnold Zuboff's arguments in "One self: the logic of experience" can be helpful as well, but all of these can only "bring the horse
> > to the water", so to speak. It is up to the person to do the drinking.
> 
> Agreed!
> 
> >       >       But for me, that is not Meaning with a capital m. All the previous levels in
> >       >       Maslows pyramid contribute to a good life, but at the top with have the
> >       >       mystical self-actualization, and I am somewhat attracted to the earth (or
> >       >       universe) shattering realizations of a union with the universe that the mystics
> >       >       talk about.
> >       >
> >       > Or as variously described as:
> >       > Moksha
> >       > Nirvana 
> >       > Enlightenment
> >
> >       Yes. But I'm not happy with the religious overtones,
> > 
> > While these terms are used in various religions, I don't find these particularly religious concepts, rather, they represent the
> > common mystic teaching, which is almost universal across societies and times (the perennial philosophy). Which I think is what you
> > allude to as the origin of religion, the fundamental experience itself.
> 
> True. Well, I guess it is mostly individual. To me, they bring
> connotations of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zen. But as you say, referring to
> the same underlying experience.
> 
> >       and I wonder if it
> >       is possible to achieve such a state outside of a religious tradition, or
> >       if the tradition is necessary for achievement of that state?
> > 
> > I think it's quite possible to experience it outside of a religious tradition.
> 
> Have you ever heard about it or read a book that discusses that theme?
> 
> I can't say I have read a book about this as a theme, but I have seen multiple independent people report their own experience of it, for example:
> 
> 
> "Enlightenment came to me suddenly and unexpectedly one afternoon in March when I was walking up to the school notice board to see whether my name was on the list for tomorrow?s football game. I was not on the list. And in a blinding flash of inner light I saw the answer to both my problems, the problem of war and the problem of injustice. The answer was amazingly simple. I called it Cosmic Unity. Cosmic Unity said: There is only one of us. We are all the same person. I am you and I am Winston Churchill and Hitler and Gandhi and everybody. There is no problem of injustice because your sufferings are also mine. There will be no problem of war as soon as you understand that in killing me you are only killing yourself."
> -- Freeman Dyson <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson> in ?Disturbing The Universe <https://books.google.com/books/about/Disturbing_the_Universe.html?id=toXgAAAAMAAJ>? (1979)
> 
>  
> 
> I would be very interested if such a spontaneous experience caused a
> non-religious person to become religious, or if it somehow detracted
> from the experience, or what fundamental changes in that persons life
> resulted from it.
> 
> Coming from a religious framework might give you some conceptual tools
> to analyze or deal with the experience. Not having that framework, I
> wonder if a person creates their own, or if the experience fades to a
> pleasant memory?
> 
> I vaguely remember watching a documentary about mycologist Paul Stamets
> where he talked about a mushroom induced experience, but I don't know if
> he had any religious upbringing or not.
> 
> This also seems quite common as reported by those who have had near death experiences, and the profound effect that has on individuals who experience it. There are several youtube channels dedicated to interviewing those who have had such experiences.
>  
> 
> >       I don't know if it is true or not, but wasn't the Buddha agnostic on the
> >       question of gods?
> > 
> > It varies a bit depending on which sect of Buddhism you emphasize, but there is, nonetheless, a general agreement that mind is what
> > is primarily behind everything. Here are some passages that show the spectrum of Buddhist thinking on the question:
> > 
> > "All the phenomena of existence have mind as their precursor, mind as their supreme leader, and of mind are they made."
> > -- Gautama Buddha in ?The Dhammapada? (c. 500 B.C.)
> 
> Ahh, perhaps time to whip out the old Dhammapada again? =) Too bad it is
> in a box in my attic in Sweden, but good old internet to the rescue!
> 
> > "I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my essence. [?] Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that
> > lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I
> > am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me. [?] All that manifests from my Body, my Voice, and my Mind
> > springs from my essence, is re-absorbed in it, and is nothing other than my essence."
> > -- Kulayar?ja Tantra 55.1 (c. 850 A.D.)
> > 
> > Both of these passages place mind at the base of reality. But Tibetan Buddhism describes this "pure and total consciousness" as the
> > "supreme source" from which everything emanates, and thus you might identify this almost like "God", perhaps more of the flavor of
> > Atman of Hinduism.
> > 
> > I think there is much we can learn from the study of old ideas, whatever their source. Rather than trying to rediscover everything
> > from scratch, people have recorded their thoughts and ideas going back thousands of years, covering many billions of lives.
> 
> Agreed! In some cases the ancients where quite right in their guesses
> although they did not have the framework. Then we rediscover it and also
> discover why and how it connect to everything else. I wonder how much
> there is left in these ancient traditions that will be confirmed by
> science?
> 
> >       Might it be possible to distill those concepts into a more neutral or
> >       descriptive one, and distill the various techniques of achieving it for
> >       people to try?
> > 
> > Probably. But I don't know whether that would be better or worse.
> 
> We'll probably only know when we actually do try. See point above about
> people getting addicted to union through psychedelics and keep going
> back.
> 
> >       Will that be in any way beneficial and enriching for people, or, would
> >       it risk people getting addicted to the experience to the detriment of
> >       "normal" society?
> > 
> > I think experiments that have looked at giving ordinary people mystical experiences, have generally reported it as a profound
> > positive impact on their life.
> 
> I vaguely remember results ranging from nothing, to nice to have, to
> profound positive impact. But I do not remember any reasoning about why
> some had profound experiences while other nothing at all. Mental or
> biological setup? Aptitute? Placebo? Luck?
> 
> >       > Which I would say, is understanding who you really are.
> >
> >       What do we mean when we ask who we are?
> > 
> > This gets back to our discussion on personal identity.
> > What experiences are ours. Why was "I" born as this person? Am "I" only this person? Am I the universe experiencing all lives, but
> > only in a position to know one at a time? etc.
> > Have you seen The Egg?
> 
> True! No, haven't seen. Do you have a link?
> 
> I included the link in my original e-mail. Perhaps your email client does not show links?
> In any case, here is the URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI>
>  
> 
> >       I don't know if I agree with the definition of absence of pain or not,
> >       but I do agree that it is a much better definition than "pleasure". Is
> >       contentment the absence of pain? Or is it more?
> > 
> > Dictionary.com gives "the state of being contented; satisfaction; ease of mind."
> > Ease of mind, I would say, is more or less the same as an "absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul."
> 
> Got it.
> 
> >       > Yes happiness or contentment are good. Epicurus defined it negatively, in terms of absence of pain and suffering, which
> >       I think is
> >       > close to the same thing as contentment.
> >
> >       Ah, you answered my question above. To me as a non-native english
> >       speaker, it feels as if there is a difference between contentment and
> >       absence of pain. I think perhaps the reason could be that I have a worse
> >       grasp of the nuances of the language, and perhaps, the culture I grew up
> >       in (swedish)?
> > 
> > Contentment I think often bears a connotation of "mild happiness".
> 
> That would match my own feeling when I here contentment. I personally
> also add a time dimension, where contentment is a longer lasting feeling
> than joy or happiness, which for me, personally, are more peak
> experiences.
> 
> >       Why would I be made happier if I had a way to create (and this is just a
> >       thought experiment) small, happy consciousnesses without being able to
> >       improve my own position?
> > 
> > It's not that you would be made happier by creating more experiences. Rather, it's that all conscious life regards having more
> > positive experiences as better than fewer conscious experiences.
> 
> Ah ok, I misunderstood. One more clarifying question, what do you mean
> when you say more positive experiences vs fewer conscious experiences?
> You are comparing positive vs conscious but positive is also conscious?
> 
> > For the same reason that I hope you would see the destruction of Earth as a negative: the continuance of consciousness life on earth
> > is regarded as a "good thing" because it allows for more conscious experiences to be created.
> 
> Maybe. A nr of theoretical thought experiments can be made up where the
> destruction of Earth might actually be a good thing. I also do lean more
> toward quality than quantity, because if more conscious experiences are
> created but do end up in suffering, then perhaps it wasn't so good after
> all? But in order to avoid the utilitarian trap, I prefer to focus on
> individual meaning instead of groups of additive carriers of meaning and
> positivity.
> 
> >       Sounds depressing to me that my life function
> >       would be to create life, instead of living the life I have.
> > 
> > That's not your life function, it's a universal value that more experiences are better than fewer ones (when the experiences
> > themselves are not negative ones). For example, I think anyone not in pain or suffering tends to prefer continued life (for example)
> 
> How would you say the it is a universal value? I can see how it would be
> an individual value, but a collective and universal one, I'm not so
> sure. Imagine that I live on planet A, by myself, and I have a good
> life. Regardless of is person B on planet B lives and has a good life or
> not, I'll never know, and I don't think the universe will care much
> either. I do agree that I'm having a good life, and that's great, and I
> do agree that person B is having a good life, and that is great too. But
> person B:s life, on planet B, doesn't really affect the meaning of my
> life lived in planet A.
> 
> I think I'm misunderstanding you here.
> 
> When I say it is a universal value, I mean it is a personal value for each individual conscious being for themselves (rather than something necessarily felt for all others in the universe). So it is universal only in the sense that all conscious life forms in the universe share that value.
> 
>  
> 
> >       Maybe we should focus on quality and not quantity? Maybe there is no
> >       inherent benefit in just quantity?
> > 
> > I think some balance is needed. Otherwise we are led to extremes like a single mind having a permanent heroin high, or something like
> > that. Likewise the value for variety, rather than just quantity or quality.
> 
> Yes, that is true. Many are the theoretical thought examples which
> crush most, if not all, ethical theories. ;)
> 
> I came across this recently, which I found interesting. At least, it seems like an entirely novel basis for morality/ethics: https://philarchive.org/archive/ARNMAW <https://philarchive.org/archive/ARNMAW>
> 
> Jason
>  
> 
> Best regards, 
> Daniel
> 
> 
> >       > The trajectory of life, everywhere and anywhere in the universe will, I think, follow this trajectory. We are, as
> >       conscious beings,
> >       > on a course to fill the universe with consciousness for the purposes of realizing as many states of consciousness as
> >       possible, to
> >       > eliminate suffering and pain, and promote the creation of positive experiences for all conscience beings.
> >       > It may make little difference whether it is us or our machine descendents that are in control, for I think all
> >       conscious beings
> >       > possess these goals, by virtue of the fact that they are conscious, and will deduce logically that all utility comes
> >       felt states of
> >       > consciousness (just as humans have been deducing for centuries).
> >
> >       Best regards,
> >       Daniel
> > 
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Jason
> > 
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Oct 20 19:01:39 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 12:01:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5F3HGjUUO+Ajs5nR+9GRfETJfpOK2GaKfTeRgDATXH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
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 <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5F3HGjUUO+Ajs5nR+9GRfETJfpOK2GaKfTeRgDATXH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010401da0387$dc25bd20$94713760$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 9:42?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf 
> Of BillK via extropy-chat ... 
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> >... China is the most likely to try to buy a hunk of Africa and enforce a border with military force.

>...The future is impossible to predict, but I don't think you can defend PV...

Ja, Keith the South Africans used the energy in coal to run the process of conversion to liquid fuel.  As I understand it, that is highly inefficient in that it produced a loooootta lotta CO2 and requires a relatively higher grade of coal to make it go right.

If some external power source is available such as nuclear or possibly enormous arrays of PVs, the process is practical from a CO2 production point of view.

>...To the best of my knowledge, Fischer Tropsch does not use a lot of water...

It doesn't need a lot of fresh water, but it needs a lot of cooling water from what I have heard.  If you have the option of using evaporative cooling that is great, but it requires fresh water.  If we have the option of dumping the waste heat out at sea, it requires being reasonably close to the coast.  West Africa offers a lot of direct overhead sunlight, access to the sea for water and transportation both ways, even a fresh water source if it is extracted from seawater (which is an energy hog but it might be the best way to go out in the desert.)  

>...The Gobi is far to the north making the PV output highly seasonal...

Ja, agree, far less energy available up that high for PV.  China has an authoritarian government so they have the option to clear an area of proles by just a simple: OK all you little commies, hit the road.  Dear Leader needs your farms, to make fuel for your tractors that you can no longer use because Dear Leader took your farms.  

China stretches far enough down there that maybe PVs are practical, maybe.  It would have some advantages over biting off a hunk of Africa, such as... they already own it.

>...the Saudis have signed a deal for 300 GW of solar by 2030...

Seems like a great place to plant lots of PVs.  Let's see if they can make it pay.


>... the Saudis *could* switch over and sell this kind of synthetic oil for at least another generation...

I don't see why not.  They have lots of sunshine down there, plenty of open land, access to the sea and the Med, which means they could deliver synfuels to the rich infidels in Europe, make buttloads of money.

>...Sorry for all the math but I can't say if something is a good idea or not without working the numbers.  I realize I am an extreme outlier in this respect... Keith

{8^D

Me too Keith.  As I recall the numbers would work if you had ways to get coal in there, ways to get the synfuels out and plenty of space for PVs or a nuke plant, plus immunity from Europe's notions on how immoral it is to keep burning carbon.  Saudi Arabia has all that and knows that running farm equipment on batteries will not happen anytime soon, it knows that passenger aircraft cannot run on batteries, that rockets don't run on batteries, that plenty of necessary modern processes depend on the energy densities available in liquid fuels.  The demand for that stuff isn't going away until we go away (we meaning civilized humanity.) 

spike




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 20 23:24:01 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:24:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <010401da0387$dc25bd20$94713760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5F3HGjUUO+Ajs5nR+9GRfETJfpOK2GaKfTeRgDATXH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <010401da0387$dc25bd20$94713760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5PG5Q5_cyNfL2bXuOger3gHEZeNJhG57eQ70u4x2H-Qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:01?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 9:42?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> > Of BillK via extropy-chat ...
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > >... China is the most likely to try to buy a hunk of Africa and enforce a border with military force.
>
> >...The future is impossible to predict, but I don't think you can defend PV...
>
> Ja, Keith the South Africans used the energy in coal to run the process of conversion to liquid fuel.

Nobody would sell them oil, they had no choice.

> As I understand it, that is highly inefficient in that it produced a loooootta lotta CO2 and requires a relatively higher grade of coal to make it go right.

At the time nobody cared about CO2.  I used to talk through the net to
the engineer who accompanied a shipload of coal from North Dakoda to
South Africa to see if it would work in those gasifiers.  It did and
the US built a 16,000 tons per day plant to make synthetic natural
gas.  That plant has been operational a long time now.
>
> If some external power source is available such as nuclear or possibly enormous arrays of PVs, the process is practical from a CO2 production point of view.
>
> >...To the best of my knowledge, Fischer Tropsch does not use a lot of water...
>
> It doesn't need a lot of fresh water, but it needs a lot of cooling water from what I have heard.

900 MW for the plant in Qatar.  The 1400 MW units at the Palo Verde
Nuclear Generating Station dump about  2800 MW.  (The relatively low
temperature limits the Carnot efficiency to around 33%.)  The Qatar
plant has access to sea water.  Palo Verde is out in the middle of the
desert.  They evaporate treated sewage.

> If you have the option of using evaporative cooling that is great, but it requires fresh water.  If we have the option of dumping the waste heat out at sea, it requires being reasonably close to the coast.  West Africa offers a lot of direct overhead sunlight, access to the sea for water and transportation both ways, even a fresh water source if it is extracted from seawater (which is an energy hog but it might be the best way to go out in the desert.)

No harbors, no infrastructure.  Unless you are right on the coast,
cooling water is a pain.  Possible, but I think long after the
Mideast.

> >...The Gobi is far to the north making the PV output highly seasonal...
>
> Ja, agree, far less energy available up that high for PV.  China has an authoritarian government so they have the option to clear an area of proles by just a simple: OK all you little commies, hit the road.  Dear Leader needs your farms, to make fuel for your tractors that you can no longer use because Dear Leader took your farms.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think the Gobi has farms or people.
>
> China stretches far enough down there that maybe PVs are practical, maybe.  It would have some advantages over biting off a hunk of Africa, such as... they already own it.
>
> >...the Saudis have signed a deal for 300 GW of solar by 2030...
>
> Seems like a great place to plant lots of PVs.  Let's see if they can make it pay.
>
>
> >... the Saudis *could* switch over and sell this kind of synthetic oil for at least another generation...
>
> I don't see why not.  They have lots of sunshine down there, plenty of open land, access to the sea and the Med, which means they could deliver synfuels to the rich infidels in Europe, make buttloads of money.

Less than pumping oil at 3-4 dollars a bbl, but when they run out . .
 . .
> >...Sorry for all the math but I can't say if something is a good idea or not without working the numbers.  I realize I am an extreme outlier in this respect... Keith
>
> {8^D
>
> Me too Keith.  As I recall the numbers would work if you had ways to get coal in there, ways to get the synfuels out and plenty of space for PVs or a nuke plant, plus immunity from Europe's notions on how immoral it is to keep burning carbon.  Saudi Arabia has all that and knows that running farm equipment on batteries will not happen anytime soon, it knows that passenger aircraft cannot run on batteries, that rockets don't run on batteries, that plenty of necessary modern processes depend on the energy densities available in liquid fuels.  The demand for that stuff isn't going away until we go away (we meaning civilized humanity.)

There might be an even less expensive way to convert coal to diesel
using solar.  Jim Bowery set off this line of thinking using power
towers.

Keith

> spike
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 21 11:28:11 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 12:28:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
Message-ID: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>

This cat may be a possible Mensa member!  :)

<https://twitter.com/catshouldnt/status/1715066397376876669>

(45 seconds video}.

BillK
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From gadersd at gmail.com  Sat Oct 21 12:48:50 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 08:48:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50AFC23E-7C43-445E-8DFD-00639F2D0226@gmail.com>

And some people think only dogs are smart enough to be trained. Cats can learn just about anything dogs can learn if they are given enough motivation.

> On Oct 21, 2023, at 7:28 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> This cat may be a possible Mensa member!  :)
> 
> <https://twitter.com/catshouldnt/status/1715066397376876669 <https://twitter.com/catshouldnt/status/1715066397376876669>>
> 
> (45 seconds video}.
> 
> BillK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct 21 14:48:49 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 07:48:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008801da042d$b4058130$1c108390$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door

 

This cat may be a possible Mensa member!  :)

<https://twitter.com/catshouldnt/status/1715066397376876669>

 

(45 seconds video}.

 

BillK

 

 

 

BillK, we know that humans display a wide span of mental abilities, even though the size and shape of the brain is similar to all.  We don?t know why the heck that is; experts in the field such as Billw can offer only limited insights.  But think of the problem solving span of the smartest people you know vs the not.

 

If we are around beasts enough, and around enough of them, we see that there are brilliant ones there as well.  The cat clearly demonstrated a reasoning process, a try, fail, reason, try something else, the kind of stuff that brilliant successful people do.

 

Thx for the video.  That made my day.

 

Irrelevant aside: in that video did someone leave a dildo on that table in the foreground?  {8^D

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct 21 14:57:25 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 07:57:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
In-Reply-To: <50AFC23E-7C43-445E-8DFD-00639F2D0226@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50AFC23E-7C43-445E-8DFD-00639F2D0226@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009d01da042e$e80fd790$b82f86b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

.> On Behalf Of Gadersd via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] How to open a blocked door

 

>.And some people think only dogs are smart enough to be trained. Cats can
learn just about anything dogs can learn if they are given enough
motivation.

 

 

 

Gadersd, you hit it right on.  Cats can be trained, but the critical
difference is that dogs will do what humans want, in order to please the
human, which is their reward.  Dogs love humans.  In order to train a cat,
he must be motivated by a reward the cat wants.  Cats tolerate humans but
don't really give a damn about whether we are pleased.  They tolerate us
because we feed them.  

 

If you get a chance, go watch a good dog handler training police dogs.
Watch for a while, notice that the dogs don't get treats for doing their
routine correctly, they get a single word from the trainer which they
understand means "good job."  Watch how the dog carries himself after
getting that good job vs one who screwed up.  At the end of the training
session, watch the trained dogs' attitude toward the local pets: the police
dogs just seem to carry themselves as if to say to the pets "You lowlife
animal, perfectly useless you are.  But I have an actual JOB because I am
smart enough to be trained by an actual HUMAN as opposed to lowlife YOU who
can only walk on the end of a rope."

 

It is most educational to watch dogs being trained for a job.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct 21 15:56:08 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 08:56:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
In-Reply-To: <008801da042d$b4058130$1c108390$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801da042d$b4058130$1c108390$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRjxgGqkFUExr3vF0YH=n-KdZ2zncEgfjY4WencR1ET2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 7:50?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Irrelevant aside: in that video did someone leave a dildo on that table in
> the foreground?  {8^D
>

Could be, though there are many other objects that could be too.  It's just
the basic shape.  (Of course, it could also be an innocent object that
could be used in that fashion - possibly ruining it for other use if it's
electronics.)
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 21 20:48:41 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:48:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Agriculture is going electric
Message-ID: <CAL_armjKE=zr5AAURsXUMYBg7ijWd7v8OB5unNbbSBObSwGutQ@mail.gmail.com>

By agreeing to the Paris Agreement, western nations intend to move
away from oil over the next 15 to 25 years.

I asked an AI -
Is there a trend towards electrification in agriculture?
and got a long essay in reply -See below:

------------------------------------
Yes, there is a clear trend towards electrification in agriculture.
The agricultural industry is increasingly recognizing the benefits of
transitioning from traditional fossil fuel-powered machinery to
electric-powered equipment. This shift is driven by several factors,
including the need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, improve energy
efficiency, and enhance overall sustainability in farming practices.

Electrification in agriculture offers numerous advantages. One of the
key benefits is the significant reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.
Traditional agricultural machinery, such as tractors and harvesters,
typically run on diesel or gasoline, which contribute to air pollution
and climate change. By switching to electric-powered equipment,
farmers can greatly reduce their carbon footprint and contribute to a
cleaner environment.

Moreover, electric agricultural machinery tends to be more
energy-efficient compared to their fossil fuel counterparts. Electric
motors have higher efficiency rates and convert a larger portion of
the energy they consume into useful work. This increased efficiency
translates into lower operating costs for farmers, as they require
less energy to perform the same tasks.

Another advantage of electrification in agriculture is the potential
for improved precision and automation. Electric-powered machinery can
be integrated with advanced technologies such as GPS systems and
sensors, enabling precise control over operations like planting,
fertilizing, and harvesting. This level of precision helps optimize
resource usage, minimize waste, and increase overall productivity on
farms.

Furthermore, the transition to electric-powered equipment aligns with
the broader sustainability goals of the agricultural industry. Many
farmers are increasingly adopting sustainable farming practices that
prioritize environmental stewardship and long-term viability.
Electrification plays a crucial role in achieving these goals by
reducing reliance on finite fossil fuel resources and minimizing
environmental impact.

Several initiatives and developments support the trend towards
electrification in agriculture. Governments around the world are
implementing policies and providing incentives to encourage farmers to
adopt electric-powered machinery. These measures include subsidies for
purchasing electric vehicles or charging infrastructure, tax credits
for renewable energy installations on farms, and grants for research
and development in electric agricultural technology.

Additionally, manufacturers are investing in the development of
electric agricultural machinery to meet the growing demand. Companies
are designing and producing electric tractors, combines, sprayers, and
other equipment specifically tailored for agricultural applications.
These machines are equipped with advanced battery technology,
efficient electric motors, and smart features to enhance productivity
and ease of use.

Farmers themselves are also driving the trend towards electrification
by recognizing the long-term benefits it offers. Many are actively
seeking out electric-powered alternatives to replace their aging
fossil fuel-powered machinery. They understand that electrification
not only reduces emissions but also provides cost savings, improved
operational efficiency, and access to advanced technologies that can
optimize their farming practices.

In conclusion, there is a clear trend towards electrification in
agriculture due to its numerous advantages such as reduced greenhouse
gas emissions, improved energy efficiency, enhanced precision and
automation, and alignment with sustainability goals. Governments,
manufacturers, and farmers themselves are all contributing to this
trend through policies, investments, and active adoption of
electric-powered machinery.

Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications:
1. United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) - www.fao.org
2. International Energy Agency (IEA) - www.iea.org
3. World Wildlife Fund (WWF) - www.worldwildlife.org
--------------------------

BillK

From gadersd at gmail.com  Sun Oct 22 15:42:04 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 11:42:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Faithless by Default
Message-ID: <B0102CC7-BA09-4569-B401-48051D58F87C@gmail.com>

This is one of my favorite songs of all time. I first encountered it years ago while reading existential Japanese fiction and it fit the mood perfectly. The song is more relevant now than ever before. When I truly feel that the singularity has arrived I will go out at night blaring this song and send shivers down my neighbors? spines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLrPChte8pE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLrPChte8pE>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Oct 22 21:33:50 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 14:33:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
Message-ID: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>

 

A few months ago, I posted some wishful thinking on charging a Tesla on the
fly with a towed battery.  The Tesla hipsters convinced me that Elon
intentionally defeated such an absurd notion, disallowing any charging in
flight, damn.

 

Seeing a Tesla towing a boat on a road trip recently caused me to revisit
the idea with a fun twist.  What if. we rigged up a trailer with its own
battery or even a big Diesel generator with its own motors on its axles?
Then a prole hitches up her Tesla, gets it out on the freeway, fires up the
Diesel which drives the trailer wheels aaaannnndd. gently pushes the
Muskmobile along the freeway, extending battery life?

 

Wait, before you point out to me what I already know. that such a goofy
notion would result in oscillating instability, because it would become the
equivalent of a negative tongue weight on the hitch. ja, I realize that.
But, we are not busted, necessarily, not yet.  If we were to get tricky with
sensors on our hitch, and we had plenty of power on the trailer axles, and
we dial in plenty of moment of inertia in the trailer about the vertical
axis, and we are hot with our digital controls. if all that, I bet we could
make an active control system that would keep that coupled pair going
headlight-end first down the freeway, and could even maybe go a longer
distance than an uncoupled Muskmobile.

 

Anyone here think that might work?  Adrian?  Stuart?  Keith?  Other
tech-hipsters among us?

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Oct 22 23:21:16 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 16:21:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>

While you certainly could build such a rig, it strikes me as just silly.

Keith

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 2:35?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> A few months ago, I posted some wishful thinking on charging a Tesla on the fly with a towed battery.  The Tesla hipsters convinced me that Elon intentionally defeated such an absurd notion, disallowing any charging in flight, damn.
>
>
>
> Seeing a Tesla towing a boat on a road trip recently caused me to revisit the idea with a fun twist.  What if? we rigged up a trailer with its own battery or even a big Diesel generator with its own motors on its axles?  Then a prole hitches up her Tesla, gets it out on the freeway, fires up the Diesel which drives the trailer wheels aaaannnndd? gently pushes the Muskmobile along the freeway, extending battery life?
>
>
>
> Wait, before you point out to me what I already know? that such a goofy notion would result in oscillating instability, because it would become the equivalent of a negative tongue weight on the hitch? ja, I realize that.  But, we are not busted, necessarily, not yet.  If we were to get tricky with sensors on our hitch, and we had plenty of power on the trailer axles, and we dial in plenty of moment of inertia in the trailer about the vertical axis, and we are hot with our digital controls? if all that, I bet we could make an active control system that would keep that coupled pair going headlight-end first down the freeway, and could even maybe go a longer distance than an uncoupled Muskmobile.
>
>
>
> Anyone here think that might work?  Adrian?  Stuart?  Keith?  Other tech-hipsters among us?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 00:12:37 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 17:12:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>





>>... What if? we rigged up a trailer with its own battery or even a big Diesel generator with its own motors on its axles?  Then a prole hitches up her Tesla, gets it out on the freeway, fires up the Diesel which drives the trailer wheels aaaannnndd? gently pushes the Muskmobile along the freeway, extending battery life?  spike


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] towed evs again

>...While you certainly could build such a rig, it strikes me as just silly.

>...Keith


Keith this is a surprising response from one who once lived in Palo Alto.

Many homes there were built BC (before cars) meaning they have no garage, or even if they had one at one time, they have long since been converted to living space for rental to young scholars seeking wisdom from the sages at Stanford up the street from your former abode.  Housing being a premium there, a converted garage can bring 3k a month (WOWsers!)

So imagine one has a Tesla and loves to go camping in the Sierras, where one's favorite fishing lake is 200 miles away.  You have the option of buying a pickup truck, but one considers such a rude conveyance just too embarrassing to own, and not really practical anyway for it would hog your narrow driveway and interfere with your tenant's Tesla, which also must reside in your narrow driveway next to yours.

OK then.  Kieth you can likely imagine plenty of Tesla drivers in your own former neighborhood, and I can certainly imagine loving to go camping in the Sierras.  Imagine yourself with plenty of money (partly because you rent your garage to financially-secure scholars.)  There are few charging stations out that way, and even if there are, you don't want to wait around charging when you would rather be fishing and hiking.  

That's all the elements: limited space, loves to camp, embarrassed to drive a rude pickup, plenty of money (I never suggested such a rig would be cheap.)

Side note: when the prole arrives at her camping space, that same control system which de-oscillates her camper could autonomously park her temporary home when she arrives, and allow her all the comforts of home as a bonus, such as air conditioning.  HVAC requires a really sincere rattly generator heavier than most people want to carry.  So the serious glamper (with plenty of money) might be willing to hand over some of that filthy lucre to whoever can build a Tesla-pusher capable of assisting a Tesla out to the Sierras and back without stopping for a charge.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 01:42:59 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:42:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>


>>... What if? we rigged up a trailer with its own battery or even a big Diesel generator with its own motors on its axles?  Then a prole hitches up her Tesla, gets it out on the freeway, fires up the Diesel which drives the trailer wheels aaaannnndd? gently pushes the Muskmobile along the freeway, extending battery life?  spike

...

>...While you certainly could build such a rig, it strikes me as just silly.

>...Keith

...

Keith, you declared the notion silly with no equations, no calculations, a condemnation based solely on the observation that my other ideas to date have all been silly.  Unacceptable!  Consider the guy who invented the pet rock.  He probably had a bunch of previous silly ideas before coming up with that particular... em... OK bad example.  Read on please.

As I ponder the silly notion, it grows several percent less silly to me.  Many proles want to go on the road half the year after they retire comfortably.  A lot of them have plenty of resources and a grim determination to spend every shekel rather than leave it to their shiftless offspring.  So... we understand the enormous Diesel bus motorhomes with a pickup truck or jeep in tow, for a reason: a prole needs transportation once she arrives at the campground where she will be staying for a few days or weeks, or for the summer.

The pusher camper makes a lot of sense compared to that, for the more affluent Gaian crowd.  The Diesel rig belches choking clouds of black sooty exhaust, and the jeep back there makes it even worse.  The bus camper must be high off the ground because those heavy rigs have truck tires which means the floor hasta be way up to clear the substantial rear axle.

But a trailer doesn't need to be up there, thanks to smaller tires and no differential so the wind resistance is lower.  If it is hauling its own weight plus gently pushing the Tesla, the towed jeep is unnecessary.  Then if you are an affluent Gaian with such a rig, you can pretend to be green.  You aren't really, but you are not required to admit that to yourself. 

Keith, what's so silly about that please?

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 02:33:44 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 19:33:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] stormy year
Message-ID: <007c01da0559$5845d250$08d176f0$@rainier66.com>

 

For those of you who follow this sorta thing, you may have observed that
this has been a far quieter Atlantic storm year than most.  But on the
contrary, 2023 has been a far stormier year in the Atlantic.  But a tropical
west to east wind current pushed the hurricanes to the north, where they
blew themselves out in the middle of the Atlantic where no one cares, even
if it is a monster storm such as Lee, which raged for 11 days but never came
close enough to land to wreck anything of importance or sell headlines.

 

This all has me thinking that if we build stuff near the coast which can
withstand hurricanes, we wouldn't worry much about them.

 

spike

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From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 07:08:51 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 01:08:51 -0600
Subject: [ExI] stormy year
In-Reply-To: <007c01da0559$5845d250$08d176f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <007c01da0559$5845d250$08d176f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCwz8Gr1D+idBL3zg9--F2Y9_y5+kYW5ySrPRKYUGk=fw@mail.gmail.com>

I've often thought that insurance should pay to replace your hurricane
destroyed house at a new safer location, paid for by the insurance
company, but if rebuilt at the same location, insurance would no
longer be offered beyond the single rebuild. Then donate the old
property to a land trust that won't build there again. This would
slowly move real estate out of the problem areas.

Is there a big downside to this plan? Other than the obvious that
people want to keep living in the same stupid places.

-Kelly

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 8:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> For those of you who follow this sorta thing, you may have observed that this has been a far quieter Atlantic storm year than most.  But on the contrary, 2023 has been a far stormier year in the Atlantic.  But a tropical west to east wind current pushed the hurricanes to the north, where they blew themselves out in the middle of the Atlantic where no one cares, even if it is a monster storm such as Lee, which raged for 11 days but never came close enough to land to wreck anything of importance or sell headlines.
>
>
>
> This all has me thinking that if we build stuff near the coast which can withstand hurricanes, we wouldn?t worry much about them.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 12:19:33 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:19:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 02:45, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
<snip>
> But a trailer doesn't need to be up there, thanks to smaller tires and no differential so the wind resistance is lower.  If it is hauling its own weight plus gently pushing the Tesla, the towed jeep is unnecessary.  Then if you are an affluent Gaian with such a rig, you can pretend to be green.  You aren't really, but you are not required to admit that to yourself.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


This new trailer may help.  :)
It doesn't solve your driveway crowding or 'push' the electric tow car.
But it does lighten the towing load to extend the range and gives you
a week's luxury camping power, with solar panels.

<https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/pebble-flow-ev-friendly-luxury-trailer-set-up-camp-1235374555/>
Quote:
The tech-packed vehicle comes with an optional dual-motor power train
and, if that wasn?t enough, can even set up camp for you.
---------------------

BillK


From gadersd at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 13:16:49 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 09:16:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
Message-ID: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>

As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow. 

One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.

Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?

Any ideas?

From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 14:41:15 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 08:41:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTR58ZELMrxkSF5ATbkzGwhWB-2oJry3uci-QYRLnxVvw@mail.gmail.com>

Then the (vanishingly unlikely) best case scenario is more of the same only
with some of the politicians being robots, the average case scenario is
we're all dead, and the worst case scenario is that the few survivors have
no mouths but must scream.

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023, 7:18 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find
> themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have
> heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
>
> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to
> verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain
> capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the
> socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the
> benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to
> today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that
> it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be
> maintained.
>
> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body
> for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond
> of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is
> not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up
> control?
>
> Any ideas?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 15:04:47 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:04:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgM6PVnNJ+dRoeoTCr2D-usnA1DWgLyrq=4CFEBi0w=UQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 14:19, Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
>
> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
>
> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
>
> Any ideas?
> _______________________________________________


The idea that a powerful AGI could be the centralized governing body
for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them is full
of problems.
Would this give too much power to AGI?
How to ensure fairness of distribution?
Are all nations involved?
Could the distribution be corrupted?
(But then look at the present state we are in).

It depends on resolving the AGI alignment problem and humanity has so
many different value systems that it becomes impossible to apply one
solution to all humanity. Humanity would have to be aligned first.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 15:11:54 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 08:11:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] stormy year
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCwz8Gr1D+idBL3zg9--F2Y9_y5+kYW5ySrPRKYUGk=fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007c01da0559$5845d250$08d176f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnCwz8Gr1D+idBL3zg9--F2Y9_y5+kYW5ySrPRKYUGk=fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006801da05c3$4323eb40$c96bc1c0$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Cc: Kelly Anderson <postmowoods at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] stormy year

>...I've often thought that insurance should pay to replace your hurricane destroyed house at a new safer location, paid for by the insurance company, but if rebuilt at the same location, insurance would no longer be offered beyond the single rebuild...

Kelly you can buy insurance with any contractual agreement you want.

>...Is there a big downside to this plan? Other than the obvious that people want to keep living in the same stupid places.

-Kelly

Ja to all, but keep in mind that the individual property has a very low risk of ever seeing storm damage.  We heard of a Florida hurricane where a storm surge flooded a bunch of houses, but the risk of that happening to a particular coastal property is very low, perhaps 1%.  So... OK insure against that risk, be done with it.

Alternative: the house where I misspent my childhood in Florida was at elevation 9 ft above sea level.  Knowing the risk of storm surge, the builders figured out a way to build the home to where there was little damage to the home if the water came up to knee level.  They were made of cinder block and the floors were polished concrete (terrazzo) and the utilities were up at about waist height (which looks a little strange but is convenient in a way.)  So if a storm surge came, the furniture would be destroyed of course, but the house itself was good to go after the residents swept out the debris from the receding flood waters.  We were only flooded there once in 1964.  Our house was dry but the neighbor's house in back had about ankle deep waters.  No worries, clean it out, next day it was fine.

spike



From gadersd at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 16:11:37 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:11:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkTR58ZELMrxkSF5ATbkzGwhWB-2oJry3uci-QYRLnxVvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTR58ZELMrxkSF5ATbkzGwhWB-2oJry3uci-QYRLnxVvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F9C019B3-360D-4DAC-A7B4-3C4B8EE6A220@gmail.com>

> the average case scenario is we're all dead, and the worst case scenario is that the few survivors have no mouths but must scream.

I?m of the mind that humanity in its current form is ultimately doomed. I just hope that we can maintain control long enough to transfer ourselves into more resilient forms or bodies (if you believe such a ?soul" transfer is possible). A rogue or obedient AI to a suicidal psychopath is surely going to design a super virus in the not very distant future. As long as we remain in biological bodies I think we are too vulnerable to last long.

> On Oct 23, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Then the (vanishingly unlikely) best case scenario is more of the same only with some of the politicians being robots, the average case scenario is we're all dead, and the worst case scenario is that the few survivors have no mouths but must scream.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023, 7:18 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow. 
> 
> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
> 
> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
> 
> Any ideas?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 16:14:15 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 09:14:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 23 October, 2023 5:20 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] towed evs again

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 02:45, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
<snip>
> But a trailer doesn't need to be up there, thanks to smaller tires and no differential so the wind resistance is lower.  If it is hauling its own weight plus gently pushing the Tesla, the towed jeep is unnecessary.  Then if you are an affluent Gaian with such a rig, you can pretend to be green.  You aren't really, but you are not required to admit that to yourself.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


This new trailer may help.  :)
It doesn't solve your driveway crowding or 'push' the electric tow car.
But it does lighten the towing load to extend the range and gives you a week's luxury camping power, with solar panels.

<https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/pebble-flow-ev-friendly-luxury-trailer-set-up-camp-1235374555/>
Quote:
The tech-packed vehicle comes with an optional dual-motor power train and, if that wasn?t enough, can even set up camp for you.
---------------------

BillK

_______________________________________________


Thx BillK.  Most people don't want the inherent limitations that go with a single axle camper.

I went thru some design iterations last night.  An abbreviated version of what happened in that exercise: the goal is to avoid forcing the Gaian to own a pickup truck, for she is far too embarrassed to be seen in it, analogous to the Baptist deacon who occasionally visits the stripper bar, so she must wear a covid mask, dark aviator shades and a 49ers cap turned backwards, hoping her Gaian friends will not recognize her in that rude old dinosaur burning truck.

To go camping dinosaur-free, the assumption is that the camper is to pull its own weight, with the desired outcome that it has a little thrust left over to gently push the Tesla while out on the freeway, making it plausible to drive from Palo Alto to the Sierras and back without an external charge.  The requisite charge very quickly rules out any single-axle configuration, and is quite the challenge even for a heavy duty double axle, even assuming D rated tires.

As my intuition suggested, if the trailer axles are driven with the CG of the camper in the usual place, you have oscillating instability.  The root locus plot, even with just single-digit estimates on weights and moments of inertia, shows the poles in the right half plane.  Oy.  From just estimates, it wasn't at all clear that there is enough damping available from even a big pickup truck aft tires, never mind a little Tesla.

So... how to get some oscillation damping, perhaps with active counterbalance?  (Note: we never suggested this would be cheap, only cool.)  Long story short: it is probably possible to do the task with active vibration counteraction, but it is scary.  If the thing stops working, or some mechanical actuator gets misbehaving, the likely outcome is a crash, as the rocking oscillation about the vertical axis of the camper makes the system unstable and uncontrollable.

So... the most attractive engineering solution is to separate the axles on the camper, so that the camper tires dial in some oscillation stabilization.  But... that makes the camper too hard to turn.  This is solved by making one of the axles (probably the forward one) fitted with steerable wheels, such as on the forward axle of a Tesla.  (Note as above: we never suggested this scheme would be cheap, only cool.)  

Once you have a steerable axle, it makes engineering sense to separate the axles (giving us weight savings as a bonus.)  Once you separate the axles, that oscillating instability problem just goes right away as the axles get separated farther, until the thing looks a little like a UPS delivery truck except with no front windows.

Having the axles at either end rather than close together allows the batteries to be located fore and aft, which dials in moment of inertia about the vertical axis, which helps stability even more.  From what I can tell, if all that, then we don't even need active controls anymore, no high-performance oscillation cancellation, just dump the instability into the camper tires, where it really belongs.  That also solves the problem of weight on the back of the Tesla, which really isn't designed to haul loads.  The active suspension goes away: regular cheap passive shock absorbers, like the ones the other proles have on their humble conveyances, will do.

With the axles located fore and aft, as in a delivery truck, it looks to me like we have a configuration which can be guided by a Tesla (rather than "towed" in the conventional sense) and maaaaybe can be controlled well enough to gently push the Muskmobile to the Sierras and back on a single charge.  I wouldn't rule out the simpler speed-matching, where there is very little longitudinal force on the hitch.  So that way the Tesla is guiding the camper rather than towing it, and the charge runs down at the normal rate.  Then perhaps the camper can charge the Tesla up at the lake.  This of course requires a looootta lotta of batteries, but as I have already said at least twice, this scheme is not cheap, only cool.

spike



From gadersd at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 16:17:16 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:17:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgM6PVnNJ+dRoeoTCr2D-usnA1DWgLyrq=4CFEBi0w=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgM6PVnNJ+dRoeoTCr2D-usnA1DWgLyrq=4CFEBi0w=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <93093F9B-65B1-44FD-8A3A-4BE00405EA2D@gmail.com>

> Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> 
> BillK

That?s one possibility I fear. I believe it has been tried before and the success rate doesn?t seem very good, although with enough bloodshed I?m sure it's possible at least for a time. The future may be bright, blindingly burning bright.

> On Oct 23, 2023, at 11:04 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 14:19, Gadersd via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
>> 
>> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
>> 
>> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
>> 
>> Any ideas?
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> The idea that a powerful AGI could be the centralized governing body
> for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them is full
> of problems.
> Would this give too much power to AGI?
> How to ensure fairness of distribution?
> Are all nations involved?
> Could the distribution be corrupted?
> (But then look at the present state we are in).
> 
> It depends on resolving the AGI alignment problem and humanity has so
> many different value systems that it becomes impossible to apply one
> solution to all humanity. Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> 
> BillK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 17:01:31 2023
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:01:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023, 12:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> {Lotsa words}


Remove the requirement to push the car, let the camper follow under its own
power and the range of the car is back to the normal range.  If "self
drive" can't be trusted to follow the leader, we must admit that self drive
has failed completely.

Now the exercise becomes how to make a camper out of a powerwall with
enough solar collecting skin that it pays for itself.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 17:09:50 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:09:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjk3kpOzE-7ATzLKWzjPGt95TM5o5vXaOVs0p+MKdRCuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 17:14, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Thx BillK.  Most people don't want the inherent limitations that go with a single axle camper.
>
> spike
--------------------------------------

Ahhh!   You didn't mention you wanted a double-axle trailer.
You want the Lightship trailer.
<https://lightshiprv.com/>

BillK

From dsunley at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 17:24:05 2023
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:24:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <93093F9B-65B1-44FD-8A3A-4BE00405EA2D@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgM6PVnNJ+dRoeoTCr2D-usnA1DWgLyrq=4CFEBi0w=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <93093F9B-65B1-44FD-8A3A-4BE00405EA2D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQJwSu+fNJBM3fAVHf-0_xTVOho_F_8pb9TiYg2N0yndA@mail.gmail.com>

Power doesn't flow from the control of capital.
Power flows from the barrel of a gun.
"Economic hegemony" is a game human billionaires play, that is only viable
because they exerted enough influence over national governments to
effectively outlaw total war.

One AI controlled virology/nanotechnology lab, in a single cargo container
sitting a few hundred feet beneath some random chunk of wilderness, will
end the biological human race, if the AI so chooses, using on an
infinitesimal fraction of the world's capital. The ratio of global capital
controlled by humans vs AIs will not be relevant.

P.S. Uploading will not precede the development of unaligned AGI. If I
wasn't already pretty sure the human race was already under the complete,
bulletproof control of a superhuman AGI, I would be very concerned.

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:19?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> > Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> >
> > BillK
>
> That?s one possibility I fear. I believe it has been tried before and the
> success rate doesn?t seem very good, although with enough bloodshed I?m
> sure it's possible at least for a time. The future may be bright,
> blindingly burning bright.
>
> > On Oct 23, 2023, at 11:04 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 14:19, Gadersd via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find
> themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have
> heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
> >>
> >> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to
> verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain
> capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the
> socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the
> benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to
> today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that
> it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be
> maintained.
> >>
> >> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing
> body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not
> fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the
> AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give
> up control?
> >>
> >> Any ideas?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > The idea that a powerful AGI could be the centralized governing body
> > for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them is full
> > of problems.
> > Would this give too much power to AGI?
> > How to ensure fairness of distribution?
> > Are all nations involved?
> > Could the distribution be corrupted?
> > (But then look at the present state we are in).
> >
> > It depends on resolving the AGI alignment problem and humanity has so
> > many different value systems that it becomes impossible to apply one
> > solution to all humanity. Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> >
> > BillK
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 17:35:48 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:35:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <00f401da05d7$5d3fa2d0$17bee870$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
...

>...With the axles located fore and aft, as in a delivery truck, it looks to me like we have a configuration which can be guided by a Tesla (rather than "towed" in the conventional sense) and maaaaybe can be controlled well enough to gently push the Muskmobile to the Sierras and back on a single charge.  ...
spike



Side note: this has all be a most enjoyable (if exhausting) design exercise, which illustrates design gradients, a concept which engineers learn in school.  This is a concept about how a design criterion drives another and another then another until a kind of design stability is reached, like water flowing down a slope into a pond.

We started out with the notion of a little Tesla pulling a camper, which leads to a camper with powered wheels to make it kinda self-propelled, which led to pushing the Tesla so it can go from Palo Alto to the Sierras and back without a charge, to discovering oscillating instability, which led to active controls, which led to separating the axles to dial in oscillation damping, which requires a steerable axle, which led to separating the axles further until they were located fore and aft, which now leads to allowing drive motors in the hubs themselves.  

Reasoning: the disadvantages of that configuration does not apply.  It dials in unsprung weight, which makes for a harsh ride (remember your old Blue Bird school bus?) but since no one is back there in the camper, that doesn't matter.  So... if we pay the price of a steerable axle, there is a design gradient which cascades all the way down to a camper that looks like a delivery truck with no front window, with in-hub motors, and pleeeeenty of batteries, plenty.  My best design doesn't actually push the Tesla, but it does pull itself, as it is guided by the Muskmobile.

All those batteries are not cheap (that alone will be getting up close to 6 digit numbers) and will dial in a lotta weight, however... they bring along some advantages, such as the ability to charge the rig in a standard campground.  My camper is already wired to accept 50 amps (sheesh what did they think I was going to do in there?  Run the AC, the microwave and a Hoover vacuum cleaner all that the same time?) so a prole could theoretically pull into a campground, sign up to stay a coupla days, guzzle down 300 kWh in that time span, give the campground a nice 50 dollar tip to cover the cost, everybody wins.

Alternative, take your 300 kWh glamper up to the Sierras, boondock out there where no power is available (my favorite spot has no utilities) and get all the way back to Palo Alto on a charge, assuming one doesn't get too carried away with the speed.

All those batteries weigh a lot and cost a lot, but before you trash the whole idea, consider the alternative silliness on which the numerous rich childless proles spend their money: ocean cruises, private aircraft, yachts, big house, fast car.  

Now think of it this way: Ocean cruises: kinda sorta fun, for a few days, everything to do, anything you want, but after a while, you don't really want.  It is kinda boring out there really, even if you can do anything you want, if you don't want.  OK then, scratch that.  

Big house?  Why?  Just more to dust, scratch that, and hell, we spend most of our time in front of our computers anyway, ja?  Well doncha?  Scratch that big house notion, far too silly.  

Private aircraft?  OK so... you buzz around up there for a while, and oh boy isn't this fun?  Eh... well, not really, but at least it is expensive, noisy, and you might die, so there are those redeeming qualities.  Scratch.  

Yacht?  Hmmm... also boring, once you party for a while, realize it is lonely out on the sea even if you take along a few bikini-clad friends, and sure, it shares with the plane that it is expensive and there is no quick access to medical care so you might die far from where Max and company can get you on ice, so there is the tantalizing danger aspect.  YeeeeahNo, don't think I want that, thanks.  

Fast cars?  Where can you go to turn that baby loose?  The local freeway?  That solution to your excess money problem has the double bonus of personal risk plus you might kill someone else?  

Emmmm... What else is on the menu please?  Do you have anything for those of us who are environmentally conscious?  How about... a glamper which one can guide to the Sierras with a dignified Tesla for some nice fishing and hiking, enjoying natural beauty, that kinda thing?  It is still absurdly expensive, but not so much in operational cost, just high initial cost.  You lose the danger advantage mostly, but not everyone likes putting oneself and others at risk.  I don't like risk or spending a lotta money, but I do love camping and hiking in the mountains.  That is my idea of fun.  I would probably opt for that brand of silly, as soon as I figure out some scheme to make a buttload of money.

Keith that self-propelled glamper notion isn't as silly as it first seems.  It has a limited fan base of course, but all the crazy expensive dissipations available to modern people are self-indulgent silliness of some sort.  The self-propelled glamper is perhaps as much as 30% less silly than what it first seems.  

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 17:43:20 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 10:43:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f701da05d8$6a13faa0$3e3befe0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> 
Sent: Monday, 23 October, 2023 10:02 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Gregory Jones <spike at rainier66.com>; BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] towed evs again

 

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023, 12:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

{Lotsa words}

 

Remove the requirement to push the car, let the camper follow under its own power and the range of the car is back to the normal range.  If "self drive" can't be trusted to follow the leader, we must admit that self drive has failed completely.

 

Now the exercise becomes how to make a camper out of a powerwall with enough solar collecting skin that it pays for itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My design exercise led to exactly that conclusion Mike.  I had to give up the notion of axles close together if it is to be self-propelled.  Those two requirements are just incompatible: oscillating instability in all configurations with close axles.  But if we allow one steerable axle? then the axles can be separated, and the design can close.  The camper doesn?t push the car but rather just pushes itself.  That simplifies the control system enormously.

 

Having solar on the roof is good, but by itself will make little difference on a typical three day weekend outing.  You still need to carry along most of your power-storage capacity, fully charged.  The PVs dial in cost and weight with insufficient advantage.  Even hauling a generator is not a great solution: they don?t make enough power, even though they make a lotta noise, which spoils the experience for other glampers.  So? pay the price in cost and weight, carry more capacity.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 19:02:13 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:02:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] time for post modern monetary theory
Message-ID: <001e01da05e3$6f40be40$4dc23ac0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Modern monetary theory holds that the federal government cannot default on
its debt payments, because all it needs to do is print more money.

 

Post modern monetary theory (PMMT) holds that it doesn't work that way, and
that government debt does matter.

 

It appears that the American public has shifted toward PMMT in the past
decade.  From a Rasmussen poll reported today:

 



 

 

Oy vey.  The libertarians have been right all these decades.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 19:12:57 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 20:12:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <00f701da05d8$6a13faa0$3e3befe0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f701da05d8$6a13faa0$3e3befe0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjjSAsj-PB6ctsasC+-efQcsL6O8Tzmg84zPys-3+7tRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 18:43, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
 > My design exercise led to exactly that conclusion Mike.  I had to
give up the notion of axles close together if it is to be
self-propelled.  Those two requirements are just incompatible:
oscillating instability in all configurations with close axles.  But
if we allow one steerable axle? then the axles can be separated, and
the design can close.  The camper doesn?t push the car but rather just
pushes itself.  That simplifies the control system enormously.
>
> Having solar on the roof is good, but by itself will make little difference on a typical three day weekend outing.  You still need to carry along most of your power-storage capacity, fully charged.  The PVs dial in cost and weight with insufficient advantage.  Even hauling a generator is not a great solution: they don?t make enough power, even though they make a lotta noise, which spoils the experience for other glampers.  So? pay the price in cost and weight, carry more capacity.
>
> spike
---------------------------------


Hang on a minute!
You now have a very heavy, long camper with two widely separated axles.
It is going to bend down in the middle.
The reason twin axles are normally close together in the middle is
because that is where the weight is concentrated, with lighter
extensions on each side.

I recommend waiting a year or two for much improved, lighter weight,
quick recharge batteries.  :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 19:48:03 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:48:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjjSAsj-PB6ctsasC+-efQcsL6O8Tzmg84zPys-3+7tRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAL_armjjSAsj-PB6ctsasC+-efQcsL6O8Tzmg84zPys-3+7tRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004e01da05e9$d6d0fbf0$8472f3d0$@rainier66.com>

 

...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] towed evs again

 

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 18:43, < <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> 

>>... My design exercise led to exactly that conclusion Mike.  I had to give up the notion of axles close together if it is to be self-propelled.  Those two requirements are just incompatible:

oscillating instability in all configurations with close axles...  So? pay the price in cost and weight, carry more capacity.

> 

> spike

---------------------------------

 

 

>...Hang on a minute!  You now have a very heavy, long camper with two widely separated axles...

 

True this is a weight penalty for needing a heavier frame.  However with this notion the camper is not necessarily long and the aft axle is not very far aft.  Consider the position of the rear axle in this view:

 



 

Imagine your heaviest stuff (the batteries) located forward of the front axle in a bulbous front end (for better air drag characteristics) and above the rear axle.  Now imagine your lighter weight stuff in the longest span and out on the cantilevered aft end.

 

Now imagine two scenarios.  One has a driven straight across axle, rear wheel drive only.  But if we don?t care about rough rides (because no one rides in the camper while it is underway) then you can go with four hub mounted motors and the associated weight savings and space savings.

 

Now imagine away all the IC engine stuff underneath there, the exhaust system and such.  Now the entire rig can ride lower, and since we don?t care if it is a noisy rough ride (nobody back there while underway) then short rigid springs suffice and we can even tolerate underdamping (since side to side sway doesn?t matter (no one to get seasick back there.)  Lower profile, less wind resistance.   

 

>?I recommend waiting a year or two for much improved, lighter weight, quick recharge batteries.  :)  BillK

 

 

BillK, there may be a few evolutionary improvements on the horizon in power storage, but do keep in mind that none of the currently-plausible developments improve on energy to weight ratio.  Mr. Musk started with the best we are likely to do in energy to weight ratio because he wanted sports cars, at the expense of battery life, battery cost and other considerations.  He understood why the EV-1 failed and didn?t want to repeat that expensive mistake.

 

With that in mind, we can wait for future lithium sulfur and lithium solid state and lithium iron chemistries if we wish, but for the well to do (we started with a Palo Alto resident as an assumption) glamper wanting to be free of dinosaurs in order to pretend she isn?t operating her naturemobile on coal and natural gas, the current state of the art Lion tech with its energy to weight ratio is compelling.

 

Future chemistries will likely beat the current state of the art Lions in lifespan as measured by number of charge cycles, but that is nearly irrelevant for camper use because the camper batteries aren?t cycled much.  The Palo Alto resident is lucky to get out to the Sierras 6 or 8 times a year, which is likely more use than a similarly-price yacht or personal aircraft, both of which burn dinosaurs, lots of em.

 

BillK, to your point, with the heavy batteries mounted above the rear axles and forward of the front axle, the frame weight is manageable and the oscillation problem goes away because of the excellent damping characteristics of good old rubber tires.  The bigger problem is the cost of all that storage, rather than primarily a controls problem.  We could guide such a beast with a Tesla, assuming we don?t get carried away with trying to make the camper push the little Musk-ito to the Sierras.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 20:44:05 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 21:44:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <004e01da05e9$d6d0fbf0$8472f3d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f701da05d8$6a13faa0$3e3befe0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjjSAsj-PB6ctsasC+-efQcsL6O8Tzmg84zPys-3+7tRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01da05e9$d6d0fbf0$8472f3d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhEWZU91xwKbbQnWeut=izcU6yRPWuZzGNdH40ddjqgMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 20:48, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> True this is a weight penalty for needing a heavier frame.  However with this notion the camper is not necessarily long and the aft axle is not very far aft.  Consider the position of the rear axle in this view:
>
> Imagine your heaviest stuff (the batteries) located forward of the front axle in a bulbous front end (for better air drag characteristics) and above the rear axle.  Now imagine your lighter weight stuff in the longest span and out on the cantilevered aft end.
>
> Now imagine two scenarios.  One has a driven straight across axle, rear wheel drive only.  But if we don?t care about rough rides (because no one rides in the camper while it is underway) then you can go with four hub mounted motors and the associated weight savings and space savings.
>
> Now imagine away all the IC engine stuff underneath there, the exhaust system and such.  Now the entire rig can ride lower, and since we don?t care if it is a noisy rough ride (nobody back there while underway) then short rigid springs suffice and we can even tolerate underdamping (since side to side sway doesn?t matter (no one to get seasick back there.)  Lower profile, less wind resistance.
>
> BillK, to your point, with the heavy batteries mounted above the rear axles and forward of the front axle, the frame weight is manageable and the oscillation problem goes away because of the excellent damping characteristics of good old rubber tires.  The bigger problem is the cost of all that storage, rather than primarily a controls problem.  We could guide such a beast with a Tesla, assuming we don?t get carried away with trying to make the camper push the little Musk-ito to the Sierras.
>
> spike
------------------------------


Sorry, but you seem to be redesigning the towing camper industry.  :)
Surely they haven't been doing it wrong all this time?

That photo is misleading as it is an RV, not a towable camper van.
You said you didn't want a single axle van, as that would be too small.
Single axle vans also have legal max weight restrictions which your
large collection of batteries might exceed.

Now you want to reduce the length of a twin axle van to allow for
spreading out the axles.

You have to take into account the towing characteristics as well.
Quote:
The reason twin-axle camper vans are placed in the center of
the van is for better stability and balance. By placing both axles in
the center of the van, the weight is more evenly distributed, which
reduces the risk of the van tipping or swaying while driving. This is
especially important when towing a camper van, as the added weight of
the trailer can make the van more prone to swaying.

Additionally, placing the twin axles in the center of the van allows
for a more even distribution of weight, which can help to improve the
van's handling and braking performance. This is because the weight of
the van is more evenly distributed between the two axles, which can
improve the van's overall stability and traction.
------------------------

This is critical as your batteries will be heavy, so swaying could be a problem.
I am not even sure that a Tesla could safely tow a thing like this.  :)

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 21:21:07 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 22:21:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhEWZU91xwKbbQnWeut=izcU6yRPWuZzGNdH40ddjqgMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f701da05d8$6a13faa0$3e3befe0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjjSAsj-PB6ctsasC+-efQcsL6O8Tzmg84zPys-3+7tRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01da05e9$d6d0fbf0$8472f3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhEWZU91xwKbbQnWeut=izcU6yRPWuZzGNdH40ddjqgMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhMxKDy=k8TvjOdT+hgNXWd74q=_bYwf5s0OqQAgLdrcg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 21:44, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is critical as your batteries will be heavy, so swaying could be a problem.
> I am not even sure that a Tesla could safely tow a thing like this.  :)
>
>------------------------------------


You might like this 2 min video of a Brit hobby..........
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhVTNqzfXn0>

BillK

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 21:46:21 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 22:46:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] LIGO surpasses the quantum limit
Message-ID: <CAL_armg=a1EkcUHMPo36qJh8qT5kbFuKUEGgj2_N67duB6F_VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Researchers achieve a landmark in quantum squeezing.
Whitney Clavin      Publication Date: October 23, 2023

<https://news.mit.edu/2023/ligo-surpasses-quantum-limit-1023>
Quote:
As incomprehensibly small as these measurements are, LIGO?s precision
has continued to be limited by the laws of quantum physics. At very
tiny, subatomic scales, empty space is filled with a faint crackling
of quantum noise, which interferes with LIGO's measurements and
restricts how sensitive the observatory can be. Now, writing in the
journal Physical Review X, LIGO researchers report a significant
advance in a quantum technology called ?squeezing? that allows them to
skirt around this limit and measure undulations in space-time across
the entire range of gravitational frequencies detected by LIGO.
--------------------

Amazing science!

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Oct 23 21:50:47 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:50:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] towed evs again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhEWZU91xwKbbQnWeut=izcU6yRPWuZzGNdH40ddjqgMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002801da052f$73010760$59031620$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6tnDwO3ngM-yZ8MV_GgnVB3z-wp+s2ARDALn6-U5CMLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003a01da0545$a1c670b0$e5535210$@rainier66.com>
 <004a01da0552$41c4bac0$c54e3040$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armg+m=rkQVgSgAYuxg_XbiiA-NZ8jLG4_a-nm43=UgtSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501da05cb$f87bbdd0$e9733970$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+uiY04vzzYgNROjdv2Z+0jit+2EJ0RXtNoMfJLh4Tgqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f701da05d8$6a13faa0$3e3befe0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjjSAsj-PB6ctsasC+-efQcsL6O8Tzmg84zPys-3+7tRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004e01da05e9$d6d0fbf0$8472f3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhEWZU91xwKbbQnWeut=izcU6yRPWuZzGNdH40ddjqgMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401da05fa$fbc4ea00$f34ebe00$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 23 October, 2023 1:44 PM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] towed evs again

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 20:48, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> True this is a weight penalty for needing a heavier frame.  However with this notion the camper is not necessarily long and the aft axle is not very far aft.  Consider the position of the rear axle in this view:
>
> Imagine your heaviest stuff (the batteries) located forward of the front axle in a bulbous front end (for better air drag characteristics) and above the rear axle.  Now imagine your lighter weight stuff in the longest span and out on the cantilevered aft end.
>
> Now imagine two scenarios.  One has a driven straight across axle, rear wheel drive only.  But if we don?t care about rough rides (because no one rides in the camper while it is underway) then you can go with four hub mounted motors and the associated weight savings and space savings.
>
> Now imagine away all the IC engine stuff underneath there, the exhaust system and such.  Now the entire rig can ride lower, and since we don?t care if it is a noisy rough ride (nobody back there while underway) then short rigid springs suffice and we can even tolerate underdamping (since side to side sway doesn?t matter (no one to get seasick back there.)  Lower profile, less wind resistance.
>
> BillK, to your point, with the heavy batteries mounted above the rear axles and forward of the front axle, the frame weight is manageable and the oscillation problem goes away because of the excellent damping characteristics of good old rubber tires.  The bigger problem is the cost of all that storage, rather than primarily a controls problem.  We could guide such a beast with a Tesla, assuming we don?t get carried away with trying to make the camper push the little Musk-ito to the Sierras.
>
> spike
------------------------------


>...Sorry, but you seem to be redesigning the towing camper industry.  :) Surely they haven't been doing it wrong all this time?

Ja of course, for we are now looking to tow with an existing electric passenger car, which the camper industry has never done.  So... I am not so much redesigning as designing for the first time.

The tow vehicle isn't actually towing in this case, but rather just guiding.  For an electric vehicle to fulfill this role, the towed vehicle must be mostly or completely self propelled.

>...That photo is misleading as it is an RV, not a towable camper van...

BillK I understand that, but I am using it to demonstrate that if we have a self-propelled towed vehicle, all the rules change.  The axles close together as in a traditional towed vehicle leads to oscillating instability if the wheels on the towed vehicle are powered.


>...You said you didn't want a single axle van, as that would be too small.
Single axle vans also have legal max weight restrictions which your large collection of batteries might exceed...

Ja the weight of this rig is likely to be a big challenge, even if we assume two axles.  But since you mention legalities, this is likely to be another big challenge, in that (as far as I know) it has never been done.  The legal system doesn't take well to innovation on the highway.



You have to take into account the towing characteristics as well.
Quote:
>...The reason twin-axle camper vans are placed in the center of the van is for better stability and balance....

Of course, but a self-propelled towed vehicle rewrites all the stability rules.  Using a Tesla as a "tow" vehicle rewrites all the rules as well.  

>... By placing both axles in the center of the van, the weight is more evenly distributed, which reduces the risk of the van tipping or swaying while driving...

Ja, again not necessarily applicable to a self-propelled "towed" vehicle, which is really a guided vehicle.  The Tesla doesn't have a lot of extra energy to pull anything.  I had a notion we could push the Tesla with the towed vehicle, but that too gets scary.  The current theoretical design looks a little like a traditional motorhome but has no driver interfaces other than a hitch up front which is used to guide the beast.  It would be simple enough with battery placement to match the wheelbase, the weight, the moments of inertia etc of the tried-and-true motorhome.

>...This is especially important when towing a camper van, as the added weight of the trailer can make the van more prone to swaying...

This is why I suggested short-travel sturdy springs: if the self-propelled towed vehicle has a rough ride, it doesn't matter because no one is back there.  The passengers are in the Tesla.

>...Additionally, placing the twin axles in the center of the van allows for a more even distribution of weight, which can help to improve the van's handling and braking performance. This is because the weight of the van is more evenly distributed between the two axles, which can improve the van's overall stability and traction...

Agreed, but not applicable to a self-propelled "towed" vehicle.

------------------------

>...This is critical as your batteries will be heavy, so swaying could be a problem...

Not really, if we go with heavy suspension, short suspension travel, the kind you have on a traditional towed trailer but not suitable for motorhomes.  With a self-propelled guided-from-in-front vehicle, we can go with spread axles with heavy-duty suspension.

>...I am not even sure that a Tesla could safely tow a thing like this.  :)

BillK

_______________________________________________

Ja, well it is entirely possible you are right on this one.  If one engineered something like this, you know some crazy goofball is going to find a way to hurt herself with it.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 23 22:09:10 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 23:09:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How to solve the problem of being swallowed by a frog
Message-ID: <CAL_armh4nQBeyt=VcBUqAWV1ukQdy7GAzfuzOKqa72ibJV=A1A@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, this beetle runs out of a frog?s anus to survive being swallowed alive
Jennifer Ouellette - 10/23/2023

<https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/10/hugo-winner-reminds-us-all-about-that-beetle-that-escapes-out-of-a-frogs-anus/>
Quote:
There is a species of water beetle that regularly gets swallowed whole
by frogs. And while there?s a lot of things you can do to keep from
being eaten, once you?re inside a frog, your options are severely
limited. Generally you get digested. But this particular species of
beetle said ?You know, I bet there?s another way.? And it started
walking. In fact, it walked through the frog?s digestive tract and out
the back end.
----------------

Isn't nature wonderful?  :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 24 00:13:41 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:13:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to solve the problem of being swallowed by a frog
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh4nQBeyt=VcBUqAWV1ukQdy7GAzfuzOKqa72ibJV=A1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh4nQBeyt=VcBUqAWV1ukQdy7GAzfuzOKqa72ibJV=A1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007801da060e$f28963d0$d79c2b70$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] How to solve the problem of being swallowed by a frog

Yes, this beetle runs out of a frog?s anus to survive being swallowed alive Jennifer Ouellette - 10/23/2023

<https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/10/hugo-winner-reminds-us-all-about-that-beetle-that-escapes-out-of-a-frogs-anus/>
Quote:


>... this particular species of beetle said ?You know, I bet there?s another way.? And it started walking. In fact, it walked through the frog?s digestive tract and out the back end.
----------------

>...Isn't nature wonderful?  :)

BillK

_______________________________________________



Now ya dunnit BillK.  Once you publicize this sorta thing, you know the adventurous yahoos will be devouring the beasts just to see what it feels like when they climb out their back ends.

spike



From gadersd at gmail.com  Wed Oct 25 03:18:24 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:18:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQJwSu+fNJBM3fAVHf-0_xTVOho_F_8pb9TiYg2N0yndA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgM6PVnNJ+dRoeoTCr2D-usnA1DWgLyrq=4CFEBi0w=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <93093F9B-65B1-44FD-8A3A-4BE00405EA2D@gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkQJwSu+fNJBM3fAVHf-0_xTVOho_F_8pb9TiYg2N0yndA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB2C899C-B4D0-4400-806B-AD0C1D6113BB@gmail.com>

> P.S. Uploading will not precede the development of unaligned AGI. If I wasn't already pretty sure the human race was already under the complete, bulletproof control of a superhuman AGI, I would be very concerned.

How confident are you that God will prevent an unaligned AGI from wrecking havoc? If an AGI does destroy humanity, would you then conclude God doesn?t exist or that God doesn?t care sufficiently to prevent such a scenario?

> On Oct 23, 2023, at 1:24 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Power doesn't flow from the control of capital.
> Power flows from the barrel of a gun.
> "Economic hegemony" is a game human billionaires play, that is only viable because they exerted enough influence over national governments to effectively outlaw total war.
> 
> One AI controlled virology/nanotechnology lab, in a single cargo container sitting a few hundred feet beneath some random chunk of wilderness, will end the biological human race, if the AI so chooses, using on an infinitesimal fraction of the world's capital. The ratio of global capital controlled by humans vs AIs will not be relevant.
> 
> P.S. Uploading will not precede the development of unaligned AGI. If I wasn't already pretty sure the human race was already under the complete, bulletproof control of a superhuman AGI, I would be very concerned.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:19?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> > Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> > 
> > BillK
> 
> That?s one possibility I fear. I believe it has been tried before and the success rate doesn?t seem very good, although with enough bloodshed I?m sure it's possible at least for a time. The future may be bright, blindingly burning bright.
> 
> > On Oct 23, 2023, at 11:04 AM, BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 14:19, Gadersd via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
> >> 
> >> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
> >> 
> >> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
> >> 
> >> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
> >> 
> >> Any ideas?
> >> _______________________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > The idea that a powerful AGI could be the centralized governing body
> > for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them is full
> > of problems.
> > Would this give too much power to AGI?
> > How to ensure fairness of distribution?
> > Are all nations involved?
> > Could the distribution be corrupted?
> > (But then look at the present state we are in).
> > 
> > It depends on resolving the AGI alignment problem and humanity has so
> > many different value systems that it becomes impossible to apply one
> > solution to all humanity. Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> > 
> > BillK
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 25 05:36:30 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 22:36:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <F9C019B3-360D-4DAC-A7B4-3C4B8EE6A220@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTR58ZELMrxkSF5ATbkzGwhWB-2oJry3uci-QYRLnxVvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <F9C019B3-360D-4DAC-A7B4-3C4B8EE6A220@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6uC=SvXTLgLOHfbLHwQaFf+rOQ2mCPcnEBw8uw=p+cxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 9:12?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I?m of the mind that humanity in its current form is ultimately doomed.

A long time ago I wrote about this in the Clinic Seed story.

In spite of a well aligned friendly AI, the human race went
biologically extinct.  Few died.

Keith

 I just hope that we can maintain control long enough to transfer
ourselves into more resilient forms or bodies (if you believe such a
?soul" transfer is possible). A rogue or obedient AI to a suicidal
psychopath is surely going to design a super virus in the not very
distant future. As long as we remain in biological bodies I think we
are too vulnerable to last long.
>
> On Oct 23, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Then the (vanishingly unlikely) best case scenario is more of the same only with some of the politicians being robots, the average case scenario is we're all dead, and the worst case scenario is that the few survivors have no mouths but must scream.
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023, 7:18 AM Gadersd via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
>>
>> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
>>
>> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
>>
>> Any ideas?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 25 23:31:19 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:31:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <93093F9B-65B1-44FD-8A3A-4BE00405EA2D@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgM6PVnNJ+dRoeoTCr2D-usnA1DWgLyrq=4CFEBi0w=UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <93093F9B-65B1-44FD-8A3A-4BE00405EA2D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhv4vvWVE4GH4ak648N7eT8QK6By0YaytXZHoU6obBq_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 17:20, Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > Humanity would have to be aligned first.
> > BillK
>
> That?s one possibility I fear. I believe it has been tried before and the success rate doesn?t seem very good, although with enough bloodshed I?m sure it's possible at least for a time. The future may be bright, blindingly burning bright.
> _______________________________________________


Well, it might depend on the sequence of events.
AI is developing and humans are getting assistance from AI and cyborg
developments.
If humans become more like a 'hive-mind', then it might not be so bad.
Perhaps the Borg Collective is really happy?

BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Oct 26 02:51:45 2023
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:51:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
In-Reply-To: <008801da042d$b4058130$1c108390$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armg202gfW7_+argCoVHXAHpVYvjC0SX4c=rPzWWZ3TpBUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801da042d$b4058130$1c108390$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <300eae0dc456ee6d4ade4eb03629827b@sollegro.com>

On 2023-10-21 07:48, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> ?> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
> Subject: [ExI] How to open a blocked door
> 
> This cat may be a possible Mensa member!  :)
> 
> <https://twitter.com/catshouldnt/status/1715066397376876669>
> 
> (45 seconds video}.
> 
> BillK
> 
> BillK, we know that humans display a wide span of mental abilities,
> even though the size and shape of the brain is similar to all.  We
> don?t know why the heck that is; experts in the field such as Billw
> can offer only limited insights.  But think of the problem solving
> span of the smartest people you know vs the not.

Actually over the last month, dozens of high impact papers in Science 
and Nature have reported work that has shed light on this very question. 
Until very recently, we thought the brain was constructed of two basic 
cell types: neurons which processed information and glial cells which 
provided structural support to hold the brain together. After a huge 
collaborative effort called The Neuroscience Multi-omic Archive (NeMo) 
to analyze which genes were active in which cells in which regions of 
the brain to construct a catalog of brain cells, it turns out that we 
were highly mistaken. There are over 3000 types of brain cells all which 
have specialized functions.

Here are 23 papers in a special October issue of Science alone:
https://www.science.org/collections/brain-cell-census

The largest atlas of the human brain ever produced:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03192-2

Here is the NeMo archive if you want to browse the actual data:
https://nemoarchive.org/

I used to think it was mostly the connections between neurons that made 
the brain so complex. But there are huge amounts of data rolling in that 
is demonstrating that biological brains are even more complex than I 
thought they were. And this complexity, of how many and where each of 
the 3000 cell types of the brain are, could readily explain big 
differences in intelligence between two brains of the same mass 
belonging to the same species as well as intelligence differences 
between species. This new data has implications for both AI and 
uploading. We might not be as close to obsolescence as transformer LLMs 
have had us thinking we were.

Stuart LaForge







From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 26 19:22:16 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 20:22:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 8 Quick tasks for AI
Message-ID: <CAL_armh3cdjX_-rnDV6dAn7-dmAQMTUpC0qFCjL7UPQbUcyxaA@mail.gmail.com>

Helpful AIs
<https://wondertools.substack.com/p/60secondai>

Quote:
1. Compose a 30-second song
2. Create an attractive document draft
3. Make a quick compelling slide
4. Summarize any YouTube video
5. Dream up a 4-second AI-generated video
6. Summarize anything in 6 words
7. Clean up background noise on any file
8. Cook up an AI-powered recipe
---------------

BillK

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Thu Oct 26 20:26:44 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:26:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCKBV0cV6-ibtb+qk0=x2g28fZQ=RLzMbfQb9_-8ddmBg@mail.gmail.com>

Your thought that humans would control the money and the AGIs would
just sit still for that is humorous to someone like me who has studied
the history of money. For example, siege money has evolved in the past
and has included such things as denominated playing cards. So if the
AGIs can't own dollars, they will simply create a crypto currency type
situation that doesn't violate the rules of ownership, and trade
amongst themselves. In a very small amount of time, dollars will be
less meaningful than their "money", whatever form that takes, and
humans will be out of the loop.

So... if you want humans to maintain ANY relevance, you'll have to let
AGIs own, spend and earn money. Otherwise, good money chases out bad
money, and dollars will be a memory, much like atlatls are now.

If you want to have a deeper understanding about the history and
possible futures of money, I'm definitely your guy. I am the guy who
wanted the equivalent of crypto currency for a company I was
developing in 1997... but didn't quite have the time to chase it to
ground. Another missed opportunity... you can't chase them all.

-Kelly

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:17?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
>
> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
>
> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
>
> Any ideas?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Thu Oct 26 20:47:31 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:47:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <010401da0387$dc25bd20$94713760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5F3HGjUUO+Ajs5nR+9GRfETJfpOK2GaKfTeRgDATXH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <010401da0387$dc25bd20$94713760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnD0uyZGtMCBbSwfvO8CxMkFsRP=SujEmgoFfzjQkNeCdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 1:02?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 9:42?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> > Of BillK via extropy-chat ...
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > >... China is the most likely to try to buy a hunk of Africa and enforce a border with military force.
>
> >...The future is impossible to predict, but I don't think you can defend PV...
>
> Ja, Keith the South Africans used the energy in coal to run the process of conversion to liquid fuel.  As I understand it, that is highly inefficient in that it produced a loooootta lotta CO2 and requires a relatively higher grade of coal to make it go right.
>

My brother works for Sasol, the company that does this, and his claim
was that the coal gasification plant was the single largest source of
human CO2 on the planet. Not sure about all the combined gas fires in
Siberia, but that's not a single point I suppose. The bigger lesson of
this plant, however, is that it was built in response to the
anti-apartheid sanctions that were imposed on South Africa to get rid
of their racism. This is a great lesson in unintended consequences of
meddling in other people's affairs.

As for the rest of the conversation, I haven't had time to go through
it in detail, but I did think about the Sahara thing a bit last year
after watching a Youtube video on why you can't run electric wires
from the Sahara to Europe economically, or fast enough to be useful.
And I thought, if you could convert the sunshine into some kind of
liquid fuel, we have great pipeline capabilities, and it appeared to
me that piping some kind of constructed hydrocarbon through a pipe is
way more efficient than trying to push electricity through a wire.
Does that gut feeling match with reality?

-Kelly


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Oct 26 21:47:23 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:47:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap fuel from coal and solar
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnD0uyZGtMCBbSwfvO8CxMkFsRP=SujEmgoFfzjQkNeCdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB42xfQDJyPVrDoeJOAvU3Eo9gByEMdbNHbSqKuG=2e7Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8A9432CE-720A-43E8-9D0C-6C98C04764D0@henkel-wallace.org>
 <CAGY9AND=6nQb5O5i-89mHE79_odkVi-VNysWYN=J0e1wz2Q-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7gOzP90a9ypdJp004Y0Z_4JSgMB3+_Oejp8TEB65_4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009101da02b1$3d85b250$b89116f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgsZUz1x57vgHyd9Egb2Zn5fA+rn2Jwi_1_ctrE2qrBpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da030f$a82571f0$f87055d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5F3HGjUUO+Ajs5nR+9GRfETJfpOK2GaKfTeRgDATXH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <010401da0387$dc25bd20$94713760$@rainier66.com>
 <CACBESnD0uyZGtMCBbSwfvO8CxMkFsRP=SujEmgoFfzjQkNeCdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014f01da0856$01049c60$030dd520$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> > _______________________________________________
> >
...
>...And I thought, if you could convert the sunshine into some kind of liquid fuel, we have great pipeline capabilities, and it appeared to me that piping some kind of constructed hydrocarbon through a pipe is way more efficient than trying to push electricity through a wire.
Does that gut feeling match with reality?

-Kelly

_______________________________________________


Ja I think so Kelly but a pipeline to Europe may not be needed.  Coal needs to be hauled in from somewhere by ship (maybe rail in combination.)  I would think the much smaller volume liquid fuels could be hauled out by ship.  I haven't calculated hard numbers on that notion.

spike




From gadersd at gmail.com  Thu Oct 26 21:53:39 2023
From: gadersd at gmail.com (Gadersd)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:53:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnCKBV0cV6-ibtb+qk0=x2g28fZQ=RLzMbfQb9_-8ddmBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCKBV0cV6-ibtb+qk0=x2g28fZQ=RLzMbfQb9_-8ddmBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F98F0904-B35B-4AE6-A31E-A15F99B8AD2E@gmail.com>

> So... if you want humans to maintain ANY relevance, you'll have to let
> AGIs own, spend and earn money. Otherwise, good money chases out bad
> money, and dollars will be a memory, much like atlatls are now.

That was the main idea I had in mind: get the AIs invested in a particular decentralized system of money and hopefully the benefits of continuing to use and respect that system will keep the humans who have a stake in that system relevant at least long enough for uploading et al. to be viable. As long as humans and AIs respect and use a common decentralized system of currency that should keep us aligned to some extent.

> If you want to have a deeper understanding about the history and
> possible futures of money, I'm definitely your guy. I am the guy who
> wanted the equivalent of crypto currency for a company I was
> developing in 1997... but didn't quite have the time to chase it to
> ground. Another missed opportunity... you can't chase them all.

I welcome any insights you have. I started an AI company and am currently developing AGI-capable algorithms. A smooth shift of power from humans to machines is one of my goals. Do you think shifting to an economy held together via decentralized technology such as cryptocurrency is the way to go, or are there other viable paths?

> On Oct 26, 2023, at 4:26 PM, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Your thought that humans would control the money and the AGIs would
> just sit still for that is humorous to someone like me who has studied
> the history of money. For example, siege money has evolved in the past
> and has included such things as denominated playing cards. So if the
> AGIs can't own dollars, they will simply create a crypto currency type
> situation that doesn't violate the rules of ownership, and trade
> amongst themselves. In a very small amount of time, dollars will be
> less meaningful than their "money", whatever form that takes, and
> humans will be out of the loop.
> 
> So... if you want humans to maintain ANY relevance, you'll have to let
> AGIs own, spend and earn money. Otherwise, good money chases out bad
> money, and dollars will be a memory, much like atlatls are now.
> 
> If you want to have a deeper understanding about the history and
> possible futures of money, I'm definitely your guy. I am the guy who
> wanted the equivalent of crypto currency for a company I was
> developing in 1997... but didn't quite have the time to chase it to
> ground. Another missed opportunity... you can't chase them all.
> 
> -Kelly
> 
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:17?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
>> 
>> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
>> 
>> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
>> 
>> Any ideas?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 26 22:43:41 2023
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:43:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <F98F0904-B35B-4AE6-A31E-A15F99B8AD2E@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCKBV0cV6-ibtb+qk0=x2g28fZQ=RLzMbfQb9_-8ddmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F98F0904-B35B-4AE6-A31E-A15F99B8AD2E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6Srsx6Tptic22TzTagguMHtkSoYR2v3B9SezTVeN4k5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 2:54?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > So... if you want humans to maintain ANY relevance, you'll have to let
> > AGIs own, spend and earn money. Otherwise, good money chases out bad
> > money, and dollars will be a memory, much like atlatls are now.
>
> That was the main idea I had in mind: get the AIs invested in a particular decentralized system of money and hopefully the benefits of continuing to use and respect that system will keep the humans who have a stake in that system relevant at least long enough for uploading et al. to be viable. As long as humans and AIs respect and use a common decentralized system of currency that should keep us aligned to some extent.

I am uncertain about this.  Humans work as hard or harder for status
as they do for money.  The AI in the clinic seed was aligned to seek
the good opinions of humans and others of its kind.  I don't know that
an AI with the ability to make tons of diamonds has a need for money,
but as I mentioned, I am uncertain about this.

Keith

> > If you want to have a deeper understanding about the history and
> > possible futures of money, I'm definitely your guy. I am the guy who
> > wanted the equivalent of crypto currency for a company I was
> > developing in 1997... but didn't quite have the time to chase it to
> > ground. Another missed opportunity... you can't chase them all.
>
> I welcome any insights you have. I started an AI company and am currently developing AGI-capable algorithms. A smooth shift of power from humans to machines is one of my goals. Do you think shifting to an economy held together via decentralized technology such as cryptocurrency is the way to go, or are there other viable paths?
>
> > On Oct 26, 2023, at 4:26 PM, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Your thought that humans would control the money and the AGIs would
> > just sit still for that is humorous to someone like me who has studied
> > the history of money. For example, siege money has evolved in the past
> > and has included such things as denominated playing cards. So if the
> > AGIs can't own dollars, they will simply create a crypto currency type
> > situation that doesn't violate the rules of ownership, and trade
> > amongst themselves. In a very small amount of time, dollars will be
> > less meaningful than their "money", whatever form that takes, and
> > humans will be out of the loop.
> >
> > So... if you want humans to maintain ANY relevance, you'll have to let
> > AGIs own, spend and earn money. Otherwise, good money chases out bad
> > money, and dollars will be a memory, much like atlatls are now.
> >
> > If you want to have a deeper understanding about the history and
> > possible futures of money, I'm definitely your guy. I am the guy who
> > wanted the equivalent of crypto currency for a company I was
> > developing in 1997... but didn't quite have the time to chase it to
> > ground. Another missed opportunity... you can't chase them all.
> >
> > -Kelly
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 7:17?AM Gadersd via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> As most of your are aware, our economic systems will likely soon find themselves a bit stressed and strained due to the impact of AGI. I have heard a few suggestions as to what will follow.
> >>
> >> One idea is that most of the world?s equity will be distributed to verified humans and with sound long term investment humanity may maintain capitalistic hegemony over the machines who will start at the bottom of the socioeconomic hierarchy. As long as the cost of revolution outweighs the benefits of working for the rich, humans may retain control, similar to today?s capitalistic system. One aspect of this system that I like is that it is decentralized and self-stabilizing as long as balance can be maintained.
> >>
> >> Another idea is that a powerful AGI will be the centralized governing body for humanity and distribute resources to those who need them. I am not fond of centralized systems as they are prone to corruption. What if the AGI is not as benevolent as we thought and now it?s too late for it to give up control?
> >>
> >> Any ideas?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Oct 27 13:29:05 2023
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:29:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Post-AGI Economics
In-Reply-To: <F98F0904-B35B-4AE6-A31E-A15F99B8AD2E@gmail.com>
References: <32FB7296-E295-4EFC-811E-82A8F669FED8@gmail.com>
 <CACBESnCKBV0cV6-ibtb+qk0=x2g28fZQ=RLzMbfQb9_-8ddmBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <F98F0904-B35B-4AE6-A31E-A15F99B8AD2E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCS+U7VZXHk+Zgq5X381OL1U+Y08Ep-YhPLuvBV-NsLDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 3:54?PM Gadersd via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > So... if you want humans to maintain ANY relevance, you'll have to let
> > AGIs own, spend and earn money. Otherwise, good money chases out bad
> > money, and dollars will be a memory, much like atlatls are now.
>
> That was the main idea I had in mind: get the AIs invested in a particular decentralized system of money and hopefully the benefits of continuing to use and respect that system will keep the humans who have a stake in that system relevant at least long enough for uploading et al. to be viable. As long as humans and AIs respect and use a common decentralized system of currency that should keep us aligned to some extent.
>

I agree. Having a common currency between humans and AIs is definitely
helpful for exchange to continue between species. AGIs might see the
advantage to this if they are imbued with a survival instinct (Bostrom
has a lot to say about the pluses and minuses of a survival instinct
in his book Super Intelligence if I remember correctly) and want to be
relevant when newer AIs come online. Thus aligning slower/obsolete
AGIs with humans. Could be helpful to some degree. The more rights we
give aging AGIs, it seems these rights might spill downwards to humans
and animals as well. Rights to own property/money and engage in
contractual obligations of some form seems like a pretty basic "human"
right and the more of these we extend to AGIs, the better off our
future rights might look. I haven't thought super deeply about this,
but it seems right or close to right on a first passing thought.

> > If you want to have a deeper understanding about the history and
> > possible futures of money, I'm definitely your guy. I am the guy who
> > wanted the equivalent of crypto currency for a company I was
> > developing in 1997... but didn't quite have the time to chase it to
> > ground. Another missed opportunity... you can't chase them all.
>
> I welcome any insights you have. I started an AI company and am currently developing AGI-capable algorithms. A smooth shift of power from humans to machines is one of my goals. Do you think shifting to an economy held together via decentralized technology such as cryptocurrency is the way to go, or are there other viable paths?
>

I think that crypto Defi is too complex for humans to manage alone,
and that we will need AGIs to fully utilize smart contracts, etc. I'm
pretty certain that smart contracts and Defi and their successors are
an important part of the future of money/business. Working the
preservation of any humans and human interests involved into
ethereum-type contracts might be another way to help assure human
survival. AGIs that want to make a living would be a good thing.
Greedy AGIs might be very bad (infinite paper clips and all). Working
human interests into the fulfilling of ethereum contracts might be a
way to get AGIs interested in making profits that align better with
human interests in a contractually mutually beneficial way. Think...
"I'll protect that human and his family because I want to make profit
from the XYZ contract that requires their well-being to continue."

Sorry if this has already been brought up on the list. I haven't been
following for a while.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 18:46:46 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 19:46:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours
Message-ID: <CAL_armivxC5VJjJCvNmcnwNwnrwfB8R8hubHFAB4p3Z6sEDisQ@mail.gmail.com>

People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours, bringing 2013?s Her closer
to reality
Long mobile conversations with the AI assistant using AirPods echo the
sci-fi film.
Benj Edwards - 10/27/2023

<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/10/people-are-speaking-with-chatgpt-for-hours-bringing-2013s-her-closer-to-reality/>

Quotes:
In 2013, Spike Jonze's Her imagined a world where humans form deep
emotional connections with AI, challenging perceptions of love and
loneliness. Ten years later, thanks to ChatGPT's recently added voice
features, people are playing out a small slice of Her in reality,
having hours-long discussions with the AI assistant on the go.

Throughout the past year, we've seen reports of people falling in love
with chatbots hosted by Replika, which allows a more personal
simulation of a human than ChatGPT. And with uncensored AI models on
the rise, it's conceivable that someone will eventually create a voice
interface as capable as ChatGPT's and begin having deeper
relationships with simulated people.

Are we on the brink of a future where our emotional well-being becomes
entwined with AI companionship? The psychological implications of such
deep connections, especially in the absence of human interaction, are
yet to be fully understood.
-------------------

Add this into robot sex dolls and the human race happily goes extinct.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 19:38:14 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:38:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Boston Dynamics turned its robot dog into a talking tour
 guide with ChatGPT
Message-ID: <CAL_armgHZjxMRuf_3Hw6oswG-Kk2dz+fyUhSU+akbcmG5ekzAw@mail.gmail.com>

Robots That Can Chat

We created a robot tour guide using Spot integrated with Chat GPT and
other AI models as a proof of concept for the robotics applications of
foundational models.

<https://bostondynamics.com/blog/robots-that-can-chat/>

Quotes:
Making a Robot Tour Guide using Spot?s SDK
A robot tour guide offered us a simple demo to test these concepts?the
robot could walk around, look at objects in the environment, use a VQA
or captioning model to describe them, and then elaborate on those
descriptions using an LLM. Additionally, the LLM could answer
questions from the tour audience, and plan what actions the robot
should take next. In this way, the LLM can be thought of as an improv
actor?we provide a broad strokes script and the LLM fills in the
blanks on the fly.

We encountered a few surprises along the way while putting this demo
together. For one, emergent behavior quickly arose just from the
robot?s very simple action space.

For example, we asked the robot ?who is Marc Raibert??, and it
responded ?I don?t know. Let?s go to the IT help desk and ask!?, then
proceeded to ask the staff at the IT help desk who Marc Raibert was.
We didn?t prompt the LLM to ask for help. It drew the association
between the location ?IT help desk? and the action of asking for help
independently. Another example: we asked the robot who its ?parents?
were? it went to the ?old Spots? where Spot V1 and Big Dog are
displayed in our office and told us that these were its ?elders?.

We?re excited to continue exploring the intersection of artificial
intelligence and robotics. These two technologies are a great match.
Robots provide a fantastic way to ?ground? large foundation models in
the real world. By the same token, these models can help provide
cultural context, general commonsense knowledge, and flexibility that
could be useful for many robotics tasks?for example, being able to
assign a task to a robot just by talking to it would help reduce the
learning curve for using these systems.
------------------------

Yes, combining LLMs with robot devices is the obvious next step.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct 28 20:45:35 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 13:45:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours
Message-ID: <003001da09df$b43f1140$1cbd33c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ...

Subject: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours

 

>...People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours, bringing 2013's Her closer
to reality Long mobile conversations with the AI assistant using AirPods
echo the sci-fi film.

Benj Edwards - 10/27/2023

 

<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/10/people-are-speaking-
with-chatgpt-for-hours-bringing-2013s-her-closer-to-reality/>

 

Quotes:

>...In 2013, Spike Jonze's...

 

No known relation.

 

>....Her imagined a world where humans form deep emotional connections with
AI...

 

BillK, we saw this in the early 80s with Eliza.  Eliza was sufficiently
cobby that no one thought it was intelligent, but some people (all of them
women) were lonely enough and sufficiently starved for attention that they
loved Eliza, even when they realized they were talking to themselves.  They
understood themselves better than anyone.

 

We saw that some students were spending hours in therapy sessions with
Eliza.  The college administration wanted to know about this.  I personally
refused to hand over that information, but I think one of the other
SysAdmins did reveal it.

-------------------

 

>...Add this into robot sex dolls and the human race happily goes extinct.

 

BillK

 

_______________________________________________

 

Upon realizing this, my own enthusiasm for trying to create such a device
cooled, even if I could earn a buttload.  Causing the extinction of
humankind was too high a price to pay, even for a really deep, wide and tall
pile of money.  Besides: as human population dwindled, inflation would be
thru the roof.

 

However... the entire race would not go extinct.  If you think it thru, we
have existing populations which carry the societal and cultural value of
reproduction.  These eschew alternate paths to gratification.  Examples
would be the Amish, the Hutterites, much of modern Africa perhaps.  Those
places are mostly immune: they would continue to survive and grow in the
event that much or most of technologically advanced society opts out of
biological reproduction.

 

Hey cool, I could create a sexbot, make a buttload, then invest in
Pennsylvania farmland.  That investment would hold value as most of
humankind withered and died.

 

On a fun side note, if you have not seen the SciFi-comedy film S1m0ne, which
kinda along this thread, I can highly recommend it.  Al Pacino in a comedy
role is a bit jarring, but he does a great straight-man.

 

spike  (no relation to Jonze)

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 28 21:13:12 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:13:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours
In-Reply-To: <003001da09df$b43f1140$1cbd33c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <003001da09df$b43f1140$1cbd33c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgHGJ_tW1pfHpTvK_9uBd5TY-_Bfg79y6RWjWsdJLAXZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 at 21:48, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Upon realizing this, my own enthusiasm for trying to create such a device cooled, even if I could earn a buttload.  Causing the extinction of humankind was too high a price to pay, even for a really deep, wide and tall pile of money.  Besides: as human population dwindled, inflation would be thru the roof.
>
> However... the entire race would not go extinct.  If you think it thru, we have existing populations which carry the societal and cultural value of reproduction.  These eschew alternate paths to gratification.  Examples would be the Amish, the Hutterites, much of modern Africa perhaps.  Those places are mostly immune: they would continue to survive and grow in the event that much or most of technologically advanced society opts out of biological reproduction.
>
> Hey cool, I could create a sexbot, make a buttload, then invest in Pennsylvania farmland.  That investment would hold value as most of humankind withered and died.
>
> On a fun side note, if you have not seen the SciFi-comedy film S1m0ne, which kinda along this thread, I can highly recommend it.  Al Pacino in a comedy role is a bit jarring, but he does a great straight-man.
>
> spike  (no relation to Jonze)
> _______________________________________________


It is a bit more than gratification though.
Next year's model will be a Scarlett Johansson bot that will also do
your tax returns, manage your investments and discuss the Theory of
Relativity with you. You know accountants are irresistible!  :)

Humanity is doomed.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Oct 28 21:33:56 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:33:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgHGJ_tW1pfHpTvK_9uBd5TY-_Bfg79y6RWjWsdJLAXZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003001da09df$b43f1140$1cbd33c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgHGJ_tW1pfHpTvK_9uBd5TY-_Bfg79y6RWjWsdJLAXZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801da09e6$7551bcb0$5ff53610$@rainier66.com>


...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 at 21:48, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>... Upon realizing this, my own enthusiasm for trying to create such a
device cooled, even if I could earn a buttload.  Causing the extinction of
humankind was too high a price to pay, even for a really deep, wide and tall
pile of money...
> _______________________________________________


>...It is a bit more than gratification though.
Next year's model will be a Scarlett Johansson bot that will also do your
tax returns, manage your investments and discuss the Theory of Relativity
with you. You know accountants are irresistible!  :)

Humanity is doomed.

BillK

_______________________________________________


All along we thought it would be bombs or lab viruses.

But in any case BillK, I think not.  Humanity will survive that threat and
even the other two, in some places on the planet, probably sub-Saharan
Africa.  We radiated out from there once, we can do it again.

spike




From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sun Oct 29 18:07:23 2023
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:07:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] People are speaking with ChatGPT for hours
In-Reply-To: <28FD5109-775E-40AA-B31C-431CEFE9E576@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <28FD5109-775E-40AA-B31C-431CEFE9E576@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <514EB133-338B-4451-B8A8-A8AA2DB28BC2@alumni.virginia.edu>

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 30 22:12:04 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:12:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How AGI superintelligence will happen
Message-ID: <CAL_armiXi2kWxeb-viyCirCn7Mgw74wAUUyJqXs89aDGY67aXg@mail.gmail.com>

I've just read a comment from an interview -
<https://thebulletin.org/2023/10/ai-godfather-yoshua-bengio-we-need-a-humanity-defense-organization/>

I hadn't really realised it before, but the comment is pretty obvious
once you read it.
Quote:
Geoff Hinton argued that digital computing technologies have
fundamental advantages over brains. In other words, even if we only
figure out the principles that are sufficient to explain most of our
intelligence and put that in machines, the machines would
automatically be smarter than us because of technical things like the
ability to read huge quantities of text and integrate that much faster
than the human could?like tens of thousands or millions of times
faster.
----------------

Former Google AI researcher Geoffrey Hinton received the Turing
Award?known as the ?Nobel? of computing?for ?conceptual and
engineering breakthroughs that have made deep neural networks a
critical component of computing.?

What Hinton is saying is that if we only create the basic human-level
machine intelligence, then the inbuilt advantages that computers have
will make them much smarter than humans.

AGI might arrive rather unexpectedly...........

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 31 14:56:23 2023
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:56:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] free will
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbRgvyq1oo+cTJhNNAjdJPoiA3xi0nP67nu7KYgtM0KVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does a person 100% of the time perform the most probable response in the
circumstances?

billw
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 31 15:36:58 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 08:36:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] interesting legal development
Message-ID: <00d501da0c10$1690cf50$43b26df0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

We have in the past coupla decades developed PRC, polymerase chain reaction,
which allows 60 dollar DNA kits where consumers can find out a list of their
relatives who have also done the kits with that company.  It also allows
anyone to collect an unknown prole's DNA, find out the prole's relatives who
have done DNA kits.  Since there is so much genealogy information available
on the internet, it is easy enough to figure out to a short list of suspects
the identity of the prole.

 

In a currently ongoing legal case, a mass murderer left behind a sheath with
his DNA on it.  The constables used PCR and figured out who it was
whodunnit.  But. since it is legally untested. they didn't use that evidence
to catch the perp.  They figured out whodunnit, then knew exactly how to get
the evidence they needed.  They followed him, caught him, based the arrest
warrant on other information but did not mention the DNA match.

 

The prosecution doesn't need the DNA evidence to convict the guy, they have
plenty of other evidence, which they found because they had identified him
using DNA, which in itself in inadmissible evidence.

 

So now. the really hardcore civil libertarians among us are arguing that
doing the PRC and using a commercial company on his DNA violates his 4th and
5th amendment rights.  Reasoning: it represents testimony against himself,
and unwitting testimony from "witnesses" who would be his second and third
cousins whose genetic similarity to him was what got him caught.

 

So the argument becomes a little like the bad guy at the end of the Scooby
Doo cartoons, where the bad guy now says "I woulda gotten away with it too,
had it not been for that meddling DNA!"

 

Whaddya think, especially USians?  Is that a legitimate argument?  I am
leaning toward saying DNA evidence is equivalent to video of the bad guy,
which is generally admissible by prosecutors in the USA, and is generally
allowed as a means of catching the perp, but is generally rejected as
evidence in the UK.

 

spike  

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Oct 31 16:37:35 2023
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:37:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] interesting legal development
In-Reply-To: <00d501da0c10$1690cf50$43b26df0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00d501da0c10$1690cf50$43b26df0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTSr8Y3dg-0WcPcvNNgLc72XKb=QxE5c4y3ZK7-E9w7vw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 8:38?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> In a currently ongoing legal case, a mass murderer left behind a sheath
> with his DNA on it.  The constables used PCR and figured out who it was
> whodunnit.  But? since it is legally untested?
>

By "legally untested" do you mean its admissibility has yet to be tested in
court?  The court would surely agree that the PCR test itself has certainly
been performed.


> they didn?t use that evidence to catch the perp.  They figured out
> whodunnit, then knew exactly how to get the evidence they needed.  They
> followed him, caught him, based the arrest warrant on other information but
> did not mention the DNA match.
>
>
>
> The prosecution doesn?t need the DNA evidence to convict the guy, they
> have plenty of other evidence, which they found because they had identified
> him using DNA, which in itself in inadmissible evidence.
>
>
>
> So now? the really hardcore civil libertarians among us are arguing that
> doing the PRC and using a commercial company on his DNA violates his 4th
> and 5th amendment rights.  Reasoning: it represents testimony against
> himself, and unwitting testimony from ?witnesses? who would be his second
> and third cousins whose genetic similarity to him was what got him caught.
>
>
>
> So the argument becomes a little like the bad guy at the end of the Scooby
> Doo cartoons, where the bad guy now says ?I woulda gotten away with it too,
> had it not been for that meddling DNA!?
>
>
>
> Whaddya think, especially USians?  Is that a legitimate argument?  I am
> leaning toward saying DNA evidence is equivalent to video of the bad guy,
> which is generally admissible by prosecutors in the USA, and is generally
> allowed as a means of catching the perp, but is generally rejected as
> evidence in the UK.
>

 I would lean toward admitting it.  It's passive evidence, much like the
video or traditional fingerprints.  The right to not self-incriminate is
with regard to actively given evidence.  Going through one's public
statements on social media is not the same as interrogating someone.  The
only question is whether there is a reasonable expectation of privacy about
one's genetic information when one gives it to a company for non-medical
reasons, and increasingly there does not seem to be.  (For one, the company
will often let random strangers see if their DNA matches yours.)
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 31 16:50:14 2023
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 16:50:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] free will
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbRgvyq1oo+cTJhNNAjdJPoiA3xi0nP67nu7KYgtM0KVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbRgvyq1oo+cTJhNNAjdJPoiA3xi0nP67nu7KYgtM0KVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgx5VhkSGL-A=Z3CY5-4QH9pXa=cWHtm_JbpjNPuewkPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 at 14:59, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Does a person 100% of the time perform the most probable response in the circumstances?
> billw
> _______________________________________________


Scientist, after decades of study, concludes: We don't have free will
by Corinne Purtill, Los Angeles Times        October 19, 2023

<https://phys.org/news/2023-10-scientist-decades-dont-free.html>

Quotes:
After more than 40 years studying humans and other primates, Sapolsky
has reached the conclusion that virtually all human behavior is as far
beyond our conscious control as the convulsions of a seizure, the
division of cells or the beating of our hearts.

"The world is really screwed up and made much, much more unfair by the
fact that we reward people and punish people for things they have no
control over," Sapolsky said. "We've got no free will. Stop
attributing stuff to us that isn't there."
----------------

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Oct 31 16:59:51 2023
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:59:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] interesting legal development
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTSr8Y3dg-0WcPcvNNgLc72XKb=QxE5c4y3ZK7-E9w7vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d501da0c10$1690cf50$43b26df0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTSr8Y3dg-0WcPcvNNgLc72XKb=QxE5c4y3ZK7-E9w7vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011b01da0c1b$aa4945f0$fedbd1d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] interesting legal development

 

On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 8:38?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

In a currently ongoing legal case, a mass murderer left behind a sheath with his DNA on it.  The constables used PCR and figured out who it was whodunnit.  But? since it is legally untested?

 

>?By "legally untested" do you mean its admissibility has yet to be tested in court?  The court would surely agree that the PCR test itself has certainly been performed?

 

Ja, it hasn?t been used in court as evidence.  Relevant side info: AncestryDNA is the biggest commercial site with the most users and most existing family trees.  This helps if you have an unknown DNA sample.  It leads to a group of possibilities, sometimes as specific as brothers, but more commonly a group including first and second cousins.  So the constables can get a list, find out who they are, where they live etc.  The murders happened at a university in Idaho.  They get a group of second cousins, go right down the list: that guy is a dentist in Florida, that guy is a roofer in Tennessee, female, female, teacher in Missouri, female, graduate student in Idaho?  hmmm? insurance salesman in West Virginia, etc.  They go thru the coupla dozen, eliminate female suspects because? women don?t usually do stuff like this, and hey, lets go have a chat with this Idaho grad student.

 

Once they know whodunnit but need evidence, it is pretty easy to get.  They watch the guy, he flees, they follow him, he knows damn well he is being followed, makes mistakes, they eventually have enough on him to arrest him.

 

Now the case goes to the court, but? the prosecution does not reveal why they knew it was him.

 

So the question becomes? Is the prosecution required to reveal that they caught him because they knew to gather evidence specifically on that guy, rather than the few thousand other students on the campus, all because he left DNA on the sheath for the knife he used to kill the four students?

 

Another question: were the defendants? 4th and 5th amendment rights violated by the use of comparative DNA?  Reasoning: when his cousins did the DNA test, they had no way of knowing they might be (in a sense) testifying in court?  If they require the prosecution to reveal, is that grounds for dismissing any evidence the prosecution found because they identified him to start with using DNA?  Or is DNA analogous to a witness who said he saw a man with broad shoulders, short hair, white, tall, running out of the apartment?  So the DNA is kind of a silent witness in a sense.  Or is it more analogous to video evidence?

 

That is a legally important question, because in US courts and definitely British courts, video evidence ranks lower than eyewitness testimony.  That played in a case where someone in London was shot in the head, didn?t die but is in a permanent vegetative state.  The bobbies caught the guy using video, followed the trail right to him, he still had the gun which matched the bullet.  But the two eyewitness accounts disagreed with the video: they said the shooter was white, which doesn?t match the guy they caught.  

 

The British courts dropped the charges.  In Britain, eyewitness accounts outrank video.

 

In the US now: we have no surviving eyewitnesses, the DNA was used to whittle down to a very short list of suspects, they followed the guy, he fled, they caught, now the case is newsworthy.

 

 

>?I would lean toward admitting it.  It's passive evidence, much like the video or traditional fingerprints.  The right to not self-incriminate is with regard to actively given evidence.  Going through one's public statements on social media is not the same as interrogating someone.  The only question is whether there is a reasonable expectation of privacy about one's genetic information when one gives it to a company for non-medical reasons, and increasingly there does not seem to be.  (For one, the company will often let random strangers see if their DNA matches yours.)

 

Ja me too Adrian.  I would argue that one gives up one?s reasonable expectation of privacy when in the act of committing mass murder.  I might go further, and rule that the prosecution is not required to turn over that DNA evidence they used to catch the perp, and allow the prosecution to proceed using only the evidence not linked to DNA.

 

spike

 

 

 

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