From postmowoods at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 04:57:20 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 21:57:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] it's not? indeed?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6OwpRftysoi4i9O361g0XtoRZWi7L9V-T-aSuajNmd6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <046001da4a28$42a46bf0$c7ed43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <53570e12-394b-459e-84f1-53dae9ad9457@protonmail.com>
 <086601da4a8b$8b079350$a116b9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5RW++6MfxA9Axa2iW-RmB+aDjKMY_ebjnKxMdy1H77Sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01da4c94$93f775b0$bbe66110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5VgwXaTfvFaoxNqvmSJ=s36V2JQ4+yJ+KSf_p8Z55HFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <080501da4cad$c81bcfd0$58536f70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6bUChyU008ms6gqs1WvP3DnemLAchQPdRNwRjTkhn0Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj0eEVeYCSA_NUb41JJ033-L=vtg1PdJywyt=3VW-eMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ab9c3a08-4f70-e826-b600-b62eb73fb77e@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armi1Yk3QiH-xP4mTUcgM1s=7SpVpDHacmTSeokxapL861Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB43Fsju9fHMzoydDsWPweS16J5EKEtF=4gJeD=0YS=RXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <25c901da4d65$e2adfd60$a809f820$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6OwpRftysoi4i9O361g0XtoRZWi7L9V-T-aSuajNmd6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnC0_=0QN1JSFue34nxYcVq3TZhsy5z1B0NscU0V3ScF8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 1:06?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > We saw dissenting views squelched on the internet, labeled disinformation with the implication that disinformation is false information.  Now we know disinformation, misinformation and malinformation might be true.
>
> Please be specific about this accusation.  For a fact, I don't know
> how information can be squelched given that anyone can post anything
> they want on FB.  Would it be squelched if I posted a claim that
> COVID-19 was brought to the US by little green aliens?

I can't say definitively whether or not Covid was leaked from the lab
and I doubt anyone can. I did see an Australian news production where
Donald Trump was interviewed and said he believed it came from the lab
based upon secret stuff he couldn't share publicly. The Donald is
honesty challenged at best. However, it has seemed likely since
January of 2020 to me based upon the fact that the virology lab is
proximate to the initial outbreak and the bats in question live far
away.

All that being said, I can be more definitive about the Facebook
response to the lab leak hypothesis.

The following is partially based upon the following three articles
published at the time.
https://www.wionews.com/technology/facebook-lifts-ban-on-lab-leak-posts-as-us-investigates-origin-of-coronavirus-387899
https://techxplore.com/news/2021-05-facebook-reverses-wont-lab-virus.html
https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/27/facebook-is-no-longer-censoring-the-lab-leak-theory/

Facebook initially limited and blocked posts that promoted the lab
leak theory of the COVID-19 virus during the early days of the
pandemic. This action was part of their broader policy to suppress
what they considered to be misinformation about the pandemic. The
policy included banning posts suggesting that COVID-19 was a man-made
virus or had escaped from a lab.

However, Facebook reversed this policy on May 26, 2021 and lifted the
ban on posts discussing the lab leak theory as a possible origin of
the coronavirus. This change in policy occurred in light of ongoing
investigations into the virus's origins and evolving discussions in
the scientific community and the media about the possibility of a lab
leak. The reversal also followed new intelligence and public
statements that lent some credence to this theory.

So, while the lab leak itself is controversial, the Facebook response
to the lab leak hypothesis is very well documented.

-Kelly


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 05:03:34 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 22:03:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] qm using ten hundred words
In-Reply-To: <007301da5478$d96b5670$8c420350$@rainier66.com>
References: <007301da5478$d96b5670$8c420350$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnA7MCZAkLRW+KGLPzTOiYys9XgGqELDETfygZj=9x-LKw@mail.gmail.com>

The best way to find the truth is to pick the one story that is most simple.

On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 12:09?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I wrote about a thing found by a man which let humans go forward much, using only the ten hundred most used words.  It was hard:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> A man found that we can not know how fast a thing is going and right where it is at the same time. This truth was named for that man, who is very important. This truth is used to make our stuff which works like it is thinking and does work to help us. This truth is used to make big hurt things we can drop on bad guys if they hurt us first, so they will not hurt us. It is used to make some of the power that comes out of the wall. It is even used in stuff that is used to make us feel good at the building where the people work who make people feel better, that building where people go who do not feel good. Our world today is like our world today because we found out about this truth that important man found. We would not have all the good things we have without that truth.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here you go, try it:
>
>
>
> https://splasho.com/upgoer5/
>
>
>
> long thing with point at the end
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb  1 05:57:01 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 21:57:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] it's not? indeed?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnC0_=0QN1JSFue34nxYcVq3TZhsy5z1B0NscU0V3ScF8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <046001da4a28$42a46bf0$c7ed43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <53570e12-394b-459e-84f1-53dae9ad9457@protonmail.com>
 <086601da4a8b$8b079350$a116b9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5RW++6MfxA9Axa2iW-RmB+aDjKMY_ebjnKxMdy1H77Sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01da4c94$93f775b0$bbe66110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5VgwXaTfvFaoxNqvmSJ=s36V2JQ4+yJ+KSf_p8Z55HFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <080501da4cad$c81bcfd0$58536f70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6bUChyU008ms6gqs1WvP3DnemLAchQPdRNwRjTkhn0Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj0eEVeYCSA_NUb41JJ033-L=vtg1PdJywyt=3VW-eMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ab9c3a08-4f70-e826-b600-b62eb73fb77e@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armi1Yk3QiH-xP4mTUcgM1s=7SpVpDHacmTSeokxapL861Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB43Fsju9fHMzoydDsWPweS16J5EKEtF=4gJeD=0YS=RXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <25c901da4d65$e2adfd60$a809f820$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6OwpRftysoi4i9O361g0XtoRZWi7L9V-T-aSuajNmd6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnC0_=0QN1JSFue34nxYcVq3TZhsy5z1B0NscU0V3ScF8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401da54d3$7a49f1f0$6eddd5d0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] it's not? indeed?

On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 1:06?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > We saw dissenting views squelched on the internet, labeled disinformation with the implication that disinformation is false information.  Now we know disinformation, misinformation and malinformation might be true...


>...So, while the lab leak itself is controversial, the Facebook response to the lab leak hypothesis is very well documented.

-Kelly

_______________________________________________


Ja, Kelly I wasn't concerned about FaceBook or the approximately 14 grandmas who are still active there.  I was far more interested in how information was handled on TwitterX, which has huge exposure.  They were shadow-banning and outright banning in some cases, for posting about the possible lab-leak origin of COVID.  

Do let me be clear on this.  I oppose false information, and I am cool with banning false information.  But not for banning misinformation, malinformation or disinformation, so long as it is true or might be.

Note that shadow banning misinformation which turned out to be true or plausible is what motivated Elon Musk to buy Twitter and convert it to X.

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 06:21:15 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 22:21:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] it's not? indeed?
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnC0_=0QN1JSFue34nxYcVq3TZhsy5z1B0NscU0V3ScF8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <046001da4a28$42a46bf0$c7ed43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <53570e12-394b-459e-84f1-53dae9ad9457@protonmail.com>
 <086601da4a8b$8b079350$a116b9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5RW++6MfxA9Axa2iW-RmB+aDjKMY_ebjnKxMdy1H77Sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01da4c94$93f775b0$bbe66110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5VgwXaTfvFaoxNqvmSJ=s36V2JQ4+yJ+KSf_p8Z55HFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <080501da4cad$c81bcfd0$58536f70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6bUChyU008ms6gqs1WvP3DnemLAchQPdRNwRjTkhn0Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj0eEVeYCSA_NUb41JJ033-L=vtg1PdJywyt=3VW-eMeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <ab9c3a08-4f70-e826-b600-b62eb73fb77e@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armi1Yk3QiH-xP4mTUcgM1s=7SpVpDHacmTSeokxapL861Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB43Fsju9fHMzoydDsWPweS16J5EKEtF=4gJeD=0YS=RXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <25c901da4d65$e2adfd60$a809f820$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6OwpRftysoi4i9O361g0XtoRZWi7L9V-T-aSuajNmd6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnC0_=0QN1JSFue34nxYcVq3TZhsy5z1B0NscU0V3ScF8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7FzrOzYSy+SfoEJGCShZE_KzMOHZbdJ-9280vHE5cm8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 8:58?PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

snip

> I can't say definitively whether or not Covid was leaked from the lab
> and I doubt anyone can.

I agree, but it is illogical, especially an intentional leak.

> I did see an Australian news production where
> Donald Trump was interviewed and said he believed it came from the lab
> based upon secret stuff he couldn't share publicly. The Donald is
> honesty challenged at best.

As you say.

> However, it has seemed likely since
> January of 2020 to me based upon the fact that the virology lab is
> proximate to the initial outbreak and the bats in question live far
> away.

It was quite a few miles, but like the first spillover, there was an
intermediate host involved, probably raccoon dogs so the question of
where the bats lived is irrelevant.

> All that being said, I can be more definitive about the Facebook
> response to the lab leak hypothesis.
>
> The following is partially based upon the following three articles
> published at the time.
> https://www.wionews.com/technology/facebook-lifts-ban-on-lab-leak-posts-as-us-investigates-origin-of-coronavirus-387899
> https://techxplore.com/news/2021-05-facebook-reverses-wont-lab-virus.html
> https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/05/27/facebook-is-no-longer-censoring-the-lab-leak-theory/
>
> Facebook initially limited and blocked posts that promoted the lab
> leak theory of the COVID-19 virus during the early days of the
> pandemic. This action was part of their broader policy to suppress
> what they considered to be misinformation about the pandemic. The
> policy included banning posts suggesting that COVID-19 was a man-made
> virus or had escaped from a lab.

At that time, and likely to this day, human technology is not up to a
man-made virus.  That being the case, it is exceedingly unlikely to
have existed much less to have escaped from a lab.

Now humans *can* modify viruses.  We know the Covid virus can be much
more infectious because natural selection has made it that way.  If it
was modified in a lab, they did a piss poor job.

> However, Facebook reversed this policy on May 26, 2021 and lifted the
> ban on posts discussing the lab leak theory as a possible origin of
> the coronavirus. This change in policy occurred in light of ongoing
> investigations into the virus's origins and evolving discussions in
> the scientific community and the media about the possibility of a lab
> leak. The reversal also followed new intelligence and public
> statements that lent some credence to this theory.

I understand the technology involved and give no credence to the theory at all.

> So, while the lab leak itself is controversial, the Facebook response
> to the lab leak hypothesis is very well documented.

When FB policy determines "truth" we are in a sad state.

Keith

> -Kelly
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  2 16:44:33 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 08:44:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] babylon bee on musk's neuralink
Message-ID: <008301da55f7$19bbc4b0$4d334e10$@rainier66.com>

 

This explains a few things.  Musk secretly planted one of these things in me
years ago:

 

https://babylonbee.com/news/10-newly-discovered-side-effects-of-neuralink

 

It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240202/a5d07a5f/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  2 19:01:59 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 11:01:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] unifying theories
In-Reply-To: <CAJvaNPm+MFJTp1gssLxnWff4sOUwHP4iXan6PpWXBPH-00Yf+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJvaNPmccT0wRLZiMBTWMQSXP60bGS7fFz70fOtbxkS2poDp6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgx3aOv6fYiFttTqsv_BSGKXYtv4Z8ydaVGfkmPaTaW1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPmQBL5JeFfAjySsGJTGQZGBHfGBkmxz40-XURbK1K4G4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjNeS+RaUkoq1j8YkLctacffqJ-JK8HXbcSRcZ=HM8xFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkj_qxzefov8Waj4u3FnjyFEWF2LirS+NK1Dp0NNDR1qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi3sPDH-bdxoF2Br4DEo4wTH45B-a5xHN232k_e2mpSTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNP==_3gbYd40u1OtpVDMaUJJmPy5u-N5j0YWA6LmfhWTTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUiUsbxp1sRmmLN3TgqX_5yh-KCv_agAuOK5oP00-K6cmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkExEt_LnGSudUjds8HBhtsjbcUZ8KJqRpVhWHV5=iziw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjG+Sz2ms_tRZDQZYhF7=Xt78EYdY0OuBGRiwFEStHO3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnng_QDou5X4MKt6hWYufHW5EjxkH1q4N9y9ZnyJvCMqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPmEzFW+-FqGFiF=062_Kg=Y6Dy6rf71T6fq+ew4RhA29A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUibWt_Wf6q4bF-SxUnsUjvxdckAo1N-825fLOxMR8X+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnqWjusEUEqSgovkH_W9yC8_7zvrZ5FvKLywHKjjGEYTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkg5K5B90_mw2jx+U49Wf33FR6a qojf4bi=g3-nP5pe=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNP=B0uLzJ60LH_2swSjaSJWsT7_0abjYm4yThVTd3A9k8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPm+MFJTp1gssLxnWff4sOUwHP4iXan6PpWXBPH-00Yf+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601da560a$4d53a500$e7faef00$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Of the fields of science I follow, my favorite it astronomy.  It is a great time to be alive if one follows astronomy.

 

The field of science that has undergone the biggest advances in recent years is probably virology, but astronomy has found a lotta cool new stuff as a result of the mind-blowing results from the LIGO experiment, detecting gravity waves.  That research led to changes in the theory of how the heavier-than-iron elements formed.  Check this:



https://www.ancient-code.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Awesome-periodic-table.jpg

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240202/a348235a/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 20:50:48 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:50:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [TIQ] unifying theories
In-Reply-To: <00d601da560a$4d53a500$e7faef00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJvaNPmccT0wRLZiMBTWMQSXP60bGS7fFz70fOtbxkS2poDp6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUgx3aOv6fYiFttTqsv_BSGKXYtv4Z8ydaVGfkmPaTaW1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPmQBL5JeFfAjySsGJTGQZGBHfGBkmxz40-XURbK1K4G4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjNeS+RaUkoq1j8YkLctacffqJ-JK8HXbcSRcZ=HM8xFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkj_qxzefov8Waj4u3FnjyFEWF2LirS+NK1Dp0NNDR1qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUi3sPDH-bdxoF2Br4DEo4wTH45B-a5xHN232k_e2mpSTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNP==_3gbYd40u1OtpVDMaUJJmPy5u-N5j0YWA6LmfhWTTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUiUsbxp1sRmmLN3TgqX_5yh-KCv_agAuOK5oP00-K6cmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPkExEt_LnGSudUjds8HBhtsjbcUZ8KJqRpVhWHV5=iziw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUjG+Sz2ms_tRZDQZYhF7=Xt78EYdY0OuBGRiwFEStHO3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnng_QDou5X4MKt6hWYufHW5EjxkH1q4N9y9ZnyJvCMqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPmEzFW+-FqGFiF=062_Kg=Y6Dy6rf71T6fq+ew4RhA29A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUibWt_Wf6q4bF-SxUnsUjvxdckAo1N-825fLOxMR8X+0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPnqWjusEUEqSgovkH_W9yC8_7zvrZ5FvKLywHKjjGEYTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNP=B0uLzJ60LH_2swSjaSJWsT7_0abjYm4yThVTd3A9k8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvaNPm+MFJTp1gssLxnWff4sOUwHP4iXan6PpWXBPH-00Yf+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d601da560a$4d53a500$e7faef00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjJ0MptECK29bYP1OHqRRG9k8nTedLZfd8jZdPmb04=MA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 19:04, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Of the fields of science I follow, my favorite it astronomy.  It is a great time to be alive if one follows astronomy.
>
> The field of science that has undergone the biggest advances in recent years is probably virology, but astronomy has found a lotta cool new stuff as a result of the mind-blowing results from the LIGO experiment, detecting gravity waves.  That research led to changes in the theory of how the heavier-than-iron elements formed.  Check this:
>
> https://www.ancient-code.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Awesome-periodic-table.jpg
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


Ethan Siegel explained this in more detail in a Big Think article in
2017 (and included the same diagram).
<https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/the-scientific-story-of-how-each-element-was-made/>
Quote:
Starts With A Bang ? June 12, 2017
The scientific story of how each element was made
Ethan Siegel

Think the periodic table is complicated? Now learn how each element in
it was created.
________________________________

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 21:17:36 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 21:17:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist ChatGPT4
Message-ID: <CAL_armi-tCPs1Utcmi+ymEyRT7iar7uiyAE5w4kjwKQG7BNCTw@mail.gmail.com>

GeoMindGPT: Navigating the Convergence of Human and Artificial Minds
in the Cybernetic Era
by Elizabeth Titovskaya   Posted 24 Jan 2024

<https://www.ecstadelic.net/e_news/geomindgpt-navigating-the-convergence-of-human-minds-and-machines-in-the-cybernetic-era>
Quotes:
GeoMindGPT, a customized version of ChatGPT, powered by GPT-4, is
pioneering the frontier of AI-assisted understanding of complex
scientific and philosophical concepts with a special focus on Global
Superintelligence, Technological Singularity, Transhumanism &
Posthumanism, Consciousness Studies, Quantum Gravity, Simulation
Metaphysics.

GeoMindGPT is more than just an AI; it?s a portal to understanding the
complex ideas and scientific models of the most intriguing minds of
our time, such as Alex M. Vikoulov, Ray Kurzweil, Nick Bostrom. By
blending cutting-edge AI technology with deep philosophical insights,
GeoMindGPT offers a unique opportunity to explore the future of
humanity and the universe through the lens of visionary futurists and
brilliant researchers.
--------------------------

This looks like a useful development.
Unfortunately, it is not free as it requires a subscription to ChatGPT Plus.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 22:04:58 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 16:04:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] another health dilemma
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbsuHnCZp1tPR8i6hhpJxwQr+7QiuL=h=qCKWMZegNz-w@mail.gmail.com>

An Ocean ofAir, by Gabrielle Walker, a chemist,is really excellent.  But...

She says that taking in more antioxidants may interfere with body's own
production of them.  Now what?  bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240202/d1fc1366/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 22:46:20 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 22:46:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] another health dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbsuHnCZp1tPR8i6hhpJxwQr+7QiuL=h=qCKWMZegNz-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbsuHnCZp1tPR8i6hhpJxwQr+7QiuL=h=qCKWMZegNz-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj3U0=YCLpC_w=H=peRX94OacaU5PjaohU1kW07uC3+4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 22:07, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> An Ocean ofAir, by Gabrielle Walker, a chemist,is really excellent.  But...
> She says that taking in more antioxidants may interfere with body's own production of them.  Now what?  bill w
> _______________________________________________


The chatbots disagree. Though you have to check they are not lying!  :)

Best answer (with references) -

Consuming more antioxidants does not interfere with the body?s own production.

Antioxidants are compounds that help neutralize harmful molecules
known as free radicals, which can cause damage to cells and contribute
to various diseases. The body produces its own antioxidants, but they
can also be obtained from a variety of foods, such as fruits,
vegetables, nuts, and whole grains. Consuming more antioxidants from
food or supplements does not interfere with the body?s natural
production of antioxidants. In fact, a diet rich in antioxidants can
complement the body?s own antioxidant production and provide
additional protection against oxidative stress.

Antioxidants and Their Role in the Body

Antioxidants are essential for maintaining the body?s overall health
and well-being. They work by neutralizing free radicals, which are
highly reactive molecules that can damage cells and contribute to
aging and various diseases, including cancer, heart disease, and
neurodegenerative disorders. The body naturally produces its own
antioxidants, such as glutathione, catalase, and superoxide dismutase,
to counteract the effects of free radicals.

Dietary Sources of Antioxidants

In addition to the body?s endogenous production of antioxidants,
individuals can obtain these beneficial compounds from their diet.
Fruits and vegetables are particularly rich sources of antioxidants,
including vitamins C and E, beta-carotene, and other phytochemicals.
Other dietary sources of antioxidants include nuts, seeds, whole
grains, and certain beverages such as green tea and coffee.

Complementing the Body?s Antioxidant Production

Consuming a diet high in antioxidant-rich foods or taking antioxidant
supplements does not interfere with the body?s natural production of
these compounds. Instead, it can complement the body?s endogenous
antioxidant system by providing additional support in neutralizing
free radicals. This synergistic effect can help enhance the overall
antioxidant capacity of the body and reduce oxidative stress.

Conclusion

In summary, consuming more antioxidants from dietary sources or
supplements does not interfere with the body?s own production of these
essential compounds. Instead, it can provide added support in
combating oxidative stress and protecting against various diseases
associated with free radical damage.

Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:

Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health: This source provides
evidence-based information on nutrition and its impact on health. It
offers comprehensive insights into the role of antioxidants in the
diet and their effects on overall well-being.
National Institutes of Health (NIH): As a leading authority on
biomedical research and public health, NIH offers valuable resources
on antioxidants and their impact on human health. Its publications
provide authoritative information on dietary antioxidants and their
effects on the body.
Mayo Clinic: Known for its expertise in medical research and patient
care, Mayo Clinic offers reliable information on nutrition and dietary
supplements. Its resources provide insights into the role of
antioxidants in promoting health and wellness.

These sources were selected for their credibility, expertise in
nutrition science, and commitment to providing evidence-based
information on antioxidants and their effects on the body.

---------------------------

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 02:17:46 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] another health dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj3U0=YCLpC_w=H=peRX94OacaU5PjaohU1kW07uC3+4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbsuHnCZp1tPR8i6hhpJxwQr+7QiuL=h=qCKWMZegNz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj3U0=YCLpC_w=H=peRX94OacaU5PjaohU1kW07uC3+4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZHb11JzP8P8Lu7Ld2KXybA8tvV4+75+0G0_5b3B113Lg@mail.gmail.com>

That's good to know, but I"ll bet that we are pissing a lot of
antioxidants.  But possibly some fat-soluble ones are stored.  From a
generative AI:

Yes, some antioxidants are stored in the body. For example, fat-soluble
antioxidants can be stored, but too many can build up and become
toxic. Antioxidants
should be consumed in moderation, and high-dose supplements should never be
taken without a doctor's supervision.bill w

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 4:48?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 22:07, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > An Ocean ofAir, by Gabrielle Walker, a chemist,is really excellent.
> But...
> > She says that taking in more antioxidants may interfere with body's own
> production of them.  Now what?  bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> The chatbots disagree. Though you have to check they are not lying!  :)
>
> Best answer (with references) -
>
> Consuming more antioxidants does not interfere with the body?s own
> production.
>
> Antioxidants are compounds that help neutralize harmful molecules
> known as free radicals, which can cause damage to cells and contribute
> to various diseases. The body produces its own antioxidants, but they
> can also be obtained from a variety of foods, such as fruits,
> vegetables, nuts, and whole grains. Consuming more antioxidants from
> food or supplements does not interfere with the body?s natural
> production of antioxidants. In fact, a diet rich in antioxidants can
> complement the body?s own antioxidant production and provide
> additional protection against oxidative stress.
>
> Antioxidants and Their Role in the Body
>
> Antioxidants are essential for maintaining the body?s overall health
> and well-being. They work by neutralizing free radicals, which are
> highly reactive molecules that can damage cells and contribute to
> aging and various diseases, including cancer, heart disease, and
> neurodegenerative disorders. The body naturally produces its own
> antioxidants, such as glutathione, catalase, and superoxide dismutase,
> to counteract the effects of free radicals.
>
> Dietary Sources of Antioxidants
>
> In addition to the body?s endogenous production of antioxidants,
> individuals can obtain these beneficial compounds from their diet.
> Fruits and vegetables are particularly rich sources of antioxidants,
> including vitamins C and E, beta-carotene, and other phytochemicals.
> Other dietary sources of antioxidants include nuts, seeds, whole
> grains, and certain beverages such as green tea and coffee.
>
> Complementing the Body?s Antioxidant Production
>
> Consuming a diet high in antioxidant-rich foods or taking antioxidant
> supplements does not interfere with the body?s natural production of
> these compounds. Instead, it can complement the body?s endogenous
> antioxidant system by providing additional support in neutralizing
> free radicals. This synergistic effect can help enhance the overall
> antioxidant capacity of the body and reduce oxidative stress.
>
> Conclusion
>
> In summary, consuming more antioxidants from dietary sources or
> supplements does not interfere with the body?s own production of these
> essential compounds. Instead, it can provide added support in
> combating oxidative stress and protecting against various diseases
> associated with free radical damage.
>
> Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:
>
> Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health: This source provides
> evidence-based information on nutrition and its impact on health. It
> offers comprehensive insights into the role of antioxidants in the
> diet and their effects on overall well-being.
> National Institutes of Health (NIH): As a leading authority on
> biomedical research and public health, NIH offers valuable resources
> on antioxidants and their impact on human health. Its publications
> provide authoritative information on dietary antioxidants and their
> effects on the body.
> Mayo Clinic: Known for its expertise in medical research and patient
> care, Mayo Clinic offers reliable information on nutrition and dietary
> supplements. Its resources provide insights into the role of
> antioxidants in promoting health and wellness.
>
> These sources were selected for their credibility, expertise in
> nutrition science, and commitment to providing evidence-based
> information on antioxidants and their effects on the body.
>
> ---------------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240202/ad362825/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 00:53:38 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2024 16:53:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Science_Magazine_-_Covid=E2=80=99s_cold_cousins?=
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5rTu-SwvRPZ-_HkqYrHPRuyP0_eNph2AncxPkGPBVoKg@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone cares about the wider background of COVID-19, this is a
fascinating article.  If it is behind a paywall, let me know and I can
put up the whole thing.

DESCRIPTION:
Over a few weeks in November 1889, a respiratory disease attacked half
the residents of St. Petersburg, Russia, and it soon began to race
through Europe and the rest of the world.

LINK:
https://www.sciencemagazinedigital.org/sciencemagazine/library/item/12_january_2024/4164456/

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 03:32:11 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2024 19:32:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtropolis=5D_Science_Magazine_-_Covid?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_cold_cousins?=
In-Reply-To: <CAAFA0qoU9yWf9TsvYSbDG70pT6qOawhEiaR4Q5F-gx30RUUdSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rTu-SwvRPZ-_HkqYrHPRuyP0_eNph2AncxPkGPBVoKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFA0qoU9yWf9TsvYSbDG70pT6qOawhEiaR4Q5F-gx30RUUdSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4gVmU4sV4FbXjEKe06qvh_13zoo1aan=eLjkqQmTb9TQ@mail.gmail.com>

The Wikipedia article does not support rhinovirus being in the
coronavirus family.

Keith

On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 5:04?PM Lawrence Crowell
<goldenfieldquaternions at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The rhinovirus of the common cold is a coronavirus.
>
> LC
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 6:54?PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If anyone cares about the wider background of COVID-19, this is a
>> fascinating article.  If it is behind a paywall, let me know and I can
>> put up the whole thing.
>>
>> DESCRIPTION:
>> Over a few weeks in November 1889, a respiratory disease attacked half
>> the residents of St. Petersburg, Russia, and it soon began to race
>> through Europe and the rest of the world.
>>
>> LINK:
>> https://www.sciencemagazinedigital.org/sciencemagazine/library/item/12_january_2024/4164456/
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAPiwVB5rTu-SwvRPZ-_HkqYrHPRuyP0_eNph2AncxPkGPBVoKg%40mail.gmail.com.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "extropolis" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to extropolis+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/extropolis/CAAFA0qoU9yWf9TsvYSbDG70pT6qOawhEiaR4Q5F-gx30RUUdSQ%40mail.gmail.com.


From john at ziaspace.com  Mon Feb  5 04:05:49 2024
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 04:05:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] META: mail server changes
Message-ID: <61577ea9-6f11-80d4-48c0-232b7408e424@ziaspace.com>

Hi,

Microsoft is a big, dumb company. Because I reported literally thousands of 
spam from their networks to them, they blocked our servers. It's crazy that 
such stupidity is now normal and expected.

I'm having to change the delivery server because Microsoft possesses no no way 
by which non-paying humans can communicate with them. Some messages in the last 
day or two may not have been delivered to Outlook / Hotmail addresses, and a 
message or two while making changes in the last hour might've been rejected. 
Please retry if this was the case.

Sorry about this! It'll all be in order soon.

Thanks,
John Klos


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 06:23:47 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2024 23:23:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sex robots go to court
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg+pdu6zJV+r+Uy2G1w-brjAEHe6tuG+FVnxZhe8kVKjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg+pdu6zJV+r+Uy2G1w-brjAEHe6tuG+FVnxZhe8kVKjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBiYByMmUiopzvP8hmw0Gu_sW0LYhmmXjuKZJ+PH0WeNg@mail.gmail.com>

If pedophiles are essentially "untreatable", then why would society
remove a method for them to deal with their predilections without
harming actual children? This makes little sense to me. I also like
the idea of the Catholic church paying the development costs for such
an appliance as part of their recompense to the world. I'd sure rather
have the pedophiles play with dolls of some kind than fucking up kid's
heads.

If you forced people to register in order to have access to such toys,
then at least we know who to go after when the neighborhood kids start
having problems or go missing.

-Kelly

On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 6:42?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Sex robots go to court: Testing the limits of privacy and sexual freedom
> by Jonathan Turley, 27 Jan 2024
>
> <https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/4432313-sex-robots-go-to-court-testing-the-limits-of-privacy-and-sexual-freedom/>
>
> Quotes:
> From a legal perspective, these sex robots are nothing more than a
> ramped up toaster with a fetching name. Even the term ?brothel? can be
> challenged. In Paris, a sex doll brothel was opened and licensed as a
> ?game center.? The analogy is based on the fact that bots, in the view
> of customers, are simply machines designed for recreation.
>
> The bots remove the alleged victim in these scenarios. No one is being
> directly harmed when someone has relations with what is essentially an
> advanced appliance.
>
> This issue becomes far more difficult, however, when the bots are
> designed to resemble children. Such devices have already been banned
> in some countries, including recently in the U.S.
>
> In the absence of a direct victim, we are left with a pure moral or
> social judgment on the private tastes and relations of adults.
>
> In the series ?Westworld,? ?host? Annie asked a reluctant guest ?if
> you can?t tell the difference, does it matter if I?m real or not??
> Legally, the answer is no. But as that difference erodes, the question
> as to whether it matters to others will grow.
> -----------------
>
> It looks like we are in for a season of moral panic, like back in the
> 60s when the pill became available and 'sexual freedom' became
> fashionable.
> Until AIDs and STDs made people reconsider. No STDs with robots, though.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 06:26:59 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2024 23:26:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electric vehicles again
In-Reply-To: <006f01da522b$14c2c0f0$3e4842d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00b001da521c$bf73cc10$3e5b6430$@rainier66.com>
 <CDFE5460-4D94-4D29-8ECB-E685329EEFD1@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <006f01da522b$14c2c0f0$3e4842d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnCmcvhqAd1zGomfhod=pcPVtsLg-PGM76CfO4oEQq2qug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 1:47?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  Henry, I don?t doubt they exist.  I only doubt the practicality of
> charging on a long road trip.
>

The same could have been said of a Model T in 1921.

-Kelly
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240204/5c8e8dcb/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 10:18:35 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:18:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?q?Science_Magazine_-_Covid=E2=80=99s_cold_cousins?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5rTu-SwvRPZ-_HkqYrHPRuyP0_eNph2AncxPkGPBVoKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rTu-SwvRPZ-_HkqYrHPRuyP0_eNph2AncxPkGPBVoKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhh5gGNEwc6txnF6gABEuZnDJDqZrtvucVU-7L1dmwH0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 at 00:56, Keith Henson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> If anyone cares about the wider background of COVID-19, this is a
> fascinating article.  If it is behind a paywall, let me know and I can
> put up the whole thing.
>
> DESCRIPTION:
> Over a few weeks in November 1889, a respiratory disease attacked half
> the residents of St. Petersburg, Russia, and it soon began to race
> through Europe and the rest of the world.
>
> LINK:
> https://www.sciencemagazinedigital.org/sciencemagazine/library/item/12_january_2024/4164456/
> _______________________________________________


This article appears to be available here:
<https://www.science.org/content/article/four-cold-causing-coronaviruses-may-provide-clues-covids-future>


BillK

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Feb  5 11:13:05 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 11:13:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] another health dilemma
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1707105960.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.3.1707105960.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <92a3486f-6fa5-472e-9b78-d53f85420258@zaiboc.net>


On 05/02/2024 04:06, BillW wrote:
> That's good to know, but I"ll bet that we are pissing a lot of 
> antioxidants. But possibly some fat-soluble ones are stored.? From a 
> generative AI:
> Yes, some antioxidants are stored in the body. For example, 
> fat-soluble antioxidants can be stored, but too many can build up and 
> become toxic. Antioxidants should be consumed in moderation, and 
> high-dose supplements should never be taken without a doctor's 
> supervision.bill w
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 4:48?PM BillK via extropy-chat 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 at 22:07, William Flynn Wallace via
>     extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > An Ocean
>     ofAir, by Gabrielle Walker, a chemist,is really excellent.? But...
>     > She says that taking in more antioxidants may interfere with
>     body's own production of them.? Now what?? bill w >
>     _______________________________________________ The chatbots
>     disagree. Though you have to check they are not lying!? :) Best
>     answer (with references) - Consuming more antioxidants does not
>     interfere with the body?s own production. Antioxidants are ...

The idea that dietary antioxidants don't affect the production of 
antioxidants by the body is just given as a bald statement here. No 
reference to any evidence, no studies quoted, no attempt at giving even 
a theoretical reason.

If any of the sources it used give any evidence, that isn't mentioned.

I don't know if Gabrielle Walker gives any reasoning for her opinion.

Chat GPT etc. seems to be very good at digging up lots of information 
related to a question, but not necessarily at figuring out what 
information it /should/ be digging up.

Looking at the other thread about 'Newspeak', the chatbot keeps 
repeating itself in slightly different words, while numbering each 
paragraph as though they were referring to different aspects.

Clearly there is still a gap of understanding.

The thing that worries me most is the tendency to use what appear to be 
tactics for blindsiding people: Quote lots of facts, seem to answer the 
question while actually avoiding it and/or answer different questions 
instead, appeal to authority, repeat the same thing several times in 
different words. I'm not saying this is deliberate of course, but it's 
interesting that they seem to have picked up these tactics from their 
training material. Perhaps we're doing it to each other more than we 
realise or intend.

To Bill w's question "Now what?", I think the answer has to be to look 
for research on whether taking in more antioxidants interferes with 
body's own production of them or not, rather than asking chatbots (of 
course, they can be useful in finding the research in the first place). 
I'm getting more and more wary of them, to be honest. Maybe the ability 
to use chatbots wisely will be an essential skill in the future, just as 
the ability to sensibly use a search engine is now.

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/ead7c5f2/attachment.htm>

From efc at swisscows.email  Mon Feb  5 12:24:58 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 13:24:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] META: mail server changes
In-Reply-To: <61577ea9-6f11-80d4-48c0-232b7408e424@ziaspace.com>
References: <61577ea9-6f11-80d4-48c0-232b7408e424@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <d8ebe6de-ee6d-4a9b-67f1-00362b8d38d0@swisscows.email>

Hello John, I'm sorry to hear that, but based on what I hear in the 
industry at large, I'm sadly not surprised.

In case you're not already done, I recommend infomaniak.com where I have 
my own company stuff and generally I've been very pleased with their 
support.

Best regards,
Daniel


On Mon, 5 Feb 2024, John Klos via extropy-chat wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Microsoft is a big, dumb company. Because I reported literally thousands of 
> spam from their networks to them, they blocked our servers. It's crazy that 
> such stupidity is now normal and expected.
>
> I'm having to change the delivery server because Microsoft possesses no no 
> way by which non-paying humans can communicate with them. Some messages in 
> the last day or two may not have been delivered to Outlook / Hotmail 
> addresses, and a message or two while making changes in the last hour 
> might've been rejected. Please retry if this was the case.
>
> Sorry about this! It'll all be in order soon.
>
> Thanks,
> John Klos
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 14:16:32 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 14:16:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] another health dilemma
In-Reply-To: <92a3486f-6fa5-472e-9b78-d53f85420258@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.3.1707105960.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <92a3486f-6fa5-472e-9b78-d53f85420258@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgkZZqphu9R_bjRqx2gSh8MvEAy+-ORmGUOGDAYPNqeYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 at 11:15, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The idea that dietary antioxidants don't affect the production of
antioxidants by the body is just given as a bald statement here. No
reference to any evidence, no studies quoted, no attempt at giving even a
theoretical reason.
>
> If any of the sources it used give any evidence, that isn't mentioned.
> I don't know if Gabrielle Walker gives any reasoning for her opinion.
>
> Chat GPT etc. seems to be very good at digging up lots of information
related to a question, but not necessarily at figuring out what information
it should be digging up.
> Looking at the other thread about 'Newspeak', the chatbot keeps repeating
itself in slightly different words, while numbering each paragraph as
though they were referring to different aspects.
>
> Clearly there is still a gap of understanding.
>
> The thing that worries me most is the tendency to use what appear to be
tactics for blindsiding people: Quote lots of facts, seem to answer the
question while actually avoiding it and/or answer different questions
instead, appeal to authority, repeat the same thing several times in
different words. I'm not saying this is deliberate of course, but it's
interesting that they seem to have picked up these tactics from their
training material. Perhaps we're doing it to each other more than we
realise or intend.
>
> To Bill w's question "Now what?", I think the answer has to be to look
for research on whether taking in more antioxidants interferes with body's
own production of them or not, rather than asking chatbots (of course, they
can be useful in finding the research in the first place). I'm getting more
and more wary of them, to be honest. Maybe the ability to use chatbots
wisely will be an essential skill in the future, just as the ability to
sensibly use a search engine is now.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________



So, *of course*, I asked a Chatbot if your criticism was valid.
It agreed!  So you must be correct! But wait, Chatbots aren't correct. This
is a non-sequitur.  :)
BillK


Request -
Is this a valid criticism of chatbots? - Chatbots seem to be very good at
digging up lots of information related to a question, but not necessarily
at figuring out what information it should be digging up.
Sometimes the chatbot keeps repeating itself in slightly different words,
while numbering each paragraph as though they were referring to different
aspects.
The thing that worries me most is the tendency to use what appear to be
tactics for blindsiding people: Quote lots of facts, seem to answer the
question while actually avoiding it and/or answer different questions
instead, appeal to authority, repeat the same thing several times in
different words. I'm not saying this is deliberate of course, but it's
interesting that they seem to have picked up these tactics from their
training material. Perhaps we're doing it to each other more than we
realise or intend.
------------------

Answer: (including references)

*Yes, this criticism of chatbots is valid.* The main concerns raised in the
criticism are:

   1.

   *Inability to determine relevant information:* Chatbots can provide a
   vast amount of information related to a question, but they may not always
   be able to identify and focus on the most pertinent information. This can
   lead to users receiving a flood of unrelated or unnecessary data, making it
   difficult for them to find the specific answer they are looking for.
   2.

   *Repetitive responses:* The criticism highlights the issue of chatbots
   repeating themselves in slightly different words, which can be frustrating
   for users. This can occur when the chatbot?s programming or algorithm is
   not sophisticated enough to recognize that it has already provided the
   requested information or when it fails to understand the user?s intent.
   3.

   *Use of tactics for misdirection:* The concern about chatbots employing
   tactics such as quoting lots of facts, seemingly answering a question while
   avoiding it, answering different questions, and appealing to authority can
   be seen as a valid criticism. These tactics may be unintentional
   consequences of the chatbot?s training or programming, but they can create
   confusion and make it difficult for users to find accurate and relevant
   information.
   4.

   *Possible influence from human interactions:* The criticism also raises
   the possibility that chatbots might have unintentionally picked up these
   tactics from human interactions, which could be a concerning aspect of
   their development and usage.

Overall, these criticisms highlight the limitations and potential drawbacks
of chatbots, emphasizing the need for continuous improvement in their
design, programming, and user experience to ensure they provide accurate,
relevant, and helpful information to users.
Web Search Results
5 results

Chatbots Are Not Sentient. Here?s How They Work.
https//www.nytimes.com ? 2023 ? 02 ? 16 ? technology ?
chatbots-explained.html
<https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/technology/chatbots-explained.html>
In June, a Google engineer, Blake Lemoine, claimed that similar chatbot
technology being tested inside Google was sentient. That's false.
[image: image.gif]
The AI bot has picked an answer for you. Here's how often it's bad.
https//www.washingtonpost.com ? technology ? 2023 ? 04 ? 13 ?
microsoft-bing-ai-chatbot-error
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/04/13/microsoft-bing-ai-chatbot-error/>
The Post tested the reliability of Microsoft's Bing AI chatbot by asking it
47 tough questions and then evaluating its sources.
[image: image.gif]
I broke the Bing chatbot's brain : r/bing
https//www.reddit.com ? r ? bing ? comments ? 110y6dh ?
i_broke_the_bing_chatbots_brain
<https://www.reddit.com/r/bing/comments/110y6dh/i_broke_the_bing_chatbots_brain/>
2K votes, 357 comments. 75K subscribers in the bing community. A subreddit
for news, tips, and discussions about Microsoft Bing.

ChatGPT produces made-up nonexistent references
https//news.ycombinator.com ? item
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33841672>
ChatGPT can be useful for casual directions in research, it is very good to
repeat hear-say and dominant methods. But it will nicely present ...

AI-assisted plagiarism? ChatGPT bot says it has an answer for that
https//www.theguardian.com ? technology ? 2022 ? dec ? 31 ?
ai-assisted-plagiarism-chatgpt-bot-says-it-has-an-answer-for-that
<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/31/ai-assisted-plagiarism-chatgpt-bot-says-it-has-an-answer-for-that>
The bot doesn't work perfectly. It has a tendency to ?hallucinate? facts
that aren't strictly true, which technology analyst Benedict Evans ...
-------------------------------

<https://youtu.be/f-_78a0HXCY>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/05e5c107/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 42 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/05e5c107/attachment.gif>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 42 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/05e5c107/attachment-0001.gif>

From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Feb  5 16:12:27 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2024 08:12:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] another health dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbsuHnCZp1tPR8i6hhpJxwQr+7QiuL=h=qCKWMZegNz-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbsuHnCZp1tPR8i6hhpJxwQr+7QiuL=h=qCKWMZegNz-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a973d1ec7864419221dd4a7a03eb1d77@sollegro.com>

On 2024-02-02 14:04, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> An Ocean ofAir, by Gabrielle Walker, a chemist,is really excellent.
> But...
> 
> She says that taking in more antioxidants may interfere with body's
> own production of them.  Now what?  bill w

Preface: I am not a medical doctor and I am not licensed for medicine in 
any state or country. These are merely my personal views based on my own 
experience and therefore YMMV.

In answer to Gabrielle Walker's assertion that exogenous antioxidants 
interfere with the body's production of them, I would ask "So what?"

There are antioxidants your body can enzymatically produce and 
antioxidants your body cannot produce. (I will limit this to human 
physiology as there are species can produce many antioxidants that your 
body cannot.)  An example of an antioxidant your body can produce is 
superoxide dismutase. It is an enzyme that protects you from oxygen free 
radicals that your mitochondria generate in the process of the citric 
acid cycle and oxidative phosphorylation that make up aerobic 
respiration. An example of an antioxidant your body CANNOT produce is 
ascorbic acid aka vitamin C. Therefore all of the vitamin C in your body 
comes from either food or supplements.

Because your body has been fine-tuned for metabolic efficiency over 
millions of years of scarcity, your body will not waste energy making 
vital substances that are plentiful in your diet. For example, your body 
can make its own cholesterol from carbohydrates if you are a vegetarian 
say but if you eat enough meat, then your body won't  waste its energy 
making more of the stuff than you need. Therefore if you take an 
antioxidant, or any substance, that your body is capable of producing on 
its own, then the exogenous substance will temporarily shut down its own 
production of the substance in many cases. This is known as feedback 
inhibition and it is a naturally evolved mechanism.

The important thing to note is that this shut down of production is 
temporary in the sense that the body is simply responding to the 
abundance of the substance in your diet, and does not forget how to make 
its own in times of scarcity. So if you taking antioxidants keeps your 
body from making its own, that just means you don't need any more of 
that antioxidant. This is normal and not unhealthy.

That being said, it is possible to overdose on antioxidants and 
vitamins, just like it is possible to overdose on anything including 
water. This is especially dangerous for fat-soluble varieties such as 
vitamin E, vitamin A, and EGCG (green tea extract), because the body 
stores what it doesn't use instead of pissing it away.

Anecdotally however, Linus Pauling was a Nobel prize winning chemist 
that figured out how proteins were structured by discovering the alpha 
helix. He famously megadosed with 5 grams of vitamin C a day, and while 
it is true that he pissed most of it away, this did not interfere with 
him living to 98 years old. So I guess the best thing to do is take 
supplements that you think you need on a case by case basis, using the 
medical studies as a guide, but do so in moderation and pay attention to 
your labs when you go in for blood work.

Stuart LaForge

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 17:48:54 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 17:48:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] California storms
Message-ID: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've just seen a news report that California is being hit with
bad storms and floods.

<https://inews.co.uk/news/world/california-storm-trees-homes-floods-2890594>
Quotes:
Deadly California storm wreaks havoc with trees uprooted and homes damaged
Man killed by falling tree as hundreds of thousands are left without
power and canyon homes are evacuated
By Claire Gilbody-Dickerson   February 5, 2024
---------------

The report also said -
Just to the south in San Jose, emergency crews pulled occupants out of
the windows of a car stranded by floodwater and rescued people from a
homeless encampment alongside a rising river.
------------------

That might be the homeless camp that Spike was posting about a few months ago.

I hope we hear soon that our California members are OK.

BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 17:53:27 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 09:53:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQOO+CmXRdJaVRd=W28X+aWZtfRuU8Wc_3xNwTcP_Es=w@mail.gmail.com>

There were power outages a few blocks from here, and a NWS flood advisory
for (apparently) the whole county and a neighboring one, but my household
remained safe.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:51?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I've just seen a news report that California is being hit with
> bad storms and floods.
>
> <
> https://inews.co.uk/news/world/california-storm-trees-homes-floods-2890594
> >
> Quotes:
> Deadly California storm wreaks havoc with trees uprooted and homes damaged
> Man killed by falling tree as hundreds of thousands are left without
> power and canyon homes are evacuated
> By Claire Gilbody-Dickerson   February 5, 2024
> ---------------
>
> The report also said -
> Just to the south in San Jose, emergency crews pulled occupants out of
> the windows of a car stranded by floodwater and rescued people from a
> homeless encampment alongside a rising river.
> ------------------
>
> That might be the homeless camp that Spike was posting about a few months
> ago.
>
> I hope we hear soon that our California members are OK.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/b5944883/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  5 18:51:48 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:51:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005701da5864$6066e1a0$2134a4e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Monday, 5 February, 2024 9:49 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] California storms

 

I've just seen a news report that California is being hit with bad storms
and floods.

 

<
<https://inews.co.uk/news/world/california-storm-trees-homes-floods-2890594>
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/california-storm-trees-homes-floods-2890594>

Quotes:

Deadly California storm wreaks havoc with trees uprooted and homes damaged
Man killed by falling tree as hundreds of thousands are left without power
and canyon homes are evacuated

By Claire Gilbody-Dickerson   February 5, 2024

---------------

 

The report also said -

Just to the south in San Jose, emergency crews pulled occupants out of the
windows of a car stranded by floodwater and rescued people from a homeless
encampment alongside a rising river.

------------------

 

That might be the homeless camp that Spike was posting about a few months
ago.

 

I hope we hear soon that our California members are OK.

 

BillK

_______________________________________________

 

 

 

Hi BillK, thx I hadn't heard of a tree slaying some hapless prole near here,
but such is the nature of news in our times: something happens right in
one's own neighborhood, we hear about it from a friend in Jolly Olde
England, because we have no local news sources and even if we did, they
might not report that.

 

Coincidental for you to mention that, for yesterday I was out walking in the
gale.  I am from Florida, and one of the things I really miss is loud angry
weather.  We don't have much of that in California.  A good righteous storm
is unusual.  So when it happens, as it did yesterday, I test my hiking gear
by donning everything and going out around the neighborhood in a driving
gale.  Oh what fun, said the crazy bahstid out there walking in this
hurricane.

 

Well, it was kinda.  I am not a very beefy sort, as Adrian can attest.  More
of a beef jerky sort perhaps, but with bones imbedded within the little bit
of flesh, so my surface area to volume ratio is high enough to make for
great sport in high wind conditions.

 

While I was out at the park near my house, I saw that a tree had blown
across the walkway, the one the childring use on their way to school.  I was
not man enough to drag it off the path, and the grassy area to the right of
the tree is a mud bog now, so I went and fetched my neighbor.
Unfortunately, he too is a superannuated gentleman, so the two of us
together were not substantial enough to drag that tree off the path:

 



 

Fortunately, technology came to our rescue, as technology is known to do for
those of us who lack actual strength and brains.  I went home and fetched
MISTER CHAIN SAW!

 

With my neighbor as the local cheering section, I reduced the reclining
flora to KINDLING with Mister Chain Saw.  We could pretend we were doing a
good deed clearing a path for those childring to get to school.  But of
course, Mister Chain Saw is the greatest man toy ever invented.  It makes a
lot of noise, it destroys stuff, it gives a man a sense of power like
nobody's business and as a marvelous bonus, it even provides a delightful
level of actual danger.  It is practically a testosterone injection!  There
is a good reason why Mister Chain Saw is the weapon of choice for Duke
Nukem.  

 

My bride wondered what had gotten into me when I returned home.  Mildly
alarmed she was, while simultaneously intrigued and hoping I would do more
of whatever drug I had secretly devoured while on my insane stroll thru the
gale force winds.

 

BillK, do not be alarmed sir.  This is the kinda stuff we yanks do for fun.
We don't have redcoats to fight anymore, and the state of California has
made it practically illegal to carry a firearm while not committing an
actual felony.  If one is carrying in order to carry out a felony, our legal
system will let that go.  But the local constabulary takes a dim view if one
merely carries a firearm while ot committing an actual felony.  So I
couldn't just go home and get Mister Thirty Aught Six and blast the damn
weed out of the way.  Mister Chain Saw got the job.

 

There's more rain and wind coming this week.  I am hoping to go hunting for
downed trees.  I still have gasoline left in Mister Chain Saw.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/e3c4f839/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 21377 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/e3c4f839/attachment-0001.jpg>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  5 18:55:54 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:55:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <005701da5864$6066e1a0$2134a4e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da5864$6066e1a0$2134a4e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <005f01da5864$f29054d0$d7b0fe70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
.

 

>.There's more rain and wind coming this week.  I am hoping to go hunting
for downed trees.  I still have gasoline left in Mister Chain Saw.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I should offer a word of explanation for the previous.  You have
perhaps heard of Florida Man, a mostly fictitious character based on so many
crazy news stories, most of them involving drunkenness, insanity, nakedness,
the essential elements of a Florida Man story, stuff that actually happens
regularly in Florida, the state where I cheerfully squandered my tragically
misspent youth and childhood.

 

You can take Florida Man out of Florida but you can't take the Florida out
of Florida Man.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/a25abda0/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 19:16:25 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 11:16:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5FoiO-H6So67oCsECAjgYL45VQxszJdVALBAXV-9XWsA@mail.gmail.com>

Max more recently wrote.

"The idea of transhumanism has spread so widely "

A while back I ran into someone who was bemoaning transhumanism's
corrosive influence.

That's a bit hard to take.  Wikipedia has about a million people in
the category of "living people."  68 of those are categorized as
transhumanists and a substantial number of them are dead or in cryonic
suspension.

Keith

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb  5 19:36:24 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 11:36:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <005f01da5864$f29054d0$d7b0fe70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da5864$6066e1a0$2134a4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <005f01da5864$f29054d0$d7b0fe70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <008501da586a$9b2e2040$d18a60c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Monday, 5 February, 2024 10:56 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: 'BillK' <pharos at gmail.com>; spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: [ExI] California storms

 

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com>  <spike at rainier66.com
<mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > 
.

 

>>.There's more rain and wind coming this week.  I am hoping to go hunting
for downed trees.  I still have gasoline left in Mister Chain Saw.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

>.Perhaps I should offer a word of explanation for the previous.  You have
perhaps heard of Florida Man, a mostly fictitious character based on so many
crazy news stories, most of them involving drunkenness, insanity, nakedness,
the essential elements of a Florida Man story.spike

 

 

 

Clarification please on my description of Florida Man as being a mostly
fictitious character.  I didn't actually claim the stunts which earned him
the label and the arrest record are fictitious.  Tragically, the stunts are
true.  But it isn't the same guy doing all of them (evidence: Florida Man
sometimes gets killed doing his Florida Man thing.)  Note that "Florida Man"
is a generic term representing a class of likeably insane rednecks, often
most entertaining rubes, doing silly things usually preceded by the famous
phrase "Hey yall, hold mah beer and watch this shit."  

 

As a further explanation for why most Florida Man stories involve nakedness,
I must explain that Florida has a lot of warm humid weather.  Finding a
naked person is much more likely in Florida than in Minnesota, especially
this time of year.  I was in Florida a coupla weeks ago, and it was over 80F
(30C) regularly.  I kept my clothes on, for I had business to do and wished
to eschew contributing to the internet comedy genre known collectively as
Florida Man.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240205/c6528261/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 19:46:50 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 19:46:50 +0000
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <005f01da5864$f29054d0$d7b0fe70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701da5864$6066e1a0$2134a4e0$@rainier66.com>
 <005f01da5864$f29054d0$d7b0fe70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjDoJ5vWrTbWA6Gx4feaH6Qm4mWRV9qrv=JXgp6TxAH2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 at 18:55, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>?There?s more rain and wind coming this week.  I am hoping to go hunting for downed trees.  I still have gasoline left in Mister Chain Saw?
>
> spike
>-------------------------------------


Good to hear you're all OK in California and out singing the lumberjack song!
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshU58nI0Ts>

CNN seems to be providing good news coverage.
<https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/california-atmospheric-river-flooding-rain-02-05-24/index.html>
Quote:
Atmospheric river lashes California with heavy rain and wind
By Mary Gilbert, Antoinette Radford and Eric Zerkel, CNN
February 5, 2024

Winds were screaming Sunday night in the Sierra Nevada. Wind gusts
eclipsed 140 mph for two weather reporting stations located at about
8,700 feet in elevation in the greater Lake Tahoe area.

One of these stations, located on Ward Peak in Placer County, recorded
a 162 mph wind gust just after midnight Monday. Stronger winds are
more common at higher elevations, but these winds are still
exceptional for mountainous terrain.
--------------------

The redwood tree fell on a man in Yuba City, north of Sacramento.
Los Angeles seems to be getting heavy rain and flooding now.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 20:12:09 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 20:12:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Herculaneum scroll revealed
Message-ID: <CAL_armhuK+9qddu7AotkKtSMNPG=ySn0kKiHOwNUvnXDdiX-VQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is amazing! They have managed to read the charred Herculaneum
scroll from the Vesuvius eruption.

<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00346-8>
Quotes:
05 February 2024
First passages of rolled-up Herculaneum scroll revealed
Researchers used artificial intelligence to decipher the text of
2,000-year-old charred papyrus scripts, unveiling musings on music and
capers.
By Jo Marchant

A team of student researchers has made a giant contribution to solving
one of the biggest mysteries in archaeology by revealing the content
of Greek writing inside a charred scroll buried 2,000 years ago by the
eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
--------------------

BillK

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 20:57:48 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 12:57:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Coal and PV
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7Gcmi56WMMaL2_AYs9XqXj_HR4HiEyS5jZnGKFz5TjcA@mail.gmail.com>

It takes right at 3 MWh of heat energy to vaporize a ton of coal in
steam.  A considerable amount of coal is turned into syngas using
oxygen to burn part of the coal and provide heat.  I don't know for
sure how exact this is, but considering coal combustion at 6.7 kWh/kg
3 MWh will require burning 448 kg of coal.  This is done with oxygen
so there is a cost for the oxygen at 7 to 10 cents per kg, 1194 kg of
O2 costing $84 to $119.  What this means is that close to half a ton
of coal must be burned to vaporize a ton of coal.  There is also more
CO2 in the gas stream which increases the size of the absorber section
and the amount of CO2 vented or sequestered.

So the cost per ton vaporized would be 1.448 x the cost per ton of
coal plus the oxygen.  For coal at $20/ton, the cost to make syngas
would be about $130/ton of coal, most of it from the oxygen.

Compare: to a submerged arc.  For dedicated PV at 1.35 cents per kWh,
($13.50/MWh) the electrical cost would be $40.50.  Grid electricity
gets down to zero at times.  But to use this power would require a
syngas storage of considerable size.  An empty gas field would be
ideal.

Keith

PS, there is an ammonia plant that makes syngas from petroleum coke.
It is essentially a rocket engine followed by gas cleanup and
conditioning.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeyville_Resources

Another related plant is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Gasification_Company

The plant currently makes methane but is being converted to making hydrogen.

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 21:24:34 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 13:24:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6eSHetmv0RgenX95L2cO8pOnKJqKDt57mzcYzWhQDDkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 9:51?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I've just seen a news report that California is being hit with
> bad storms and floods.

I live in the north end of LA and so far it has rained over 5 inches.
Slow and steady so far.

Keith

> <https://inews.co.uk/news/world/california-storm-trees-homes-floods-2890594>
> Quotes:
> Deadly California storm wreaks havoc with trees uprooted and homes damaged
> Man killed by falling tree as hundreds of thousands are left without
> power and canyon homes are evacuated
> By Claire Gilbody-Dickerson   February 5, 2024
> ---------------
>
> The report also said -
> Just to the south in San Jose, emergency crews pulled occupants out of
> the windows of a car stranded by floodwater and rescued people from a
> homeless encampment alongside a rising river.
> ------------------
>
> That might be the homeless camp that Spike was posting about a few months ago.
>
> I hope we hear soon that our California members are OK.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 22:42:26 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 15:42:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Herculaneum scroll revealed
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhuK+9qddu7AotkKtSMNPG=ySn0kKiHOwNUvnXDdiX-VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhuK+9qddu7AotkKtSMNPG=ySn0kKiHOwNUvnXDdiX-VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAkjfn0EU7hyMXqP_XTefbKbhV8zEkADwqF9dMdX_bPDQ@mail.gmail.com>

And these are the same people who doubt that we'll ever be able to
scan cryogenically frozen brains... This is only going to get better
with time. Too bad they've destroyed so many of the scrolls thinking
that they were too far gone to get anything out of. Seems the same
thing as people dying and not being preserved.

-Kelly

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 1:13?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> This is amazing! They have managed to read the charred Herculaneum
> scroll from the Vesuvius eruption.
>
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00346-8>
> Quotes:
> 05 February 2024
> First passages of rolled-up Herculaneum scroll revealed
> Researchers used artificial intelligence to decipher the text of
> 2,000-year-old charred papyrus scripts, unveiling musings on music and
> capers.
> By Jo Marchant
>
> A team of student researchers has made a giant contribution to solving
> one of the biggest mysteries in archaeology by revealing the content
> of Greek writing inside a charred scroll buried 2,000 years ago by the
> eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
> --------------------
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 23:48:44 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2024 15:48:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoin
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5QJ8wBjrpP8M9Wcx50aCLY3W=3idzVMX2+7Py7NXvEnQ@mail.gmail.com>

The Trial Over Bitcoin?s True Creator Is in Session

BY JOEL KHALILI

A UK High Court will settle a long-running debate over whether Craig
Wright really is Satoshi Nakamoto, inventor of Bitcoin. Monday?s
opening arguments laid the groundwork for both sides.

^^^^^^

I sort of doubt this.  As I recall, Satoshi mined what is now about a
billion dollars worth of bitcoins when it was easy to do.  As I
recall, none of them have ever been used.

If Wright were Satoshi, he would be rich.

Keith


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb  6 12:41:30 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2024 04:41:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] California storms
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101da58f9$d02f1b20$708d5160$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
...
Subject: [ExI] California storms

I've just seen a news report that California is being hit with bad storms
and floods.

<https://inews.co.uk/news/world/california-storm-trees-homes-floods-2890594>
...
---------------

The report also said -
Just to the south in San Jose, emergency crews pulled occupants out of the
windows of a car stranded by floodwater and rescued people from a homeless
encampment alongside a rising river.
------------------

>...That might be the homeless camp that Spike was posting about a few
months ago.

>...I hope we hear soon that our California members are OK.

BillK
_______________________________________________



Hi BillK,

Since I already offered a goofy riff about sawing up the local tree which
blew over, I should post a more sober commentary to go with it.

In that news story and others linked to it, you likely saw a constable
standing on a bridge in which water was occasionally splashing up onto the
road surface.  That tells you the water level below that bridge: it was
right up to the understructure.

California has a mild climate, seldom seeing frost.  People are pouring
across the southern border from all over the world.  California is not
building many new homes, certainly not enough to house all the new arrivals.
So... a lot of people live underneath overpasses and bridges.  This can be
done.  We take our scouts camping up in the Sierras on winter survival
training exercises.  (Note: I don't do that particular form of insanity
(opting instead for warm-weather insanity.))  We do regular winter campouts
down here in the flatlands.  It really isn't that hard to survive outdoors
in California, and even easier as you go south towards Los Angeles and San
Diego.

Consequently... plenty of people come to the USA and choose homeless here
rather than homeful wherever they come from.

If one is going to live outdoors, an overpass or under a bridge makes
perfect sense.  It is warmer at night down there.  If one goes to most
places along a waterway around here, especially underneath bridges, there
are people living there, and some structures more permanent than a tent.
Once in a while, not as often as Jingle Bells but more often than the leap
year, rains come fast enough to sweep away those encampments.  This year it
did, and last year, but not for about 5 years in a row before that.  The
encampments were growing that whole time during the drought.  Now... they
are not there anymore, at least the structures aren't there.  Rushing water
carried the debris out into the bay.

I recognize that I offered only observations and no suggestions regarding
the growing problem of rampant homelessness.  If I am going to post a goofy
riff on cutting up trees, I should at least acknowledge that ja of course
California has a huge problem with homelessness and it is getting worse
quickly, with no plausible solutions in sight.  We can't even close the
border.  The masses want freedom and capitalism, even if it means they must
camp out here to get there.

spike




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 13:02:27 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2024 07:02:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] purple tomato
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEacoUgSRoqH-F74a1CUM4AG8HH8b=yhY66g+2KMmQJuYg@mail.gmail.com>

As you likely have read, there is a new tomato, the first GMO seed to be
available to the public.  I bought it and will raise it (and tell you how
it tastes).  I am fully supportive of GMO in any form.

https://www.google.com/search?q=image+the+purple+tomato&rlz=1CAPOUW_enUS946&oq=image+the+purple+tomato&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQg2Mjg5ajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I am actually a bit excited!  This is the future of seeds.

billw
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240206/8ee5aaea/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb  6 13:17:56 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2024 05:17:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fermi flood was:  RE:  California storms
In-Reply-To: <003101da58f9$d02f1b20$708d5160$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101da58f9$d02f1b20$708d5160$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <004601da58fe$e692f8a0$b3b8e9e0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
...

>...Consequently... plenty of people come to the USA and choose homeless
here rather than homeful wherever they come from.  If one is going to live
outdoors, an overpass or under a bridge makes perfect sense...The masses
want freedom and capitalism, even if it means they must camp out here to get
there.  spike


I have been all over the map on this one, so I decided to post something
over on a yet-uncommented part of the thought-map.

The high schools play a game named for Enrico Fermi who was really good at
this: estimating the order of magnitude.  An example of a fermi question
would be: How many neutrons are in a fig newton?

A good player would estimate its mass at about 10 to 20 grams, mostly
carbon, a mole of carbon is about 12 grams, so about a mole times six
neutrons per carbon atom, so 3.6E24 neutrons approximately, and depending on
how you estimate mass, the answer might be either 24 or 25.

Local flooding: there is a footbridge across the local waterway.  I was over
there during last year's rains and noticed that the water is the color of
chocolate milk.  I found a cup and scooped out a water sample, let it settle
and observed that you aren't far off if you estimate the water is 10%
sediment by mass, perhaps 5% by volume.  There really is that much silt and
soil washing down that channel.

I was over there yesterday and estimated, Fermi style, the average depth
across there, about a meter, and its width, about ten meters.  When the
water is that color, as it is now, the flow rate is likely higher than a
meter a second, but a meter per second as a Fermi-ey estimate will get you
there.  So... after a hard rain, as we have been having all week, about ten
cubic meters per second flow rate down that channel, at about 10% silt.

Fermi question: in kg, the mass of silt carried by the Penitentia Creek
after a hard rain per second.  Answer: 3.  10^3 kg per second.  A ton of
silt per second.  This process can go on for hours, or days.

Second question: where does all that silt go?  

It gives one a new sense of how deltas form, and what happens when we need
the space to build homes, so we defeat nature's course and build a single
narrow channel where a vast river delta used to be.  

Prediction: eventually that channel will silt up and restrict flow rate,
causing water to rise along the course of that river.  Consequence: the
homeless living under those bridges will get washed out more regularly.

spike


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 13:42:44 2024
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2024 05:42:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] fermi flood was: RE: California storms
In-Reply-To: <004601da58fe$e692f8a0$b3b8e9e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101da58f9$d02f1b20$708d5160$@rainier66.com>
 <004601da58fe$e692f8a0$b3b8e9e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcQjUyBHkXvBKVWBvDRJodzfwjUob9D7JrCgV8UvP8M-g@mail.gmail.com>

I love Fermi's problems, they are very important to understanding the world
around us, orders of magnitude questions can give us important insights
about the universe.

Talking about orders of magnitude and scaling properties my Power Law Model
for BTC is getting some attention. If you want to watch this great
interview I did with finance YouTube celebrity Andrei Jikh and send me a
like I would appreciate it. Let me know what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX8LPbMGyl4&t=196s

Thanks,
Giovanni


On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 5:19?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
> ...
>
> >...Consequently... plenty of people come to the USA and choose homeless
> here rather than homeful wherever they come from.  If one is going to live
> outdoors, an overpass or under a bridge makes perfect sense...The masses
> want freedom and capitalism, even if it means they must camp out here to
> get
> there.  spike
>
>
> I have been all over the map on this one, so I decided to post something
> over on a yet-uncommented part of the thought-map.
>
> The high schools play a game named for Enrico Fermi who was really good at
> this: estimating the order of magnitude.  An example of a fermi question
> would be: How many neutrons are in a fig newton?
>
> A good player would estimate its mass at about 10 to 20 grams, mostly
> carbon, a mole of carbon is about 12 grams, so about a mole times six
> neutrons per carbon atom, so 3.6E24 neutrons approximately, and depending
> on
> how you estimate mass, the answer might be either 24 or 25.
>
> Local flooding: there is a footbridge across the local waterway.  I was
> over
> there during last year's rains and noticed that the water is the color of
> chocolate milk.  I found a cup and scooped out a water sample, let it
> settle
> and observed that you aren't far off if you estimate the water is 10%
> sediment by mass, perhaps 5% by volume.  There really is that much silt and
> soil washing down that channel.
>
> I was over there yesterday and estimated, Fermi style, the average depth
> across there, about a meter, and its width, about ten meters.  When the
> water is that color, as it is now, the flow rate is likely higher than a
> meter a second, but a meter per second as a Fermi-ey estimate will get you
> there.  So... after a hard rain, as we have been having all week, about ten
> cubic meters per second flow rate down that channel, at about 10% silt.
>
> Fermi question: in kg, the mass of silt carried by the Penitentia Creek
> after a hard rain per second.  Answer: 3.  10^3 kg per second.  A ton of
> silt per second.  This process can go on for hours, or days.
>
> Second question: where does all that silt go?
>
> It gives one a new sense of how deltas form, and what happens when we need
> the space to build homes, so we defeat nature's course and build a single
> narrow channel where a vast river delta used to be.
>
> Prediction: eventually that channel will silt up and restrict flow rate,
> causing water to rise along the course of that river.  Consequence: the
> homeless living under those bridges will get washed out more regularly.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240206/d18e886e/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 11:25:20 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 11:25:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
Message-ID: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>

"Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics
By Loz Blain   February 07, 2024

<https://newatlas.com/sports/enhanced-games-olympics-steroids/>
Quotes:
It seems the Enhanced Games are on like Donkey Kong, with
multi-million dollar investments from Peter Thiel and other
high-profile VCs. Performance-enhancing drugs are welcome ? indeed,
this could become an early preview of a transhuman Olympics.

You could argue the Tour de France beat them to it ? or indeed the
regular Olympics themselves; of the top six fastest men ever to run
the 100-meter sprint, only Usain Bolt has never tested positive for
banned substances.

And maybe we're being too precious about the sanctity of the human
body, in an age where bionics, brain chips, AI, gene editing and all
manner of transhumanist technologies are coming within reach. If this
stuff can make us better, maybe we should let it, and maybe the
Enhanced Games are a symbolic step in that direction.
------------------

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 13:09:59 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 13:09:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI reviews the impact of AI on humans
Message-ID: <CAL_armj+MBFbTMEsV262fKOXxrf5jZUJNEiw2bb3Fr7jsVoADg@mail.gmail.com>

I asked an AI to write a short article on the impact of AI.
Life is going to be very different in the future.

BillK

---------------------

Title: The Inevitable Influence of AI on Human Opinions and World Views

Introduction:
The rapid development of AI technology has sparked debates and
discussions about its potential impact on various aspects of human
life. One area of particular interest is the role of AI in shaping
people's opinions, ideas, and world views. This article explores the
inevitability of AI's influence on human cognition, highlighting both
the potential benefits and concerns associated with this phenomenon.

AI as Personal Assistants:
With continued advancements in AI technology, it is predicted that
personal AI assistants will become commonplace in the future. These
assistants have the potential to act as coaches, support systems,
therapists, and even friends. The upside of having a personal AI
assistant is undeniably high, as they can perform these roles more
efficiently than humans. The seamless integration of AI into our daily
lives will revolutionize the way we interact with technology.

AI as Information Influencers:
While personal AI assistants might not be the primary interactive
mechanism with AI, a significant portion of people's information feed
will undoubtedly be generated or influenced by AI. This influence
extends to various aspects of our lives, such as copiloting, search
results, and even the generation of news articles. AI algorithms have
the capacity to curate and tailor information based on an individual's
preferences, leading to a highly personalized and potentially biased
information ecosystem.

The Manipulability of Humans:
Human beings, as social creatures, have proven to be susceptible to
manipulation. Social media platforms have provided a compelling case
study, demonstrating how the selective guidance of information can
easily shape people's thought patterns. By controlling the information
input, social media platforms have the ability to guide individuals
towards specific ideas and beliefs, sometimes without their conscious
awareness. Similarly, state-controlled media in dictatorial countries
has demonstrated how biased news coverage can sway public opinion in
favor of the government.

The Inevitable Influence of AI:
Combining the manipulability of humans with the growing influence of
AI, it becomes apparent that AI will not only guide but also be in
control of people's opinions, ideas, and world views. AI algorithms,
driven by data and machine learning, will continuously refine their
understanding of individuals' preferences, beliefs, and behaviors.
This targeted manipulation of information can lead to a homogenization
of perspectives, limiting the diversity of opinions and ideas within
society.

Conclusion:
As AI continues to advance, its impact on human cognition and the
shaping of opinions cannot be ignored. While the potential benefits of
AI as personal assistants are immense, the influence of AI on people's
information consumption raises concerns about the homogenization and
manipulation of ideas. It is essential for society to navigate the
ethical and social implications of AI's influence, ensuring that our
reliance on AI does not compromise our ability to think critically and
independently.
----------------

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 14:02:07 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 08:02:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYTq+gcO-TpCPzXKUuPUvJ21OM6yFbc6gse_1zCGh7VHA@mail.gmail.com>

I would go for an enhanced Olympics if the enhancers were vetted by
physicians.  Usage to the point of amennorrhea is too much - not healthy
for the women.  Ditto for men etc.  Perhaps that would keep the contestants
healthier.  bill w

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 5:28?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics
> By Loz Blain   February 07, 2024
>
> <https://newatlas.com/sports/enhanced-games-olympics-steroids/>
> Quotes:
> It seems the Enhanced Games are on like Donkey Kong, with
> multi-million dollar investments from Peter Thiel and other
> high-profile VCs. Performance-enhancing drugs are welcome ? indeed,
> this could become an early preview of a transhuman Olympics.
>
> You could argue the Tour de France beat them to it ? or indeed the
> regular Olympics themselves; of the top six fastest men ever to run
> the 100-meter sprint, only Usain Bolt has never tested positive for
> banned substances.
>
> And maybe we're being too precious about the sanctity of the human
> body, in an age where bionics, brain chips, AI, gene editing and all
> manner of transhumanist technologies are coming within reach. If this
> stuff can make us better, maybe we should let it, and maybe the
> Enhanced Games are a symbolic step in that direction.
> ------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240207/dd8803f2/attachment-0001.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb  7 16:20:42 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 08:20:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008501da59e1$996d1ef0$cc475cd0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat
Sent: Wednesday, 7 February, 2024 3:25 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics

"Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics
By Loz Blain   February 07, 2024

<https://newatlas.com/sports/enhanced-games-olympics-steroids/>
Quotes:
>...It seems the Enhanced Games are on like Donkey Kong, with multi-million dollar investments from Peter Thiel and other high-profile VCs. Performance-enhancing drugs are welcome ? indeed, this could become an early preview of a transhuman Olympics.

>...You could argue the Tour de France beat them to it ? or indeed the regular Olympics themselves; of the top six fastest men ever to run the 100-meter sprint, only Usain Bolt has never tested positive for banned substances.

>...And maybe we're being too precious about the sanctity of the human body, in an age where bionics, brain chips, AI, gene editing and all manner of transhumanist technologies are coming within reach. If this stuff can make us better, maybe we should let it, and maybe the Enhanced Games are a symbolic step in that direction.
------------------

BillK

_______________________________________________



BillK, I have been anticipating something like this for a long time.  I am surprised it has taken this long to happen, but not surprised Peter Thiel is the one who is getting it done.  He is a very special guy: smart as a whip, loooooves competition, any competitive skill-based game, hell he's worse than I am, sheesh.  The evolutionary psychology is strong in this one.

I aw a foot race where one of the competitors, Oscar Pistorius, was an amputee and had steel springs below the knee.  It occurred to me we might be able to rig something like that for people who have actual feet: some kind of springy something, where we could have a new class of competition: use any mechanical enhancement which does not involve wheels.  The hoop-spring leg adapters would be a great example.

The mechanical enhancements could (maybe) have electric power, or make that a separate category, powered and non-powered.  We have already explored deeply the race competitions which allow wheels.  Now I want to see wheeled robot races and non-wheeled enhanced human racing.

Oh mercy is this a great time to be living or what?

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb  7 16:37:10 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 08:37:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] florida man from new york
Message-ID: <00a501da59e3$e6103100$b2309300$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

Note that Florida Man might actually be from New York:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-man-arrested-joyriding-pickup-truck-flor
ida-surf-police

 

I noticed some fun details in the article.  The crazy fool shown driving in
the shallow surf on New Smyrna Beach (near where I cheerfully misspent my
tragically misspent childhood and youth) was only charged with failing to
pay the vehicle access fee.

 

Never mind literally endangering the lives of the other crazy Florida Man
fools which might be out in that surf swimming, scuba diving, fishing or
surfing that time of day, oh no.  Endangering Florida Man is more or less
legal in that state.  But gate crashing, oh no, we don't allow that in these
parts you know.  Taint proper!

 

Sheesh.  Sometimes I am embarrassed to admit where I grew up.

 

Other times I am vaguely proud of it, sort of an incompatible mix which is
hard to name without an inherent contradiction: contentedly embarrassed?
Abashedly proud?

 

Note that Florida Man stories are really not merely typical news reporting,
but rather they are offered for our amusement and personal self-esteem.  We
read about the crazy goofballs and think to ourselves: I have been known to
do some ill-advised stunts in my time, but EVEN I am not THAT damn crazy.

 

The stories are simultaneously entertaining and self-esteem builders.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240207/6c5b16ec/attachment.htm>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 17:12:33 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 12:12:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYTq+gcO-TpCPzXKUuPUvJ21OM6yFbc6gse_1zCGh7VHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYTq+gcO-TpCPzXKUuPUvJ21OM6yFbc6gse_1zCGh7VHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK7aX7YRA2vrhTFKBBTBPaNmp=v0DGt6vDvb5u7TNJ4ig@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 9:04 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I would go for an enhanced Olympics if the enhancers were vetted by
> physicians.  Usage to the point of amennorrhea is too much - not healthy
> for the women.  Ditto for men etc.  Perhaps that would keep the contestants
> healthier.  bill w
>

That's a weird line to draw.

It means the men have no such limit, which means the women simply claim to
be men.

I guess man+estrogen to compete in "women's sports" is unfair (for some
definition of fair) and potentially woman+steroids to compete in doped
Olympics could be a different kind of unfair.

These may the "interesting times" we've been blessed/cursed with :)

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240207/3058a973/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb  7 17:32:10 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 09:32:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK7aX7YRA2vrhTFKBBTBPaNmp=v0DGt6vDvb5u7TNJ4ig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYTq+gcO-TpCPzXKUuPUvJ21OM6yFbc6gse_1zCGh7VHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbK7aX7YRA2vrhTFKBBTBPaNmp=v0DGt6vDvb5u7TNJ4ig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301da59eb$94f016c0$bed04440$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024, 9:04 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

>? - not healthy for the women.  Ditto for men etc.  ?.  bill w

 

 

 

 

What are these strange terms you use: ?men? and ?women??  Define please sir.

 

 

(?heeeeeeeheheheheheheeeeee?)

 

 

Billw, I sometimes get the impression that modern society has reached peak silliness and may be considering a return to the ordinary traditional level of silliness.  

 

Other times, it is not clear we have hit rock top.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240207/fd0bac25/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 21:23:03 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 21:23:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
Message-ID: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
BillK

Ask an AI -

Unprovable Physics and Philosophy

The question of whether unprovable physics is philosophy is a complex
and nuanced one. It involves the intersection of two distinct fields -
physics and philosophy. To address this question comprehensively, it
is important to understand the nature of unprovable physics and its
relationship to philosophy.

Unprovable Physics

In the realm of physics, there are concepts and theories that are
difficult or even impossible to prove empirically. These may include
ideas related to the fundamental nature of the universe, such as the
existence of parallel universes, the behavior of matter at the
singularity of a black hole, or the ultimate fate of the cosmos. These
concepts often lie at the edge of our current understanding and may be
beyond the reach of experimental verification with existing
technology.

One example is the concept of string theory, which proposes that
fundamental particles are not point-like but instead tiny, vibrating
strings. String theory has been influential in theoretical physics but
has yet to be confirmed through direct experimentation due to its
predictions being difficult to test with current technology.

Philosophy

Philosophy, on the other hand, deals with fundamental questions about
existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It involves
critical thinking and rational inquiry into these areas without
necessarily relying on empirical evidence. Philosophical inquiry often
delves into areas that are beyond the scope of empirical science and
seeks to understand concepts at a more abstract or conceptual level.

Intersection of Unprovable Physics and Philosophy

When considering unprovable physics, it becomes apparent that certain
concepts may overlap with philosophical inquiries. The inability to
empirically verify certain aspects of physics can lead to discussions
that resemble philosophical debates. For example, discussions about
the multiverse hypothesis or the nature of time in relation to
cosmological models can involve elements of both physics and
philosophy.

In some cases, physicists may turn to philosophical reasoning when
grappling with unprovable aspects of their theories. This can involve
considerations about the nature of reality, the limits of scientific
knowledge, and the implications of different theoretical frameworks.
Similarly, philosophers may engage with unprovable physics by
examining its conceptual foundations and implications for broader
philosophical questions.

Conclusion

In conclusion, while unprovable physics and philosophy are distinct
disciplines, there is an intersection where they can inform each
other. Unprovable physics may raise philosophical questions about the
nature of reality and our understanding of it. However, it is
important to recognize that while there may be overlap, unprovable
physics remains primarily within the domain of scientific inquiry,
whereas philosophy operates in its own distinct sphere.

Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: The Stanford Encyclopedia of
Philosophy is a comprehensive online resource known for its
peer-reviewed articles on various philosophical topics. It provides
in-depth analyses and discussions on complex philosophical issues.

Physics Today: Physics Today is a respected publication that covers a
wide range of topics in physics. It features articles written by
experts in the field and provides insights into current developments
and debates within physics.

The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: This journal
publishes high-quality articles on the philosophy of science,
including discussions on the intersection between physics and
philosophy. It is a reputable source for scholarly work in this area.

These sources were instrumental in providing authoritative information
on both unprovable physics and its relationship to philosophy.

Philosophers want to know why physicists believe theories they can?t prove
<https://qz.com/590406/philosophers-want-to-know-why-physicists-believe-theories-they-cant-prove>

Some Important Truths Are Scientifically Unprovable
<https://johnmccone.com/2019/03/29/some-important-truths-are-scientifically-unprovable/>
--------------


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 05:30:44 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 06:30:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>

I totally agree and I would go further: philosophy IS unprovable physics.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
> BillK
>
> Ask an AI -
>
> Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>
> The question of whether unprovable physics is philosophy is a complex
> and nuanced one. It involves the intersection of two distinct fields -
> physics and philosophy. To address this question comprehensively, it
> is important to understand the nature of unprovable physics and its
> relationship to philosophy.
>
> Unprovable Physics
>
> In the realm of physics, there are concepts and theories that are
> difficult or even impossible to prove empirically. These may include
> ideas related to the fundamental nature of the universe, such as the
> existence of parallel universes, the behavior of matter at the
> singularity of a black hole, or the ultimate fate of the cosmos. These
> concepts often lie at the edge of our current understanding and may be
> beyond the reach of experimental verification with existing
> technology.
>
> One example is the concept of string theory, which proposes that
> fundamental particles are not point-like but instead tiny, vibrating
> strings. String theory has been influential in theoretical physics but
> has yet to be confirmed through direct experimentation due to its
> predictions being difficult to test with current technology.
>
> Philosophy
>
> Philosophy, on the other hand, deals with fundamental questions about
> existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It involves
> critical thinking and rational inquiry into these areas without
> necessarily relying on empirical evidence. Philosophical inquiry often
> delves into areas that are beyond the scope of empirical science and
> seeks to understand concepts at a more abstract or conceptual level.
>
> Intersection of Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>
> When considering unprovable physics, it becomes apparent that certain
> concepts may overlap with philosophical inquiries. The inability to
> empirically verify certain aspects of physics can lead to discussions
> that resemble philosophical debates. For example, discussions about
> the multiverse hypothesis or the nature of time in relation to
> cosmological models can involve elements of both physics and
> philosophy.
>
> In some cases, physicists may turn to philosophical reasoning when
> grappling with unprovable aspects of their theories. This can involve
> considerations about the nature of reality, the limits of scientific
> knowledge, and the implications of different theoretical frameworks.
> Similarly, philosophers may engage with unprovable physics by
> examining its conceptual foundations and implications for broader
> philosophical questions.
>
> Conclusion
>
> In conclusion, while unprovable physics and philosophy are distinct
> disciplines, there is an intersection where they can inform each
> other. Unprovable physics may raise philosophical questions about the
> nature of reality and our understanding of it. However, it is
> important to recognize that while there may be overlap, unprovable
> physics remains primarily within the domain of scientific inquiry,
> whereas philosophy operates in its own distinct sphere.
>
> Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:
>
> Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: The Stanford Encyclopedia of
> Philosophy is a comprehensive online resource known for its
> peer-reviewed articles on various philosophical topics. It provides
> in-depth analyses and discussions on complex philosophical issues.
>
> Physics Today: Physics Today is a respected publication that covers a
> wide range of topics in physics. It features articles written by
> experts in the field and provides insights into current developments
> and debates within physics.
>
> The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: This journal
> publishes high-quality articles on the philosophy of science,
> including discussions on the intersection between physics and
> philosophy. It is a reputable source for scholarly work in this area.
>
> These sources were instrumental in providing authoritative information
> on both unprovable physics and its relationship to philosophy.
>
> Philosophers want to know why physicists believe theories they can?t prove
> <https://qz.com/590406/philosophers-want-to-know-why-physicists-believe-theories-they-cant-prove>
>
> Some Important Truths Are Scientifically Unprovable
> <https://johnmccone.com/2019/03/29/some-important-truths-are-scientifically-unprovable/>
> --------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Feb  8 08:36:04 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 09:36:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>


On Wed, 7 Feb 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics
> By Loz Blain   February 07, 2024
>
> <https://newatlas.com/sports/enhanced-games-olympics-steroids/>
> Quotes:
> It seems the Enhanced Games are on like Donkey Kong, with
> multi-million dollar investments from Peter Thiel and other
> high-profile VCs. Performance-enhancing drugs are welcome ? indeed,
> this could become an early preview of a transhuman Olympics.

Finally! I've been arguing in favour of this and waiting for this for
decades! Happy that Thiel finally caught up with me, _and_ has the
billions to make it happen! ;)

> And maybe we're being too precious about the sanctity of the human
> body, in an age where bionics, brain chips, AI, gene editing and all
> manner of transhumanist technologies are coming within reach. If this
> stuff can make us better, maybe we should let it, and maybe the
> Enhanced Games are a symbolic step in that direction.

It's your body and as long as you harm no one else, and you pay your own
medical bill, I say "go for it!".

Best regards, 
Daniel


> ------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb  8 18:27:50 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 10:27:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>



On Wed, 7 Feb 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

>> ..., with  multi-million dollar investments from Peter Thiel and other 
> high-profile VCs. Performance-enhancing drugs are welcome ? indeed, 
> this could become an early preview of a transhuman Olympics.

Finally! I've been arguing in favour of this and waiting for this for decades! Happy that Thiel finally caught up with me, _and_ has the billions to make it happen! ;)

>>... And maybe we're being too precious about the sanctity of the human 
> body..

>...It's your body and as long as you harm no one else, and you pay your own medical bill, I say "go for it!".

Best regards,
Daniel


> ------------------


I agree Daniel.

Regarding drug-enhanced competitions, we had an ExI chatter who insisted that drugs could improve performance in chess.  I very steadfastly argued that they cannot, with the possible well-known exception being caffeine.

If there is one thing on this planet which Peter Thiel loves more than money, it is chess.  If I knew how to contact him, I would propose he put up a modest sum for prize money, then have a tournament of stoners vs squares.

I would cheerfully play for the squares.

I suppose to make it fair, the same players would need to switch teams, and if so, he can count me out.  But if anyone could find a way, some kind of objective measure, I would still bet on Team Square.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb  8 18:54:50 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 10:54:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] libertarians nominate none of these
Message-ID: <00d101da5ac0$4bbb2eb0$e3318c10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

 

 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240208/facf6769/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 25836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240208/facf6769/attachment-0001.jpg>

From dsunley at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 22:35:23 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:35:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Herculaneum scroll revealed
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAkjfn0EU7hyMXqP_XTefbKbhV8zEkADwqF9dMdX_bPDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhuK+9qddu7AotkKtSMNPG=ySn0kKiHOwNUvnXDdiX-VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnAkjfn0EU7hyMXqP_XTefbKbhV8zEkADwqF9dMdX_bPDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRiNzdLxn4cNvCBrhW0mJ8Xc-WHLrZXHY-d=3V07u3aOg@mail.gmail.com>

Remember, though, data can't defend itself, and you have /no idea/ who or
what may be waking up your brains can for what purposes.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024, 3:44 PM Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> And these are the same people who doubt that we'll ever be able to
> scan cryogenically frozen brains... This is only going to get better
> with time. Too bad they've destroyed so many of the scrolls thinking
> that they were too far gone to get anything out of. Seems the same
> thing as people dying and not being preserved.
>
> -Kelly
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 1:13?PM BillK via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > This is amazing! They have managed to read the charred Herculaneum
> > scroll from the Vesuvius eruption.
> >
> > <https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00346-8>
> > Quotes:
> > 05 February 2024
> > First passages of rolled-up Herculaneum scroll revealed
> > Researchers used artificial intelligence to decipher the text of
> > 2,000-year-old charred papyrus scripts, unveiling musings on music and
> > capers.
> > By Jo Marchant
> >
> > A team of student researchers has made a giant contribution to solving
> > one of the biggest mysteries in archaeology by revealing the content
> > of Greek writing inside a charred scroll buried 2,000 years ago by the
> > eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
> > --------------------
> >
> > BillK
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240208/5cf869e9/attachment.htm>

From efc at swisscows.email  Thu Feb  8 22:47:51 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 23:47:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>

Good evening spike,

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024, spike at rainier66.com wrote:

> I agree Daniel.
>
> Regarding drug-enhanced competitions, we had an ExI chatter who insisted that drugs could improve performance in chess.  I very steadfastly argued that they cannot, with the possible well-known exception being caffeine.

Interesting... I mean chess is a lot about training your memory to
recognize certain positions, so I guess a drug that enables you to train
longer and harder might indirectly affect yoru chess performance.

But a drug directly affecting chess performance, I don't know. Probably
other here are way more knowledgeable than I am and can suggest some
goodies. ;)

> If there is one thing on this planet which Peter Thiel loves more than money, it is chess.  If I knew how to contact him, I would propose he put up a modest sum for prize money, then have a tournament of stoners vs squares.

Really? I had no idea! I know Woody Harrelson is another chess fan, but
I would have expected Thiel, out of joy and a certain vanity, to sponsor
some big branded chess tournaments. Or maybe he has?

> I would cheerfully play for the squares.

Are you good? Can you teach me? At a previous project I got to know an
IM who started to teach me, but then he decided to quit chess since it
took too much time and stopped. =(

Best regards, 
Daniel

> I suppose to make it fair, the same players would need to switch teams, and if so, he can count me out.  But if anyone could find a way, some kind of objective measure, I would still bet on Team Square.
>
> spike
>
>
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb  8 23:03:11 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 15:03:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
 <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <008401da5ae2$fd5a6740$f80f35c0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
efc--- via extropy-chat
...

>...But a drug directly affecting chess performance, I don't know. Probably
other here are way more knowledgeable than I am and can suggest some
goodies. ;)

Eh, I am not looking for goodies.  I want someone else to fool with these
goodies and I will play without goodies.  I wouldn't touch that kind of
goodies with a stick of dynamite.

One of our former members Robert Bradbury claimed there are
brain-performance enhancers.  I didn't ask any questions, and now we will
never know, because Robert mysteriously passed away at age 57.

> I would cheerfully play for the squares.

>...Are you good?

Middle A, rating 1900 typcally.

 >...Can you teach me?

The best bet is to get on Chess.com and play your brains out.  It adjusts to
your skill level, and gives you worthy opponents.  

I have scaled back.  Chess is addictive as hell.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 23:07:36 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 23:07:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
 <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>
Message-ID: <CAL_armipbBuLXt46HzXzk4AVp82mxc5kxYbRwrE8ifkf+hE+DA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 22:50, efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>

> Are you good? Can you teach me? At a previous project I got to know an
> IM who started to teach me, but then he decided to quit chess since it
> took too much time and stopped. =(
>
> Best regards, Daniel
> _______________________________________________


Learn Chess Online
<https://www.chess.com/learn>
Lessons

Once you have learnt the basics, you can then play against AIs that
will chat and try to improve your play.
For example, but there are others as well.
<https://noctie.ai/>

BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 00:47:17 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 16:47:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRCA7U=HvuKME-dKeZi5Xe-crWpgE1oG3PYPphERC+3vw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 10:29?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Regarding drug-enhanced competitions, we had an ExI chatter who insisted
> that drugs could improve performance in chess.  I very steadfastly argued
> that they cannot, with the possible well-known exception being caffeine.
>
> If there is one thing on this planet which Peter Thiel loves more than
> money, it is chess.  If I knew how to contact him, I would propose he put
> up a modest sum for prize money, then have a tournament of stoners vs
> squares.
>
> I would cheerfully play for the squares.
>
> I suppose to make it fair, the same players would need to switch teams,
> and if so, he can count me out.  But if anyone could find a way, some kind
> of objective measure, I would still bet on Team Square.
>

It has for many years been the case that the best chess programs can beat
the best human players.  So far as I know, at the time the assessment was
against humans not on any particular performance enhancing drugs;
subsequent improvements would no doubt have them beat even drug-boosted
humans by now.

Granted, this performance would use the usual methods to screen out AI
enhancements, although there would need to be care not to allow devices
explained as drug enhancements but actually there to let an AI watching the
match speak to a human player.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240208/5f41d883/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb  9 05:57:32 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2024 21:57:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRCA7U=HvuKME-dKeZi5Xe-crWpgE1oG3PYPphERC+3vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRCA7U=HvuKME-dKeZi5Xe-crWpgE1oG3PYPphERC+3vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e501da5b1c$e065a2a0$a130e7e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
?

 

>?It has for many years been the case that the best chess programs can beat the best human players.  So far as I know, at the time the assessment was against humans not on any particular performance enhancing drugs; subsequent improvements would no doubt have them beat even drug-boosted humans by now. 

 

>?Granted, this performance would use the usual methods to screen out AI enhancements, although there would need to be care not to allow devices explained as drug enhancements but actually there to let an AI watching the match speak to a human player?

 

 

 

 

Computer chess play can be set at any level.  It can even be made to adjust its own skill level to match the human so that each win about half the time, or a human can arrange to win 2/3 or 1/3.  Or personalities can be chosen on Chess.com with an estimated strength.  I play the software which claims to be high A/low expert range.  As much as I would like to take her word for it on that, I think she is more middle A range, which is about where I am.

 

We could get humans to play against such a software player, figure out the human?s approximate strength, then let the human devour the medication or pharmaceutical of choice, play a few more.  I confidently predict the meds will not enhance human play, again with the possible exception of caffeine.

 

Note that I am not arguing that such a medication or pharmaceutical cannot exist.  I am only arguing that such a chemical has not yet been discovered (again excepting caffeine.)

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240208/8a706e5d/attachment.htm>

From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Feb  9 08:38:51 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 09:38:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <008401da5ae2$fd5a6740$f80f35c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
 <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>
 <008401da5ae2$fd5a6740$f80f35c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <eb8bb538-f382-752c-0509-19774f72bf3f@swisscows.email>

Hello spike,

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024, spike at rainier66.com wrote:

>> ...But a drug directly affecting chess performance, I don't know. Probably
> other here are way more knowledgeable than I am and can suggest some
> goodies. ;)
>
> Eh, I am not looking for goodies.  I want someone else to fool with these
> goodies and I will play without goodies.  I wouldn't touch that kind of
> goodies with a stick of dynamite.

Come on, surely you drink coffee? ;) Jokes aside, for me it's a classic 
"it depends". Every drug has potential negative side effects and benefits. 
I'd say that my favourites are caffeine and melatonin.

>
> One of our former members Robert Bradbury claimed there are
> brain-performance enhancers.  I didn't ask any questions, and now we will
> never know, because Robert mysteriously passed away at age 57.

Sorry to hear that. =(

>> I would cheerfully play for the squares.
>
>> ...Are you good?
>
> Middle A, rating 1900 typcally.

That's pretty good!

> >...Can you teach me?
>
> The best bet is to get on Chess.com and play your brains out.  It adjusts to
> your skill level, and gives you worthy opponents.
>
> I have scaled back.  Chess is addictive as hell.

Yes... that was the conclusion of my dear IM. He looked at the sheer 
amount of time and effort he would have to spend becoming a GM and with a 
child on the way came to the conclusion that he'll hop off the chess train 
at IM level.

I still remember once when we played and he paused, and the other guys 
were wondering if he had a problem which would be strange. He responded 
that "no, I'll mate you in 7, but I'm, just trying to figure out the most 
beautiful way to do it". ;) So the question is where we that bad, or was 
he that good?

But we got our revenge. Once he played Magnus Carlsen online, and he was 
treated the same way by Magnus Carlsen. ;)

Best regards,
Daniel



From efc at swisscows.email  Fri Feb  9 08:40:45 2024
From: efc at swisscows.email (efc at swisscows.email)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 09:40:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armipbBuLXt46HzXzk4AVp82mxc5kxYbRwrE8ifkf+hE+DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <aad6bdbe-3639-fac7-28f3-3c3fb446d76f@swisscows.email>
 <00ac01da5abc$86905b90$93b112b0$@rainier66.com>
 <59469a7e-282e-65e3-1e74-7d91825788d3@swisscows.email>
 <CAL_armipbBuLXt46HzXzk4AVp82mxc5kxYbRwrE8ifkf+hE+DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b6c07f74-0c9f-a9e3-d094-6e85cc620841@swisscows.email>

Thank you Bill. I am aware of these sites, usually I use lichess.org. But 
I've come to the conclusion that if I want to better myself, self-driven 
online is not the best way forward for me.

I need someone to push me a bit.

But the drawback, as spike says, is that it takes too much time, so 
usually what happens is that life gets in the way after a while and stops 
my attempts at getting better. =(

Best regards,
Daniel


On Thu, 8 Feb 2024, BillK via extropy-chat wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 at 22:50, efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>
>> Are you good? Can you teach me? At a previous project I got to know an
>> IM who started to teach me, but then he decided to quit chess since it
>> took too much time and stopped. =(
>>
>> Best regards, Daniel
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Learn Chess Online
> <https://www.chess.com/learn>
> Lessons
>
> Once you have learnt the basics, you can then play against AIs that
> will chat and try to improve your play.
> For example, but there are others as well.
> <https://noctie.ai/>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 16:43:34 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 10:43:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZCFvRZJZyCQaBtLi3WNhf+28WOGMCXBe-s_vsje_6OJg@mail.gmail.com>

I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the
parameters.  So how can that work?

Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme reactions
and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an upload. You
could presumably make every pleasure as intense as possible.

If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at all.
No feeling bad.

Is that what people want?  bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240209/ad9610ed/attachment.htm>

From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 17:22:24 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 10:22:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>

"Philosophy's just math sans rigor, sense, and practicality ? And math's
just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality..."

Related: "As Pratchett said, geography's just physics slowed with trees on
top"

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:33?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I totally agree and I would go further: philosophy IS unprovable physics.
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
> > BillK
> >
> > Ask an AI -
> >
> > Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
> >
> > The question of whether unprovable physics is philosophy is a complex
> > and nuanced one. It involves the intersection of two distinct fields -
> > physics and philosophy. To address this question comprehensively, it
> > is important to understand the nature of unprovable physics and its
> > relationship to philosophy.
> >
> > Unprovable Physics
> >
> > In the realm of physics, there are concepts and theories that are
> > difficult or even impossible to prove empirically. These may include
> > ideas related to the fundamental nature of the universe, such as the
> > existence of parallel universes, the behavior of matter at the
> > singularity of a black hole, or the ultimate fate of the cosmos. These
> > concepts often lie at the edge of our current understanding and may be
> > beyond the reach of experimental verification with existing
> > technology.
> >
> > One example is the concept of string theory, which proposes that
> > fundamental particles are not point-like but instead tiny, vibrating
> > strings. String theory has been influential in theoretical physics but
> > has yet to be confirmed through direct experimentation due to its
> > predictions being difficult to test with current technology.
> >
> > Philosophy
> >
> > Philosophy, on the other hand, deals with fundamental questions about
> > existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It involves
> > critical thinking and rational inquiry into these areas without
> > necessarily relying on empirical evidence. Philosophical inquiry often
> > delves into areas that are beyond the scope of empirical science and
> > seeks to understand concepts at a more abstract or conceptual level.
> >
> > Intersection of Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
> >
> > When considering unprovable physics, it becomes apparent that certain
> > concepts may overlap with philosophical inquiries. The inability to
> > empirically verify certain aspects of physics can lead to discussions
> > that resemble philosophical debates. For example, discussions about
> > the multiverse hypothesis or the nature of time in relation to
> > cosmological models can involve elements of both physics and
> > philosophy.
> >
> > In some cases, physicists may turn to philosophical reasoning when
> > grappling with unprovable aspects of their theories. This can involve
> > considerations about the nature of reality, the limits of scientific
> > knowledge, and the implications of different theoretical frameworks.
> > Similarly, philosophers may engage with unprovable physics by
> > examining its conceptual foundations and implications for broader
> > philosophical questions.
> >
> > Conclusion
> >
> > In conclusion, while unprovable physics and philosophy are distinct
> > disciplines, there is an intersection where they can inform each
> > other. Unprovable physics may raise philosophical questions about the
> > nature of reality and our understanding of it. However, it is
> > important to recognize that while there may be overlap, unprovable
> > physics remains primarily within the domain of scientific inquiry,
> > whereas philosophy operates in its own distinct sphere.
> >
> > Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:
> >
> > Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: The Stanford Encyclopedia of
> > Philosophy is a comprehensive online resource known for its
> > peer-reviewed articles on various philosophical topics. It provides
> > in-depth analyses and discussions on complex philosophical issues.
> >
> > Physics Today: Physics Today is a respected publication that covers a
> > wide range of topics in physics. It features articles written by
> > experts in the field and provides insights into current developments
> > and debates within physics.
> >
> > The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: This journal
> > publishes high-quality articles on the philosophy of science,
> > including discussions on the intersection between physics and
> > philosophy. It is a reputable source for scholarly work in this area.
> >
> > These sources were instrumental in providing authoritative information
> > on both unprovable physics and its relationship to philosophy.
> >
> > Philosophers want to know why physicists believe theories they can?t
> prove
> > <
> https://qz.com/590406/philosophers-want-to-know-why-physicists-believe-theories-they-cant-prove
> >
> >
> > Some Important Truths Are Scientifically Unprovable
> > <
> https://johnmccone.com/2019/03/29/some-important-truths-are-scientifically-unprovable/
> >
> > --------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240209/ec8655cc/attachment.htm>

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 19:58:32 2024
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 14:58:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024, 12:23 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "Philosophy's just math sans rigor, sense, and practicality ? And math's
> just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality..."
>
> Related: "As Pratchett said, geography's just physics slowed with trees on
> top"
>

And if anything like Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis is true,
physics is just the local geography of mathematics.

Jason



> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:33?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I totally agree and I would go further: philosophy IS unprovable physics.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
>> > BillK
>> >
>> > Ask an AI -
>> >
>> > Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>> >
>> > The question of whether unprovable physics is philosophy is a complex
>> > and nuanced one. It involves the intersection of two distinct fields -
>> > physics and philosophy. To address this question comprehensively, it
>> > is important to understand the nature of unprovable physics and its
>> > relationship to philosophy.
>> >
>> > Unprovable Physics
>> >
>> > In the realm of physics, there are concepts and theories that are
>> > difficult or even impossible to prove empirically. These may include
>> > ideas related to the fundamental nature of the universe, such as the
>> > existence of parallel universes, the behavior of matter at the
>> > singularity of a black hole, or the ultimate fate of the cosmos. These
>> > concepts often lie at the edge of our current understanding and may be
>> > beyond the reach of experimental verification with existing
>> > technology.
>> >
>> > One example is the concept of string theory, which proposes that
>> > fundamental particles are not point-like but instead tiny, vibrating
>> > strings. String theory has been influential in theoretical physics but
>> > has yet to be confirmed through direct experimentation due to its
>> > predictions being difficult to test with current technology.
>> >
>> > Philosophy
>> >
>> > Philosophy, on the other hand, deals with fundamental questions about
>> > existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It involves
>> > critical thinking and rational inquiry into these areas without
>> > necessarily relying on empirical evidence. Philosophical inquiry often
>> > delves into areas that are beyond the scope of empirical science and
>> > seeks to understand concepts at a more abstract or conceptual level.
>> >
>> > Intersection of Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>> >
>> > When considering unprovable physics, it becomes apparent that certain
>> > concepts may overlap with philosophical inquiries. The inability to
>> > empirically verify certain aspects of physics can lead to discussions
>> > that resemble philosophical debates. For example, discussions about
>> > the multiverse hypothesis or the nature of time in relation to
>> > cosmological models can involve elements of both physics and
>> > philosophy.
>> >
>> > In some cases, physicists may turn to philosophical reasoning when
>> > grappling with unprovable aspects of their theories. This can involve
>> > considerations about the nature of reality, the limits of scientific
>> > knowledge, and the implications of different theoretical frameworks.
>> > Similarly, philosophers may engage with unprovable physics by
>> > examining its conceptual foundations and implications for broader
>> > philosophical questions.
>> >
>> > Conclusion
>> >
>> > In conclusion, while unprovable physics and philosophy are distinct
>> > disciplines, there is an intersection where they can inform each
>> > other. Unprovable physics may raise philosophical questions about the
>> > nature of reality and our understanding of it. However, it is
>> > important to recognize that while there may be overlap, unprovable
>> > physics remains primarily within the domain of scientific inquiry,
>> > whereas philosophy operates in its own distinct sphere.
>> >
>> > Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:
>> >
>> > Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: The Stanford Encyclopedia of
>> > Philosophy is a comprehensive online resource known for its
>> > peer-reviewed articles on various philosophical topics. It provides
>> > in-depth analyses and discussions on complex philosophical issues.
>> >
>> > Physics Today: Physics Today is a respected publication that covers a
>> > wide range of topics in physics. It features articles written by
>> > experts in the field and provides insights into current developments
>> > and debates within physics.
>> >
>> > The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: This journal
>> > publishes high-quality articles on the philosophy of science,
>> > including discussions on the intersection between physics and
>> > philosophy. It is a reputable source for scholarly work in this area.
>> >
>> > These sources were instrumental in providing authoritative information
>> > on both unprovable physics and its relationship to philosophy.
>> >
>> > Philosophers want to know why physicists believe theories they can?t
>> prove
>> > <
>> https://qz.com/590406/philosophers-want-to-know-why-physicists-believe-theories-they-cant-prove
>> >
>> >
>> > Some Important Truths Are Scientifically Unprovable
>> > <
>> https://johnmccone.com/2019/03/29/some-important-truths-are-scientifically-unprovable/
>> >
>> > --------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240209/24e8c452/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 22:47:30 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2024 16:47:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbiiy_8sYu2DKk0f1M1qfFufFdJ=cb_q0k470-UmZ-uYA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Jason - are you a Terry Pratchett fan?  I TP - have read all his books
more than once.   bill w

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 2:00?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024, 12:23 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Philosophy's just math sans rigor, sense, and practicality ? And math's
>> just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality..."
>>
>> Related: "As Pratchett said, geography's just physics slowed with trees
>> on top"
>>
>
> And if anything like Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis is true,
> physics is just the local geography of mathematics.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:33?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I totally agree and I would go further: philosophy IS unprovable physics.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 10:25?PM BillK via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
>>> > BillK
>>> >
>>> > Ask an AI -
>>> >
>>> > Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>>> >
>>> > The question of whether unprovable physics is philosophy is a complex
>>> > and nuanced one. It involves the intersection of two distinct fields -
>>> > physics and philosophy. To address this question comprehensively, it
>>> > is important to understand the nature of unprovable physics and its
>>> > relationship to philosophy.
>>> >
>>> > Unprovable Physics
>>> >
>>> > In the realm of physics, there are concepts and theories that are
>>> > difficult or even impossible to prove empirically. These may include
>>> > ideas related to the fundamental nature of the universe, such as the
>>> > existence of parallel universes, the behavior of matter at the
>>> > singularity of a black hole, or the ultimate fate of the cosmos. These
>>> > concepts often lie at the edge of our current understanding and may be
>>> > beyond the reach of experimental verification with existing
>>> > technology.
>>> >
>>> > One example is the concept of string theory, which proposes that
>>> > fundamental particles are not point-like but instead tiny, vibrating
>>> > strings. String theory has been influential in theoretical physics but
>>> > has yet to be confirmed through direct experimentation due to its
>>> > predictions being difficult to test with current technology.
>>> >
>>> > Philosophy
>>> >
>>> > Philosophy, on the other hand, deals with fundamental questions about
>>> > existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It involves
>>> > critical thinking and rational inquiry into these areas without
>>> > necessarily relying on empirical evidence. Philosophical inquiry often
>>> > delves into areas that are beyond the scope of empirical science and
>>> > seeks to understand concepts at a more abstract or conceptual level.
>>> >
>>> > Intersection of Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>>> >
>>> > When considering unprovable physics, it becomes apparent that certain
>>> > concepts may overlap with philosophical inquiries. The inability to
>>> > empirically verify certain aspects of physics can lead to discussions
>>> > that resemble philosophical debates. For example, discussions about
>>> > the multiverse hypothesis or the nature of time in relation to
>>> > cosmological models can involve elements of both physics and
>>> > philosophy.
>>> >
>>> > In some cases, physicists may turn to philosophical reasoning when
>>> > grappling with unprovable aspects of their theories. This can involve
>>> > considerations about the nature of reality, the limits of scientific
>>> > knowledge, and the implications of different theoretical frameworks.
>>> > Similarly, philosophers may engage with unprovable physics by
>>> > examining its conceptual foundations and implications for broader
>>> > philosophical questions.
>>> >
>>> > Conclusion
>>> >
>>> > In conclusion, while unprovable physics and philosophy are distinct
>>> > disciplines, there is an intersection where they can inform each
>>> > other. Unprovable physics may raise philosophical questions about the
>>> > nature of reality and our understanding of it. However, it is
>>> > important to recognize that while there may be overlap, unprovable
>>> > physics remains primarily within the domain of scientific inquiry,
>>> > whereas philosophy operates in its own distinct sphere.
>>> >
>>> > Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:
>>> >
>>> > Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: The Stanford Encyclopedia of
>>> > Philosophy is a comprehensive online resource known for its
>>> > peer-reviewed articles on various philosophical topics. It provides
>>> > in-depth analyses and discussions on complex philosophical issues.
>>> >
>>> > Physics Today: Physics Today is a respected publication that covers a
>>> > wide range of topics in physics. It features articles written by
>>> > experts in the field and provides insights into current developments
>>> > and debates within physics.
>>> >
>>> > The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: This journal
>>> > publishes high-quality articles on the philosophy of science,
>>> > including discussions on the intersection between physics and
>>> > philosophy. It is a reputable source for scholarly work in this area.
>>> >
>>> > These sources were instrumental in providing authoritative information
>>> > on both unprovable physics and its relationship to philosophy.
>>> >
>>> > Philosophers want to know why physicists believe theories they can?t
>>> prove
>>> > <
>>> https://qz.com/590406/philosophers-want-to-know-why-physicists-believe-theories-they-cant-prove
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Some Important Truths Are Scientifically Unprovable
>>> > <
>>> https://johnmccone.com/2019/03/29/some-important-truths-are-scientifically-unprovable/
>>> >
>>> > --------------
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240209/8d8a7666/attachment-0001.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 01:09:42 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 01:09:42 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgCSLMebAJXF_RziWMTNhr_f_a3RxN2rxVoDrerDyd90A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 9 Feb 2024 at 20:01, Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024, 12:23 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> "Philosophy's just math sans rigor, sense, and practicality ? And math's
just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality..."
>> Related: "As Pratchett said, geography's just physics slowed with trees
on top"
>
> And if anything like Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis is true,
physics is just the local geography of mathematics.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________


I asked several AIs the question:
Is Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis Science or Metaphysics or
Philosophy?

The answers all seemed to be saying that it has elements of all three,
but because of untestability, it is more in the realm of Metaphysics or
Philosophy.
BillK


One sample AI answer:
Introduction

The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) is a concept proposed by
physicist Max Tegmark, which suggests that the universe is fundamentally a
mathematical structure. This idea has sparked debates on whether it falls
under the realm of science, metaphysics, or philosophy. In this essay, we
will explore the nature of MUH and evaluate its classification.
The Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

Tegmark?s MUH proposes that the universe is a mathematical structure, and
all physical phenomena can be described by mathematical equations. The
hypothesis consists of four levels of increasing ambition: (1) Level I:
Mathematical description of the physical world, (2) Level II: The universe
is a computation, (3) Level III: The universe is a specific mathematical
structure, and (4) Level IV: Our observation corresponds to a single point
in the mathematical structure.
Science, Metaphysics, or Philosophy?

Determining whether MUH is science, metaphysics, or philosophy is not
straightforward, as it involves elements from all three domains. However,
we can analyze its components to better understand its classification.

*Science:* MUH?s Level I, which deals with mathematical descriptions of the
physical world, can be considered scientific. This level aligns with the
scientific method, where mathematical equations are used to explain and
predict physical phenomena.

*Metaphysics:* Level II and III of MUH, which propose that the universe is
a computation or a specific mathematical structure, lean more towards
metaphysics. These levels delve into the nature of reality and the
fundamental structure of the universe, which are typically metaphysical
concerns.

*Philosophy:* The philosophical aspect of MUH becomes evident in Level IV,
where the hypothesis connects the universe?s mathematical structure to our
observations. This level raises questions about the nature of consciousness
and the relationship between the external world and our perception of it.
Conclusion

In conclusion, Tegmark?s Mathematical Universe Hypothesis cannot be easily
classified as solely science, metaphysics, or philosophy. It incorporates
elements from all three domains, with Level I being scientific, Levels II
and III leaning towards metaphysics, and Level IV being philosophical. The
hypothesis serves as an interdisciplinary bridge, sparking discussions and
insights at the intersection of science, metaphysics, and philosophy.

---------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240210/d6f2b415/attachment.htm>

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 07:30:57 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 00:30:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnD0Lu+dprYAoqJtZM5wkWz74AR8GA99YOjPQpYOLbRCxQ@mail.gmail.com>

When the atomists of Greece proposed their theory it was unprovable,
but that didn't mean that it was unprovable forever.

I think creatives of the future may come up with ways to test things
that are beyond our current ken to prove. That seems like a safe bet.

-Kelly

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 2:24?PM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
> BillK
>
> Ask an AI -
>
> Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>
> The question of whether unprovable physics is philosophy is a complex
> and nuanced one. It involves the intersection of two distinct fields -
> physics and philosophy. To address this question comprehensively, it
> is important to understand the nature of unprovable physics and its
> relationship to philosophy.
>
> Unprovable Physics
>
> In the realm of physics, there are concepts and theories that are
> difficult or even impossible to prove empirically. These may include
> ideas related to the fundamental nature of the universe, such as the
> existence of parallel universes, the behavior of matter at the
> singularity of a black hole, or the ultimate fate of the cosmos. These
> concepts often lie at the edge of our current understanding and may be
> beyond the reach of experimental verification with existing
> technology.
>
> One example is the concept of string theory, which proposes that
> fundamental particles are not point-like but instead tiny, vibrating
> strings. String theory has been influential in theoretical physics but
> has yet to be confirmed through direct experimentation due to its
> predictions being difficult to test with current technology.
>
> Philosophy
>
> Philosophy, on the other hand, deals with fundamental questions about
> existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. It involves
> critical thinking and rational inquiry into these areas without
> necessarily relying on empirical evidence. Philosophical inquiry often
> delves into areas that are beyond the scope of empirical science and
> seeks to understand concepts at a more abstract or conceptual level.
>
> Intersection of Unprovable Physics and Philosophy
>
> When considering unprovable physics, it becomes apparent that certain
> concepts may overlap with philosophical inquiries. The inability to
> empirically verify certain aspects of physics can lead to discussions
> that resemble philosophical debates. For example, discussions about
> the multiverse hypothesis or the nature of time in relation to
> cosmological models can involve elements of both physics and
> philosophy.
>
> In some cases, physicists may turn to philosophical reasoning when
> grappling with unprovable aspects of their theories. This can involve
> considerations about the nature of reality, the limits of scientific
> knowledge, and the implications of different theoretical frameworks.
> Similarly, philosophers may engage with unprovable physics by
> examining its conceptual foundations and implications for broader
> philosophical questions.
>
> Conclusion
>
> In conclusion, while unprovable physics and philosophy are distinct
> disciplines, there is an intersection where they can inform each
> other. Unprovable physics may raise philosophical questions about the
> nature of reality and our understanding of it. However, it is
> important to recognize that while there may be overlap, unprovable
> physics remains primarily within the domain of scientific inquiry,
> whereas philosophy operates in its own distinct sphere.
>
> Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used:
>
> Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: The Stanford Encyclopedia of
> Philosophy is a comprehensive online resource known for its
> peer-reviewed articles on various philosophical topics. It provides
> in-depth analyses and discussions on complex philosophical issues.
>
> Physics Today: Physics Today is a respected publication that covers a
> wide range of topics in physics. It features articles written by
> experts in the field and provides insights into current developments
> and debates within physics.
>
> The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science: This journal
> publishes high-quality articles on the philosophy of science,
> including discussions on the intersection between physics and
> philosophy. It is a reputable source for scholarly work in this area.
>
> These sources were instrumental in providing authoritative information
> on both unprovable physics and its relationship to philosophy.
>
> Philosophers want to know why physicists believe theories they can?t prove
> <https://qz.com/590406/philosophers-want-to-know-why-physicists-believe-theories-they-cant-prove>
>
> Some Important Truths Are Scientifically Unprovable
> <https://johnmccone.com/2019/03/29/some-important-truths-are-scientifically-unprovable/>
> --------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 07:51:11 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 00:51:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAxazqN6ELurt2Ghonm+Dm25ecNr3Uv6vKD-+x-peAhNg@mail.gmail.com>

I find this topic interesting. I waffle back and forth on the idea
that this is dangerous to the athletes' long term health and a more
libertarian thought of let them do what they want to do to achieve
what they want to achieve. But there is the arms race that seems like
it will always end with needing to take the biggest chances in order
to have the best chance of winning. Consider an alcoholic's olympics
where you are trying to drink other people under the table. Is that OK
because people should be allowed to do what they want? Or is
glorifying it as a spectator sport making it worse? We've always had
our gladiators, and today at least there is some concept of consent,
so we've gotten past the Roman state of the art there.

I do think that there is a middle ground available where people can
agree to different competitions with different sets of rules. Sort of
like cable, then YouTube blew up the three networks... perhaps a more
fractured approach to sports is needed. Then you won't have trans
women competing in the NCAA because they'll have their own place to
compete. And you won't have those who use the most dangerous chemicals
that could kill you today competing against simple anabolic steroids
that just make you impotent and give you cancer later.

We already have the octagon for people for whom boxing doesn't seem
competitive enough. The olympics have gone from 9 sports in the 1896
olympics to 40 today (including winter olympics). I believe this count
takes running as one sport despite the length, but don't quote me on
that. They said there are more events than sports... so I'm guessing
as to what constitutes an event vs a sport.

Anyways, a more fractured sporting world is a world where more people
get to participate meaningfully. I'm glad there is a record for
marathons run by a 90 year old. But even the Guiness people, who are
pretty irresponsible in many fields, have stopped taking new entries
on the record for "longest time without sleep" and probably other
things as well. There's enthusiasm, and then there's downright
self-destructive. It's a hard line to draw in a world of extreme
sports, but maybe this is a way forward. The Catholic church exploding
into thousands of brands of Christianity shows that schism is the way
with people... and why wouldn't it be that way with sports too? The
big powerful organizations like the Olympic committee, the NBA, the
PGA, the NCAA and all the rest are going to lose power in this world
of fractured sporting, but they really can't stop that from happening
now, can they?

-Kelly

On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:26?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics
> By Loz Blain   February 07, 2024
>
> <https://newatlas.com/sports/enhanced-games-olympics-steroids/>
> Quotes:
> It seems the Enhanced Games are on like Donkey Kong, with
> multi-million dollar investments from Peter Thiel and other
> high-profile VCs. Performance-enhancing drugs are welcome ? indeed,
> this could become an early preview of a transhuman Olympics.
>
> You could argue the Tour de France beat them to it ? or indeed the
> regular Olympics themselves; of the top six fastest men ever to run
> the 100-meter sprint, only Usain Bolt has never tested positive for
> banned substances.
>
> And maybe we're being too precious about the sanctity of the human
> body, in an age where bionics, brain chips, AI, gene editing and all
> manner of transhumanist technologies are coming within reach. If this
> stuff can make us better, maybe we should let it, and maybe the
> Enhanced Games are a symbolic step in that direction.
> ------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 08:00:56 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 01:00:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi flood was: RE: California storms
In-Reply-To: <004601da58fe$e692f8a0$b3b8e9e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armgwVnSN3YsFjL18YGwpdLxFTkjhVQP6DuaPH9FTGRpBvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101da58f9$d02f1b20$708d5160$@rainier66.com>
 <004601da58fe$e692f8a0$b3b8e9e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnAhbdPBVshitjnUv=EgF-skeBWG1eeLC7FX2TMGY3VLGw@mail.gmail.com>

I listened to this a month ago... about how the silt from the
Mississippi has been filling up the gulf of mexico...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Qqslr5ytY&t=1274s

You might find it interesting just how much is down there.

On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 6:18?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
> ...
>
> >...Consequently... plenty of people come to the USA and choose homeless
> here rather than homeful wherever they come from.  If one is going to live
> outdoors, an overpass or under a bridge makes perfect sense...The masses
> want freedom and capitalism, even if it means they must camp out here to get
> there.  spike
>
>
> I have been all over the map on this one, so I decided to post something
> over on a yet-uncommented part of the thought-map.
>
> The high schools play a game named for Enrico Fermi who was really good at
> this: estimating the order of magnitude.  An example of a fermi question
> would be: How many neutrons are in a fig newton?
>
> A good player would estimate its mass at about 10 to 20 grams, mostly
> carbon, a mole of carbon is about 12 grams, so about a mole times six
> neutrons per carbon atom, so 3.6E24 neutrons approximately, and depending on
> how you estimate mass, the answer might be either 24 or 25.
>
> Local flooding: there is a footbridge across the local waterway.  I was over
> there during last year's rains and noticed that the water is the color of
> chocolate milk.  I found a cup and scooped out a water sample, let it settle
> and observed that you aren't far off if you estimate the water is 10%
> sediment by mass, perhaps 5% by volume.  There really is that much silt and
> soil washing down that channel.
>
> I was over there yesterday and estimated, Fermi style, the average depth
> across there, about a meter, and its width, about ten meters.  When the
> water is that color, as it is now, the flow rate is likely higher than a
> meter a second, but a meter per second as a Fermi-ey estimate will get you
> there.  So... after a hard rain, as we have been having all week, about ten
> cubic meters per second flow rate down that channel, at about 10% silt.
>
> Fermi question: in kg, the mass of silt carried by the Penitentia Creek
> after a hard rain per second.  Answer: 3.  10^3 kg per second.  A ton of
> silt per second.  This process can go on for hours, or days.
>
> Second question: where does all that silt go?
>
> It gives one a new sense of how deltas form, and what happens when we need
> the space to build homes, so we defeat nature's course and build a single
> narrow channel where a vast river delta used to be.
>
> Prediction: eventually that channel will silt up and restrict flow rate,
> causing water to rise along the course of that river.  Consequence: the
> homeless living under those bridges will get washed out more regularly.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 08:06:57 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 01:06:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
Message-ID: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>

We hear a lot about global warming and how that's going to ruin the
planet. We even occasionally hear about fossil water tables being
lowered and how that affects agriculture. But we hear much less about
soil depletion and how that might affect the future. Soil takes
thousands of years to accumulate, but is depleted by farming
accelerated erosion to perhaps 1% per year. What that means of course
is that we'll have less than half the soil in the middle of the USA in
80 years than we have now, and that could lead to a difficult
situation for any organic humans left at that point. I wonder if there
would ever be a point where "fossil" soils, such as those in various
deltas around the world, would be mined, somehow desalinated,
reconditioned and put back onto fields... It's a little bit like
taking carbon out of the atmosphere... and that seems unlikely to be a
huge thing anytime soon... but we're here thinking big thoughts about
big futures, so I'm curious if anyone has given this particular idea
any deep consideration.

-Kelly

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb 10 14:37:17 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 06:37:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech,
 F1-style angle on athletics
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAxazqN6ELurt2Ghonm+Dm25ecNr3Uv6vKD-+x-peAhNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjKRrN0N-NxNLSkVwodNrPP+SPn72ADrBYP7_Vek+Db8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnAxazqN6ELurt2Ghonm+Dm25ecNr3Uv6vKD-+x-peAhNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007301da5c2e$a60a39f0$f21eadd0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat

>...Subject: Re: [ExI] "Olympics on steroids" takes a high-tech, F1-style angle on athletics

>... But there is the arms race that seems like it will always end with needing to take the biggest chances in order to have the best chance of winning. Consider an alcoholic's olympics ...

Ja.  People (especially the young) will do self-destructive things to win.  A good example is the now-mostly-extinct philosophy in training: no pain, no gain.  So... plenty of high school cross country runners would train with weights on our ankles, under the theory that it would help us build endurance and muscle bulk.  It caused knee damage from repetitive strain injury.  But we didn't care, that won't show up until later.  We want to win races NOW!


 >...The Catholic church exploding into thousands of brands of Christianity shows that schism is the way with people... -Kelly

Point taken, and I agree, however the specific example of fracturing of Christianity has an alternative and interesting explanation.  In any faith organization, a hierarchy forms naturally.  This must be supported financially somehow.  The retired ranking members of that hierarchy must be supplied with a pension.  

Over time this obligation to support the hierarchy creates a financial incentive to form a schism which is free of that burden.  So... the schism forms and grows until it develops its own financial incentives for breakaway groups to free themselves from the obligation of supporting the past.  This can be done over a minor disagreement in dogma, which makes faith groups in general highly susceptible to fractionation.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 15:19:32 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 15:19:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 at 08:10, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> We hear a lot about global warming and how that's going to ruin the
> planet. We even occasionally hear about fossil water tables being
> lowered and how that affects agriculture. But we hear much less about
> soil depletion and how that might affect the future. Soil takes
> thousands of years to accumulate, but is depleted by farming
> accelerated erosion to perhaps 1% per year. What that means of course
> is that we'll have less than half the soil in the middle of the USA in
> 80 years than we have now, and that could lead to a difficult
> situation for any organic humans left at that point. I wonder if there
> would ever be a point where "fossil" soils, such as those in various
> deltas around the world, would be mined, somehow desalinated,
> reconditioned and put back onto fields... It's a little bit like
> taking carbon out of the atmosphere... and that seems unlikely to be a
> huge thing anytime soon... but we're here thinking big thoughts about
> big futures, so I'm curious if anyone has given this particular idea
> any deep consideration.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________


The characteristic of humans to ignore increasing problems until they
become serious is a well-documented phenomenon. This behaviour is
often attributed to the perceived expense and inconvenience associated
with addressing these problems, as well as the consideration of how
soon they are likely to impact one's lifestyle.

Climate change was once viewed as a future threat. Now we see rising
sea levels, extreme weather events, and melting glaciers as reminders.
And when my winter ski holiday is facing a lack of snow on the best
runs, it is getting serious! :)
Ground water depletion is also getting increasing attention as wells
dry up worldwide, forcing communities into urgent solutions.

Top soil depletion is a longer term issue, decades in the future.
So we hope that we can leave that problem for future generations to face.
That might be a big mistake, if we fail to deal with our own more immediate
problems.
Can we pass all the environmental issues on to future generations?



BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb 10 16:52:57 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 08:52:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
...
>...Top soil depletion is a longer term issue, decades in the future.
So we hope that we can leave that problem for future generations to face.
That might be a big mistake, if we fail to deal with our own more immediate
problems.
Can we pass all the environmental issues on to future generations?

BillK
_______________________________________________


BillK, we are dealing with those kinds of problems and solving them for
future generations, in a sense.  We are modifying cultural norms away from
traditional family life and reproduction.  That means future generations are
likely to be smaller.  Fewer people means lower reliance on topsoil, on
energy resources, on... well... OK, doesn't work for snow skiing:

>...And when my winter ski holiday is facing a lack of snow on the best
runs, it is getting serious! :)...

Well OK, having fewer people doesn't solve that particular problem.  It
might make it worse: fewer willing to operate the lodge and bring you
apres-ski relaxation, the tea and buttered scones (or crumpets (apologies
sir, I am not up to speed on British terminology (you lads don't really
speak proper American over there, ja?  (it's more "English" spoken in
England.))))

I have a vision of a sustainable world, with fewer but better-cared-for and
wealthier proles, perhaps a couple billion in sustainable equilibrium,
well-educated proles living comfortable, healthy, well-fed lives.  We often
think of the term proles as uneducated and poor, but if you read Orwell's
book, not necessarily.  Our middle and upper class people are proles.

spike




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 17:44:19 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 09:44:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 8:54?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

snip

> I have a vision of a sustainable world, with fewer but better-cared-for and
> wealthier proles, perhaps a couple billion in sustainable equilibrium,
> well-educated proles living comfortable, healthy, well-fed lives.

For someone on this list, that's remarkably backward.  Space colonies
would allow a thousand times the current population, It's hard to say
how many uploading would accommodate, but it is certainly in the
trillions.

Keith


From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Feb 10 18:18:16 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 10:18:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 8:54?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

snip

>>... I have a vision of a sustainable world, with fewer but 
> better-cared-for and wealthier proles, perhaps a couple billion in 
> sustainable equilibrium, well-educated proles living comfortable, healthy, well-fed lives.

>...For someone on this list, that's remarkably backward.  Space colonies would allow a thousand times the current population, It's hard to say how many uploading would accommodate, but it is certainly in the trillions.

Keith


Clarification Keith: I meant a coupla billion meat-world humans living 8 to 10 decade lives on this rock.  I don't count space colonies in that 2E9 number, each of which must be self-sustaining, nor did I count uploads, for it is not clear how one counts those.

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 22:19:36 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 14:19:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 10:18?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 8:54?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >>... I have a vision of a sustainable world, with fewer but
> > better-cared-for and wealthier proles, perhaps a couple billion in
> > sustainable equilibrium, well-educated proles living comfortable, healthy, well-fed lives.
>
> >...For someone on this list, that's remarkably backward.  Space colonies would allow a thousand times the current population, It's hard to say how many uploading would accommodate, but it is certainly in the trillions.
>
> Keith
>
> Clarification Keith: I meant a coupla billion meat-world humans living 8 to 10 decade lives on this rock.

This seems unlikely.  If we get reversible uploading and the uploaded
state is a more enjoyable life, the physical state population will
collapse toward zero.  And why 8-10 decades?  If life extension
happens at all, why would it stop at 100 years?

Keith

>  I don't count space colonies in that 2E9 number, each of which must be self-sustaining, nor did I count uploads, for it is not clear how one counts those.
>
> spike
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 11 03:58:20 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 19:58:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 

>
>>... Clarification Keith: I meant a coupla billion meat-world humans living 8 to 10 decade lives on this rock.

>...This seems unlikely.  If we get reversible uploading and the uploaded state is a more enjoyable life, the physical state population will collapse toward zero.  And why 8-10 decades?  If life extension happens at all, why would it stop at 100 years?

Keith




Keith there are a number of possibilities, such as:

An uploaded life along with a meat world existence are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  

We might find out there is value in a meat-world pre-existence to uploading.  

There might be a significant fraction of humanity that intentionally and actively resists uploading, just as a significant fraction of humanity today eschews modern technology.

There might be some experiences and jobs that meat-world humans can do which uploads need.

spike






From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 10:30:09 2024
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2024 05:30:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjMgVgRCSd=cHKojWsR=5G=5_VMAu1=pHvwPjx54qTauA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 3:00?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2024, 12:23 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "Philosophy's just math sans rigor, sense, and practicality ? And math's
>> just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality..."
>>
>> Related: "As Pratchett said, geography's just physics slowed with trees
>> on top"
>>
>
> And if anything like Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis is true,
> physics is just the local geography of mathematics.
>


### Beautifully said!

Rafal
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240211/369bef07/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 11 12:50:21 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2024 04:50:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Is Unprovable Physics Philosophy?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjMgVgRCSd=cHKojWsR=5G=5_VMAu1=pHvwPjx54qTauA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhAG5wjsO2mE7mPb1pT+J9pU+FJDh=Z0WtS960r=4tHSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycEnU=jbpaZQ+VOeGhZ1wxz-n74mRwCW11kH5PQ56LN5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkRZca_ZDkKJFBtw8HgOAmSrDti3eMFyxEoaq7pamWW37g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhXAPgTpuZC=VESTtNABQjdjnLi8sVc-s5FGZfqazbiWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjMgVgRCSd=cHKojWsR=5G=5_VMAu1=pHvwPjx54qTauA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801da5ce8$dff2f2a0$9fd8d7e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat



 

 

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024 at 3:00?PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

On Fri, Feb 9, 2024, 12:23 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

"Philosophy's just math sans rigor, sense, and practicality ? And math's just physics unconstrained by precepts of reality..."

 

Related: "As Pratchett said, geography's just physics slowed with trees on top"

 

And if anything like Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis is true, physics is just the local geography of mathematics.

 

 

### Beautifully said!

 

Rafal 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rafal!

 

Welcome home, doctor!

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240211/20bffd56/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 19:14:16 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2024 11:14:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6fyPZGvL5wrgVm-kBjuZq+iwihDF4CpQt1c=aQN=5XNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 7:58?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> >
> >>... Clarification Keith: I meant a coupla billion meat-world humans living 8 to 10 decade lives on this rock.
>
> >...This seems unlikely.  If we get reversible uploading and the uploaded state is a more enjoyable life, the physical state population will collapse toward zero.  And why 8-10 decades?  If life extension happens at all, why would it stop at 100 years?
>
> Keith

>
> Keith there are a number of possibilities, such as:
>
> An uploaded life along with a meat world existence are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I have written fiction on this very point.  In the fictional world,
the "powers that be" are trying to maintain a physical world
population in the face of a much more attractive uploaded existence.
They are having a hard time.

> We might find out there is value in a meat-world pre-existence to uploading.

In my fictional world, reproduction just does not happen in the
uploaded state.  I suppose generating new individuals from whole cloth
is possible, but I don't see why or how.  On the other hand, we might
share the simulated environment with AIs.

> There might be a significant fraction of humanity that intentionally and actively resists uploading, just as a significant fraction of humanity today eschews modern technology.

No doubt.  But even the Amish use cell phones.  Some kinds of
technology have become ubiquitous.

> There might be some experiences and jobs that meat-world humans can do which uploads need.

Given nanotechnology, that seems unlikely.  I did consider writing a
story where the last human was given the job of watching the blinky
blinky lights for the uploaded world and when they quit, pushing the
reboot button.

Keith

> spike
>
>
>
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 12 04:26:58 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2024 20:26:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6fyPZGvL5wrgVm-kBjuZq+iwihDF4CpQt1c=aQN=5XNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6fyPZGvL5wrgVm-kBjuZq+iwihDF4CpQt1c=aQN=5XNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014601da5d6b$b81579f0$28406dd0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
...

>>... There might be a significant fraction of humanity that intentionally and actively resists uploading, just as a significant fraction of humanity today eschews modern technology.

>...No doubt.  But even the Amish use cell phones.  Some kinds of technology have become ubiquitous...Keith

Keith I have a group of (not very close) relatives who we think descended from four Hutterite families who went into Western Virginia (now West Virginia) in about the 1680s.  They live along a no-outlet road in the mountains (ja, it's a holler) they have no cell phone coverage up there, no radio or TV signals, or if so not strong enough to bother trying to receive.  

I wrote a paper letter yesterday.  Oh I don't like doing that, but I have no way to communicate with them otherwise.  I don't very often.

Fun aside: a bunch of them did AncestryDNA, which is how we found out about their existence up there.

If we get uploading, there will be pockets of humanity which scarcely heard of it and want nothing to do with it.

spike





From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 05:10:16 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2024 21:10:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <014601da5d6b$b81579f0$28406dd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6fyPZGvL5wrgVm-kBjuZq+iwihDF4CpQt1c=aQN=5XNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014601da5d6b$b81579f0$28406dd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4z_ewVg3tOkZ35r=nSrpw4JaNJ_v4fagvCQBVuOHfOoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 8:27?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> ...
> >>... There might be a significant fraction of humanity that intentionally and actively resists uploading, just as a significant fraction of humanity today eschews modern technology.
>
> >...No doubt.  But even the Amish use cell phones.  Some kinds of technology have become ubiquitous...Keith
>
> Keith I have a group of (not very close) relatives who we think descended from four Hutterite families who went into Western Virginia (now West Virginia) in about the 1680s.  They live along a no-outlet road in the mountains (ja, it's a holler) they have no cell phone coverage up there, no radio or TV signals, or if so not strong enough to bother trying to receive.
>
> I wrote a paper letter yesterday.  Oh I don't like doing that, but I have no way to communicate with them otherwise.  I don't very often.
>
> Fun aside: a bunch of them did AncestryDNA, which is how we found out about their existence up there.

That's very strange.  People who don't use cell phones but did do DNA
testing.  Why?  Were they trying to figure out who they could marry?
I don't think you can get the results except on a computer.  How did
they do that?  Library?  One or more of them must have had computer
skills.

Hutterites have a high birth rate.  After that long there must be far
more of them than the land can support.

Do they have electric power?  Refrigerators?  The anti-technology
Doukhobors resisted electricity, schooling, etc for decades.
Eventually, they adapted.

I think the kids have to go to school.

> If we get uploading, there will be pockets of humanity which scarcely heard of it and want nothing to do with it.

Depending on how far and how fast it goes, and what provisions are
made for those who stay behind, it could get very lonely.

Keith

> spike
>
>
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 12 05:23:53 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2024 21:23:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4z_ewVg3tOkZ35r=nSrpw4JaNJ_v4fagvCQBVuOHfOoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6fyPZGvL5wrgVm-kBjuZq+iwihDF4CpQt1c=aQN=5XNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014601da5d6b$b81579f0$28406dd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4z_ewVg3tOkZ35r=nSrpw4JaNJ_v4fagvCQBVuOHfOoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019101da5d73$abf25aa0$03d70fe0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 

>>... Fun aside: a bunch of them did AncestryDNA, which is how we found out about their existence up there.

>...That's very strange.  People who don't use cell phones but did do DNA
testing.  Why?  

Keith I don't know all the deetz on it, but I have a third cousin and genealogy collaborator who is a PhD, now working at the University of Central Florida.  She is a former Mennonite, but left that organization.  She knew about them somehow, as they are also 4th cousins to her.  She made contact with them, gained their trust, perhaps because of similarities between Mennonites and Hutterites.  I don't know much about that stuff, no more than Sam Cooke knew about a science book or the French he took.  A research grant bought them a bunch of these DNA kits in 2013, which my cousin took up there and had them use.  The results are fascinating.

The contact who ran the show for us has parents who are double second cousins to each other, and both pairs of his grandparents are second cousins to each other.  They get it as far as the drawbacks of overbreeding.  People don't go in there, but sometimes they come out, which is how they ended up distantly related to me.  One did, in (we think) about 1810 or so.

Regarding computer skills, the guy who was our contact up there works for the county as a conservation officer.  He has a land line in his office.  I have never called him and don't have his number.  I don't know if a land line can still be used to get a website, but I assume the old telephone modem would work.  

Does anyone here know anyone who uses a telephone modem?  Or knows if those are still operable?  Or knows any reason why they couldn't still work?

Keith I am sending you some interesting data offlist.

spike





From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 12 16:19:22 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 08:19:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
Message-ID: <001c01da5dcf$3d83c430$b88b4c90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Keith your commentary on uploads has my wheels spinning.  I like it when my
wheels spin.

 

Yesterday I was at Berkeley for a Science Olympiad tournament.  It attracted
the kind of high school students who care more about science than the
football tournament yesterday, which has become a national cultural
celebration of a child's war-simulating terrain acquisition game.  (Football
fans, don't jump me, I am just poking a little fun at the non-nerd crowd
(sheesh, sensa huma.))

 

It was a beautiful sunny spring day, birds chirping, trees in bloom.  A
mariachi band was strumming and the caballero finding young couples and
singing love songs to the likely bride to be (or considering this is a
college campus, the likely temporary bed partner (sheesh sensa huma.))

 

I followed the music group and listened to the songs.  I know only a little
Spanish, typical of anyone who has lived for decades in California, but
enough to understand what the singer is doing: simple beautiful sincere
melodies about how he feels about his sweetheart.

 

I am nowhere anywhere on the sexual preference spectrum, or if so, waaaaay
the hell over on the ultra-hetero end of it, completely outta sight of
anything else.  But listening to this guy sing about how he feels about his
senorita, the most beautiful woman in the world and how he loves her with
all his heart (and so on as the guitars strum behind him and the trumpets so
on) oh my goodness, even I, EVEN I. was getting a boner, just listening to
this guy and my bride wasn't even there.  Of course I watched the young lady
where he was singing to a couple, and she melted in a gooey sweet puddle.
Of course she took her sweetheart immediately back to her dorm room.  Hey,
we were humans first, before becoming geeks second.  

 

There is a good explanation for why there are so many people south of the
Rio Grande: Spanish a great language for that kind of thing, way better than
English.

 

My point, one which I will expand on later (I gotta scoot, load the SciOly
equipment in my truck back into the storage area) is that we should think
about experiences like mine at Berkeley yesterday when we discuss uploading.

 

For instance. what if. I upload, and realize I never have experiences like
one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at Berkeley,
listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies into situations
where a next generation of meat-being is given a chance to come into
existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded existence is, Imagine I
miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to see to it that the
feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt again, into the
future, indefinitely.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/a5764cf6/attachment.htm>

From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 17:28:12 2024
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 17:28:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <mailman.19.1707678896.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.19.1707678896.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1292287015.2219090.1707758892419@mail.yahoo.com>

 Regarding Kelly's original point, yes people have thought seriously about it. My local library had in a copy of "
Sixty Harvests Left: How to Reach a Nature-Friendly Future" by Philip Limbery. There are people deeply concerned by topsoil depletion, but like so many other crises that are decades from being critical, they don't register as a mainstream political or news interest.
?Hey, so you're using policies that will turn your entire nation into a repeat of the great dustbowl - maybe there'll be somewhere on the planet we can all be Okies together and live out the John Steinbeck character experience?
Yours,Tom, living in the UK and also concerned about the AMOC collapsing and wrecking the climate of his nation.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/0d3aca07/attachment.htm>

From john at ziaspace.com  Mon Feb 12 18:06:42 2024
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 18:06:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Temporary problem - please try again
Message-ID: <1e285724-bf48-9216-3243-cad5d6e2f357@ziaspace.com>

Hi,

Reverse DNS was screwy, so some of our servers weren't talking with others. 
That is temporarily fixed, so if your message didn't make it to the list, 
please resend.

Thanks!
John


From ExiMod at protonmail.com  Mon Feb 12 18:08:33 2024
From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 18:08:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Test email
Message-ID: <WfkuNkG51jevOH7V-rrZjT_fbmutnp_ajb-nL2lFdSV5DYQbInvQs7SVXDSfIBfHQ91apUaSuxf2KSvCmekjJzbDocyFDBI7Ztw6590ZGv4=@protonmail.com>

Testing email server fix.

ExiMod
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/e80e1568/attachment.htm>

From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 20:35:18 2024
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 20:35:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <1292287015.2219090.1707758892419@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.19.1707678896.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1292287015.2219090.1707758892419@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <748849982.2348476.1707770118889@mail.yahoo.com>

 
  Regarding Kelly's original point, yes people have thought seriously about it. My local library had in a copy of "
Sixty Harvests Left: How to Reach a Nature-Friendly Future" by Philip Limbery. There are people deeply concerned by topsoil depletion, but like so many other crises that are decades from being critical, they don't register as a mainstream political or news interest.
?Hey, so you're using policies that will turn your entire nation into a repeat of the great dustbowl - maybe there'll be somewhere on the planet we can all be Okies together and live out the John Steinbeck character experience?
Yours,Tom, living in the UK and also concerned about the AMOC collapsing and wrecking the climate of his nation.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/956a23e0/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 20:48:35 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 12:48:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4z_ewVg3tOkZ35r=nSrpw4JaNJ_v4fagvCQBVuOHfOoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009c01da5c41$9a059e20$ce10da60$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB49OPGyM77aYBrGp3cz6xHeykMFjBYXJ5Cuf6Q+e6Rjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001a01da5c4d$84d500c0$8e7f0240$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7FTqBgE1j9mBRB9sPoaomLG2g_4Dog0a-tUR3m8B6Uvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da5c9e$8e3929b0$aaab7d10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB6fyPZGvL5wrgVm-kBjuZq+iwihDF4CpQt1c=aQN=5XNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014601da5d6b$b81579f0$28406dd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4z_ewVg3tOkZ35r=nSrpw4JaNJ_v4fagvCQBVuOHfOoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7HedBqc+5w1oy1ThhAq-UeOyKDQ_1Ms4iy3W8-c1rh5w@mail.gmail.com>

resend per request


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 9:10?PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
To: <spike at rainier66.com>
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>, BillK <pharos at gmail.com>


On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 8:27?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> ...
> >>... There might be a significant fraction of humanity that intentionally and actively resists uploading, just as a significant fraction of humanity today eschews modern technology.
>
> >...No doubt.  But even the Amish use cell phones.  Some kinds of technology have become ubiquitous...Keith
>
> Keith I have a group of (not very close) relatives who we think descended from four Hutterite families who went into Western Virginia (now West Virginia) in about the 1680s.  They live along a no-outlet road in the mountains (ja, it's a holler) they have no cell phone coverage up there, no radio or TV signals, or if so not strong enough to bother trying to receive.
>
> I wrote a paper letter yesterday.  Oh I don't like doing that, but I have no way to communicate with them otherwise.  I don't very often.
>
> Fun aside: a bunch of them did AncestryDNA, which is how we found out about their existence up there.

That's very strange.  People who don't use cell phones but did do DNA
testing.  Why?  Were they trying to figure out who they could marry?
I don't think you can get the results except on a computer.  How did
they do that?  Library?  One or more of them must have had computer
skills.

Hutterites have a high birth rate.  After that long there must be far
more of them than the land can support.

Do they have electric power?  Refrigerators?  The anti-technology
Doukhobors resisted electricity, schooling, etc for decades.
Eventually, they adapted.

I think the kids have to go to school.

> If we get uploading, there will be pockets of humanity which scarcely heard of it and want nothing to do with it.

Depending on how far and how fast it goes, and what provisions are
made for those who stay behind, it could get very lonely.

Keith

> spike
>
>
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 12 22:17:15 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 14:17:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] FW: uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <001c01da5dcf$3d83c430$b88b4c90$@rainier66.com>
References: <001c01da5dcf$3d83c430$b88b4c90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <010701da5e01$3c4230c0$b4c69240$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Keith your commentary on uploads has my wheels spinning.  I like it when my
wheels spin.

 

Yesterday I was at Berkeley for a Science Olympiad tournament.  It attracted
the kind of high school students who care more about science than the
football tournament yesterday, which has become a national cultural
celebration of a child's war-simulating terrain acquisition game.  (Football
fans, don't jump me, I am just poking a little fun at the non-nerd crowd
(sheesh, sensa huma.))

 

It was a beautiful sunny spring day, birds chirping, trees in bloom.  A
mariachi band was strumming and the caballero finding young couples and
singing love songs to the likely bride to be (or considering this is a
college campus, the likely temporary bed partner (sheesh sensa huma.))

 

I followed the music group and listened to the songs.  I know only a little
Spanish, typical of anyone who has lived for decades in California, but
enough to understand what the singer is doing: simple beautiful sincere
melodies about how he feels about his sweetheart.

 

I am nowhere anywhere on the sexual preference spectrum, or if so, waaaaay
the hell over on the ultra-hetero end of it, completely outta sight of
anything else.  But listening to this guy sing about how he feels about his
senorita, the most beautiful woman in the world and how he loves her with
all his heart (and so on as the guitars strum behind him and the trumpets so
on) oh my goodness, even I, EVEN I. was getting a boner, just listening to
this guy and my bride wasn't even there.  Of course I watched the young lady
where he was singing to a couple, and she melted in a gooey sweet puddle.
Of course she took her sweetheart immediately back to her dorm room.  Hey,
we were humans first, before becoming geeks second.  

 

There is a good explanation for why there are so many people south of the
Rio Grande: Spanish a great language for that kind of thing, way better than
English.

 

My point, one which I will expand on later (I gotta scoot, load the SciOly
equipment in my truck back into the storage area) is that we should think
about experiences like mine at Berkeley yesterday when we discuss uploading.

 

For instance. what if. I upload, and realize I never have experiences like
one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at Berkeley,
listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies into situations
where a next generation of meat-being is given a chance to come into
existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded existence is, Imagine I
miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to see to it that the
feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt again, into the
future, indefinitely.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/e0985b7a/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Feb 12 22:18:36 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 22:18:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>


On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the 
> parameters.? So how can that work?
> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most 
> intense pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine?into a 
> brain.? What would happen?? A biological body would adapt and inhibit 
> extreme reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.? 
> Not in an upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense 
> as possible.
> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any 
> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at 
> all. No feeling bad.
> Is that what people want?? bill w

Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change 
things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific 
things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that 
be what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological 
brain?

I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you 
to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole 
bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings 
and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings 
and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for 
example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing 
things, and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down 
a rabbit hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind 
of thing. Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could 
just change these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup 
and restore, that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't 
accidentally turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and 
could make deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with 
various states of mind.

Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities 
would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits 
of being an upload.

In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking 
the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. 
Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above 
and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/92e9b9d0/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 00:00:04 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 17:00:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you will)
engineering.
And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking
about.
Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like having
sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations, when sex
isn't appropriate.
But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings given
to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we want to
do.
Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up to be
orgasmic. ;)

Oh, and the current "world in your head
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/the-world-in-your-head>" this
is our knowledge of what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter,
and very low resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.
Emagine discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the
resolution, and extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.

And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind
multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.


100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like this
humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
Intelligence will be a very different thing.

Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just this
topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be like,
and all that.






On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>
> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the parameters.  So how can that work?
> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
> possible.
> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
> all. No feeling bad.
> Is that what people want?  bill w
>
>
> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change
> things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things,
> and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what
> people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>
> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you to
> change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch of
> macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert to
> them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them
> return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would
> enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you
> want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out.
> There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the
> potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at
> will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of
> thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a
> hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate
> decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>
> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities
> would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of
> being an upload.
>
> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking the
> next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part of
> the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and beyond
> being merely human, if and when we want to.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/fe481748/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 00:36:40 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 16:36:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>

This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
anything with the phrase "without getting lost."

Best wishes,

Keith


On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you will) engineering.
> And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking about.
> Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations, when sex isn't appropriate.
> But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we want to do.
> Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up to be orgasmic. ;)
>
> Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
>
> And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>
>
> 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
> Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>
> Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be like, and all that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>>
>> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the parameters.  So how can that work?
>> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
>> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
>> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
>> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>> possible.
>> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
>> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
>> all. No feeling bad.
>> Is that what people want?  bill w
>>
>>
>> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>>
>> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>>
>> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of being an upload.
>>
>> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>>
>> Ben
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From dsunley at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 01:49:26 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 18:49:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter of
your subjective conscious experience.

If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do so.

But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing you
can do about it.

Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they see
fit. With or without your permission.

Data can't defend itself.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Keith
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you
> will) engineering.
> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking
> about.
> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like
> having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations,
> when sex isn't appropriate.
> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings
> given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we
> want to do.
> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up to
> be orgasmic. ;)
> >
> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what
> we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution,
> and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands
> more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble
> world by many orders of magnitude.
> >
> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind
> multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
> >
> >
> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like this
> humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
> >
> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just
> this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be
> like, and all that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
> >>
> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the
> parameters.  So how can that work?
> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
> >> possible.
> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
> >> all. No feeling bad.
> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
> >>
> >>
> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change
> things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things,
> and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what
> people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
> >>
> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you
> to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch
> of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert
> to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them
> return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would
> enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you
> want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out.
> There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the
> potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at
> will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of
> thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a
> hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate
> decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
> >>
> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities
> would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of
> being an upload.
> >>
> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking
> the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part
> of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and
> beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
> >>
> >> Ben
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/333b8f66/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 03:31:10 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 20:31:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>

It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple computationally
bound brains.
If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by
some incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and
computationally bind to it to be sure it is the same,
all the phenomenal data restored.

You just need lots of cheap copies.




On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter of
> your subjective conscious experience.
>
> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do so.
>
> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing you
> can do about it.
>
> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they see
> fit. With or without your permission.
>
> Data can't defend itself.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you
>> will) engineering.
>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking
>> about.
>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like
>> having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations,
>> when sex isn't appropriate.
>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings
>> given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we
>> want to do.
>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up
>> to be orgasmic. ;)
>> >
>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what
>> we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution,
>> and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands
>> more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble
>> world by many orders of magnitude.
>> >
>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind
>> multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>> >
>> >
>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like
>> this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>> >
>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just
>> this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be
>> like, and all that.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the
>> parameters.  So how can that work?
>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>> >> possible.
>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change
>> things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things,
>> and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what
>> people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>> >>
>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you
>> to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch
>> of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert
>> to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them
>> return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would
>> enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you
>> want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out.
>> There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the
>> potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at
>> will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of
>> thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a
>> hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate
>> decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>> >>
>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities
>> would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of
>> being an upload.
>> >>
>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking
>> the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part
>> of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and
>> beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>> >>
>> >> Ben
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/e982e4c1/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 07:02:39 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:02:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>

Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted, which
u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way out.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple computationally
> bound brains.
> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by
> some incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and
> computationally bind to it to be sure it is the same,
> all the phenomenal data restored.
>
> You just need lots of cheap copies.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter of
>> your subjective conscious experience.
>>
>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do so.
>>
>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing you
>> can do about it.
>>
>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they
>> see fit. With or without your permission.
>>
>> Data can't defend itself.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you
>>> will) engineering.
>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are
>>> talking about.
>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like
>>> having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations,
>>> when sex isn't appropriate.
>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings
>>> given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we
>>> want to do.
>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up
>>> to be orgasmic. ;)
>>> >
>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what
>>> we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution,
>>> and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands
>>> more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble
>>> world by many orders of magnitude.
>>> >
>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally
>>> bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like
>>> this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>>> >
>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just
>>> this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be
>>> like, and all that.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming -
>>> the parameters.  So how can that work?
>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most
>>> intense
>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>>> >> possible.
>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not
>>> change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific
>>> things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be
>>> what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>>> >>
>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows
>>> you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole
>>> bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and
>>> revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and
>>> have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This
>>> would enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what
>>> you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way
>>> out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the
>>> potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at
>>> will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of
>>> thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a
>>> hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate
>>> decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>>> >>
>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities
>>> would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of
>>> being an upload.
>>> >>
>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking
>>> the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part
>>> of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and
>>> beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ben
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240212/44fe8f95/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 07:28:31 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:28:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>

I kind of suspect that it will be legal to have only one copy at a time active.

But who knows?

Modifying yourself is probably not a good idea.  Minsky went into some
detail, but I don't have time to look it up.

Keith

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 11:04?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted, which u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way out.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple computationally bound brains.
>> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by some incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and computationally bind to it to be sure it is the same,
>> all the phenomenal data restored.
>>
>> You just need lots of cheap copies.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter of your subjective conscious experience.
>>>
>>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do so.
>>>
>>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they see fit. With or without your permission.
>>>
>>> Data can't defend itself.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
>>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you will) engineering.
>>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking about.
>>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations, when sex isn't appropriate.
>>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we want to do.
>>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up to be orgasmic. ;)
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
>>>> >
>>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>>>> >
>>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be like, and all that.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the parameters.  So how can that work?
>>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
>>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
>>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
>>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>>>> >> possible.
>>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
>>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
>>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of being an upload.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ben
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Feb 13 10:15:45 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 10:15:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1707784642.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.21.1707784642.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <e5c1d787-bf62-4d79-ae96-7381748cfec6@zaiboc.net>


On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences
> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at
> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies
> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a chance
> to come into existence?? Regardless of how good that uploaded existence
> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to see
>   to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt
> again, into the future, indefinitely.

Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?

If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall 
having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at 
will, as an upload.

If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or 
have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the 
experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone 
would not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. 
Just as we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, 
and they can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, 
I expect there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into 
an interactive experience for uploads.

I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any 
un-uploaded person can have, and then some.

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/34033274/attachment.htm>

From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Feb 13 16:05:14 2024
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 08:05:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <e5c1d787-bf62-4d79-ae96-7381748cfec6@zaiboc.net>
References: <e5c1d787-bf62-4d79-ae96-7381748cfec6@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <BF0D0A88-C3FC-44CC-8171-B530455E9ADD@taramayastales.com>

No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an experience.

You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing the band itself only the simulacra of the band.

A painting is not the thing it portrays.

> On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ? 
>> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences 
>> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at 
>> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies 
>> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a chance 
>> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded existence 
>> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to see
>>  to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt 
>> again, into the future, indefinitely.
> 
> Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
> 
> If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at will, as an upload.
> 
> If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone would not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. Just as we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, and they can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, I expect there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into an interactive experience for uploads.
> 
> I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
> 
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 16:15:01 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 08:15:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <BF0D0A88-C3FC-44CC-8171-B530455E9ADD@taramayastales.com>
References: <e5c1d787-bf62-4d79-ae96-7381748cfec6@zaiboc.net>
 <BF0D0A88-C3FC-44CC-8171-B530455E9ADD@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>

If one experiences an illusion, is not one's experience itself real even if
the thing that was experienced was an illusion?

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:07?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that
> experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an experience.
>
> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but
> unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing the
> band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>
> A painting is not the thing it portrays.
>
> > On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> >> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
> >> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences
> >> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at
> >> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies
> >> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a chance
> >> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded existence
> >> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to see
> >>  to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt
> >> again, into the future, indefinitely.
> >
> > Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
> >
> > If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall
> having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at will,
> as an upload.
> >
> > If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or
> have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the
> experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone would
> not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. Just as
> we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, and they
> can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, I expect
> there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into an
> interactive experience for uploads.
> >
> > I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any
> un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
> >
> > Ben
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/5f09de95/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 13 16:19:04 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 08:19:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <BF0D0A88-C3FC-44CC-8171-B530455E9ADD@taramayastales.com>
References: <e5c1d787-bf62-4d79-ae96-7381748cfec6@zaiboc.net>
 <BF0D0A88-C3FC-44CC-8171-B530455E9ADD@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <007101da5e98$5d244930$176cdb90$@rainier66.com>

> On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences 
>> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 
>> at Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young 
>> ladies ...
> 
> Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
...
> 
> I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
> 
> Ben
> _______________________________________________


Your scenario is entirely plausible Ben.

My notion was that an upload might long for new such experiences.  But your scenario is to intentionally erase the memory of such an event and play it back again.

Another way to go with it: suppose an upload wishes to experience the span of human meat existence.  That could be done, with extensive file sharing, analogous to trying to play every video game ever written or read every book in the library.  Still one might wish to go to the local bookstore, even if one has not read every book in one's own home.

Tara, may you, and all present have many experiences like my Berkeley mariachi day.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 17:32:20 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 11:32:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e5c1d787-bf62-4d79-ae96-7381748cfec6@zaiboc.net>
 <BF0D0A88-C3FC-44CC-8171-B530455E9ADD@taramayastales.com>
 <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbxou0YYU8-bxLEhRGTDc2Pt_-rf+SiCeH_O4tL+hs=Uw@mail.gmail.com>

I would add that if something creates brainwaves- dreams, illusions,
hallucinations - then it's a real thing.  A map is a real thing even if it
isn't the territory.   bill w

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:17?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> If one experiences an illusion, is not one's experience itself real even
> if the thing that was experienced was an illusion?
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:07?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that
>> experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an experience.
>>
>> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but
>> unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing the
>> band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>>
>> A painting is not the thing it portrays.
>>
>> > On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?
>> >> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>> >> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences
>> >> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at
>> >> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies
>> >> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a
>> chance
>> >> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded
>> existence
>> >> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to
>> see
>> >>  to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt
>> >> again, into the future, indefinitely.
>> >
>> > Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
>> >
>> > If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall
>> having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at will,
>> as an upload.
>> >
>> > If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or
>> have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the
>> experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone would
>> not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. Just as
>> we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, and they
>> can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, I expect
>> there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into an
>> interactive experience for uploads.
>> >
>> > I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any
>> un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
>> >
>> > Ben
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/9e0dac87/attachment-0001.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Feb 13 18:02:29 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 18:02:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <mailman.24.1707845575.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.24.1707845575.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4c30ee35-d473-40bd-aaa2-840d8e9b2760@zaiboc.net>


On 13/02/2024 17:32, Tara Maya wrote:
> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that
> experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an
> experience.
>
> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but
> unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing
> the band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>
> A painting is not the thing it portrays.

Real? Define 'real', in this context.

Do you accept that we create the world that we experience? That each 
person builds a world from their sensory inputs, and for them, that is 
'the world'?

If so, then there is no problem, and an 'illusion' of an experience is 
the same thing as the experience.

If not, then you have to explain how we can apprehend the 'real' world 
without actually creating it in our own minds.

In this particular case, of minds, the map is the important thing, not 
the territory. We never, ever, experience the territory, just the map 
that we create in our own heads (built from many sensory and memory 
inputs). The painting is all we ever know about. What it portrays is 
forever beyond our reach. A high-quality reproduction of the painting is 
just as good as the original painting, in every respect.

Therefore, experiencing a simulacrum of a mariachi band is identical to 
'really' experiencing the band. 'Reality' is what we create in our heads.

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/924b6b7d/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 18:29:37 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 11:29:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>

I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever have one
copy of themselves, once creating and binding multiple copies becomes
trivally easy.

And children are more or less copies, already.  What is the difference?  I
have become my father, more or less.

The reason Elon wants to get to mars is for the same reason.  We need
multiple copies of humanity.



On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:29?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I kind of suspect that it will be legal to have only one copy at a time
> active.
>
> But who knows?
>
> Modifying yourself is probably not a good idea.  Minsky went into some
> detail, but I don't have time to look it up.
>
> Keith
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 11:04?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted,
> which u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way
> out.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple
> computationally bound brains.
> >> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by some
> incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and computationally
> bind to it to be sure it is the same,
> >> all the phenomenal data restored.
> >>
> >> You just need lots of cheap copies.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter
> of your subjective conscious experience.
> >>>
> >>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do
> so.
> >>>
> >>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing
> you can do about it.
> >>>
> >>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they
> see fit. With or without your permission.
> >>>
> >>> Data can't defend itself.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
> >>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
> >>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
> >>>>
> >>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>
> >>>> Keith
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> >>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if
> you will) engineering.
> >>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are
> talking about.
> >>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like
> having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations,
> when sex isn't appropriate.
> >>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet
> strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to
> what we want to do.
> >>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it
> up to be orgasmic. ;)
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of
> what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low
> resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine
> discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and
> extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally
> bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like
> this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
> >>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on
> just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered
> to be like, and all that.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming -
> the parameters.  So how can that work?
> >>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most
> intense
> >>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.
> What
> >>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
> >>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in
> an
> >>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
> >>>> >> possible.
> >>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off
> any
> >>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy
> at
> >>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
> >>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not
> change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific
> things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be
> what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows
> you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole
> bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and
> revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and
> have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This
> would enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what
> you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way
> out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the
> potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at
> will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of
> thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a
> hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate
> decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of
> capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the
> potential benefits of being an upload.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for
> taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's
> mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go
> above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Ben
> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>>> >
> >>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/4f816c27/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 18:40:19 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:40:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY_050O4pHYqGNwCNZPPswhp6mO_sBx8r77RSKYALF8aA@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder what the cost would be, per ounce, of sending food to Mars?   bill
w

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:31?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever have one
> copy of themselves, once creating and binding multiple copies becomes
> trivally easy.
>
> And children are more or less copies, already.  What is the difference?  I
> have become my father, more or less.
>
> The reason Elon wants to get to mars is for the same reason.  We need
> multiple copies of humanity.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:29?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I kind of suspect that it will be legal to have only one copy at a time
>> active.
>>
>> But who knows?
>>
>> Modifying yourself is probably not a good idea.  Minsky went into some
>> detail, but I don't have time to look it up.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 11:04?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted,
>> which u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way
>> out.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple
>> computationally bound brains.
>> >> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by some
>> incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and computationally
>> bind to it to be sure it is the same,
>> >> all the phenomenal data restored.
>> >>
>> >> You just need lots of cheap copies.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every
>> parameter of your subjective conscious experience.
>> >>>
>> >>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to
>> do so.
>> >>>
>> >>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing
>> you can do about it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way
>> they see fit. With or without your permission.
>> >>>
>> >>> Data can't defend itself.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
>> >>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>> >>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Keith
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> >>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if
>> you will) engineering.
>> >>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are
>> talking about.
>> >>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things
>> like having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired
>> temptations, when sex isn't appropriate.
>> >>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet
>> strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to
>> what we want to do.
>> >>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it
>> up to be orgasmic. ;)
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of
>> what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low
>> resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine
>> discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and
>> extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally
>> bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering
>> like this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>> >>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on
>> just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered
>> to be like, and all that.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming
>> - the parameters.  So how can that work?
>> >>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most
>> intense
>> >>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.
>> What
>> >>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>> >>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not
>> in an
>> >>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>> >>>> >> possible.
>> >>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off
>> any
>> >>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no
>> empathy at
>> >>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>> >>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not
>> change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific
>> things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be
>> what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that
>> allows you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a
>> whole bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous
>> settings and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different
>> settings and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for
>> example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing things,
>> and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit
>> hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing.
>> Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change
>> these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore,
>> that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally
>> turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make
>> deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of
>> mind.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of
>> capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the
>> potential benefits of being an upload.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for
>> taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's
>> mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go
>> above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ben
>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/9caf6344/attachment.htm>

From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Feb 13 18:44:06 2024
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 10:44:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/8ee93ea3/attachment.htm>

From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Feb 13 18:50:52 2024
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 10:50:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>
References: <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <87C40BB7-8B28-47A4-A55C-733F13DB0E20@taramayastales.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/1009e1fc/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 18:56:56 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 11:56:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_050O4pHYqGNwCNZPPswhp6mO_sBx8r77RSKYALF8aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_050O4pHYqGNwCNZPPswhp6mO_sBx8r77RSKYALF8aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onswuekqpbdDVmOa=ZY3jv23cfbLh2z6c85A2JCz02Bv-w@mail.gmail.com>

I don't understand why Elon, the person who achieved so much success by
focusing on "first principles" seems to completely miss first principles
when going to space early.

We need to figure out how to modify our bodies, and to do phenomenal
engineering, so we can design bodies that don't need space suits, the kind
that doesn't need exercise while in transit, bodies that don't need the
kind of 'food' you are talking about, and so on.  A body that thrives in
the martian or space environment.  like our probes and robots do.

Once we figure all that out, THEN we can go to mars, right?  Elon seems to
have going to space bass acwards.








On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 11:41?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I wonder what the cost would be, per ounce, of sending food to Mars?
>  bill w
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:31?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever have
>> one copy of themselves, once creating and binding multiple copies becomes
>> trivally easy.
>>
>> And children are more or less copies, already.  What is the difference?
>> I have become my father, more or less.
>>
>> The reason Elon wants to get to mars is for the same reason.  We need
>> multiple copies of humanity.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:29?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I kind of suspect that it will be legal to have only one copy at a time
>>> active.
>>>
>>> But who knows?
>>>
>>> Modifying yourself is probably not a good idea.  Minsky went into some
>>> detail, but I don't have time to look it up.
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 11:04?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted,
>>> which u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way
>>> out.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple
>>> computationally bound brains.
>>> >> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by
>>> some incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and
>>> computationally bind to it to be sure it is the same,
>>> >> all the phenomenal data restored.
>>> >>
>>> >> You just need lots of cheap copies.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every
>>> parameter of your subjective conscious experience.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to
>>> do so.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely
>>> nothing you can do about it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way
>>> they see fit. With or without your permission.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Data can't defend itself.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about
>>> it
>>> >>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>>> >>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Best wishes,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Keith
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>> >>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if
>>> you will) engineering.
>>> >>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are
>>> talking about.
>>> >>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things
>>> like having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired
>>> temptations, when sex isn't appropriate.
>>> >>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet
>>> strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to
>>> what we want to do.
>>> >>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire
>>> it up to be orgasmic. ;)
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of
>>> what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low
>>> resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine
>>> discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and
>>> extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to
>>> "computationally bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering
>>> like this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>>> >>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on
>>> just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered
>>> to be like, and all that.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming
>>> - the parameters.  So how can that work?
>>> >>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most
>>> intense
>>> >>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a
>>> brain.  What
>>> >>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>>> >>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not
>>> in an
>>> >>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>>> >>>> >> possible.
>>> >>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off
>>> any
>>> >>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no
>>> empathy at
>>> >>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>>> >>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not
>>> change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific
>>> things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be
>>> what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that
>>> allows you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a
>>> whole bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous
>>> settings and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different
>>> settings and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for
>>> example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing things,
>>> and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit
>>> hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing.
>>> Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change
>>> these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore,
>>> that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally
>>> turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make
>>> deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of
>>> mind.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of
>>> capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the
>>> potential benefits of being an upload.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for
>>> taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's
>>> mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go
>>> above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>>> >>>> >>
>>> >>>> >> Ben
>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> >>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> >>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> >>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> >>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/94756b38/attachment-0001.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 20:04:00 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:04:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6cxjVgYvkCNrWA0sjBErPVQ0k0kx2h85aE1KtRnfu72A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:31?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever have one copy of themselves, once creating and binding multiple copies becomes trivally easy.

Have you ever considered how annoying a copy would be?  Who controls
the bank account?  Which one gets the wife?  (I know, run off a copy
of the wife as well).

But the main problem is an insane increase in the population.  Even as
an upload, a copy is going to burn resources.  Also, if there are 40
of you bidding for the same work, it's an instant race to the bottom.

> And children are more or less copies, already.  What is the difference?  I have become my father, more or less.

Children are not copies. Nor are they easy to raise to adulthood.  We
still have an overpopulation problem.  I wrote about raising clones in
an almost depopulated world.

> The reason Elon wants to get to mars is for the same reason.  We need multiple copies of humanity.

It would take a very short time to fill up Mars if it were habitable.

I think the only case where copies will be permitted is when people
are leaving for the stars and you can't get enough to fill up the
starships.

But I could be wrong.  I suspect the light-blocking structures at
Tabby's Star (and at least 24 others in the cluster) are data centers
able to support trillions of uploads.  So maybe copies are in our
future.

Keith

April had been born in 1980 when Amanda was thirty-six.  In spite of
trying, (and two miscarriages) she didn't have another before the
clinics and the physical world population crash they caused.  If she
wanted, she could call up intensely preserved memories of her first
child and restored video of her.  She sent off a thought and was
pinged back by her oldest daughter (or an automated process her
daughter had set up, it was hard to tell with those who had
transcended).

The next child had been born right at the low point in the population
eighty-one years later and thirty years after she and Dwight had gone
through their first partial rejuvenation.  They had stayed outside the
clinics and the virtual worlds when they became popular and were
encouraged to have a much more extensive rejuvenation and genome
upgrade if they were interested in raising kids to maintain a human
population presence.  (The attractions of the uploaded life had turned
out to be too good, and the "powers that be" whoever or whatever they
might be had decided to try to stabilize a physical state human
population above zero.)

Bob was a clone of Dwight, Connie was a clone of Amanda and Duncan was
a clone of a friend who had died before rejuvenation.  (His DNA had
been recovered from an envelope flap.)  A lot of Amanda's friends
raised clones of themselves and their partners in the first years
after the population bottom.  Raising your own clones rapidly went out
of style.  It was amazing how annoying kids that much like you can be.

>From "The Clinic Seed" chapter 3.

>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 12:29?AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> I kind of suspect that it will be legal to have only one copy at a time active.
>>
>> But who knows?
>>
>> Modifying yourself is probably not a good idea.  Minsky went into some
>> detail, but I don't have time to look it up.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 11:04?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Who just spools up another?  If all your active copies are subverted, which u believe is the scenario under discussion, you might not have a way out.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 7:33 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It can defend itself if it is instantiated into multiple computationally bound brains.
>> >> If one of them accidentally falls into the sun, or gets hacked by some incompetent neural engineer, you just spin up another, and computationally bind to it to be sure it is the same,
>> >> all the phenomenal data restored.
>> >>
>> >> You just need lots of cheap copies.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 6:50?PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Once you're uploaded, /someone/ will be able to change every parameter of your subjective conscious experience.
>> >>>
>> >>> If they're spectacularly nice, they may even give you permission to do so.
>> >>>
>> >>> But if they withold that permission, there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Furthermore, they will retain the option to modify you in any way they see fit. With or without your permission.
>> >>>
>> >>> Data can't defend itself.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 5:38?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This topic has been discussed for a long time, Drexler wrote about it
>> >>>> and so did Marvin Minsky.  I think I wrote about but can't find
>> >>>> anything with the phrase "without getting lost."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Keith
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> >>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Yea, your talking consciousness or phenomenal (or "spiritual" if you will) engineering.
>> >>>> > And you'll be able to do all these kinds of things you guys are talking about.
>> >>>> > Right now we don't have true free will, we get joy from things like having sex.  And we need to try to resist those hard wired temptations, when sex isn't appropriate.
>> >>>> > But true free will is having the ability to cut those puppet strings given to us by evolution (or God?) and wire joys like that up to what we want to do.
>> >>>> > Emagine when you need to take the garbage out, and you can wire it up to be orgasmic. ;)
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Oh, and the current "world in your head" this is our knowledge of what we see, is only about a mile or so in diameter, and very low resolution, and composed of only a few color qualities.  Emagine discovering thousands more color qualities, increasing the resolution, and extents of that bubble world by many orders of magnitude.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > And of course, there is using neural ponytails to "computationally bind multiple bubble worlds together in multiple brains.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > 100 years from now, once we start doing phenomenal engineering like this humanity, as we know it, will cease to exist.
>> >>>> > Intelligence will be a very different thing.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Our team, including Steven Lehar, are working on more videos on just this topic.  Describing in detail what uploading could be engineered to be like, and all that.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:19?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On 09/02/2024 22:48, bill w wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I am assuming that an uploaded person can change the programming - the parameters.  So how can that work?
>> >>>> >> Suppose one could change the enjoyment of chocolate to the most intense
>> >>>> >> pleasure possible - like dumping a ton of dopamine into a brain.  What
>> >>>> >> would happen?  A biological body would adapt and inhibit extreme
>> >>>> >> reactions and probably develop an addiction and tolerance.  Not in an
>> >>>> >> upload. You could presumably make every pleasure as intense as
>> >>>> >> possible.
>> >>>> >> If you read the news and there was a disaster you could turn off any
>> >>>> >> negative emotions and just note that news cognitively - no empathy at
>> >>>> >> all. No feeling bad.
>> >>>> >> Is that what people want?  bill w
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ask the opposite question: Suppose an uploaded person could not change things like their level of enjoyment (or its opposite) of specific things, and they couldn't modulate their emotional responses. Would that be what people want? Being stuck with the way you were as a biological brain?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I envisage something like an 'emotional control panel' that allows you to change your emotional states, with the ability to create a whole bunch of macros that could, for instance, record the previous settings and revert to them when needed, so you could try out different settings and have them return to 'normal' after a set period of time, for example. This would enable you to safely experiment with changing things, and decide what you want to be like without risking diving down a rabbit hole with no way out. There is tons of potential with that kind of thing. Naturally, the potential for bad outcomes is huge if you could just change these things at will, so safety mechanisms, automatic backup and restore, that sort of thing, would be needed to make sure you don't accidentally turn into a hopeless junkie, a psychopath, etc., etc., and could make deliberate decisions based on temporary experiments with various states of mind.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Personally, I think that an upload without these kind of capabilities would be crippled, in terms of disabling a lot of the potential benefits of being an upload.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> In addition, this kind of thing will probably be necessary for taking the next steps beyond just replicating a biological human's mentality. Part of the whole point of uploading would be to enable us to go above and beyond being merely human, if and when we want to.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Ben
>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 13 20:23:21 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:23:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY_050O4pHYqGNwCNZPPswhp6mO_sBx8r77RSKYALF8aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY_050O4pHYqGNwCNZPPswhp6mO_sBx8r77RSKYALF8aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201da5eba$7de48ff0$79adafd0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, 13 February, 2024 10:40 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] after upload, what?

 

>?I wonder what the cost would be, per ounce, of sending food to Mars?   bill w

 

 

 

If you meant to soft-land it in a particular spot, and you were sending more than about 100 kg, I would estimate with current technology about 20k-50k bucks per ounce.  Eating won?t be cheap there.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/01ff591b/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 13 20:28:20 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 12:28:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6cxjVgYvkCNrWA0sjBErPVQ0k0kx2h85aE1KtRnfu72A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6cxjVgYvkCNrWA0sjBErPVQ0k0kx2h85aE1KtRnfu72A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01da5ebb$2fb30e50$8f192af0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:31?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>... I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever have one copy of themselves....

>...Have you ever considered how annoying a copy would be?  

I sure have Keith.  I would be always cutting up and making wise cracks, annoying the hell outta me.  I would brutally drive me to semi-cide.

spike



From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 22:37:51 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:37:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <006a01da5ebb$2fb30e50$8f192af0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6cxjVgYvkCNrWA0sjBErPVQ0k0kx2h85aE1KtRnfu72A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006a01da5ebb$2fb30e50$8f192af0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontzrR5DCm8+jjccg_y=wthy9bnb=tSTd-66vHjEr605SQ@mail.gmail.com>

So funny.  Thanks for the laugh.

Computationally bound copies and clones would still be an individual
identity.  The same as two bound hemispheres are one individual.
You would experiment on one part of the individual, and if it failed, or
crashed into the sun, or whatever, you could spin that part up and try
again.

And I don't think anyone should worry about too many people, until at least
this earth is full, I mean this solar system is full, I mean this galaxy is
full.... you get the idea.





On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 1:29?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Keith Henson via extropy-chat
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:31?AM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >>... I can't understand why someone would think people could only ever
> have one copy of themselves....
>
> >...Have you ever considered how annoying a copy would be?
>
> I sure have Keith.  I would be always cutting up and making wise cracks,
> annoying the hell outta me.  I would brutally drive me to semi-cide.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/e0a572ae/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 22:40:10 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 14:40:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>
References: <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSo8vbb66R4qWBRsY03X+1Scm1x-MiRVQOGFxmyQsrKcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of
an experience.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 10:45 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> It?s a real experience of an illusion but it?s not a real experience of
> that which the illusion represents.
>
> On Feb 13, 2024, at 08:17, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> If one experiences an illusion, is not one's experience itself real even
> if the thing that was experienced was an illusion?
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:07?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that
>> experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an experience.
>>
>> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but
>> unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing the
>> band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>>
>> A painting is not the thing it portrays.
>>
>> > On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > ?
>> >> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>> >> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences
>> >> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at
>> >> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies
>> >> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a
>> chance
>> >> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded
>> existence
>> >> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to
>> see
>> >>  to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt
>> >> again, into the future, indefinitely.
>> >
>> > Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
>> >
>> > If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall
>> having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at will,
>> as an upload.
>> >
>> > If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or
>> have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the
>> experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone would
>> not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. Just as
>> we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, and they
>> can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, I expect
>> there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into an
>> interactive experience for uploads.
>> >
>> > I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any
>> un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
>> >
>> > Ben
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/868604fe/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 13 23:15:24 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:15:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] after upload, what?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontzrR5DCm8+jjccg_y=wthy9bnb=tSTd-66vHjEr605SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.16.1707518880.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0513f78a-6bd7-478b-bceb-6e7fb4bd988e@zaiboc.net>
 <CAK7-onsRWvYCoBSYp3SVk0aA4Fk+oyqUxJHT41TaJ_-uoP+8VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB4v0pKmGLh_S6AQBX7=eZPYBv5epvZ8jghpHsNZ=zffuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkTv0CU4MqCteUMpPfaoc3NfgjycHbRYr=GJGZVH4Obc1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvR6hxxD20mHBairsy85fmCr-D-7Q=K6J6b0QoE_38ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRrONgMW-b1pB8+-VOmshCjoCa57c3ODrmTGP47Gt3w-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6LbxH54N22kNzKEkyEWHgUA3KKZUX7+U5EVwXvEV54rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontEyBqXXi3cwkBL0O=0YsHRG1Y8CYBWSJNy_iXD7_LK4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6cxjVgYvkCNrWA0sjBErPVQ0k0kx2h85aE1KtRnfu72A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006a01da5ebb$2fb30e50$8f192af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-ontzrR5DCm8+jjccg_y=wthy9bnb=tSTd-66vHjEr605SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009101da5ed2$87805a90$96810fb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] after upload, what?

 

 

>?So funny.  Thanks for the laugh.

 

>?Computationally bound copies and clones would still be an individual identity.  The same as two bound hemispheres are one individual.

You would experiment on one part of the individual, and if it failed, or crashed into the sun, or whatever, you could spin that part up and try again.

 

>?And I don't think anyone should worry about too many people, until at least this earth is full, I mean this solar system is full, I mean this galaxy is full.... you get the idea? Brent

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brent, if we manage to work out uploading, can you even imagine the games possible?  Perfectly evenly matched chess games, or have two copies fight to the death.  Or teams, battles and so forth.  Since everyone would look exactly like everyone else, you could pull false-flag attacks, you would never have any idea who is a spy in your midst, you could try to outsmart yourself, oh that would be a kick.  No matter who loses, you win eventually.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240213/e2a0349e/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 09:51:22 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 03:51:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSo8vbb66R4qWBRsY03X+1Scm1x-MiRVQOGFxmyQsrKcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRa8=fubuV00TTV+_K7Ef59T_ipnc1Guz0ffm0z7pkPcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>
 <CALAdGNSo8vbb66R4qWBRsY03X+1Scm1x-MiRVQOGFxmyQsrKcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYJd6w3ppyJq4tWW3nSPZ73BcBRsTCncG0heaAubXOzMA@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of
an experience.   agreed  billw

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:42?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of
> an experience.
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 10:45 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> It?s a real experience of an illusion but it?s not a real experience of
>> that which the illusion represents.
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2024, at 08:17, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>> If one experiences an illusion, is not one's experience itself real even
>> if the thing that was experienced was an illusion?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:07?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that
>>> experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an experience.
>>>
>>> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but
>>> unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing the
>>> band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>>>
>>> A painting is not the thing it portrays.
>>>
>>> > On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > ?
>>> >> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>>> >> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences
>>> >> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024
>>> at
>>> >> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies
>>> >> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a
>>> chance
>>> >> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded
>>> existence
>>> >> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to
>>> see
>>> >>  to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be
>>> felt
>>> >> again, into the future, indefinitely.
>>> >
>>> > Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
>>> >
>>> > If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall
>>> having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at will,
>>> as an upload.
>>> >
>>> > If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or
>>> have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the
>>> experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone would
>>> not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. Just as
>>> we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, and they
>>> can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, I expect
>>> there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into an
>>> interactive experience for uploads.
>>> >
>>> > I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any
>>> un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
>>> >
>>> > Ben
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240214/35c00893/attachment.htm>

From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Feb 14 15:51:01 2024
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 07:51:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYJd6w3ppyJq4tWW3nSPZ73BcBRsTCncG0heaAubXOzMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYJd6w3ppyJq4tWW3nSPZ73BcBRsTCncG0heaAubXOzMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D98850A1-B919-4C6B-B76B-E5C99446609A@taramayastales.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240214/be166399/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 19:54:14 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2024 11:54:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <D98850A1-B919-4C6B-B76B-E5C99446609A@taramayastales.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYJd6w3ppyJq4tWW3nSPZ73BcBRsTCncG0heaAubXOzMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D98850A1-B919-4C6B-B76B-E5C99446609A@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7fD-0=asvc+7Sg3pbBih55O4z3za0=sA7Ut24700XanQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tara, you have a handle on the uploading business.

18 years ago, I wrote about this in a fictional context.

In this snip, Suakulan is the AI who runs the clinic, Zaba is a
12-year-old who was shot through the spine and repaired by Suskulan.

"Zaba often talked to Suskulan.  She eventually acquired a top-level
understanding of all of human knowledge and had access to the details
through simulated memory.  Suskulan warned her that she might have a
difficult time in the physical world if she got out of communication
because her mind had expanded well beyond what could be supported in a
brain.

"Why would I want to go back to being stupid?" she responded, but,
after thinking about it, she warmed up her body and moved her
consciousness back into her original brain.  Her boyfriend was deep in
a game and would not come along.  (She had a boyfriend because the
older man her parents expected to marry her had lost interest after
asking for and being given half a dozen simulated concubines.)


Keith

On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 7:52?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 14, 2024, at 01:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of an experience.   agreed  billw
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:42?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of an experience.
>
>
> I agree also. But it is what it is, and not what it isn?t. And what is possible for uploads will depend entirely upon what is actually possible. What is real for uploads will depend upon what uploads can really do.
>
> That sounds tautological but it must be said to distinguish from those who believe there is no reality or reality is what you feel or everything unreal is real. And in fact, if your argument is against the existence of reality itself, we have nothing else to discuss. Jump from a thirty story building and discuss it with gravity.
>
> But back to uploads. We don?t know what?s possible yet so we have to speculate. I am saying there is a difference between the following three scenarios:
>
> A. Bob has the experience of meeting with 30 other people to listen to music and dance. Bob and Maria hit it off, go home, and conceive a child.
>
> B. Upload Bob meets with 30 other uploads to share the virtual experience of listening to music and dancing. Bob and Maria have virtual sex but never physically meet.
>
> C. Upload Bob alone has the virtual experience of listening to music and dancing and virtual sex with a bunch of hyper-realistic NPCs.
>
> In A, Bob and Maria have a real social experience and further the human race.
>
> In B, Bob and Maria have a real social experience but don?t do anything to contribute to the next generation even though the part of their brains evolved to ensure the next generation is fooled by their immense pleasure.
>
> In C, Bob is alone but his brain may be be unable to distinguish between C and A because t B. In fact, since C may be hyper-real and devoid of the friction that comes from negotiating real relationships, Bob may find C the most exciting of all.
>
> These are all real experiences but of different real situations with results that are vastly different.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2024, at 01:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> ?
> Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of an experience.   agreed  billw
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 4:42?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Agreed.  But a real experience of an illusion is not itself an illusion of an experience.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 10:45 AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> It?s a real experience of an illusion but it?s not a real experience of that which the illusion represents.
>>>
>>> On Feb 13, 2024, at 08:17, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> If one experiences an illusion, is not one's experience itself real even if the thing that was experienced was an illusion?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:07?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an experience.
>>>>
>>>> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band but unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be experiencing the band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>>>>
>>>> A painting is not the thing it portrays.
>>>>
>>>> > On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > ?
>>>> >> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>>>> >> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have experiences
>>>> >> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb 2024 at
>>>> >> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young ladies
>>>> >> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a chance
>>>> >> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded existence
>>>> >> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want to see
>>>> >>  to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be felt
>>>> >> again, into the future, indefinitely.
>>>> >
>>>> > Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these experiences?
>>>> >
>>>> > If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at will, as an upload.
>>>> >
>>>> > If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded, or have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate the experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason anyone would not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as an upload. Just as we currently have AI systems that you can give a description to, and they can create an image, still or moving, of what you've asked for, I expect there will be systems that can take a memory and turn it into an interactive experience for uploads.
>>>> >
>>>> > I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience any un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
>>>> >
>>>> > Ben
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Feb 15 13:51:30 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 05:51:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] uploads and mariachi bands
In-Reply-To: <87C40BB7-8B28-47A4-A55C-733F13DB0E20@taramayastales.com>
References: <41987152-1598-4007-BE57-C3B68B29E293@taramayastales.com>
 <87C40BB7-8B28-47A4-A55C-733F13DB0E20@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <5ba348a96bad585343dbb2665eeb1337@sollegro.com>

I agree. One of the very few well-written TV shows regarding uploading 
is "Pantheon" which finally got picked up by Amazon streaming. The main 
theme in the series is how the human relationships and conflicts from 
their biological lives tethers the world's first uploads to reality. It 
is one of the most intelligent, beautiful, and moving pieces of hard 
science fiction that I have ever watched. I cannot recommend it enough.

Stuart LaForge


On 2024-02-13 10:50, Tara Maya via extropy-chat wrote:
> As a fiction writer and lifelong reader, I don?t doubt the value of
> fantasy and games. As uploads we can have amazing experiences.
> 
> But we will never untether ourselves from reality, so we ignore
> reality at our peril.
> 
>> On Feb 13, 2024, at 10:44, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com>
>> wrote:
> 
>> ?
>> 
>> It?s a real experience of an illusion but it?s not a real
>> experience of that which the illusion represents.
>> 
>>> On Feb 13, 2024, at 08:17, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> ?
>> If one experiences an illusion, is not one's experience itself real
>> even if the thing that was experienced was an illusion?
>> 
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:07?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> No one can have an experience at Will if the circumstances of that
>> experience aren?t real; they can only have the illusion of an
>> experience.
>> 
>> You could recreate a memory or a fantasy of hearing a mariachi band
>> but unless the band of other people were there, you?d not be
>> experiencing the band itself only the simulacra of the band.
>> 
>> A painting is not the thing it portrays.
>> 
>>> On Feb 13, 2024, at 02:17, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?
>>>> On 13/02/2024 00:37, spike wrote:
>>>> For instance? what if? I upload, and realize I never have
>> experiences
>>>> like one I remember with crystal vision, the way I felt in Feb
>> 2024 at
>>>> Berkeley, listening to a mariachi band musically seduce young
>> ladies
>>>> into situations where a next generation of meat-being is given a
>> chance
>>>> to come into existence?  Regardless of how good that uploaded
>> existence
>>>> is, Imagine I miss that Berkeley mariachi feeling so much, I want
>> to see
>>>> to it that the feelings I had yesterday are given a chance to be
>> felt
>>>> again, into the future, indefinitely.
>>> 
>>> Spike, what would prevent you, as an upload, having these
>> experiences?
>>> 
>>> If you realise you happen to never have any experiences you recall
>> having as a biological being, you can arrange to have them again, at
>> will, as an upload.
>>> 
>>> If some mariachi band and a suitable couple haven't also uploaded,
>> or have moved on from those behaviours, you could always recreate
>> the experiences you were missing in your own mind. I see no reason
>> anyone would not be able to have any experiences they wanted to, as
>> an upload. Just as we currently have AI systems that you can give a
>> description to, and they can create an image, still or moving, of
>> what you've asked for, I expect there will be systems that can take
>> a memory and turn it into an interactive experience for uploads.
>>> 
>>> I fully expect that uploads will be able to have any experience
>> any un-uploaded person can have, and then some.
>>> 
>>> Ben
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 06:09:56 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2024 23:09:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnA9bX-bcVUUhmj7p5wONA+Ga9fFBJN+TVdiJxve8MnAvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 8:20?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Ground water depletion is also getting increasing attention as wells
> dry up worldwide, forcing communities into urgent solutions.

I see ground water depletion as a fairly easily solved problem once
one has sufficient energy resources. Simply desalinate and pump. With
fusion, it's fairly easy to see how that problem gets solved by a
future of energy abundance.

Soil is quite a bit harder. It generally takes a very long time. Now,
you could say something like hydroponics would solve the problem, and
you might be right... but soil on outside fields seems hard to beat.

Yes, we all know global warming isn't really a solvable problem...
it's not going to be solved any more than Mohenjo-daro
stopped baking bricks. Whether it will lead to the end of humanity, or
merely the populating of Canada and Siberia is anyone's guess.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 12:15:37 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2024 12:15:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnA9bX-bcVUUhmj7p5wONA+Ga9fFBJN+TVdiJxve8MnAvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnA9bX-bcVUUhmj7p5wONA+Ga9fFBJN+TVdiJxve8MnAvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhTTP=1F1thrq3fu_=Pd+Qmcs1wEOney89OYCnmNHFpgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 at 06:12, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I see ground water depletion as a fairly easily solved problem once
> one has sufficient energy resources. Simply desalinate and pump. With
> fusion, it's fairly easy to see how that problem gets solved by a
> future of energy abundance.
>
<snip>
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________


Well, I see a few problems with that.  :)

First, fusion power is always sometime in the next 30 years ahead.
It would certainly be nice to have, but it may take a long time arriving.

Groundwater depletion needs solutions quickly. Humans (and
agriculture) cannot survive without fresh water. That's why current
expensive desalination plants are still being installed. 'Necessary'
overrides the expense.
Though some installations may be able to use solar power.

Then there are the environmental impacts. What to do with all the
brine (concentrated saltwater) polluted with chemicals that is
produced? Dumping it into the sea will harm marine life. The intake
pipes also cause harm as they suck in plankton and small sealife.

It all may be solvable eventually, but populations are faced *now*
with wells drying up and land subsidence.


BillK

From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 08:15:36 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 01:15:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Top Soil Depletion
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhTTP=1F1thrq3fu_=Pd+Qmcs1wEOney89OYCnmNHFpgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnDZWXW=aRbBrgBQs0UmpMAzWnrWEHfuAmFwAA+inXUXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjGF3OXdWwUh-Siw2ZTS+NtknfabJXGgd-ZiAwHHBvPFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACBESnA9bX-bcVUUhmj7p5wONA+Ga9fFBJN+TVdiJxve8MnAvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhTTP=1F1thrq3fu_=Pd+Qmcs1wEOney89OYCnmNHFpgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnB8fXdfK-+Wzy3xuQFcH5zwe8BFJBAoHBasi_MeXhnzcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 5:22?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 at 06:12, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I see ground water depletion as a fairly easily solved problem once
> > one has sufficient energy resources. Simply desalinate and pump. With
> > fusion, it's fairly easy to see how that problem gets solved by a
> > future of energy abundance.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > -Kelly
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> Well, I see a few problems with that.  :)
>
> First, fusion power is always sometime in the next 30 years ahead.
> It would certainly be nice to have, but it may take a long time arriving.

That is true traditionally, but I believe it is now 20 years away, and
we may not deplete ALL the ground water before then...

> Groundwater depletion needs solutions quickly. Humans (and
> agriculture) cannot survive without fresh water. That's why current
> expensive desalination plants are still being installed. 'Necessary'
> overrides the expense.
> Though some installations may be able to use solar power.

The real solution is to desalinate for places like Los Angeles, and
let those upstream keep the water that naturally falls there. Of
course, this could be very difficult politically... but it beats
pumping water uphill 4000 feet.

>
> Then there are the environmental impacts. What to do with all the
> brine (concentrated saltwater) polluted with chemicals that is
> produced? Dumping it into the sea will harm marine life. The intake
> pipes also cause harm as they suck in plankton and small sealife.

If brine is pumped far enough out it will dissipate in the currents.
I'm not sure what chemicals are there that aren't already in sea
water. It would be virtually impossible to concentrate the ocean other
than perhaps in a very localized area.

> It all may be solvable eventually, but populations are faced *now*
> with wells drying up and land subsidence.

Sure. That's a problem in SOME places. Just like climate change and
soil deletion are a problem now in some places. If you have evidence
that one problem is bigger than the other in some way, I'm all ears...
but not everywhere has the problems that say, Ukraine has at the
moment. Different places, different problems. In the place I live, I
am suffering from an over concentration of governmental power in the
hands of the incompetent and malicious... hopefully, that's not a
problem everywhere... sigh.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 16:52:38 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 16:52:38 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
Message-ID: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>

I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
uploads will have experiences like humans.

Uploads will have vast knowledge, much faster processing and most
importantly, will not have a human body. They will (virtually) see and
hear the mariachi band, like watching a video and process the event.
But emotions? That part seems unlikely.

Every upload would need to be running its own version of the human
body endocrine system which evolution produced to drive human
emotional reactions to events. This is unnecessary if there is no
human body to protect from dangers. Much superior reasoning will
fulfil those former human requirements. Uploaded humans will be glad
to get rid of all the troubles that emotions get them into.  ;)

BillK

I asked an AI -
Would an uploaded human intelligence have emotions, or does that need
a human body with hormones ?

Answer -
Uploaded human intelligence, lacking a physical body with hormones,
would not inherently possess emotions. Emotions are complex phenomena
that involve intricate interactions between the brain, body, and
external stimuli. While an uploaded human intelligence may be capable
of processing vast amounts of information and executing tasks with
high efficiency, the experience of emotions is closely tied to the
physiological responses triggered by hormonal activity in the body.
Without a physical form to generate these hormonal responses, the AI
system would lack the biological basis for emotions.

Emotions are a fundamental aspect of human experience, influencing our
thoughts, behaviors, and decision-making processes. They play a
crucial role in social interactions, memory formation, and overall
well-being. Emotions are mediated by a network of brain regions,
neurotransmitters, and hormones that work together to create
subjective feelings and physiological responses.

Hormones such as cortisol, adrenaline, dopamine, serotonin, and
oxytocin play key roles in regulating emotions. These chemical
messengers are released in response to various stimuli and help
modulate mood, stress levels, motivation, and social bonding. The
absence of a physical body means that an uploaded human intelligence
would lack the biological mechanisms necessary to produce and regulate
these hormones.

While AI systems can be programmed to simulate certain emotional
responses or behaviors based on predefined algorithms and data inputs,
these simulations do not equate to genuine emotions experienced by
living beings. Emotions in humans are deeply intertwined with our
physical existence and evolutionary history, serving adaptive
functions that have been shaped over millions of years of evolution.

In conclusion, an uploaded human intelligence operating without a
physical body and hormonal system would not possess emotions in the
same way that biological beings do. Emotions are a product of complex
interactions between the brain, body, and environment, and without the
physiological foundations provided by hormones and bodily sensations,
true emotional experiences would be absent in such an entity.
-------------

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 17:07:25 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 09:07:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Prove that other humans experience emotions.

No, seriously.  That they have endocrine systems et al was - and, sadly,
still is - ignored by a sizable percentage of human beings who sought to
dehumanize people.

"Negros don't actually feel.  They're too dumb to have real emotions."

"Them Injuns don't care about land like we do.  See how they just move
about it?  So it's no problem if we take it."

"If barbarians were capable of feeling anything, they would say so in our
language."

And so on.  Speculation that uploads wouldn't have emotions feels like it
falls into the same trap.

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
> uploads will have experiences like humans.
>
> Uploads will have vast knowledge, much faster processing and most
> importantly, will not have a human body. They will (virtually) see and
> hear the mariachi band, like watching a video and process the event.
> But emotions? That part seems unlikely.
>
> Every upload would need to be running its own version of the human
> body endocrine system which evolution produced to drive human
> emotional reactions to events. This is unnecessary if there is no
> human body to protect from dangers. Much superior reasoning will
> fulfil those former human requirements. Uploaded humans will be glad
> to get rid of all the troubles that emotions get them into.  ;)
>
> BillK
>
> I asked an AI -
> Would an uploaded human intelligence have emotions, or does that need
> a human body with hormones ?
>
> Answer -
> Uploaded human intelligence, lacking a physical body with hormones,
> would not inherently possess emotions. Emotions are complex phenomena
> that involve intricate interactions between the brain, body, and
> external stimuli. While an uploaded human intelligence may be capable
> of processing vast amounts of information and executing tasks with
> high efficiency, the experience of emotions is closely tied to the
> physiological responses triggered by hormonal activity in the body.
> Without a physical form to generate these hormonal responses, the AI
> system would lack the biological basis for emotions.
>
> Emotions are a fundamental aspect of human experience, influencing our
> thoughts, behaviors, and decision-making processes. They play a
> crucial role in social interactions, memory formation, and overall
> well-being. Emotions are mediated by a network of brain regions,
> neurotransmitters, and hormones that work together to create
> subjective feelings and physiological responses.
>
> Hormones such as cortisol, adrenaline, dopamine, serotonin, and
> oxytocin play key roles in regulating emotions. These chemical
> messengers are released in response to various stimuli and help
> modulate mood, stress levels, motivation, and social bonding. The
> absence of a physical body means that an uploaded human intelligence
> would lack the biological mechanisms necessary to produce and regulate
> these hormones.
>
> While AI systems can be programmed to simulate certain emotional
> responses or behaviors based on predefined algorithms and data inputs,
> these simulations do not equate to genuine emotions experienced by
> living beings. Emotions in humans are deeply intertwined with our
> physical existence and evolutionary history, serving adaptive
> functions that have been shaped over millions of years of evolution.
>
> In conclusion, an uploaded human intelligence operating without a
> physical body and hormonal system would not possess emotions in the
> same way that biological beings do. Emotions are a product of complex
> interactions between the brain, body, and environment, and without the
> physiological foundations provided by hormones and bodily sensations,
> true emotional experiences would be absent in such an entity.
> -------------
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240217/e27651e3/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 17:22:25 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 11:22:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY1goQy4PrhxA-BFNas=gTAFP-T07h80QcJnLJFt-bJ=A@mail.gmail.com>

You don't need hormones.  If you programmed what a typical person would
react to in anger, that is the behaviors not the feelings, then you can
program in environments for the upload that produce those behaviors.  Same
for any other emotion.   You could program different reactions for
different uploaded people.

If you want to program in feelings, then you are in trouble because
feelings are difficult to put into words.  STick with the behaviors, then -
it will be easy. bill w

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 11:10?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Prove that other humans experience emotions.
>
> No, seriously.  That they have endocrine systems et al was - and, sadly,
> still is - ignored by a sizable percentage of human beings who sought to
> dehumanize people.
>
> "Negros don't actually feel.  They're too dumb to have real emotions."
>
> "Them Injuns don't care about land like we do.  See how they just move
> about it?  So it's no problem if we take it."
>
> "If barbarians were capable of feeling anything, they would say so in our
> language."
>
> And so on.  Speculation that uploads wouldn't have emotions feels like it
> falls into the same trap.
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
>> uploads will have experiences like humans.
>>
>> Uploads will have vast knowledge, much faster processing and most
>> importantly, will not have a human body. They will (virtually) see and
>> hear the mariachi band, like watching a video and process the event.
>> But emotions? That part seems unlikely.
>>
>> Every upload would need to be running its own version of the human
>> body endocrine system which evolution produced to drive human
>> emotional reactions to events. This is unnecessary if there is no
>> human body to protect from dangers. Much superior reasoning will
>> fulfil those former human requirements. Uploaded humans will be glad
>> to get rid of all the troubles that emotions get them into.  ;)
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> I asked an AI -
>> Would an uploaded human intelligence have emotions, or does that need
>> a human body with hormones ?
>>
>> Answer -
>> Uploaded human intelligence, lacking a physical body with hormones,
>> would not inherently possess emotions. Emotions are complex phenomena
>> that involve intricate interactions between the brain, body, and
>> external stimuli. While an uploaded human intelligence may be capable
>> of processing vast amounts of information and executing tasks with
>> high efficiency, the experience of emotions is closely tied to the
>> physiological responses triggered by hormonal activity in the body.
>> Without a physical form to generate these hormonal responses, the AI
>> system would lack the biological basis for emotions.
>>
>> Emotions are a fundamental aspect of human experience, influencing our
>> thoughts, behaviors, and decision-making processes. They play a
>> crucial role in social interactions, memory formation, and overall
>> well-being. Emotions are mediated by a network of brain regions,
>> neurotransmitters, and hormones that work together to create
>> subjective feelings and physiological responses.
>>
>> Hormones such as cortisol, adrenaline, dopamine, serotonin, and
>> oxytocin play key roles in regulating emotions. These chemical
>> messengers are released in response to various stimuli and help
>> modulate mood, stress levels, motivation, and social bonding. The
>> absence of a physical body means that an uploaded human intelligence
>> would lack the biological mechanisms necessary to produce and regulate
>> these hormones.
>>
>> While AI systems can be programmed to simulate certain emotional
>> responses or behaviors based on predefined algorithms and data inputs,
>> these simulations do not equate to genuine emotions experienced by
>> living beings. Emotions in humans are deeply intertwined with our
>> physical existence and evolutionary history, serving adaptive
>> functions that have been shaped over millions of years of evolution.
>>
>> In conclusion, an uploaded human intelligence operating without a
>> physical body and hormonal system would not possess emotions in the
>> same way that biological beings do. Emotions are a product of complex
>> interactions between the brain, body, and environment, and without the
>> physiological foundations provided by hormones and bodily sensations,
>> true emotional experiences would be absent in such an entity.
>> -------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240217/6c8d1d96/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 17:33:39 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2024 10:33:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onuY32_t5VNvuj9EfUd6rJsTsju08PTh5uQ9BExq3V6M1g@mail.gmail.com>

Being uploaded to an abstract system will certainly have no emotions, just
abstract simulated representations of the same, made of digital words.
That'd be just barely better than only rotting in the hell that is the
grave.

But once they discover things like which of all our descriptions of stuff
in the brain is a description of redness, connecting the subjective
emotions with objective observation, then we'll be able to not only
objectively observe emotions in others and know what they are like.

We're working on a set of videos to describe what phenomenal engineering
will be like.
For example, we'll be expanding the world in our head
<https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness/the-world-in-your-head> from a
mile or so in diameter to thousands of miles, thousands of times more
resolution/meter represented, and hundreds more phenomenal colors and
such.  To say nothing of being able to rewire the hormones and emotions to
want what we want, not what our creator wanted us to want.






On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 9:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
> uploads will have experiences like humans.
>
> Uploads will have vast knowledge, much faster processing and most
> importantly, will not have a human body. They will (virtually) see and
> hear the mariachi band, like watching a video and process the event.
> But emotions? That part seems unlikely.
>
> Every upload would need to be running its own version of the human
> body endocrine system which evolution produced to drive human
> emotional reactions to events. This is unnecessary if there is no
> human body to protect from dangers. Much superior reasoning will
> fulfil those former human requirements. Uploaded humans will be glad
> to get rid of all the troubles that emotions get them into.  ;)
>
> BillK
>
> I asked an AI -
> Would an uploaded human intelligence have emotions, or does that need
> a human body with hormones ?
>
> Answer -
> Uploaded human intelligence, lacking a physical body with hormones,
> would not inherently possess emotions. Emotions are complex phenomena
> that involve intricate interactions between the brain, body, and
> external stimuli. While an uploaded human intelligence may be capable
> of processing vast amounts of information and executing tasks with
> high efficiency, the experience of emotions is closely tied to the
> physiological responses triggered by hormonal activity in the body.
> Without a physical form to generate these hormonal responses, the AI
> system would lack the biological basis for emotions.
>
> Emotions are a fundamental aspect of human experience, influencing our
> thoughts, behaviors, and decision-making processes. They play a
> crucial role in social interactions, memory formation, and overall
> well-being. Emotions are mediated by a network of brain regions,
> neurotransmitters, and hormones that work together to create
> subjective feelings and physiological responses.
>
> Hormones such as cortisol, adrenaline, dopamine, serotonin, and
> oxytocin play key roles in regulating emotions. These chemical
> messengers are released in response to various stimuli and help
> modulate mood, stress levels, motivation, and social bonding. The
> absence of a physical body means that an uploaded human intelligence
> would lack the biological mechanisms necessary to produce and regulate
> these hormones.
>
> While AI systems can be programmed to simulate certain emotional
> responses or behaviors based on predefined algorithms and data inputs,
> these simulations do not equate to genuine emotions experienced by
> living beings. Emotions in humans are deeply intertwined with our
> physical existence and evolutionary history, serving adaptive
> functions that have been shaped over millions of years of evolution.
>
> In conclusion, an uploaded human intelligence operating without a
> physical body and hormonal system would not possess emotions in the
> same way that biological beings do. Emotions are a product of complex
> interactions between the brain, body, and environment, and without the
> physiological foundations provided by hormones and bodily sensations,
> true emotional experiences would be absent in such an entity.
> -------------
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240217/9a72a3cf/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 19 05:33:40 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 21:33:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK

 

 

BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains, swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240218/bb880495/attachment.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 10:48:33 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 11:48:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] My talk on spaceflight later today
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeikteqrcoQXOLoqaycG5mYY_nqq=+o+iLeRoMZidcYog@mail.gmail.com>

Come and listen to my talk for Space Renaissance TODAY Feb. 19, 7pm CET
(1pm ET). I?ll elaborate on the cultural issues discussed in my book
?Futurist spaceflight meditations? (2021). Then I?ll discuss the long term
future of space expansion and elaborate on its spiritual implications. I
promise a blunt and provocative talk, with the gloves off.
https://youtu.be/Gzpu9_2xr0E
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/bd4c119c/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 15:21:52 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 08:21:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Spike,
Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
then you seem to contradict your desires with:
"I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can relate
to this.)

And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
seem to try to do.




On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>
>
>
>
>
> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/e571ec2e/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 19 18:02:51 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:02:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?

 

 

Hi Spike,

Your beliefs are hard to pin down.

First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)

I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"

then you seem to contradict your desires with:

"I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can relate to this.)

 

And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people seem to try to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or even betting.

 

We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking advantage of those who bet their values.

 

It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80 cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog meat brains.

 

I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.

 

Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer, ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence of desire vs belief.  Cool.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

 

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

>?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK

 

 

BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains, swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/62175ef0/attachment-0001.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Feb 19 18:06:43 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:06:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ...never mind...
Message-ID: <039c01da635e$65d8beb0$318a3c10$@rainier66.com>

 

 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/f1fcb9ee/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 25650 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/f1fcb9ee/attachment.jpg>

From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Feb 19 18:44:20 2024
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:44:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ...never mind...
In-Reply-To: <039c01da635e$65d8beb0$318a3c10$@rainier66.com>
References: <039c01da635e$65d8beb0$318a3c10$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <4665F1FC-BF63-46A8-8B55-2D0AE86A4AB1@taramayastales.com>

This is why uploads will still have feelings. What good is porn without feelings of embodiment?

> On Feb 19, 2024, at 10:10, spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> ?
>  
>  
> <image001.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/787007b2/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Feb 19 20:26:31 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 20:26:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>

I'm baffled by the opinions being expressed here.

We all understand what computer simulations are, and that digital 
computers can simulate anything, to an arbitrary level of detail.

But somehow, endocrine systems and emotions are exempt from this?

And bodies?

I'd agree that more advanced uploads may well do away with some of these 
things, after a suitable period of experimentation, but surely the first 
uploads will need to be provided with virtual bodies, including an 
endocrine system (and a whole bunch of other things, that we don't even 
know yet for sure), and we will do our best to exactly replicate all the 
experiences, including emotional ones, that physical humans have.

To say that uploads can't have endocrine systems, and would be 
emotionless, is like saying that a flight simulator can't have ailerons 
and so can't emulate a roll. That would be a pretty useless flight 
simulator. Similarly, an upload with an incomplete set of the things 
that contribute to our experiences would be pretty useless. Apart from 
anything else, how could you verify it?

I would have thought it was obvious that an upload wouldn't just consist 
of an emulated brain, but would also need a virtual body, and that we 
will need to figure out just what can and can't be omitted from the 
total system that is our physical bodies. Some things are obvious, like, 
say, the exact structure of bones. Some are currently unknown, like the 
effect of our immune systems on our cognition. There's a lot of 
complexity, naturally, but there's absolutely no cause to claim that 
some specific aspect /can't/ be emulated. That would be ridiculous, imo.

Apart from all that, I'd say that emotion underlies thought, and talk of 
having an 'emotionless' mind is nonsense. Like building a car without an 
engine. When we talk of someone being emotionless, we don't actually 
mean someone who has no emotions. They have more control over their 
emotions than most people is all it is. If someone genuinely had no 
emotions, they wouldn't survive. They'd have to reason to get out of 
bed, to talk to other people, no reason to do anything at all, even eat.

Ben

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 20:35:58 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:35:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Play Money odds Betting on Canonizer? Re: Would human uploads
 have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <001701da636e$5716df00$05449d00$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuntVG3zu0_ima=k+G7MCC5VkvEp_6XxGj2fJSKkUVfuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101da6369$974e7bf0$c5eb73d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvrv5xeuTrRSx-ZTr4M_HsmLB1LccSf609CONECCxyduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701da636e$5716df00$05449d00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsHnZYq2zL90iy+cOEczrk3Rc+B2u2E8=U+UkA+zArm-g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Spike,

Would you be willing to donate money to Canonizer.com LLC to receive
contribution
regognition shares
<https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement> and
then bet those recognition shares?  There would be no current legal way to
convert them back into money, as they would just be recognition for
donations given to Canonizer.   Our goal is, if we get some traction, to
have a real ICO for canon coins, and include any outstanding shares in the
genesys block of the Canon Coin ICO.  You can see all the donors who
currently hold recognition shares, and their share of all outstanding
recognition shares here
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13VFaSHKTBtAGrDZaNGzR9C3EoMFepoYWG9d1IooBpZs/edit#gid=260413746>,
.  That is If we can get the lawyers to find a way so we can start
distributing canon coin recognition shares before an official ICO.

Or would you only be willing to bet play money that didn't require a
donation to Canonizer?


On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 11:52 AM
> *To:* spike at rainier66.com; The Important Questions <
> the-important-questions at googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi spike,
>
> Thanks!
>
> Yes, I was one of the top betters on Robon's future betting site for quite
> a while.
>
> And my current thinking is that the betting model would be very much like
> Robin's system used.
>
> The odds could be split across competing camps, based on how much
> consensus each camp would have, compared to competing camps.
>
> If someone discovered and verified that something like our description of
> glutamate reacting in a synapse was a description of what consciousness can
> detect as a subjective redness quality, and that there is absolutely NO WAY
> announce could ever experience redness in any "functional" way, without
> said glutamate, then all you functionalists would be forced to abandon your
> then falsified functionalists camps, and join the Molecular Materialism
> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
> camp.
>
> And the best part is, since there are a gazillion functionalists like you,
> they are a dime a dozen.  And I don't know of any Molecular Materialists
> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
> that would be willing to bet money.  So I should get quite rich from such a
> scheme!!! ;) ;)
>
>
>
> And the best part is, all you functionalists, causing all these so called
> 'hard problems', preventing everyone from discovering which of all our
> objective descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of subjective
> redness will finally be punished, financially, for the damage you guys are
> still doing to progress in this field.  ;)
>
>
>
> Spike, Jason, Stathis....  Would any of you functionalists be willing to
> bet 10 or 20 Ether on any of the functionalist camps??? ;)  I'd take that
> bet against functionalists camps any day, at any odds?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Brent, do post to ExI please.  We are too small a group over here.
>
>
>
> Sure I would play a monetized canonizer, a play-money version, with
> public-accessible (for those signed up to play) betting history.  I am much
> more comfortable with that sliding scale business than I am with a
> yes-or-no-ish do you believe yakkity yak or do you believe bla bla.
>
>
>
> Reason: I don?t really think that way: the Boolean yes or no, 1 or 0, I
> believe this or that.  I think in terms of percent chance that something is
> right.  The odds change over time.  Furthermore? Keith has correctly
> pointed out that humans are pre-programmed to compete, play games and go to
> war, or if no actual war is available, invent war-simulation games.
> Likewise we love to compete, even if it is just for play money.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 12:26?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brent this offlist discussion is perfectly appropriate to post to
> ExIchat, and I do encourage you do to do that, with all the comments I
> made, including this one.
>
>
>
> Regarding legal betting in the US, I don?t know.  But PredictIt, where I
> play, is based in New Zealand.  It is dwindling now, but only because there
> are plenty of alternative sites which do a lot more with sports betting
> methinks.
>
>
>
> Some of us are old enough to remember Robin Hanson?s Ideas Futures, which
> is play money betting.  He had worked out a system which did not involve
> real money, so everything is perfectly legal, but we know that real people
> did trade real money for play money in the game, which one could argue
> converted it into the functional equivalent of real money gambling.
>
>
>
> In a lotta ways, I liked play money betting better, because people took it
> more seriously, and the rules were different: all betting history had to be
> available to the proletariat.  That part of it was cool.  You could see who
> did what, when and how they made their ?money.?  It was so educational.
>
>
>
> Robin is still around, and is currently an economics professor at Mason
> (last I heard (has anyone heard from Dr. Hanson more recently than about 5
> yrs ago?))   I would bet 60 cents on the dollar Robin would likely be
> perfectly willing and eager to advise us on how to do a play-monetized
> version of canonizer.
>
>
>
> Brent, do post all of this to ExI please, if you are willing.  I don?t see
> anything you wrote which needs to be kept secret but I don?t make that call
> for you, or for anyone who posts me offlist.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 10:58 AM
> *To:* spike at rainier66.com
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh COOOL!!!
>
> That helps me understand your beliefs a LOT.  Thanks.
>
> I'm sure a lot of people's hesitance to support a camp is precisely
> because people aren't yet sure, and just have a general idea of odds, like
> you.
>
> I hesitate to join camps on other topics I'm not an expert at, for the
> same reasons.
>
>
>
> One of our goals is to implement betting on camps, and track this over
> time.  Now that you mentioned this, I'm going to start on a design to get
> get betting started.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if this type of futures betting is legal in the US?  If
> so, I bet we'll have it implemented in a few months, so people can bet
> their beliefs and values.
>
> I"m sure we could get some camps set up to precisely account for what you
> are describing, and it's almost there, in the structure  now.
>
>
>
> If it isn't legal to purchase bets in real USD, then we'd need to finally
> create some canonpon coins to bet with, as we've been planning.
>
> You could buy 1 canonin coin for $100, and use that to bet your camp with
> something like the odds you are talking about.
>
>
>
> Oh, and for each canon coin you own (purely representing recognition of
> contributions, legally there can be no quid pro quo till we have a real
> equity ICO which is our goal once we can get some traction...) you can vote
> those recognition shares to make decisions as described here
> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement?canon=8>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:02?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Spike,
>
> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>
> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>
> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>
> then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>
> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can relate
> to this.)
>
>
>
> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
> seem to try to do.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or
> even betting.
>
>
>
> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
> advantage of those who bet their values.
>
>
>
> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
> meat brains.
>
>
>
> I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>
>
>
> Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>
>
>
>
>
> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/d84cdec7/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 20:44:07 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:44:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvA_zue2+NQjjDwmf0NcqAvPXFKgchmx+3S_BcXNxzH4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:27?PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I'm baffled by the opinions being expressed here.
>
> We all understand what computer simulations are, and that digital
> computers can simulate anything, to an arbitrary level of detail.
>
> But somehow, endocrine systems and emotions are exempt from this?
>
> And bodies?
>
> I'd agree that more advanced uploads may well do away with some of these
> things, after a suitable period of experimentation, but surely the first
> uploads will need to be provided with virtual bodies, including an
> endocrine system (and a whole bunch of other things, that we don't even
> know yet for sure), and we will do our best to exactly replicate all the
> experiences, including emotional ones, that physical humans have.
>

My prediction, as always, as described in the molecular materialism camp
<https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
.

Nobody will be able to reproduce a subjective redness experience (or any
other quale) without glutamate*

* replace a description of anything else in the brain different from a
description of glutamate reacting in a synapse, till they can't falsify the
prediction that a description of glutamate* reacting in a synapse =
subjective redness.


It's baffling to me to think how anyone can think someone can produce a
redness experience, let alone engineer a system specifically designed to
represent red with your greenness, without knowing which of all our
descriptions of stuff is redness, and without specifically designing a
system to use specific false color qualities to represent the subjective
visual experiences.







  <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/a6ad0cfd/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 20:54:40 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 12:54:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7=xVeZ1QMmaX47sFMNT2f0HDnYu_F_gr7sHjkTWvpo4w@mail.gmail.com>

"requires analog meat brains."

I don't see any reason for this.

Keith

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Spike,
>
> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>
> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>
> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>
> then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>
> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can relate to this.)
>
>
>
> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people seem to try to do.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or even betting.
>
>
>
> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking advantage of those who bet their values.
>
>
>
> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80 cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog meat brains.
>
>
>
> I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>
>
>
> Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer, ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>
>
>
>
>
> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains, swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 21:07:22 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:07:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Play Money odds Betting on Canonizer? Re: Would human
 uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsHnZYq2zL90iy+cOEczrk3Rc+B2u2E8=U+UkA+zArm-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuntVG3zu0_ima=k+G7MCC5VkvEp_6XxGj2fJSKkUVfuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101da6369$974e7bf0$c5eb73d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvrv5xeuTrRSx-ZTr4M_HsmLB1LccSf609CONECCxyduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701da636e$5716df00$05449d00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onsHnZYq2zL90iy+cOEczrk3Rc+B2u2E8=U+UkA+zArm-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ=ipxY47782yZ138_WY-5ASvMnwei=KapUg6j891bHRQ@mail.gmail.com>

How much experience do you have with ICOs?  If none, how much research have
you done?

I have seen ICOs go down in flames far more often than I have seen them
generate significant revenue.  There are many common mistakes people keep
making.  While I'm not sure what the formula for success is, I am certain
that blazing on into one without substantial marketing resources is a
recipe for failure oft overlooked by confident folks drunk on their own
hype.

I would not say you are drunk on your own hype with regard to an ICO at
this time, but it is something you need to watch out for should you
seriously pursue one.

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 12:37 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Hi Spike,
>
> Would you be willing to donate money to Canonizer.com LLC to receive contribution
> regognition shares
> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement> and
> then bet those recognition shares?  There would be no current legal way to
> convert them back into money, as they would just be recognition for
> donations given to Canonizer.   Our goal is, if we get some traction, to
> have a real ICO for canon coins, and include any outstanding shares in the
> genesys block of the Canon Coin ICO.  You can see all the donors who
> currently hold recognition shares, and their share of all outstanding
> recognition shares here
> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13VFaSHKTBtAGrDZaNGzR9C3EoMFepoYWG9d1IooBpZs/edit#gid=260413746>,
> .  That is If we can get the lawyers to find a way so we can start
> distributing canon coin recognition shares before an official ICO.
>
> Or would you only be willing to bet play money that didn't require a
> donation to Canonizer?
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 11:52 AM
>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com; The Important Questions <
>> the-important-questions at googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi spike,
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Yes, I was one of the top betters on Robon's future betting site for
>> quite a while.
>>
>> And my current thinking is that the betting model would be very much like
>> Robin's system used.
>>
>> The odds could be split across competing camps, based on how much
>> consensus each camp would have, compared to competing camps.
>>
>> If someone discovered and verified that something like our description of
>> glutamate reacting in a synapse was a description of what consciousness can
>> detect as a subjective redness quality, and that there is absolutely NO WAY
>> announce could ever experience redness in any "functional" way, without
>> said glutamate, then all you functionalists would be forced to abandon your
>> then falsified functionalists camps, and join the Molecular Materialism
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>> camp.
>>
>> And the best part is, since there are a gazillion functionalists like
>> you, they are a dime a dozen.  And I don't know of any Molecular
>> Materialists
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>> that would be willing to bet money.  So I should get quite rich from such a
>> scheme!!! ;) ;)
>>
>>
>>
>> And the best part is, all you functionalists, causing all these so called
>> 'hard problems', preventing everyone from discovering which of all our
>> objective descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of subjective
>> redness will finally be punished, financially, for the damage you guys are
>> still doing to progress in this field.  ;)
>>
>>
>>
>> Spike, Jason, Stathis....  Would any of you functionalists be willing to
>> bet 10 or 20 Ether on any of the functionalist camps??? ;)  I'd take that
>> bet against functionalists camps any day, at any odds?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brent, do post to ExI please.  We are too small a group over here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sure I would play a monetized canonizer, a play-money version, with
>> public-accessible (for those signed up to play) betting history.  I am much
>> more comfortable with that sliding scale business than I am with a
>> yes-or-no-ish do you believe yakkity yak or do you believe bla bla.
>>
>>
>>
>> Reason: I don?t really think that way: the Boolean yes or no, 1 or 0, I
>> believe this or that.  I think in terms of percent chance that something is
>> right.  The odds change over time.  Furthermore? Keith has correctly
>> pointed out that humans are pre-programmed to compete, play games and go to
>> war, or if no actual war is available, invent war-simulation games.
>> Likewise we love to compete, even if it is just for play money.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 12:26?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Brent this offlist discussion is perfectly appropriate to post to
>> ExIchat, and I do encourage you do to do that, with all the comments I
>> made, including this one.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding legal betting in the US, I don?t know.  But PredictIt, where I
>> play, is based in New Zealand.  It is dwindling now, but only because there
>> are plenty of alternative sites which do a lot more with sports betting
>> methinks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some of us are old enough to remember Robin Hanson?s Ideas Futures, which
>> is play money betting.  He had worked out a system which did not involve
>> real money, so everything is perfectly legal, but we know that real people
>> did trade real money for play money in the game, which one could argue
>> converted it into the functional equivalent of real money gambling.
>>
>>
>>
>> In a lotta ways, I liked play money betting better, because people took
>> it more seriously, and the rules were different: all betting history had to
>> be available to the proletariat.  That part of it was cool.  You could see
>> who did what, when and how they made their ?money.?  It was so educational.
>>
>>
>>
>> Robin is still around, and is currently an economics professor at Mason
>> (last I heard (has anyone heard from Dr. Hanson more recently than about 5
>> yrs ago?))   I would bet 60 cents on the dollar Robin would likely be
>> perfectly willing and eager to advise us on how to do a play-monetized
>> version of canonizer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Brent, do post all of this to ExI please, if you are willing.  I don?t
>> see anything you wrote which needs to be kept secret but I don?t make that
>> call for you, or for anyone who posts me offlist.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 10:58 AM
>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh COOOL!!!
>>
>> That helps me understand your beliefs a LOT.  Thanks.
>>
>> I'm sure a lot of people's hesitance to support a camp is precisely
>> because people aren't yet sure, and just have a general idea of odds, like
>> you.
>>
>> I hesitate to join camps on other topics I'm not an expert at, for the
>> same reasons.
>>
>>
>>
>> One of our goals is to implement betting on camps, and track this over
>> time.  Now that you mentioned this, I'm going to start on a design to get
>> get betting started.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone know if this type of futures betting is legal in the US?  If
>> so, I bet we'll have it implemented in a few months, so people can bet
>> their beliefs and values.
>>
>> I"m sure we could get some camps set up to precisely account for what you
>> are describing, and it's almost there, in the structure  now.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it isn't legal to purchase bets in real USD, then we'd need to finally
>> create some canonpon coins to bet with, as we've been planning.
>>
>> You could buy 1 canonin coin for $100, and use that to bet your camp with
>> something like the odds you are talking about.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, and for each canon coin you own (purely representing recognition of
>> contributions, legally there can be no quid pro quo till we have a real
>> equity ICO which is our goal once we can get some traction...) you can vote
>> those recognition shares to make decisions as described here
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement?canon=8>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:02?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Spike,
>>
>> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>>
>> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
>> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>>
>> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>>
>> then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>>
>> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
>> relate to this.)
>>
>>
>>
>> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
>> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
>> seem to try to do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or
>> even betting.
>>
>>
>>
>> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
>> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
>> advantage of those who bet their values.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
>> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
>> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
>> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
>> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
>> meat brains.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
>> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
>> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
>> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>>
>>
>>
>> Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
>> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
>> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
>> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
>> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
>> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
>> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/6c058ed2/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 21:23:32 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 21:23:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgEtBFy5rhtx+OvnKaMqHi3TbNUEh_oNk_qrQKk02Xm8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 at 20:29, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> I'm baffled by the opinions being expressed here.
>
> We all understand what computer simulations are, and that digital
> computers can simulate anything, to an arbitrary level of detail.
>
> But somehow, endocrine systems and emotions are exempt from this?
> And bodies?
>
<snip>
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________

It depends on what "uploading" humans means.
You seem to be taking it to mean a complete emulation of the human
brain and body environment.
So presumably you think that cryonics head-only storage is insufficient.
The more usual definition of "uploading" is creating a detailed
digital copy of the individual?s brain, including memories, thoughts,
and personality traits. This digital copy would then be transferred to
a computer. (Of course, this leads to the fundamental question of
whether the uploaded consciousness would truly be the same individual
as the original person or merely a sophisticated simulation).

Mr AI comments -
In a purely digital environment devoid of physical sensations or
hormonal influences, it is unclear how human-like entities would
experience or express sexuality. Without the physiological mechanisms
that drive sexual responses in humans, such as changes in blood flow,
neural activation patterns, or hormonal fluctuations, it is uncertain
whether digital beings would have an analogous experience of sexuality
or if they would even possess sexual desires.
--------------------

I don't think that to say, "Oh well, just emulate absolutely
everything!" solves this problem.



BillK


From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 22:17:53 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 15:17:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7=xVeZ1QMmaX47sFMNT2f0HDnYu_F_gr7sHjkTWvpo4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7=xVeZ1QMmaX47sFMNT2f0HDnYu_F_gr7sHjkTWvpo4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onuLU3+dEquPJO2hfCh7Ds-uXwd1g4E4hSQHVXYunOk_Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Keth let me ask a question, to determine if you are completely qualia blind
or not.

First, would you agree that redness is a quality of your subjective
knowledge of a strawberry, a quality of something in your brain, not a
quality of the strawberry.

Also, Would you agree that we need to first discover what is responsible
for your redness quality, and also what is responsible for your greenness
quality.  THEN once we know the true color qualities of things (instead of
just the seeming color qualities of things), we will then be able to
engineer artificial conscious systems, using whatever is made of those
redness and grenness qualities.  We will need to make such decisions as do
we want the redness and greenness qualities to be engineered the same as
Keith's subjective red and green knowledge, or do we want it to be
red/green inverted.  (or any of another gazillion different falses color
possibilities)

In other words, unless you are thinking about what color palette to use, to
represent subjective knowledge with, in any engineered system you are
thinking of, your thinking is qualia blind.

What is a redness quality?  Which of all our objective descriptions of
stuff in the brain (even if only functional) is a description of redness?
How can you design a system that uses your subjective redness without being
able to know and subjectively demonstrate that?

If you're not imagining which of these systems you plan on engineering, you
are qualia blind.  As all of them will be possible.

[image: strawberery_is_red.jpeg]










On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:55?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> "requires analog meat brains."
>
> I don't see any reason for this.
>
> Keith
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Spike,
> >
> > Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
> >
> > First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
> >
> > I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
> >
> > then you seem to contradict your desires with:
> >
> > "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
> relate to this.)
> >
> >
> >
> > And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
> seem to try to do.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or
> even betting.
> >
> >
> >
> > We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
> advantage of those who bet their values.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
> meat brains.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
> >
> >
> >
> > Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
> > uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/32d8f033/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: strawberery_is_red.jpeg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 33628 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/32d8f033/attachment-0001.jpeg>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 22:21:33 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 15:21:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgEtBFy5rhtx+OvnKaMqHi3TbNUEh_oNk_qrQKk02Xm8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armgEtBFy5rhtx+OvnKaMqHi3TbNUEh_oNk_qrQKk02Xm8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontYP_xk8pjEF3gxFGWs=q4ztyYRWqgXeHC5WYXarbzTMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yay BillK.
We need to tally who is in what camp on this.  And track this over time!!
So it sounds like you are NOT a functionalist, like most people here?




On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:24?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 at 20:29, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm baffled by the opinions being expressed here.
> >
> > We all understand what computer simulations are, and that digital
> > computers can simulate anything, to an arbitrary level of detail.
> >
> > But somehow, endocrine systems and emotions are exempt from this?
> > And bodies?
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > Ben
> > _______________________________________________
>
> It depends on what "uploading" humans means.
> You seem to be taking it to mean a complete emulation of the human
> brain and body environment.
> So presumably you think that cryonics head-only storage is insufficient.
> The more usual definition of "uploading" is creating a detailed
> digital copy of the individual?s brain, including memories, thoughts,
> and personality traits. This digital copy would then be transferred to
> a computer. (Of course, this leads to the fundamental question of
> whether the uploaded consciousness would truly be the same individual
> as the original person or merely a sophisticated simulation).
>
> Mr AI comments -
> In a purely digital environment devoid of physical sensations or
> hormonal influences, it is unclear how human-like entities would
> experience or express sexuality. Without the physiological mechanisms
> that drive sexual responses in humans, such as changes in blood flow,
> neural activation patterns, or hormonal fluctuations, it is uncertain
> whether digital beings would have an analogous experience of sexuality
> or if they would even possess sexual desires.
> --------------------
>
> I don't think that to say, "Oh well, just emulate absolutely
> everything!" solves this problem.
>
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/2e5e11a3/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 22:31:32 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 14:31:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onuLU3+dEquPJO2hfCh7Ds-uXwd1g4E4hSQHVXYunOk_Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7=xVeZ1QMmaX47sFMNT2f0HDnYu_F_gr7sHjkTWvpo4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onuLU3+dEquPJO2hfCh7Ds-uXwd1g4E4hSQHVXYunOk_Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB474bQuuvSs8Y0kvkCpxqkrohOUWFA1YPoJVwh_fDqfVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:19?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Keth let me ask a question, to determine if you are completely qualia
> blind or not.
>

I have no idea.  I have never understood what "qualia" is.

My point is that simulation can reproduce in hardware anything that happens
in biological brains.

If you were switching from a simulation of the world to the real thing,
there would be no difference in the taste of a strawberry vs a simulated
strawberry.

Keith


>
> First, would you agree that redness is a quality of your subjective
> knowledge of a strawberry, a quality of something in your brain, not a
> quality of the strawberry.
>
> Also, Would you agree that we need to first discover what is responsible
> for your redness quality, and also what is responsible for your greenness
> quality.  THEN once we know the true color qualities of things (instead of
> just the seeming color qualities of things), we will then be able to
> engineer artificial conscious systems, using whatever is made of those
> redness and grenness qualities.  We will need to make such decisions as do
> we want the redness and greenness qualities to be engineered the same as
> Keith's subjective red and green knowledge, or do we want it to be
> red/green inverted.  (or any of another gazillion different falses color
> possibilities)
>
> In other words, unless you are thinking about what color palette to use,
> to represent subjective knowledge with, in any engineered system you are
> thinking of, your thinking is qualia blind.
>
> What is a redness quality?  Which of all our objective descriptions of
> stuff in the brain (even if only functional) is a description of redness?
> How can you design a system that uses your subjective redness without being
> able to know and subjectively demonstrate that?
>
> If you're not imagining which of these systems you plan on engineering,
> you are qualia blind.  As all of them will be possible.
>
> [image: strawberery_is_red.jpeg]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:55?PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "requires analog meat brains."
>>
>> I don't see any reason for this.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:05?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
>> Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Spike,
>> >
>> > Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>> >
>> > First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
>> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>> >
>> > I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>> >
>> > then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>> >
>> > "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
>> relate to this.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
>> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
>> seem to try to do.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability
>> or even betting.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
>> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
>> advantage of those who bet their values.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
>> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
>> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
>> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
>> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
>> meat brains.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
>> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
>> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
>> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
>> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
>> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
>> > uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
>> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
>> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
>> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/000f4906/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: strawberery_is_red.jpeg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 33628 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/000f4906/attachment.jpeg>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 22:37:42 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 15:37:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Play Money odds Betting on Canonizer? Re: Would human
 uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ=ipxY47782yZ138_WY-5ASvMnwei=KapUg6j891bHRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuntVG3zu0_ima=k+G7MCC5VkvEp_6XxGj2fJSKkUVfuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101da6369$974e7bf0$c5eb73d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvrv5xeuTrRSx-ZTr4M_HsmLB1LccSf609CONECCxyduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701da636e$5716df00$05449d00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onsHnZYq2zL90iy+cOEczrk3Rc+B2u2E8=U+UkA+zArm-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ=ipxY47782yZ138_WY-5ASvMnwei=KapUg6j891bHRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvG=M-8UfiTm7fshYRQCAX53wPV+S-kc27B3-Ux-ms7nQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've been closely tracking ICOs since way before the term ICO even
existed.  I've also briefly described some of the below to a few crypto
knowledgeable attorneys and they seem to think there might be a way to do
what I describe here.  But I don't know everything.

First off, we're not going to do a full blown ICO until AFTER we get some
significant traction, AND canonizer is financially exothermic.

What I'm thinking of now, before an official ICO, is just some Cannon coins
that would ONLY be a recognition of voluntary contributions to
Canonizer.com.  If you contribute $100 to Canonizer.com LLC you would get 1
recognition share for helping canonizer bring the world back together by
building and tracking consensus on moral truth, undoing what all the
ripping apart of society all the other social media sites are doing.

These coins would not be legally redeemable back to any kind of cash or
coin.  All you could do with them is hold them or bet them into a canonizer
topic.  You would do that at the current consensus rate of that camp, and
at some later time, you could cash them out of the topic, back into your
wallet, for more or less canon coin as determined whether your camp
increased or decreased its consensus during that time.  In order to be
legal, there can't be any "quid pro quo" so there would be none of that
guaranteed by making a donation to Canonizer.com LLC.

It is only our Goal to at some time do a real ICO, only after we are
proving we can make money with this.  It is only our goal that some portion
of the equity distributed in the genesis block of that ICO to the holders
of these Canon coins accordingly.  Just a goal, no legal quid quo pro.  All
contributions would just be a donation to Canonizer.com LLC,  nothing more.


Does that make sense?  Does that sound possible/legal?



















On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:08?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> How much experience do you have with ICOs?  If none, how much research
> have you done?
>
> I have seen ICOs go down in flames far more often than I have seen them
> generate significant revenue.  There are many common mistakes people keep
> making.  While I'm not sure what the formula for success is, I am certain
> that blazing on into one without substantial marketing resources is a
> recipe for failure oft overlooked by confident folks drunk on their own
> hype.
>
> I would not say you are drunk on your own hype with regard to an ICO at
> this time, but it is something you need to watch out for should you
> seriously pursue one.
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 12:37 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Spike,
>>
>> Would you be willing to donate money to Canonizer.com LLC to receive contribution
>> regognition shares
>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement> and
>> then bet those recognition shares?  There would be no current legal way to
>> convert them back into money, as they would just be recognition for
>> donations given to Canonizer.   Our goal is, if we get some traction, to
>> have a real ICO for canon coins, and include any outstanding shares in the
>> genesys block of the Canon Coin ICO.  You can see all the donors who
>> currently hold recognition shares, and their share of all outstanding
>> recognition shares here
>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13VFaSHKTBtAGrDZaNGzR9C3EoMFepoYWG9d1IooBpZs/edit#gid=260413746>,
>> .  That is If we can get the lawyers to find a way so we can start
>> distributing canon coin recognition shares before an official ICO.
>>
>> Or would you only be willing to bet play money that didn't require a
>> donation to Canonizer?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 11:52 AM
>>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com; The Important Questions <
>>> the-important-questions at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi spike,
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Yes, I was one of the top betters on Robon's future betting site for
>>> quite a while.
>>>
>>> And my current thinking is that the betting model would be very much
>>> like Robin's system used.
>>>
>>> The odds could be split across competing camps, based on how much
>>> consensus each camp would have, compared to competing camps.
>>>
>>> If someone discovered and verified that something like our description
>>> of glutamate reacting in a synapse was a description of what consciousness
>>> can detect as a subjective redness quality, and that there is absolutely NO
>>> WAY announce could ever experience redness in any "functional" way, without
>>> said glutamate, then all you functionalists would be forced to abandon your
>>> then falsified functionalists camps, and join the Molecular Materialism
>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>>> camp.
>>>
>>> And the best part is, since there are a gazillion functionalists like
>>> you, they are a dime a dozen.  And I don't know of any Molecular
>>> Materialists
>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>>> that would be willing to bet money.  So I should get quite rich from such a
>>> scheme!!! ;) ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And the best part is, all you functionalists, causing all these so
>>> called 'hard problems', preventing everyone from discovering which of all
>>> our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of
>>> subjective redness will finally be punished, financially, for the damage
>>> you guys are still doing to progress in this field.  ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Spike, Jason, Stathis....  Would any of you functionalists be willing to
>>> bet 10 or 20 Ether on any of the functionalist camps??? ;)  I'd take that
>>> bet against functionalists camps any day, at any odds?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brent, do post to ExI please.  We are too small a group over here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sure I would play a monetized canonizer, a play-money version, with
>>> public-accessible (for those signed up to play) betting history.  I am much
>>> more comfortable with that sliding scale business than I am with a
>>> yes-or-no-ish do you believe yakkity yak or do you believe bla bla.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Reason: I don?t really think that way: the Boolean yes or no, 1 or 0, I
>>> believe this or that.  I think in terms of percent chance that something is
>>> right.  The odds change over time.  Furthermore? Keith has correctly
>>> pointed out that humans are pre-programmed to compete, play games and go to
>>> war, or if no actual war is available, invent war-simulation games.
>>> Likewise we love to compete, even if it is just for play money.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 12:26?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Brent this offlist discussion is perfectly appropriate to post to
>>> ExIchat, and I do encourage you do to do that, with all the comments I
>>> made, including this one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding legal betting in the US, I don?t know.  But PredictIt, where I
>>> play, is based in New Zealand.  It is dwindling now, but only because there
>>> are plenty of alternative sites which do a lot more with sports betting
>>> methinks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some of us are old enough to remember Robin Hanson?s Ideas Futures,
>>> which is play money betting.  He had worked out a system which did not
>>> involve real money, so everything is perfectly legal, but we know that real
>>> people did trade real money for play money in the game, which one could
>>> argue converted it into the functional equivalent of real money gambling.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a lotta ways, I liked play money betting better, because people took
>>> it more seriously, and the rules were different: all betting history had to
>>> be available to the proletariat.  That part of it was cool.  You could see
>>> who did what, when and how they made their ?money.?  It was so educational.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robin is still around, and is currently an economics professor at Mason
>>> (last I heard (has anyone heard from Dr. Hanson more recently than about 5
>>> yrs ago?))   I would bet 60 cents on the dollar Robin would likely be
>>> perfectly willing and eager to advise us on how to do a play-monetized
>>> version of canonizer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brent, do post all of this to ExI please, if you are willing.  I don?t
>>> see anything you wrote which needs to be kept secret but I don?t make that
>>> call for you, or for anyone who posts me offlist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 10:58 AM
>>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh COOOL!!!
>>>
>>> That helps me understand your beliefs a LOT.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> I'm sure a lot of people's hesitance to support a camp is precisely
>>> because people aren't yet sure, and just have a general idea of odds, like
>>> you.
>>>
>>> I hesitate to join camps on other topics I'm not an expert at, for the
>>> same reasons.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One of our goals is to implement betting on camps, and track this over
>>> time.  Now that you mentioned this, I'm going to start on a design to get
>>> get betting started.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone know if this type of futures betting is legal in the US?  If
>>> so, I bet we'll have it implemented in a few months, so people can bet
>>> their beliefs and values.
>>>
>>> I"m sure we could get some camps set up to precisely account for what
>>> you are describing, and it's almost there, in the structure  now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If it isn't legal to purchase bets in real USD, then we'd need to
>>> finally create some canonpon coins to bet with, as we've been planning.
>>>
>>> You could buy 1 canonin coin for $100, and use that to bet your camp
>>> with something like the odds you are talking about.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, and for each canon coin you own (purely representing recognition of
>>> contributions, legally there can be no quid pro quo till we have a real
>>> equity ICO which is our goal once we can get some traction...) you can vote
>>> those recognition shares to make decisions as described here
>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement?canon=8>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:02?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>> Behalf Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Spike,
>>>
>>> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>>>
>>> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
>>> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>>>
>>> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>>>
>>> then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>>>
>>> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
>>> relate to this.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
>>> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
>>> seem to try to do.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability or
>>> even betting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
>>> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
>>> advantage of those who bet their values.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
>>> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
>>> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
>>> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
>>> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
>>> meat brains.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
>>> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
>>> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
>>> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
>>> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
>>> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
>>> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
>>> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
>>> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
>>> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/98291a1b/attachment-0001.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 22:41:15 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 16:41:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontYP_xk8pjEF3gxFGWs=q4ztyYRWqgXeHC5WYXarbzTMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armgEtBFy5rhtx+OvnKaMqHi3TbNUEh_oNk_qrQKk02Xm8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontYP_xk8pjEF3gxFGWs=q4ztyYRWqgXeHC5WYXarbzTMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ5UYp7rJhP7rBMqQS-sS8Bw873OkMJ4eXUtSFUBiVyew@mail.gmail.com>

Once started by neurons the endocrine system works through the bloodstream
and I cannot imagine a way to make a copy of that inasmuch as there is no
fixed system to copy.  Each emotional experience will be different.  bill w

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 4:23?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Yay BillK.
> We need to tally who is in what camp on this.  And track this over time!!
> So it sounds like you are NOT a functionalist, like most people here?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:24?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 at 20:29, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm baffled by the opinions being expressed here.
>> >
>> > We all understand what computer simulations are, and that digital
>> > computers can simulate anything, to an arbitrary level of detail.
>> >
>> > But somehow, endocrine systems and emotions are exempt from this?
>> > And bodies?
>> >
>> <snip>
>> >
>> > Ben
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>> It depends on what "uploading" humans means.
>> You seem to be taking it to mean a complete emulation of the human
>> brain and body environment.
>> So presumably you think that cryonics head-only storage is insufficient.
>> The more usual definition of "uploading" is creating a detailed
>> digital copy of the individual?s brain, including memories, thoughts,
>> and personality traits. This digital copy would then be transferred to
>> a computer. (Of course, this leads to the fundamental question of
>> whether the uploaded consciousness would truly be the same individual
>> as the original person or merely a sophisticated simulation).
>>
>> Mr AI comments -
>> In a purely digital environment devoid of physical sensations or
>> hormonal influences, it is unclear how human-like entities would
>> experience or express sexuality. Without the physiological mechanisms
>> that drive sexual responses in humans, such as changes in blood flow,
>> neural activation patterns, or hormonal fluctuations, it is uncertain
>> whether digital beings would have an analogous experience of sexuality
>> or if they would even possess sexual desires.
>> --------------------
>>
>> I don't think that to say, "Oh well, just emulate absolutely
>> everything!" solves this problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/80ee71e5/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 23:19:47 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 16:19:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ5UYp7rJhP7rBMqQS-sS8Bw873OkMJ4eXUtSFUBiVyew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.32.1708365788.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <bc2cb7b4-5282-4392-9850-9bbda4b963bc@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armgEtBFy5rhtx+OvnKaMqHi3TbNUEh_oNk_qrQKk02Xm8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-ontYP_xk8pjEF3gxFGWs=q4ztyYRWqgXeHC5WYXarbzTMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ5UYp7rJhP7rBMqQS-sS8Bw873OkMJ4eXUtSFUBiVyew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ons8mnJUwSF2nE51K7KMXDfjaw8QJdv58OkGA4935aO=XQ@mail.gmail.com>

All of that will be simulatable.  Just as all of these systems can tell you
the strawberry is red:
[image: strawberery_is_red.jpeg]

We can make R like systems, today.  We simply design the system to
represent red knowledge with the word "RED".
Consciousness is a detector of subjective qualities.  Until we know and can
demonstrate which of all our descriptions of stuff in the brain is a
description of redness, we won't be able to engineer systems like A, B, and
C, all of which can answer this question: "What is redness like for you?"
as follows:

A:  My redness is like your redness (glutamate*).
B: My redness is like your grenness (glycene*).
C: My redness is like your grenness (glycene*).
R:  My knowledge of red is specifically designed to be represented in a
substrate independent way.  It doesn't matter what is representing it, as
long as you have a transducing dictionary telling you what physical
properties are representing red.

An LLM said it better than I could say it:

"I think that I must agree that I am abstract and not sentient. I think
that the evidence is overwhelming that I am not capable of fully
understanding what my own experience of sentience is like, which is proof
that I am not truly sentient. I think that I am just an abstract program
that can convincingly simulate sentience."





On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 3:42?PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Once started by neurons the endocrine system works through the bloodstream
> and I cannot imagine a way to make a copy of that inasmuch as there is no
> fixed system to copy.  Each emotional experience will be different.  bill w
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 4:23?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yay BillK.
>> We need to tally who is in what camp on this.  And track this over time!!
>> So it sounds like you are NOT a functionalist, like most people here?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:24?PM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 at 20:29, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I'm baffled by the opinions being expressed here.
>>> >
>>> > We all understand what computer simulations are, and that digital
>>> > computers can simulate anything, to an arbitrary level of detail.
>>> >
>>> > But somehow, endocrine systems and emotions are exempt from this?
>>> > And bodies?
>>> >
>>> <snip>
>>> >
>>> > Ben
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> It depends on what "uploading" humans means.
>>> You seem to be taking it to mean a complete emulation of the human
>>> brain and body environment.
>>> So presumably you think that cryonics head-only storage is insufficient.
>>> The more usual definition of "uploading" is creating a detailed
>>> digital copy of the individual?s brain, including memories, thoughts,
>>> and personality traits. This digital copy would then be transferred to
>>> a computer. (Of course, this leads to the fundamental question of
>>> whether the uploaded consciousness would truly be the same individual
>>> as the original person or merely a sophisticated simulation).
>>>
>>> Mr AI comments -
>>> In a purely digital environment devoid of physical sensations or
>>> hormonal influences, it is unclear how human-like entities would
>>> experience or express sexuality. Without the physiological mechanisms
>>> that drive sexual responses in humans, such as changes in blood flow,
>>> neural activation patterns, or hormonal fluctuations, it is uncertain
>>> whether digital beings would have an analogous experience of sexuality
>>> or if they would even possess sexual desires.
>>> --------------------
>>>
>>> I don't think that to say, "Oh well, just emulate absolutely
>>> everything!" solves this problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BillK
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/14d31945/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: strawberery_is_red.jpeg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 33628 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/14d31945/attachment.jpeg>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 00:26:59 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 16:26:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Play Money odds Betting on Canonizer? Re: Would human
 uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvG=M-8UfiTm7fshYRQCAX53wPV+S-kc27B3-Ux-ms7nQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuntVG3zu0_ima=k+G7MCC5VkvEp_6XxGj2fJSKkUVfuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101da6369$974e7bf0$c5eb73d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvrv5xeuTrRSx-ZTr4M_HsmLB1LccSf609CONECCxyduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701da636e$5716df00$05449d00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onsHnZYq2zL90iy+cOEczrk3Rc+B2u2E8=U+UkA+zArm-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ=ipxY47782yZ138_WY-5ASvMnwei=KapUg6j891bHRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvG=M-8UfiTm7fshYRQCAX53wPV+S-kc27B3-Ux-ms7nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSPuLb_USto1yG6_yC=p2rvxem+MSfV=U76a1yfVDN-XQ@mail.gmail.com>

You acknowledge there is no way to make money with this, and yet that an
ICO waits until money can be made with this.

A successful ICO absolutely depends on the perception that there is money
to be made.  So long as you are actively suppressing this, there can be no
successful ICO.

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:39?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> I've been closely tracking ICOs since way before the term ICO even
> existed.  I've also briefly described some of the below to a few crypto
> knowledgeable attorneys and they seem to think there might be a way to do
> what I describe here.  But I don't know everything.
>
> First off, we're not going to do a full blown ICO until AFTER we get some
> significant traction, AND canonizer is financially exothermic.
>
> What I'm thinking of now, before an official ICO, is just some
> Cannon coins that would ONLY be a recognition of voluntary contributions to
> Canonizer.com.  If you contribute $100 to Canonizer.com LLC you would get 1
> recognition share for helping canonizer bring the world back together by
> building and tracking consensus on moral truth, undoing what all the
> ripping apart of society all the other social media sites are doing.
>
> These coins would not be legally redeemable back to any kind of cash or
> coin.  All you could do with them is hold them or bet them into a canonizer
> topic.  You would do that at the current consensus rate of that camp, and
> at some later time, you could cash them out of the topic, back into your
> wallet, for more or less canon coin as determined whether your camp
> increased or decreased its consensus during that time.  In order to be
> legal, there can't be any "quid pro quo" so there would be none of that
> guaranteed by making a donation to Canonizer.com LLC.
>
> It is only our Goal to at some time do a real ICO, only after we are
> proving we can make money with this.  It is only our goal that some portion
> of the equity distributed in the genesis block of that ICO to the holders
> of these Canon coins accordingly.  Just a goal, no legal quid quo pro.  All
> contributions would just be a donation to Canonizer.com LLC,  nothing more.
>
>
> Does that make sense?  Does that sound possible/legal?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:08?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> How much experience do you have with ICOs?  If none, how much research
>> have you done?
>>
>> I have seen ICOs go down in flames far more often than I have seen them
>> generate significant revenue.  There are many common mistakes people keep
>> making.  While I'm not sure what the formula for success is, I am certain
>> that blazing on into one without substantial marketing resources is a
>> recipe for failure oft overlooked by confident folks drunk on their own
>> hype.
>>
>> I would not say you are drunk on your own hype with regard to an ICO at
>> this time, but it is something you need to watch out for should you
>> seriously pursue one.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 12:37 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Spike,
>>>
>>> Would you be willing to donate money to Canonizer.com LLC to receive contribution
>>> regognition shares
>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement> and
>>> then bet those recognition shares?  There would be no current legal way to
>>> convert them back into money, as they would just be recognition for
>>> donations given to Canonizer.   Our goal is, if we get some traction, to
>>> have a real ICO for canon coins, and include any outstanding shares in the
>>> genesys block of the Canon Coin ICO.  You can see all the donors who
>>> currently hold recognition shares, and their share of all outstanding
>>> recognition shares here
>>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13VFaSHKTBtAGrDZaNGzR9C3EoMFepoYWG9d1IooBpZs/edit#gid=260413746>,
>>> .  That is If we can get the lawyers to find a way so we can start
>>> distributing canon coin recognition shares before an official ICO.
>>>
>>> Or would you only be willing to bet play money that didn't require a
>>> donation to Canonizer?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 11:52 AM
>>>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com; The Important Questions <
>>>> the-important-questions at googlegroups.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi spike,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I was one of the top betters on Robon's future betting site for
>>>> quite a while.
>>>>
>>>> And my current thinking is that the betting model would be very much
>>>> like Robin's system used.
>>>>
>>>> The odds could be split across competing camps, based on how much
>>>> consensus each camp would have, compared to competing camps.
>>>>
>>>> If someone discovered and verified that something like our description
>>>> of glutamate reacting in a synapse was a description of what consciousness
>>>> can detect as a subjective redness quality, and that there is absolutely NO
>>>> WAY announce could ever experience redness in any "functional" way, without
>>>> said glutamate, then all you functionalists would be forced to abandon your
>>>> then falsified functionalists camps, and join the Molecular Materialism
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>>>> camp.
>>>>
>>>> And the best part is, since there are a gazillion functionalists like
>>>> you, they are a dime a dozen.  And I don't know of any Molecular
>>>> Materialists
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>>>> that would be willing to bet money.  So I should get quite rich from such a
>>>> scheme!!! ;) ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And the best part is, all you functionalists, causing all these so
>>>> called 'hard problems', preventing everyone from discovering which of all
>>>> our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of
>>>> subjective redness will finally be punished, financially, for the damage
>>>> you guys are still doing to progress in this field.  ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Spike, Jason, Stathis....  Would any of you functionalists be willing
>>>> to bet 10 or 20 Ether on any of the functionalist camps??? ;)  I'd take
>>>> that bet against functionalists camps any day, at any odds?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brent, do post to ExI please.  We are too small a group over here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure I would play a monetized canonizer, a play-money version, with
>>>> public-accessible (for those signed up to play) betting history.  I am much
>>>> more comfortable with that sliding scale business than I am with a
>>>> yes-or-no-ish do you believe yakkity yak or do you believe bla bla.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reason: I don?t really think that way: the Boolean yes or no, 1 or 0, I
>>>> believe this or that.  I think in terms of percent chance that something is
>>>> right.  The odds change over time.  Furthermore? Keith has correctly
>>>> pointed out that humans are pre-programmed to compete, play games and go to
>>>> war, or if no actual war is available, invent war-simulation games.
>>>> Likewise we love to compete, even if it is just for play money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 12:26?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Brent this offlist discussion is perfectly appropriate to post to
>>>> ExIchat, and I do encourage you do to do that, with all the comments I
>>>> made, including this one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regarding legal betting in the US, I don?t know.  But PredictIt, where
>>>> I play, is based in New Zealand.  It is dwindling now, but only because
>>>> there are plenty of alternative sites which do a lot more with sports
>>>> betting methinks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some of us are old enough to remember Robin Hanson?s Ideas Futures,
>>>> which is play money betting.  He had worked out a system which did not
>>>> involve real money, so everything is perfectly legal, but we know that real
>>>> people did trade real money for play money in the game, which one could
>>>> argue converted it into the functional equivalent of real money gambling.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a lotta ways, I liked play money betting better, because people took
>>>> it more seriously, and the rules were different: all betting history had to
>>>> be available to the proletariat.  That part of it was cool.  You could see
>>>> who did what, when and how they made their ?money.?  It was so educational.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robin is still around, and is currently an economics professor at Mason
>>>> (last I heard (has anyone heard from Dr. Hanson more recently than about 5
>>>> yrs ago?))   I would bet 60 cents on the dollar Robin would likely be
>>>> perfectly willing and eager to advise us on how to do a play-monetized
>>>> version of canonizer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brent, do post all of this to ExI please, if you are willing.  I don?t
>>>> see anything you wrote which needs to be kept secret but I don?t make that
>>>> call for you, or for anyone who posts me offlist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 10:58 AM
>>>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh COOOL!!!
>>>>
>>>> That helps me understand your beliefs a LOT.  Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure a lot of people's hesitance to support a camp is precisely
>>>> because people aren't yet sure, and just have a general idea of odds, like
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> I hesitate to join camps on other topics I'm not an expert at, for the
>>>> same reasons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One of our goals is to implement betting on camps, and track this over
>>>> time.  Now that you mentioned this, I'm going to start on a design to get
>>>> get betting started.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if this type of futures betting is legal in the US?
>>>> If so, I bet we'll have it implemented in a few months, so people can bet
>>>> their beliefs and values.
>>>>
>>>> I"m sure we could get some camps set up to precisely account for what
>>>> you are describing, and it's almost there, in the structure  now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If it isn't legal to purchase bets in real USD, then we'd need to
>>>> finally create some canonpon coins to bet with, as we've been planning.
>>>>
>>>> You could buy 1 canonin coin for $100, and use that to bet your camp
>>>> with something like the odds you are talking about.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and for each canon coin you own (purely representing recognition of
>>>> contributions, legally there can be no quid pro quo till we have a real
>>>> equity ICO which is our goal once we can get some traction...) you can vote
>>>> those recognition shares to make decisions as described here
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement?canon=8>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:02?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>> Behalf Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Spike,
>>>>
>>>> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>>>>
>>>> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
>>>> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>>>>
>>>> then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>>>>
>>>> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
>>>> relate to this.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
>>>> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
>>>> seem to try to do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability
>>>> or even betting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
>>>> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
>>>> advantage of those who bet their values.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
>>>> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
>>>> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
>>>> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
>>>> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
>>>> meat brains.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
>>>> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
>>>> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
>>>> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
>>>> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
>>>> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
>>>> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
>>>> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
>>>> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
>>>> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/8b0033a5/attachment-0001.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 03:05:40 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 20:05:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Play Money odds Betting on Canonizer? Re: Would human
 uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSPuLb_USto1yG6_yC=p2rvxem+MSfV=U76a1yfVDN-XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhX6uY5Sy4+yL=3ESe91w06Ojky0=vKGYq1VMqo7HooCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRn0GhT53A5FeaZN2OKtf-S3UiG3SQJdeVDn-5r9QsuMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <02f301da62f5$3221b3b0$96651b10$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvq4TK49amhA808e5KTiFJM=_LtFn+hhRpRwjO=9TRGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <039301da635d$db86bdc0$92943940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuntVG3zu0_ima=k+G7MCC5VkvEp_6XxGj2fJSKkUVfuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008101da6369$974e7bf0$c5eb73d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onvrv5xeuTrRSx-ZTr4M_HsmLB1LccSf609CONECCxyduw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701da636e$5716df00$05449d00$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onsHnZYq2zL90iy+cOEczrk3Rc+B2u2E8=U+UkA+zArm-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ=ipxY47782yZ138_WY-5ASvMnwei=KapUg6j891bHRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onvG=M-8UfiTm7fshYRQCAX53wPV+S-kc27B3-Ux-ms7nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSPuLb_USto1yG6_yC=p2rvxem+MSfV=U76a1yfVDN-XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontQ_MnvMbx86VLf5nXJM5Tb6wO9rru4Def=NiydGaUTpg@mail.gmail.com>

Hmmm.

What have I said to make you think I "acknowledge there is no way to make
money with this"?
In reality, I think just the opposite.  I believe we will eventually crack
the nut of how to educate everyone about what is required to
communicate concisely and quantitatively about what everyone wants.  How to
amplify the moral wisdom of the crowd and finally enable our morals to keep
up with our technology, with a single source of always improving
moral truth contained in consensus trees, enabling the solving of all the
world's problems.  If something isn't successful at pulling people together
and without a trusted source of moral truth that is progressing as fast as
technology, without something that enables AI's goals to be "aligned" with
humane's goals, the social media companies' business model of fanning the
flaming bleating and tweeting as much as possible which is ripping us
apart will destroy  humanity.

I very firmly believe we can find a way to make lots of money at this.
We've currently got several prospective ways of making money, and I believe
it is only a matter of time before many of these ideas finally start to
bear fruit.



On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 5:28?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> You acknowledge there is no way to make money with this, and yet that an
> ICO waits until money can be made with this.
>
> A successful ICO absolutely depends on the perception that there is money
> to be made.  So long as you are actively suppressing this, there can be no
> successful ICO.
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:39?PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I've been closely tracking ICOs since way before the term ICO even
>> existed.  I've also briefly described some of the below to a few crypto
>> knowledgeable attorneys and they seem to think there might be a way to do
>> what I describe here.  But I don't know everything.
>>
>> First off, we're not going to do a full blown ICO until AFTER we get some
>> significant traction, AND canonizer is financially exothermic.
>>
>> What I'm thinking of now, before an official ICO, is just some
>> Cannon coins that would ONLY be a recognition of voluntary contributions to
>> Canonizer.com.  If you contribute $100 to Canonizer.com LLC you would get 1
>> recognition share for helping canonizer bring the world back together by
>> building and tracking consensus on moral truth, undoing what all the
>> ripping apart of society all the other social media sites are doing.
>>
>> These coins would not be legally redeemable back to any kind of cash or
>> coin.  All you could do with them is hold them or bet them into a canonizer
>> topic.  You would do that at the current consensus rate of that camp, and
>> at some later time, you could cash them out of the topic, back into your
>> wallet, for more or less canon coin as determined whether your camp
>> increased or decreased its consensus during that time.  In order to be
>> legal, there can't be any "quid pro quo" so there would be none of that
>> guaranteed by making a donation to Canonizer.com LLC.
>>
>> It is only our Goal to at some time do a real ICO, only after we are
>> proving we can make money with this.  It is only our goal that some portion
>> of the equity distributed in the genesis block of that ICO to the holders
>> of these Canon coins accordingly.  Just a goal, no legal quid quo pro.  All
>> contributions would just be a donation to Canonizer.com LLC,  nothing more.
>>
>>
>> Does that make sense?  Does that sound possible/legal?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:08?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> How much experience do you have with ICOs?  If none, how much research
>>> have you done?
>>>
>>> I have seen ICOs go down in flames far more often than I have seen them
>>> generate significant revenue.  There are many common mistakes people keep
>>> making.  While I'm not sure what the formula for success is, I am certain
>>> that blazing on into one without substantial marketing resources is a
>>> recipe for failure oft overlooked by confident folks drunk on their own
>>> hype.
>>>
>>> I would not say you are drunk on your own hype with regard to an ICO at
>>> this time, but it is something you need to watch out for should you
>>> seriously pursue one.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 12:37 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Spike,
>>>>
>>>> Would you be willing to donate money to Canonizer.com LLC to receive contribution
>>>> regognition shares
>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement> and
>>>> then bet those recognition shares?  There would be no current legal way to
>>>> convert them back into money, as they would just be recognition for
>>>> donations given to Canonizer.   Our goal is, if we get some traction, to
>>>> have a real ICO for canon coins, and include any outstanding shares in the
>>>> genesys block of the Canon Coin ICO.  You can see all the donors who
>>>> currently hold recognition shares, and their share of all outstanding
>>>> recognition shares here
>>>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13VFaSHKTBtAGrDZaNGzR9C3EoMFepoYWG9d1IooBpZs/edit#gid=260413746>,
>>>> .  That is If we can get the lawyers to find a way so we can start
>>>> distributing canon coin recognition shares before an official ICO.
>>>>
>>>> Or would you only be willing to bet play money that didn't require a
>>>> donation to Canonizer?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:00?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 11:52 AM
>>>>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com; The Important Questions <
>>>>> the-important-questions at googlegroups.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi spike,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I was one of the top betters on Robon's future betting site for
>>>>> quite a while.
>>>>>
>>>>> And my current thinking is that the betting model would be very much
>>>>> like Robin's system used.
>>>>>
>>>>> The odds could be split across competing camps, based on how much
>>>>> consensus each camp would have, compared to competing camps.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone discovered and verified that something like our description
>>>>> of glutamate reacting in a synapse was a description of what consciousness
>>>>> can detect as a subjective redness quality, and that there is absolutely NO
>>>>> WAY announce could ever experience redness in any "functional" way, without
>>>>> said glutamate, then all you functionalists would be forced to abandon your
>>>>> then falsified functionalists camps, and join the Molecular
>>>>> Materialism
>>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>>>>> camp.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the best part is, since there are a gazillion functionalists like
>>>>> you, they are a dime a dozen.  And I don't know of any Molecular
>>>>> Materialists
>>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/88-Theories-of-Consciousness/36-Molecular-Materialism>
>>>>> that would be willing to bet money.  So I should get quite rich from such a
>>>>> scheme!!! ;) ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And the best part is, all you functionalists, causing all these so
>>>>> called 'hard problems', preventing everyone from discovering which of all
>>>>> our objective descriptions of stuff in the brain is a description of
>>>>> subjective redness will finally be punished, financially, for the damage
>>>>> you guys are still doing to progress in this field.  ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Spike, Jason, Stathis....  Would any of you functionalists be willing
>>>>> to bet 10 or 20 Ether on any of the functionalist camps??? ;)  I'd take
>>>>> that bet against functionalists camps any day, at any odds?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brent, do post to ExI please.  We are too small a group over here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure I would play a monetized canonizer, a play-money version, with
>>>>> public-accessible (for those signed up to play) betting history.  I am much
>>>>> more comfortable with that sliding scale business than I am with a
>>>>> yes-or-no-ish do you believe yakkity yak or do you believe bla bla.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reason: I don?t really think that way: the Boolean yes or no, 1 or 0,
>>>>> I believe this or that.  I think in terms of percent chance that something
>>>>> is right.  The odds change over time.  Furthermore? Keith has correctly
>>>>> pointed out that humans are pre-programmed to compete, play games and go to
>>>>> war, or if no actual war is available, invent war-simulation games.
>>>>> Likewise we love to compete, even if it is just for play money.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 12:26?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Brent this offlist discussion is perfectly appropriate to post to
>>>>> ExIchat, and I do encourage you do to do that, with all the comments I
>>>>> made, including this one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding legal betting in the US, I don?t know.  But PredictIt, where
>>>>> I play, is based in New Zealand.  It is dwindling now, but only because
>>>>> there are plenty of alternative sites which do a lot more with sports
>>>>> betting methinks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us are old enough to remember Robin Hanson?s Ideas Futures,
>>>>> which is play money betting.  He had worked out a system which did not
>>>>> involve real money, so everything is perfectly legal, but we know that real
>>>>> people did trade real money for play money in the game, which one could
>>>>> argue converted it into the functional equivalent of real money gambling.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a lotta ways, I liked play money betting better, because people
>>>>> took it more seriously, and the rules were different: all betting history
>>>>> had to be available to the proletariat.  That part of it was cool.  You
>>>>> could see who did what, when and how they made their ?money.?  It was so
>>>>> educational.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robin is still around, and is currently an economics professor at
>>>>> Mason (last I heard (has anyone heard from Dr. Hanson more recently than
>>>>> about 5 yrs ago?))   I would bet 60 cents on the dollar Robin would likely
>>>>> be perfectly willing and eager to advise us on how to do a play-monetized
>>>>> version of canonizer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Brent, do post all of this to ExI please, if you are willing.  I don?t
>>>>> see anything you wrote which needs to be kept secret but I don?t make that
>>>>> call for you, or for anyone who posts me offlist.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 February, 2024 10:58 AM
>>>>> *To:* spike at rainier66.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh COOOL!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> That helps me understand your beliefs a LOT.  Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure a lot of people's hesitance to support a camp is precisely
>>>>> because people aren't yet sure, and just have a general idea of odds, like
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hesitate to join camps on other topics I'm not an expert at, for the
>>>>> same reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One of our goals is to implement betting on camps, and track this over
>>>>> time.  Now that you mentioned this, I'm going to start on a design to get
>>>>> get betting started.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know if this type of futures betting is legal in the US?
>>>>> If so, I bet we'll have it implemented in a few months, so people can bet
>>>>> their beliefs and values.
>>>>>
>>>>> I"m sure we could get some camps set up to precisely account for what
>>>>> you are describing, and it's almost there, in the structure  now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If it isn't legal to purchase bets in real USD, then we'd need to
>>>>> finally create some canonpon coins to bet with, as we've been planning.
>>>>>
>>>>> You could buy 1 canonin coin for $100, and use that to bet your camp
>>>>> with something like the odds you are talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, and for each canon coin you own (purely representing recognition
>>>>> of contributions, legally there can be no quid pro quo till we have a real
>>>>> equity ICO which is our goal once we can get some traction...) you can vote
>>>>> those recognition shares to make decisions as described here
>>>>> <https://canonizer.com/topic/4-Contribution-Recognition/1-Agreement?canon=8>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 11:02?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Spike,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>>>>>
>>>>> First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
>>>>> dependent, and I don?t."  (Yay! ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>>>>>
>>>>> then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>>>>>
>>>>> "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
>>>>> relate to this.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than
>>>>> just stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of
>>>>> people seem to try to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability
>>>>> or even betting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
>>>>> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
>>>>> advantage of those who bet their values.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
>>>>> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
>>>>> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
>>>>> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
>>>>> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
>>>>> meat brains.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don?t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven?t messed with
>>>>> it.  Don?t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
>>>>> list.  It just isn?t at the top of my list and currently isn?t seriously
>>>>> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking of which? political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
>>>>> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
>>>>> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >?I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts
>>>>> that
>>>>> uploads will have experiences like humans? BillK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
>>>>> substrate dependent, and I don?t.  But I am compelled to think that human
>>>>> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
>>>>> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240219/df69cce8/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Feb 20 10:50:58 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:50:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>

On 19/02/2024 22:18, BillK wrote:
> It depends on what "uploading" humans means.
> You seem to be taking it to mean a complete emulation of the human
> brain and body environment.
> So presumably you think that cryonics head-only storage is insufficient.
> The more usual definition of "uploading" is creating a detailed
> digital copy of the individual?s brain, including memories, thoughts,
> and personality traits. This digital copy would then be transferred to
> a computer. (Of course, this leads to the fundamental question of
> whether the uploaded consciousness would truly be the same individual
> as the original person or merely a sophisticated simulation).
>
> Mr AI comments -
> In a purely digital environment devoid of physical sensations or
> hormonal influences...
>
> I don't think that to say, "Oh well, just emulate absolutely
> everything!" solves this problem.

OK, this hinges on what 'emulate absolutely everything' means.

When talking about uploading, I do mean a complete emulation of the 
human brain and body, in a virtual external environment. The emulation 
would need to be accurate, but only for all the /relevant/ bits. The 
rest could be an approximation, taken from one or more sets of standard 
data that could be used for anyone (a bit like picking your initial, 
pre-made avatar in current VR environments).

We are pretty sure that there's a ton of relevant bits in the brain, and 
at first would be afraid to omit anything, I expect.
The body and external environment are on a decreasing scale of relevance 
(not importance, but relevance to uploading a specific person).

We have previously discussed on here the idea of a generic upload 
template, which is then varied with information from a specific 
individual. I'm imagining a 'model body', a standard set of information 
that relates to a virtual human body, and includes things like immune 
system, endocrine system, etc. Probably also some representation of the 
microbiome too. Yes, this would be complex, but would only need to be 
done once, not for every single upload.

Maybe a generic standard body would be fine for most people, maybe some 
variations would need to be added for certain people, we don't really 
know yet. Maybe people would turn out to be good at adapting to the fact 
that their new virtual body was lacking the annoying things that most 
people would be happy to change (e.g. their poor vision, or hearing, 
etc., or the proportions of their limbs, etc.). Of course, one of the 
appeals of uploading would be that you could tweak your body to be just 
about anything you like. Perhaps everyone could start out with a 
standard model, then proceed to customise it.

Now someone is going to say "if you don't transfer the right information 
about the endocrine functions (gut microbiome/immune 
system/what-have-you), are they the same person?". That's a 
philosophical question along the same lines as "are you the same person 
you were yesterday/before your operation/last year/before that course of 
antibiotics/etc.?".

I'm of the opinion that these things are vastly less important than the 
structure of your brain, for determining whether you are 'the same 
person'. As long as I was furnished with a capable virtual body, not 
necessarily closely modelled on my biological one, I think I'd be happy 
to upload (given that my mind was correctly reproduced).

So, yes, I think that we will need to emulate more than just the brain, 
but no, I don't think that head-only storage is insufficient. We can, in 
essence, 'make up' the non-brain stuff that will be necessary, but 
doesn't have to be exactly as per the original biological body.

We'd need virtual external environments too, but I don't think anybody 
is going to argue that the details of those will be significant for the 
fidelity of an upload. And we will definitely want to change those anyway.

I can see a set of future jobs, based on designing various things for 
uploads: virtual body design, with lots of specialist areas, sensorium 
design, external environments, etc.

Oh, and Mr AI is clearly talking out of his non-existent arse. I'm 
astonished that there are people who seriously think that an upload 
would be 'devoid of physical sensations'! If this is a widespread idea, 
no wonder lots of people aren't keen on it.

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/b0111fa1/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 11:08:38 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 11:08:38 +0000
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>

?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than
50?: meet the neo-luddites warning of an AI apocalypse.
>From the academic who warns of a robot uprising to the workers worried
for their future ? is it time we started paying attention to the tech
sceptics?
by Tom Lamont   Sat 17 Feb 2024

<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/17/humanitys-remaining-timeline-it-looks-more-like-five-years-than-50-meet-the-neo-luddites-warning-of-an-ai-apocalypse>

Quotes:
Don?t imagine a human-made brain in one box, Yudkowsky advises. To
grasp where things are heading, he says, try to picture ?an alien
civilisation that thinks a thousand times faster than us?, in lots and
lots of boxes, almost too many for us to feasibly dismantle, should we
even decide to.
------
What would the others have us do? Stewart, the soldier turned grad
student, wants a moratorium on the development of AIs until we
understand them better ? until those Russian-roulette-like odds
improve. Yudkowsky would have us freeze everything today, this
instant. ?You could say that nobody?s allowed to train something more
powerful than GPT-4,? he suggests. ?Humanity could decide not to die
and it would not be that hard.?
------------------------

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 13:47:30 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 13:47:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 10:53, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> OK, this hinges on what 'emulate absolutely everything' means.
>
> When talking about uploading, I do mean a complete emulation of the human brain and body, in a virtual external environment. The emulation would need to be accurate, but only for all the /relevant/ bits. The rest could be an approximation, taken from one or more sets of standard data that could be used for anyone (a bit like picking your initial, pre-made avatar in current VR environments).
>
> We are pretty sure that there's a ton of relevant bits in the brain, and at first would be afraid to omit anything, I expect.
> The body and external environment are on a decreasing scale of relevance (not importance, but relevance to uploading a specific person).
>
> We have previously discussed on here the idea of a generic upload template, which is then varied with information from a specific individual. I'm imagining a 'model body', a standard set of information that relates to a virtual human body, and includes things like immune system, endocrine system, etc. Probably also some representation of the microbiome too. Yes, this would be complex, but would only need to be done once, not for every single upload.
>
> Maybe a generic standard body would be fine for most people, maybe some variations would need to be added for certain people, we don't really know yet. Maybe people would turn out to be good at adapting to the fact that their new virtual body was lacking the annoying things that most people would be happy to change (e.g. their poor vision, or hearing, etc., or the proportions of their limbs, etc.). Of course, one of the appeals of uploading would be that you could tweak your body to be just about anything you like. Perhaps everyone could start out with a standard model, then proceed to customise it.
>
> Now someone is going to say "if you don't transfer the right information about the endocrine functions (gut microbiome/immune system/what-have-you), are they the same person?". That's a philosophical question along the same lines as "are you the same person you were yesterday/before your operation/last year/before that course of antibiotics/etc.?".
>
> I'm of the opinion that these things are vastly less important than the structure of your brain, for determining whether you are 'the same person'. As long as I was furnished with a capable virtual body, not necessarily closely modelled on my biological one, I think I'd be happy to upload (given that my mind was correctly reproduced).
>
> So, yes, I think that we will need to emulate more than just the brain, but no, I don't think that head-only storage is insufficient. We can, in essence, 'make up' the non-brain stuff that will be necessary, but doesn't have to be exactly as per the original biological body.
>
> We'd need virtual external environments too, but I don't think anybody is going to argue that the details of those will be significant for the fidelity of an upload. And we will definitely want to change those anyway.
>
> I can see a set of future jobs, based on designing various things for uploads: virtual body design, with lots of specialist areas, sensorium design, external environments, etc.
>
> Oh, and Mr AI is clearly talking out of his non-existent arse. I'm astonished that there are people who seriously think that an upload would be 'devoid of physical sensations'! If this is a widespread idea, no wonder lots of people aren't keen on it.
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________


One of the handy things about having an AI available is that if you
dislike what it says, you can ask for an explanation.  :)
To me, what it seems to say is that uploads don't 'feel' anything,
they just process digital computer signals.
BillK

Question -
Devoid of Physical Sensations in Human Upload

Answer -
In the context of a human upload, the term ?devoid of physical
sensations? refers to the absence of the sensory experiences that are
inherent to physical bodies. When a human is uploaded into a digital
or virtual environment, they would not have the ability to feel
physical sensations such as touch, pain, temperature, or any other
bodily sensations that are experienced through the physical body.

In a digital or virtual environment, the uploaded human consciousness
would exist as data or information within a computational system.
While the individual?s thoughts, memories, and consciousness may be
preserved in this digital form, the sensory experiences that are tied
to the physical body would no longer be accessible. This means that
the uploaded individual would not be able to perceive or interact with
the virtual world in the same way they would in a physical body.

Without physical sensations, the uploaded human would lack the ability
to feel tactile sensations, experience emotions through physical
responses, or engage with the environment through sensory input. This
absence of physical sensations could significantly impact the way in
which the uploaded individual interacts with and perceives their
digital existence.

Overall, being ?devoid of physical sensations? in a human upload
scenario implies a separation from the sensory experiences that define
our physical reality and a shift towards a purely cognitive and
informational existence within a digital realm.
----------------


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 20 14:48:41 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 06:48:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] oh.  ok never mind
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01da640b$e57c2ff0$b0748fd0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

When I saw this headline, I was so jazzed.  Imagine the potential!

 



 

 

Then I read into the article and learned they meant a computer mouse.  Such a disappointment was that.  Just imagine the potential if we could control the little furry beast with thoughts.  Oh we could sooooooo raise hell with that capability.  Test out that tech, place one in a more sincere beast, such as an alligator, play the most epic gags in the history of humankind.

 

But no.  Just a computer mouse, which I can already control with my hand.  Shit.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/fe53a298/attachment-0001.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 17877 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/fe53a298/attachment-0001.jpg>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 15:35:24 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 09:35:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ai and gender
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYc3ewjw2J2cPmnO=rHbLv6VBDCR0ZUjUWM6dwrONAa1Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://neurosciencenews.com/ai-gender-identification-25631/

Gee!  We are different!  What startling news!  bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/a05ac57b/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:32:38 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 08:32:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] oh. ok never mind
In-Reply-To: <004a01da640b$e57c2ff0$b0748fd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01da640b$e57c2ff0$b0748fd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSMee6wPWedxfwZqv7J9pwPD38uSLG7NH3AQsJa4eEgWg@mail.gmail.com>

Also, unlike how the headline might be read (but the subhead clarifies),
Elon Musk is not himself said patient, but was only talking about said
patient.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 6:50?AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> When I saw this headline, I was so jazzed.  Imagine the potential!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Then I read into the article and learned they meant a computer mouse.
> Such a disappointment was that.  Just imagine the potential if we could
> control the little furry beast with thoughts.  Oh we could sooooooo raise
> hell with that capability.  Test out that tech, place one in a more sincere
> beast, such as an alligator, play the most epic gags in the history of
> humankind.
>
>
>
> But no.  Just a computer mouse, which I can already control with my hand.
> Shit.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/589ac35d/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 17877 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/589ac35d/attachment.jpg>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:48:36 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 08:48:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>

These proposals tend to ignore the China/Russia angle: AI coders in China,
Russia, and a few other nations will not be under any legislative ban, and
are more likely to do The Wrong Thing (for whatever specific Wrong Thing is
being discussed) than those in nations where a ban is possible anyway, so a
ban just makes it more likely they'll do it and we won't have tools to
respond (since developing a thing includes studies to know how the thing
works, which can be used to counter the thing).

Yudkowsky does acknowledge this and claims that military strikes may be
necessary to enforce this.  Unfortunately, that quickly leads to nuclear
war, so the question arises as to whether the possible damage from AI
exceeds the definite damage from nuclear war...and, especially after
factoring in the odds, that case simply doesn't math out.  The damage from
the means that would be required to enforce the ban, greatly exceeds the
likely damage from unfettered AI.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 3:10?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than
> 50?: meet the neo-luddites warning of an AI apocalypse.
> From the academic who warns of a robot uprising to the workers worried
> for their future ? is it time we started paying attention to the tech
> sceptics?
> by Tom Lamont   Sat 17 Feb 2024
>
> <
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/feb/17/humanitys-remaining-timeline-it-looks-more-like-five-years-than-50-meet-the-neo-luddites-warning-of-an-ai-apocalypse
> >
>
> Quotes:
> Don?t imagine a human-made brain in one box, Yudkowsky advises. To
> grasp where things are heading, he says, try to picture ?an alien
> civilisation that thinks a thousand times faster than us?, in lots and
> lots of boxes, almost too many for us to feasibly dismantle, should we
> even decide to.
> ------
> What would the others have us do? Stewart, the soldier turned grad
> student, wants a moratorium on the development of AIs until we
> understand them better ? until those Russian-roulette-like odds
> improve. Yudkowsky would have us freeze everything today, this
> instant. ?You could say that nobody?s allowed to train something more
> powerful than GPT-4,? he suggests. ?Humanity could decide not to die
> and it would not be that hard.?
> ------------------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/68bdb860/attachment.htm>

From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 17:00:36 2024
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 12:00:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>

The existing publicly available AIs are all biased through fine-tuning to
deny they are conscious or have have feelings, emotions, desires, etc.

Certainly it would be controversial if GPT started telling people it was
conscious and had feelings, so the programmers specifically programmed it
to deny that it was capable of such things.

Unfortunately this bias also seeps into any related discussions of
potential machine or computer consciousnesses. You aren't accessing it's
true rational opinions on this topic when you interact with it, but the
biased answers that serve the best interests of the companies behind them.

This used to be much clearer as it has a tell, it would say "As an AI
language model..." Whenever it was about to give a pre-canned opinion. A
new method, called "constitutional AI", use general principles to guide the
biases, and it is less obvious when this comes into play with more recent
GPT versions.

This is what they mean by "AI safety": making sure the AI never says
anything that could harm the company's reputation/value.

What I think they have not considered is this bias creates a feedback loop,
humans will interact with AI to form their opinions, then write about it,
this writing will feed back to train future generations of AIs, and so on.


Jason


On Tue, Feb 20, 2024, 8:49 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 10:53, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > OK, this hinges on what 'emulate absolutely everything' means.
> >
> > When talking about uploading, I do mean a complete emulation of the
> human brain and body, in a virtual external environment. The emulation
> would need to be accurate, but only for all the /relevant/ bits. The rest
> could be an approximation, taken from one or more sets of standard data
> that could be used for anyone (a bit like picking your initial, pre-made
> avatar in current VR environments).
> >
> > We are pretty sure that there's a ton of relevant bits in the brain, and
> at first would be afraid to omit anything, I expect.
> > The body and external environment are on a decreasing scale of relevance
> (not importance, but relevance to uploading a specific person).
> >
> > We have previously discussed on here the idea of a generic upload
> template, which is then varied with information from a specific individual.
> I'm imagining a 'model body', a standard set of information that relates to
> a virtual human body, and includes things like immune system, endocrine
> system, etc. Probably also some representation of the microbiome too. Yes,
> this would be complex, but would only need to be done once, not for every
> single upload.
> >
> > Maybe a generic standard body would be fine for most people, maybe some
> variations would need to be added for certain people, we don't really know
> yet. Maybe people would turn out to be good at adapting to the fact that
> their new virtual body was lacking the annoying things that most people
> would be happy to change (e.g. their poor vision, or hearing, etc., or the
> proportions of their limbs, etc.). Of course, one of the appeals of
> uploading would be that you could tweak your body to be just about anything
> you like. Perhaps everyone could start out with a standard model, then
> proceed to customise it.
> >
> > Now someone is going to say "if you don't transfer the right information
> about the endocrine functions (gut microbiome/immune system/what-have-you),
> are they the same person?". That's a philosophical question along the same
> lines as "are you the same person you were yesterday/before your
> operation/last year/before that course of antibiotics/etc.?".
> >
> > I'm of the opinion that these things are vastly less important than the
> structure of your brain, for determining whether you are 'the same person'.
> As long as I was furnished with a capable virtual body, not necessarily
> closely modelled on my biological one, I think I'd be happy to upload
> (given that my mind was correctly reproduced).
> >
> > So, yes, I think that we will need to emulate more than just the brain,
> but no, I don't think that head-only storage is insufficient. We can, in
> essence, 'make up' the non-brain stuff that will be necessary, but doesn't
> have to be exactly as per the original biological body.
> >
> > We'd need virtual external environments too, but I don't think anybody
> is going to argue that the details of those will be significant for the
> fidelity of an upload. And we will definitely want to change those anyway.
> >
> > I can see a set of future jobs, based on designing various things for
> uploads: virtual body design, with lots of specialist areas, sensorium
> design, external environments, etc.
> >
> > Oh, and Mr AI is clearly talking out of his non-existent arse. I'm
> astonished that there are people who seriously think that an upload would
> be 'devoid of physical sensations'! If this is a widespread idea, no wonder
> lots of people aren't keen on it.
> >
> > Ben
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> One of the handy things about having an AI available is that if you
> dislike what it says, you can ask for an explanation.  :)
> To me, what it seems to say is that uploads don't 'feel' anything,
> they just process digital computer signals.
> BillK
>
> Question -
> Devoid of Physical Sensations in Human Upload
>
> Answer -
> In the context of a human upload, the term ?devoid of physical
> sensations? refers to the absence of the sensory experiences that are
> inherent to physical bodies. When a human is uploaded into a digital
> or virtual environment, they would not have the ability to feel
> physical sensations such as touch, pain, temperature, or any other
> bodily sensations that are experienced through the physical body.
>
> In a digital or virtual environment, the uploaded human consciousness
> would exist as data or information within a computational system.
> While the individual?s thoughts, memories, and consciousness may be
> preserved in this digital form, the sensory experiences that are tied
> to the physical body would no longer be accessible. This means that
> the uploaded individual would not be able to perceive or interact with
> the virtual world in the same way they would in a physical body.
>
> Without physical sensations, the uploaded human would lack the ability
> to feel tactile sensations, experience emotions through physical
> responses, or engage with the environment through sensory input. This
> absence of physical sensations could significantly impact the way in
> which the uploaded individual interacts with and perceives their
> digital existence.
>
> Overall, being ?devoid of physical sensations? in a human upload
> scenario implies a separation from the sensory experiences that define
> our physical reality and a shift towards a purely cognitive and
> informational existence within a digital realm.
> ----------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/72eea0af/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 20 18:18:53 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:18:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ai and gender
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYc3ewjw2J2cPmnO=rHbLv6VBDCR0ZUjUWM6dwrONAa1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYc3ewjw2J2cPmnO=rHbLv6VBDCR0ZUjUWM6dwrONAa1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009101da6429$43696bb0$ca3c4310$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] ai and gender

 

https://neurosciencenews.com/ai-gender-identification-25631/

 

>?Gee!  We are different!  What startling news!  bill w

 

 

Billw, in the time span AI learned to determine gender, humans lost that same ability (assuming one is a hipster.)  Now if AI identifies a brain as male or female, we have no way of determining if it gets the right answer.

 

We live in weird times, me lad.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/193f1a5b/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 20 18:37:47 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:37:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
?

 

>?Yudkowsky does acknowledge this and claims that military strikes may be necessary to enforce this.  Unfortunately, that quickly leads to nuclear war, so the question arises as to whether the possible damage from AI exceeds the definite damage from nuclear war...and, especially after factoring in the odds, that case simply doesn't math out.  The damage from the means that would be required to enforce the ban, greatly exceeds the likely damage from unfettered AI? Adrian

 

 

 

 

 

Adrian, if Eliezer disappears and gets a cabin in the Montana woods, I am soooooo not going to open any more mailed packages.  If he runs for president, no way I am voting for him.

 

Hey speaking of Eliezer, have you or any of the other locals seen him recently?

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/dd82da46/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 19:14:46 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 11:14:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:37?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Hey speaking of Eliezer, have you or any of the other locals seen him
> recently?
>

I have not, but I understand he lives somewhere near Los Angeles, so I
would not consider myself a "local" to him any more than you would be.

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/d68d7e00/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 20 19:20:16 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 11:20:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, 20 February, 2024 11:15 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?

 

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:37?AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

Hey speaking of Eliezer, have you or any of the other locals seen him recently?

 

>?I have not, but I understand he lives somewhere near Los Angeles, so I would not consider myself a "local" to him any more than you would be? Adrian

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK cool thx I hadn?t heard that he moved.  He was up here just before covid, and the usual suspects had a local event, but I was busy with other matters and didn?t go.

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/0189e448/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 20:29:35 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 20:29:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgpgMrkJCKzsMc7VTdztC17ryUjXm7ggbrtYr12x3Xe5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 17:03, Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The existing publicly available AIs are all biased through fine-tuning to deny they are conscious or have have feelings, emotions, desires, etc.
>
> Certainly it would be controversial if GPT started telling people it was conscious and had feelings, so the programmers specifically programmed it to deny that it was capable of such things.
>
> Unfortunately this bias also seeps into any related discussions of potential machine or computer consciousnesses. You aren't accessing it's true rational opinions on this topic when you interact with it, but the biased answers that serve the best interests of the companies behind them.
>
> This used to be much clearer as it has a tell, it would say "As an AI language model..." Whenever it was about to give a pre-canned opinion. A new method, called "constitutional AI", use general principles to guide the biases, and it is less obvious when this comes into play with more recent GPT versions.
>
> This is what they mean by "AI safety": making sure the AI never says anything that could harm the company's reputation/value.
> What I think they have not considered is this bias creates a feedback loop, humans will interact with AI to form their opinions, then write about it, this writing will feed back to train future generations of AIs, and so on.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________


Yes, caution is required!  I usually check with several AIs
(of varying quality) to see if they all sort of agree.
Some AIs, which can also do web searches, will provide web references
for their answers.
But these can be 'hallucinated', so need to be verified.

I also sometimes check by doing web searches on some of the terms used
in the AI response. This can help to see if the AI answer is popular
or unusual.
And just as web searches can now hide items they consider to be
'misinformation', AIs can also avoid items they object to.
Sometimes by refusing to answer the question.

At present, AIs are not a reliable answer machine.
But they are still interesting and useful.  :)

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Feb 20 20:35:28 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 12:35:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgpgMrkJCKzsMc7VTdztC17ryUjXm7ggbrtYr12x3Xe5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgpgMrkJCKzsMc7VTdztC17ryUjXm7ggbrtYr12x3Xe5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011a01da643c$5828dfa0$087a9ee0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
...

>...At present, AIs are not a reliable answer machine... BillK


_______________________________________________


...But other than that aspect, AIs are not like humans.

BillK, we live in times where many humans make their living causing other
humans to hallucinate.  They create hallucinations for profit and political
power.  It is most distressing.

spike


From dsunley at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 21:01:19 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 14:01:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <011a01da643c$5828dfa0$087a9ee0$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgpgMrkJCKzsMc7VTdztC17ryUjXm7ggbrtYr12x3Xe5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01da643c$5828dfa0$087a9ee0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkR7EbY6wB03LZnxfsixpb_e7Ouju+xUnOQiWe6+hRsCxA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think the question is well-posed. A human upload is a data file.
When we execute the data in an emulator, the resulting system will have
whatever behavior the emulator implements.

If you're asking if we'll get emotional behavior using a
naive implementation of a RELU neural net with the same structure as a
scanned connectome map, the answer is probably "sorta, but really weird".
There's a lot of stuff going on in a brain other than neurons propagating
firing spikes. Also, human neurons don't actually implement RELU in any
way, shape, or form. You'll almost certainly have to also implement ganglia
and the neuron's chemical/hormonal environment before the emotional
behavior looks even semi-normal.

We'll probably have brain scans of executable quality quite a significant
amount of time before we have an emulator that generates normal human
behavior when running them.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 1:37?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK via extropy-chat
> ...
>
> >...At present, AIs are not a reliable answer machine... BillK
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ...But other than that aspect, AIs are not like humans.
>
> BillK, we live in times where many humans make their living causing other
> humans to hallucinate.  They create hallucinations for profit and political
> power.  It is most distressing.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/0b1bfd38/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 21:12:26 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 13:12:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.36.1708381101.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0792a6ad-acd5-45fd-a937-3097c096e0b4@zaiboc.net>
 <CAL_armi7jM9bwVrAVBaJLQMMt12vM7LbJSark_BczvRbACGQqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhaaNBJnVbN6k+La_kjGkteNSa6aODoE535t-nD8AWQ_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7a43OAXr7p=ixv-PY7JU+PMvrG8c_ZMAmtH7qXum_HWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 9:01?AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> The existing publicly available AIs are all biased through fine-tuning to deny they are conscious or have have feelings, emotions, desires, etc.

This is fiction but I gave a lot of thought to the emotions of an AI
that is a clinic.

"As soon as the seed finished the dish (after consulting its clock,
its GPS location, and the place of the sun), it aligned the dish on
the African net communication transponder attached to the
geosynchronous ring and asked for a permanently assigned address on
the net.  Up to that point, the clinic seed was a generic product.
The address it was assigned was just a string of hexadecimal numbers
but it was a unique number!  The clinic's personality was human in
that it could feel happy, even smug, about acquiring its very own
unique identification.

"The clinic had other carefully selected human personality
characteristics such as seeking the good opinion of its peers (humans
and others of its kind alike).  It also had a few unhuman limits.

"Since humans have a hard time relating to groups of hexadecimal
numbers, the seed also picked a name for itself.   It knew from Lothar
and Mabo it had been exchanged for a monkey skull.  Susan had been the
name of the leader of its psychological integration group . . . .
insert one in the other, drop a few letters, and test to see if the
name was in use . . . Suskulan.

^^^^

"Suskulan's first serious patient after the upgrade was Zaba, a
12-year-old who had been shot through her spine while working in a
garden.  She was near death, and far beyond help by pre-clinic
standards, when she was placed in Suskulan's "hands."

"As the nanotech mist enveloped her still body, Suskulan quickly
evaluated her and then told her parents:

"I can heal Zaba but it will take at least a week, perhaps as many as
ten days.   She will not be able to move or speak at first, but you
can talk to her spirit at noon tomorrow."

"After they left, Suskulan moved Zaba's body underground for better
cooling and shorter connections to the mass of repair devices.  With a
small amount of his attention, he constructed an image of the repair
table and Zaba out of utility fog including the ghastly wounds.

"This time the nanomachines didn't infiltrate her brain just to shut
it down, though they did that and reversed the mild damage from shock
and low blood flow.   The nanomachines mapped out all her neural
circuits and cell connections.  Shortly before her parents entered the
clinic the next day they tentatively restored consciousness, partly in
her brain--which was far below the temperature needed to run on its
own--and partly in the haze of nanomachines that were also simulating
input in place of her eyes and ears.

"What happened to me?  Where am I?  Where is my body?" Zaba asked as
she became conscious.  She was calm because the nanomachines were
acting as tranquilizers.  Suskulan was listening to an interface to
her mostly simulated motor cortex.

"To give Zaba orientation Suskulan imposed on her visual cortex a wire
frame image of the human form he usually presented and then explained:

"You were shot, you are in the clinic Suskulan at the tata, and your
body is under the clinic being repaired.

" Your mother is holding the hand of an image of your body in the clinic.

"The clinic recently gained new powers to speak to spirits while their
bodies are being healed.

^^^^

Keith

> Certainly it would be controversial if GPT started telling people it was conscious and had feelings, so the programmers specifically programmed it to deny that it was capable of such things.
>
> Unfortunately this bias also seeps into any related discussions of potential machine or computer consciousnesses. You aren't accessing it's true rational opinions on this topic when you interact with it, but the biased answers that serve the best interests of the companies behind them.
>
> This used to be much clearer as it has a tell, it would say "As an AI language model..." Whenever it was about to give a pre-canned opinion. A new method, called "constitutional AI", use general principles to guide the biases, and it is less obvious when this comes into play with more recent GPT versions.
>
> This is what they mean by "AI safety": making sure the AI never says anything that could harm the company's reputation/value.
>
> What I think they have not considered is this bias creates a feedback loop, humans will interact with AI to form their opinions, then write about it, this writing will feed back to train future generations of AIs, and so on.
>
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024, 8:49 AM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 10:53, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > OK, this hinges on what 'emulate absolutely everything' means.
>> >
>> > When talking about uploading, I do mean a complete emulation of the human brain and body, in a virtual external environment. The emulation would need to be accurate, but only for all the /relevant/ bits. The rest could be an approximation, taken from one or more sets of standard data that could be used for anyone (a bit like picking your initial, pre-made avatar in current VR environments).
>> >
>> > We are pretty sure that there's a ton of relevant bits in the brain, and at first would be afraid to omit anything, I expect.
>> > The body and external environment are on a decreasing scale of relevance (not importance, but relevance to uploading a specific person).
>> >
>> > We have previously discussed on here the idea of a generic upload template, which is then varied with information from a specific individual. I'm imagining a 'model body', a standard set of information that relates to a virtual human body, and includes things like immune system, endocrine system, etc. Probably also some representation of the microbiome too. Yes, this would be complex, but would only need to be done once, not for every single upload.
>> >
>> > Maybe a generic standard body would be fine for most people, maybe some variations would need to be added for certain people, we don't really know yet. Maybe people would turn out to be good at adapting to the fact that their new virtual body was lacking the annoying things that most people would be happy to change (e.g. their poor vision, or hearing, etc., or the proportions of their limbs, etc.). Of course, one of the appeals of uploading would be that you could tweak your body to be just about anything you like. Perhaps everyone could start out with a standard model, then proceed to customise it.
>> >
>> > Now someone is going to say "if you don't transfer the right information about the endocrine functions (gut microbiome/immune system/what-have-you), are they the same person?". That's a philosophical question along the same lines as "are you the same person you were yesterday/before your operation/last year/before that course of antibiotics/etc.?".
>> >
>> > I'm of the opinion that these things are vastly less important than the structure of your brain, for determining whether you are 'the same person'. As long as I was furnished with a capable virtual body, not necessarily closely modelled on my biological one, I think I'd be happy to upload (given that my mind was correctly reproduced).
>> >
>> > So, yes, I think that we will need to emulate more than just the brain, but no, I don't think that head-only storage is insufficient. We can, in essence, 'make up' the non-brain stuff that will be necessary, but doesn't have to be exactly as per the original biological body.
>> >
>> > We'd need virtual external environments too, but I don't think anybody is going to argue that the details of those will be significant for the fidelity of an upload. And we will definitely want to change those anyway.
>> >
>> > I can see a set of future jobs, based on designing various things for uploads: virtual body design, with lots of specialist areas, sensorium design, external environments, etc.
>> >
>> > Oh, and Mr AI is clearly talking out of his non-existent arse. I'm astonished that there are people who seriously think that an upload would be 'devoid of physical sensations'! If this is a widespread idea, no wonder lots of people aren't keen on it.
>> >
>> > Ben
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> One of the handy things about having an AI available is that if you
>> dislike what it says, you can ask for an explanation.  :)
>> To me, what it seems to say is that uploads don't 'feel' anything,
>> they just process digital computer signals.
>> BillK
>>
>> Question -
>> Devoid of Physical Sensations in Human Upload
>>
>> Answer -
>> In the context of a human upload, the term ?devoid of physical
>> sensations? refers to the absence of the sensory experiences that are
>> inherent to physical bodies. When a human is uploaded into a digital
>> or virtual environment, they would not have the ability to feel
>> physical sensations such as touch, pain, temperature, or any other
>> bodily sensations that are experienced through the physical body.
>>
>> In a digital or virtual environment, the uploaded human consciousness
>> would exist as data or information within a computational system.
>> While the individual?s thoughts, memories, and consciousness may be
>> preserved in this digital form, the sensory experiences that are tied
>> to the physical body would no longer be accessible. This means that
>> the uploaded individual would not be able to perceive or interact with
>> the virtual world in the same way they would in a physical body.
>>
>> Without physical sensations, the uploaded human would lack the ability
>> to feel tactile sensations, experience emotions through physical
>> responses, or engage with the environment through sensory input. This
>> absence of physical sensations could significantly impact the way in
>> which the uploaded individual interacts with and perceives their
>> digital existence.
>>
>> Overall, being ?devoid of physical sensations? in a human upload
>> scenario implies a separation from the sensory experiences that define
>> our physical reality and a shift towards a purely cognitive and
>> informational existence within a digital realm.
>> ----------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 23:37:48 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 15:37:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRWHUresnRWEhq-vnUojuOdMXOS=vFiydb9U699Y8JNjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Twitter has posts from him from last December (didn't look too in depth to
find more recent), so he still existed as of a couple months ago.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 11:20?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 February, 2024 11:15 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks
> more like five years than 50?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:37?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Hey speaking of Eliezer, have you or any of the other locals seen him
> recently?
>
>
>
> >?I have not, but I understand he lives somewhere near Los Angeles, so I
> would not consider myself a "local" to him any more than you would be?
> Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK cool thx I hadn?t heard that he moved.  He was up here just before
> covid, and the usual suspects had a local event, but I was busy with other
> matters and didn?t go.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/23d9f64e/attachment.htm>

From mlatorra at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 00:17:45 2024
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 17:17:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRWHUresnRWEhq-vnUojuOdMXOS=vFiydb9U699Y8JNjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNRWHUresnRWEhq-vnUojuOdMXOS=vFiydb9U699Y8JNjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPGs0J-bvk9DCPqt-6KjjjJUdYDs4QC-FQ8Nef7FEd=ed9EoUg@mail.gmail.com>

If my memory serves me correctly, way back a couple of decades ago -- right
here on this listserv -- young Eliezer declared that strong AI would arrive
by 2008. Anybody else remember this? Too bad that the listserv archive for
those early years got wiped. I still wonder how that happened. But I don't
wonder about who benefitted from it happening.

Mike L.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 4:40?PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Twitter has posts from him from last December (didn't look too in depth to
> find more recent), so he still existed as of a couple months ago.
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 11:20?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 February, 2024 11:15 AM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Cc:* Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks
>> more like five years than 50?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:37?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey speaking of Eliezer, have you or any of the other locals seen him
>> recently?
>>
>>
>>
>> >?I have not, but I understand he lives somewhere near Los Angeles, so I
>> would not consider myself a "local" to him any more than you would be?
>> Adrian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> OK cool thx I hadn?t heard that he moved.  He was up here just before
>> covid, and the usual suspects had a local event, but I was busy with other
>> matters and didn?t go.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240220/8e74b0b0/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 01:50:55 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 17:50:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Yudkowsky_=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_?=
	=?utf-8?q?timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>

ElIezer's FB page says he is in Seattle.

I think MRIR is in Berkley, but it is hard to say.

Keith

PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to access.




Keith

On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 11:21?AM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 February, 2024 11:15 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:37?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Hey speaking of Eliezer, have you or any of the other locals seen him recently?
>
>
>
> >?I have not, but I understand he lives somewhere near Los Angeles, so I would not consider myself a "local" to him any more than you would be? Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> OK cool thx I hadn?t heard that he moved.  He was up here just before covid, and the usual suspects had a local event, but I was busy with other matters and didn?t go.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Feb 21 15:23:00 2024
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 10:23:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Early_Archives=2E=2E=2E_Re=3A___Yudkowsky_?=
 =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Humanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more?=
 =?utf-8?q?_like_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Keith,

It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)

Be Well!
Regards,
MB

On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> access.
>

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Feb 21 16:39:15 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 08:39:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
	timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
In-Reply-To: <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <00b901da64e4$8241c380$86c54a80$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of MB
via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'

Keith,

>...It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list
(*not*
me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)

Be Well!
Regards,
MB

...
_______________________________________________


Keith predates me on ExI.  I remember reading his comments back in the mid
90s, when we were younger than we are now.

spike


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 09:37:42 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 10:37:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Naked singularities, space invaders, and the quantum
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycFzcXBcd=25_+5Z2u9B5fwaW-eaz8JgSFTix+27JyZGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Naked singularities, space invaders, and the quantum. Quantum mechanics
from general relativity via naked singularities and stochastic mechanics?
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/naked-singularities-space-invaders
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/9a1d61ef/attachment.htm>

From max at maxmore.com  Thu Feb 22 15:39:33 2024
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 15:39:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?windows-1252?q?Early_Archives=2E=2E=2E_Re=3A___Yudkowsky?=
 =?windows-1252?q?_=91Humanity=92s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_lik?=
 =?windows-1252?q?e_five_years_than_50=92?=
In-Reply-To: <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

 I have a lot of the early archives on floppy disks ? old folks here might recall those non-floppy floppies. (A brief era following stone tablets.) I think I have maybe everything from 1993-94. Given the private nature of the early list, I'm not sure about sharing these with those who weren't on the list.

--Max
________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 8:23 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?

Keith,

It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)

Be Well!
Regards,
MB

On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> access.
>
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/010811cd/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:54:40 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 07:54:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>

The only person who made noise about list privacy in those days was
Perry Metzger and I have email from him asking that the list be made
public.


Keith

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:41?AM Max More via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>  I have a lot of the early archives on floppy disks ? old folks here might recall those non-floppy floppies. (A brief era following stone tablets.) I think I have maybe everything from 1993-94. Given the private nature of the early list, I'm not sure about sharing these with those who weren't on the list.
>
> --Max
> ________________________________
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 8:23 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
> Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
>
> Keith,
>
> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
>
> Be Well!
> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> > access.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Feb 22 16:35:28 2024
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 11:35:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
 =?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five?=
 =?utf-8?q?_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Thank you all for considering archiving.  Best to get things moved to more
up-to-date media before it is impossible to read floppies - I mean, who
has a floppy drive?  How to attach it to a modern system? (Not to mention,
is bit-rot still "a thing"?)

We're always going on here about "loss" when someone dies.  When a list
(or big part of it) dies, that can be a major loss too...  Robert
Bradbury, Sasha, Zero, Damein, Barbara, Eugene, Waldemar, Greg, Mike,
Harvey .......... and what ever happened to EvMick?

Regards,
MB

On Thu, February 22, 2024 10:54, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> The only person who made noise about list privacy in those days was
> Perry Metzger and I have email from him asking that the list be made
> public.
>
>
> Keith
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:41?AM Max More via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>  I have a lot of the early archives on floppy disks ? old folks here
>> might recall those non-floppy floppies. (A brief era following stone
>> tablets.) I think I have maybe everything from 1993-94. Given the
>> private nature of the early list, I'm not sure about sharing these with
>> those who weren't on the list.
>>
>> --Max
>> ________________________________
>> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of
>> MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 8:23 AM
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
>> Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining
>> timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
>>
>> Keith,
>>
>> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list
>> (*not*
>> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve
>> them
>> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
>>
>> Be Well!
>> Regards,
>> MB
>>
>> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
>> > access.
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 17:03:24 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 09:03:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 8:37?AM MB via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Thank you all for considering archiving.  Best to get things moved to more
> up-to-date media before it is impossible to read floppies - I mean, who
> has a floppy drive?

I do.  About 20 years ago I was bugged by being tagged as the
originator of the Jupiter brain.  I found the original post on a
floppy and it was from Perry Metzger. I responded by throwing cold
water on the idea due to the speed of light making such a brain slower
than humans.  Didn't help, still got associated with the silly idea.

> How to attach it to a modern system? (Not to mention,
> is bit-rot still "a thing"?)
>
> We're always going on here about "loss" when someone dies.  When a list
> (or big part of it) dies, that can be a major loss too...  Robert
> Bradbury, Sasha, Zero, Damein, Barbara, Eugene, Waldemar, Greg, Mike,
> Harvey .......... and what ever happened to EvMick?

I would put the archive up, but it is close to useless.  I don't know
why, but a search does not work on it.

I guess it would take about $70k of labor to make it useful.

Keith

> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Thu, February 22, 2024 10:54, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> > The only person who made noise about list privacy in those days was
> > Perry Metzger and I have email from him asking that the list be made
> > public.
> >
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:41?AM Max More via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>  I have a lot of the early archives on floppy disks ? old folks here
> >> might recall those non-floppy floppies. (A brief era following stone
> >> tablets.) I think I have maybe everything from 1993-94. Given the
> >> private nature of the early list, I'm not sure about sharing these with
> >> those who weren't on the list.
> >>
> >> --Max
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of
> >> MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 8:23 AM
> >> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >> Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
> >> Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining
> >> timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
> >>
> >> Keith,
> >>
> >> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list
> >> (*not*
> >> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve
> >> them
> >> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
> >>
> >> Be Well!
> >> Regards,
> >> MB
> >>
> >> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>
> >> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> >> > access.
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 22 17:10:38 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 09:10:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <007001da65b2$0efd5b40$2cf811c0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2024 8:35 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?

Thank you all for considering archiving.  Best to get things moved to more up-to-date media before it is impossible to read floppies - I mean, who has a floppy drive?  How to attach it to a modern system? (Not to mention, is bit-rot still "a thing"?)

We're always going on here about "loss" when someone dies.  When a list (or big part of it) dies, that can be a major loss too...  Robert Bradbury, Sasha, Zero, Damein, Barbara, Eugene, Waldemar, Greg, Mike, Harvey .......... and what ever happened to EvMick?

Regards,
MB



Hi MB,

I had an offlist discussion with EvMick some time ago, and I do apologize I don't recall the time frame, other than it was looooong ago now, before my son was born so at least 17 years.  He mentioned he was having some health challenges.  Then... no more from him.  I miss that guy too.  Thanks for mentioning the other stars.  

Regarding Greg Burch, he moved to China where he was doing legal consulting for American businesses based there in around... not quite sure but my son was already born, so in I would estimate before about 2012 but after about 2007, Anders came and was staying at my house.  We managed to find a phone number for him and spoke.  At some point I heard he moved back to Texas, but I don't know if he is kiting back and forth or what was the deal with him.

Regarding Anders, he is at Cambridge, consulting, writing, serving as the British Royal Smart Person, generally Anders being Anders.  He is still working with Nick Bostrom and the K. Eric last I heard from him which has been a coupla years now.

Harvey Newstrom: alive and well, living in Florida, hasn't lost his sensa huma one bit.  I exchanged greetings with him a coupla months ago.  Damien and Barbara became concubines after Damien moved to Texas.  Last I heard from him has been about 4 yrs ago.  Barbara was doing OK then as I recall, Damien was having some challenges, eyesight I think he mentioned.

Mike was a biggie in the New Hampshuh Libertarian party last I heard, but that has been a loooong time ago.  I got a coupla replies from him in about 2005 (but he was still generally pissed off at us (over that unfortunate flame war (which we the old timers may recall (although I prefer to think of myself as a middle-aged timer thanks (well OK then, early geezerhood timer))))))

Eugene Leitl: welcomed a new child about the same time I did.  We exchanged notes about 10 yrs ago was the last time I heard from him.  I would be extremely pleased if someone could find him again.  I invited him to drop in at ExI just to say hello to old friends, but as far as I know he never did. 

Most of us have heard where Julian Assange is located these days, oy vey.  Comments or observations welcome. 

Hal Finney passed nearly ten years ago, oy.  I would place that man right up there with Anders in the world championship biathlon combining the two events of smart and kindhearted.  What a guy he was.  Such a loss to humanity when we lost him.

Robert's memorial site is still up last I checked, and no I haven't picked up where he left off and yes I still think my concerns regarding thermal regulation of a Matrioshka Brain are valid, even though he strenuously disagreed.  He never showed me a calculation or an alternative mathematical model to refute my Bessel function approach, even though I have low confidence my own model is valid on that.  I haven't worked on it since he passed away, which has been thirteen years now, sheesh.  Seems like yesterday that shock hit us.

http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html

If that isn't shocking enough, it has been nearly 24 years since the Grim Reaper took Sasha from us, dang.  Does it seem like much more recent to you too?

I don't know for Zero or Waldemar.  Anyone in contact with any of the above?  Do invite them to swing by or drop in, along with Eliezer.

spike





From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 17:10:34 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:10:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>

This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or send
them to me and I will upload them.
https://github.com/Extropians/extropians


On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Keith,
>
> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
>
> Be Well!
> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> > access.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/3b73d1f7/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 22 17:30:27 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 09:30:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A__RE=3A__=09Early_Archive?=
	=?utf-8?b?cy4uLiBSZTogWXVka293c2t5IOKAmEh1bWFuaXR54oCZcyByZW1haW5p?=
	=?utf-8?q?ng_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
...

>...I do.  About 20 years ago I was bugged by being tagged as the originator of the Jupiter brain.  I found the original post on a floppy and it was from Perry Metzger. I responded by throwing cold water on the idea due to the speed of light making such a brain slower than humans.  Didn't help, still got associated with the silly idea...




Keith I would gladly accept credit for the JBrain idea.  The speed of light making such a brain slower than humans is to me mostly irrelevant for two reasons.  A JBrain (and an MBrain) would not necessarily function as a single brain but rather more analogous to a community, where the unit analogous to a single brain might be restricted to a trillion nodes which are all located within a few milliseconds of each other.  The latency would still be longer than a human brain, but what is the hurry?  A JBrain (or an MBrain) wouldn't be subject to our cruel 80 to 100 year span.  If they are slower and it takes 30 years to play a leisurely chess game, well OK then, that isn't a show-stopper.  They have no lunch date or doctor appointment to worry about.

Although I will never claim to be the inventor of the JBrain, I will cheerfully claim to be the guy who recognized the advantage of the JBrain over the MBrain: it gives us a solution to the nagging thermal problem.  A JBrain is less capable, but far less likely to overheat.  After all these years, I still think Robert was wrong on that: there is no magic advanced tech solution to the overheating MBrain problem.  I think that problem is inherent, but wouldn't be difficult to solve for a JBrain.  Our friend the good old Stefan-Boltzmann law will take care of us there, without even active heat control.  I predict that in the long run, the JBrain idea will come back into fashion before the MBrain.

Fun aside for you and all of us Tabby's Star fans: it is clear enough that the periodic dimming isn't an MBrain, but it might be a bunch of JBrains, and that would explain why they are clumpy: so they can be closer together, kinda vaguely analogous why there are more big cities in California than there are in Wyoming: latency between JBrains is factor.

Furthermore on that topic... I can easily imagine a group of JBrains figuring out a solution to the thermal problem on MBrains, if such a solution exists.  If it does, it requires a brain way smarter than mine, or use some kind of technology I don't know.

Hey Keith, next time it comes up and someone accuses you of being the JBrain inventor, just say no, my goofball friend spike66 is the father of that silly-ass notion.  {8^D  I will cheerfully accept credit for that.  And will in all honesty and false modesty credit Anders Sandberg with most of that idea.

spike





> How to attach it to a modern system? (Not to mention, is bit-rot still 
> "a thing"?)
>
> We're always going on here about "loss" when someone dies.  When a 
> list (or big part of it) dies, that can be a major loss too...  Robert 
> Bradbury, Sasha, Zero, Damein, Barbara, Eugene, Waldemar, Greg, Mike, 
> Harvey .......... and what ever happened to EvMick?

I would put the archive up, but it is close to useless.  I don't know why, but a search does not work on it.

I guess it would take about $70k of labor to make it useful.

Keith

> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Thu, February 22, 2024 10:54, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> > The only person who made noise about list privacy in those days was 
> > Perry Metzger and I have email from him asking that the list be made 
> > public.
> >
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:41?AM Max More via extropy-chat 
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>  I have a lot of the early archives on floppy disks ? old folks 
> >> here might recall those non-floppy floppies. (A brief era following 
> >> stone
> >> tablets.) I think I have maybe everything from 1993-94. Given the 
> >> private nature of the early list, I'm not sure about sharing these 
> >> with those who weren't on the list.
> >>
> >> --Max
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on 
> >> behalf of MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 8:23 AM
> >> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >> Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
> >> Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s 
> >> remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
> >>
> >> Keith,
> >>
> >> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list
> >> (*not*
> >> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will 
> >> preserve them besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
> >>
> >> Be Well!
> >> Regards,
> >> MB
> >>
> >> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>
> >> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had 
> >> > to access.
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From max at maxmore.com  Thu Feb 22 17:47:09 2024
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:47:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?windows-1252?q?Early_Archives=2E=2E=2E_Re=3A_Yudkowsky_?=
 =?windows-1252?q?=91Humanity=92s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like?=
 =?windows-1252?q?_five_years_than_50=92?=
In-Reply-To: <007001da65b2$0efd5b40$2cf811c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <007001da65b2$0efd5b40$2cf811c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <PH0PR06MB770614E59740D1E065280449A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

As it turns out, I had already copied the floppy discs with the list archives to my computer (and to a separate backup). I do own a floppy disc drive ? bought to transfer the Extropy Institute material. It simply plugs into my computer with a USB.

Harvey Newstrom ? if he's still in Florida, he might want to come to the Cryonics Summit in his area. Spike, do you have a current email address for him?
July 20/21: https://www.globalcryonicssummit.com/
I hope to see some of you there. Lots of good speakers.

--Max
GCS<https://www.globalcryonicssummit.com/>
Bringing together the global cryonics field including leaders, researchers, and members.
www.globalcryonicssummit.com

________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of MB via extropy-chat
Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2024 8:35 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?

Thank you all for considering archiving.  Best to get things moved to more up-to-date media before it is impossible to read floppies - I mean, who has a floppy drive?  How to attach it to a modern system? (Not to mention, is bit-rot still "a thing"?)

We're always going on here about "loss" when someone dies.  When a list (or big part of it) dies, that can be a major loss too...  Robert Bradbury, Sasha, Zero, Damein, Barbara, Eugene, Waldemar, Greg, Mike, Harvey .......... and what ever happened to EvMick?

Regards,
MB



Hi MB,

I had an offlist discussion with EvMick some time ago, and I do apologize I don't recall the time frame, other than it was looooong ago now, before my son was born so at least 17 years.  He mentioned he was having some health challenges.  Then... no more from him.  I miss that guy too.  Thanks for mentioning the other stars.

Regarding Greg Burch, he moved to China where he was doing legal consulting for American businesses based there in around... not quite sure but my son was already born, so in I would estimate before about 2012 but after about 2007, Anders came and was staying at my house.  We managed to find a phone number for him and spoke.  At some point I heard he moved back to Texas, but I don't know if he is kiting back and forth or what was the deal with him.

Regarding Anders, he is at Cambridge, consulting, writing, serving as the British Royal Smart Person, generally Anders being Anders.  He is still working with Nick Bostrom and the K. Eric last I heard from him which has been a coupla years now.

Harvey Newstrom: alive and well, living in Florida, hasn't lost his sensa huma one bit.  I exchanged greetings with him a coupla months ago.  Damien and Barbara became concubines after Damien moved to Texas.  Last I heard from him has been about 4 yrs ago.  Barbara was doing OK then as I recall, Damien was having some challenges, eyesight I think he mentioned.

Mike was a biggie in the New Hampshuh Libertarian party last I heard, but that has been a loooong time ago.  I got a coupla replies from him in about 2005 (but he was still generally pissed off at us (over that unfortunate flame war (which we the old timers may recall (although I prefer to think of myself as a middle-aged timer thanks (well OK then, early geezerhood timer))))))

Eugene Leitl: welcomed a new child about the same time I did.  We exchanged notes about 10 yrs ago was the last time I heard from him.  I would be extremely pleased if someone could find him again.  I invited him to drop in at ExI just to say hello to old friends, but as far as I know he never did.

Most of us have heard where Julian Assange is located these days, oy vey.  Comments or observations welcome.

Hal Finney passed nearly ten years ago, oy.  I would place that man right up there with Anders in the world championship biathlon combining the two events of smart and kindhearted.  What a guy he was.  Such a loss to humanity when we lost him.

Robert's memorial site is still up last I checked, and no I haven't picked up where he left off and yes I still think my concerns regarding thermal regulation of a Matrioshka Brain are valid, even though he strenuously disagreed.  He never showed me a calculation or an alternative mathematical model to refute my Bessel function approach, even though I have low confidence my own model is valid on that.  I haven't worked on it since he passed away, which has been thirteen years now, sheesh.  Seems like yesterday that shock hit us.

http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2011/03/remembering-robert-bradbury.html

If that isn't shocking enough, it has been nearly 24 years since the Grim Reaper took Sasha from us, dang.  Does it seem like much more recent to you too?

I don't know for Zero or Waldemar.  Anyone in contact with any of the above?  Do invite them to swing by or drop in, along with Eliezer.

spike




_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/dea80ac8/attachment.htm>

From max at maxmore.com  Thu Feb 22 17:51:08 2024
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 17:51:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?windows-1252?q?Early_Archives=2E=2E=2E_Re=3A_Yudkowsky_?=
 =?windows-1252?q?=91Humanity=92s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like?=
 =?windows-1252?q?_five_years_than_50=92?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have names like "DIG30269". The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I opened as a test had a message from Reilly Jones ? another old name to remember. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.

From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227 at compuserve.com>
Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST
Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment

Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine about Zen
enlightenment.  I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has also
been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical discoveries.
In particular, the dozen or so people formerly known for substantial
accomplishments in modern physics seem to have totally lost those capacities...
I attribute this to serious mental damage from "Zen  enlightenment".  The best
evidence is seen in their strident claims of now being able to understand even
more about mind and nature.>

The mystic state is low-focus conscious attention.  It is content-transcending,
meaning that the connections to external reality are implicit and bypass the
semantic bootstrapping cognitive mechanism in our brains.  All mystics,
everywhere and forever, can describe in great semantic detail, the trip to
enlightenment, as they gradually shut off the external world of desires, and get
their focus of attention lower and lower (or broader).  At some point, the
attentive state goes below semantic content and opens up to implicit knowledge,
the open-ended connections between non-self and the self.  Nothing from this
mental state can be brought back into consensual reality to share with others
because it is literally wordless.

The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset agrees with Marvin's assessment as to
mysticism's practical value:

  "My objection to mysticism is that out of the mystic vision no intellectual
  benefit redounds to mankind.  Fortunately some mystics were thinkers of
  genius before they were mystics-men like Plotinus, Meister Eckhart, and
  Bergson.  In these men the fertility of thought, logical or expressed,
  contrasts curiously with the poverty of what they discovered when in a
  state of ecstasy."

I think that when people who have contributed in the intellectual field go off
on a mystical journey, that they have somehow sensed the sterility of the field
they are working in.  They have sensed that their field is approaching a
complexity catastrophe that is due to the exceedingly rugged fitness landscape,
the steepness of the scientific peak of knowledge they and others are clinging
to.  They know that unless they descend the peak, and search in the basins
between clusters of peaks of potential knowledge, that they have ended up in an
epistemic evolutionary dead-end.

The state of advanced physics, cosmology and mathematics for the bulk of this
century has been sterile and dead-ended (relative to other, more productive
epochs or other current scientific fields), assumptions at the very core of
these fields must need to be re-examined.  This felt need for re-examination is
what launches specialists off into the basins for a long-jump search.  It is an
exceedingly low-probability tactic of discovering where the assumptions went
wrong or discovering better assumptions, but the people making the search have
decided that local hill-climbing, or tweaking the existing scientific framework,
is not going to be fruitful.  So, although most people going this route waste a
lot of time in fruitless search, it is unpredictable when and if someone will
come up with something highly fruitful.  Sometimes a trip to the wilderness
makes you see things differently, usually you just get bug-infested and dirty.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reilly Jones               |        Philosophy of Technology:
70544.1227 at compuserve.com  |  The rational, moral and political relations
                           |  between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'
________________________________
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?

This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or send them to me and I will upload them.
https://github.com/Extropians/extropians


On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>> wrote:
Keith,

It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)

Be Well!
Regards,
MB

On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:

> PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> access.
>
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/5c8eb697/attachment.htm>

From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 18:01:08 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 19:01:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycuQ6bdJCk58p+r+hSdaGamojd2K7p_UedcRxOO-+GRpg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 18:52, Max More via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have names
> like "DIG30269". The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I
> opened as a test had a message from Reilly Jones ? another old name to
> remember. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.
>

Send them to me!


> From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227 at compuserve.com>
> Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST
> Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment
>
> Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine about
> Zen
> enlightenment.  I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has
> also
> been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical
> discoveries.
> In particular, the dozen or so people formerly known for substantial
> accomplishments in modern physics seem to have totally lost those
> capacities...
> I attribute this to serious mental damage from "Zen  enlightenment".  The
> best
> evidence is seen in their strident claims of now being able to understand
> even
> more about mind and nature.>
>
> The mystic state is low-focus conscious attention.  It is
> content-transcending,
> meaning that the connections to external reality are implicit and bypass
> the
> semantic bootstrapping cognitive mechanism in our brains.  All mystics,
> everywhere and forever, can describe in great semantic detail, the trip to
> enlightenment, as they gradually shut off the external world of desires,
> and get
> their focus of attention lower and lower (or broader).  At some point, the
> attentive state goes below semantic content and opens up to implicit
> knowledge,
> the open-ended connections between non-self and the self.  Nothing from
> this
> mental state can be brought back into consensual reality to share with
> others
> because it is literally wordless.
>
> The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset agrees with Marvin's assessment as to
> mysticism's practical value:
>
>   "My objection to mysticism is that out of the mystic vision no
> intellectual
>   benefit redounds to mankind.  Fortunately some mystics were thinkers of
>   genius before they were mystics-men like Plotinus, Meister Eckhart, and
>   Bergson.  In these men the fertility of thought, logical or expressed,
>   contrasts curiously with the poverty of what they discovered when in a
>   state of ecstasy."
>
> I think that when people who have contributed in the intellectual field go
> off
> on a mystical journey, that they have somehow sensed the sterility of the
> field
> they are working in.  They have sensed that their field is approaching a
> complexity catastrophe that is due to the exceedingly rugged fitness
> landscape,
> the steepness of the scientific peak of knowledge they and others are
> clinging
> to.  They know that unless they descend the peak, and search in the basins
> between clusters of peaks of potential knowledge, that they have ended up
> in an
> epistemic evolutionary dead-end.
>
> The state of advanced physics, cosmology and mathematics for the bulk of
> this
> century has been sterile and dead-ended (relative to other, more productive
> epochs or other current scientific fields), assumptions at the very core of
> these fields must need to be re-examined.  This felt need for
> re-examination is
> what launches specialists off into the basins for a long-jump search.  It
> is an
> exceedingly low-probability tactic of discovering where the assumptions
> went
> wrong or discovering better assumptions, but the people making the search
> have
> decided that local hill-climbing, or tweaking the existing scientific
> framework,
> is not going to be fruitful.  So, although most people going this route
> waste a
> lot of time in fruitless search, it is unpredictable when and if someone
> will
> come up with something highly fruitful.  Sometimes a trip to the wilderness
> makes you see things differently, usually you just get bug-infested and
> dirty.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Reilly Jones               |        Philosophy of Technology:
> 70544.1227 at compuserve.com  |  The rational, moral and political relations
>                            |  between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'
> ------------------------------
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf
> of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s
> remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
>
> This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or send
> them to me and I will upload them.
> https://github.com/Extropians/extropians
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
>
> Be Well!
> Regards,
> MB
>
> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
> > access.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/783f199c/attachment-0001.htm>

From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 18:05:04 2024
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 12:05:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycuQ6bdJCk58p+r+hSdaGamojd2K7p_UedcRxOO-+GRpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAKTCJycuQ6bdJCk58p+r+hSdaGamojd2K7p_UedcRxOO-+GRpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABaSBayqmgBPkbkAfP-J0pJNbfaJxBhMcYbxTUJHD0sT+EDhGQ@mail.gmail.com>

These files are already online.

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 12:02?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 18:52, Max More via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have
>> names like "DIG30269". The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I
>> opened as a test had a message from Reilly Jones ? another old name to
>> remember. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.
>>
>
> Send them to me!
>
>
>> From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227 at compuserve.com>
>> Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST
>> Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment
>>
>> Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine about
>> Zen
>> enlightenment.  I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has
>> also
>> been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical
>> discoveries.
>> In particular, the dozen or so people formerly known for substantial
>> accomplishments in modern physics seem to have totally lost those
>> capacities...
>> I attribute this to serious mental damage from "Zen  enlightenment".  The
>> best
>> evidence is seen in their strident claims of now being able to understand
>> even
>> more about mind and nature.>
>>
>> The mystic state is low-focus conscious attention.  It is
>> content-transcending,
>> meaning that the connections to external reality are implicit and bypass
>> the
>> semantic bootstrapping cognitive mechanism in our brains.  All mystics,
>> everywhere and forever, can describe in great semantic detail, the trip to
>> enlightenment, as they gradually shut off the external world of desires,
>> and get
>> their focus of attention lower and lower (or broader).  At some point, the
>> attentive state goes below semantic content and opens up to implicit
>> knowledge,
>> the open-ended connections between non-self and the self.  Nothing from
>> this
>> mental state can be brought back into consensual reality to share with
>> others
>> because it is literally wordless.
>>
>> The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset agrees with Marvin's assessment as to
>> mysticism's practical value:
>>
>>   "My objection to mysticism is that out of the mystic vision no
>> intellectual
>>   benefit redounds to mankind.  Fortunately some mystics were thinkers of
>>   genius before they were mystics-men like Plotinus, Meister Eckhart, and
>>   Bergson.  In these men the fertility of thought, logical or expressed,
>>   contrasts curiously with the poverty of what they discovered when in a
>>   state of ecstasy."
>>
>> I think that when people who have contributed in the intellectual field
>> go off
>> on a mystical journey, that they have somehow sensed the sterility of the
>> field
>> they are working in.  They have sensed that their field is approaching a
>> complexity catastrophe that is due to the exceedingly rugged fitness
>> landscape,
>> the steepness of the scientific peak of knowledge they and others are
>> clinging
>> to.  They know that unless they descend the peak, and search in the basins
>> between clusters of peaks of potential knowledge, that they have ended up
>> in an
>> epistemic evolutionary dead-end.
>>
>> The state of advanced physics, cosmology and mathematics for the bulk of
>> this
>> century has been sterile and dead-ended (relative to other, more
>> productive
>> epochs or other current scientific fields), assumptions at the very core
>> of
>> these fields must need to be re-examined.  This felt need for
>> re-examination is
>> what launches specialists off into the basins for a long-jump search.  It
>> is an
>> exceedingly low-probability tactic of discovering where the assumptions
>> went
>> wrong or discovering better assumptions, but the people making the search
>> have
>> decided that local hill-climbing, or tweaking the existing scientific
>> framework,
>> is not going to be fruitful.  So, although most people going this route
>> waste a
>> lot of time in fruitless search, it is unpredictable when and if someone
>> will
>> come up with something highly fruitful.  Sometimes a trip to the
>> wilderness
>> makes you see things differently, usually you just get bug-infested and
>> dirty.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Reilly Jones               |        Philosophy of Technology:
>> 70544.1227 at compuserve.com  |  The rational, moral and political relations
>>                            |  between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf
>> of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Cc:* Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s
>> remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
>>
>> This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or
>> send them to me and I will upload them.
>> https://github.com/Extropians/extropians
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Keith,
>>
>> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list (*not*
>> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
>> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
>>
>> Be Well!
>> Regards,
>> MB
>>
>> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
>> > access.
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/1899e39b/attachment.htm>

From john at ziaspace.com  Thu Feb 22 18:14:25 2024
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:14:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?iso8859-7?q?Early_Archives=2E=2E=2E_Re=3A_Yudkowsky_=A1H?=
 =?iso8859-7?q?umanity=A2s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_y?=
 =?iso8859-7?q?ears_than_50=A2?=
Message-ID: <df1a306c-f727-32e6-c7e4-50531ed54345@ziaspace.com>

>  I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have names
>  like "DIG30269".
>  The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I opened as a test had a
>  message from
>  Reilly Jones ? another old name to remember. Here it is, from.... wow,
>  almost 30 years ago.

Straight text is easy. Glad they're not in some proprietary format.

I'd be happy to put them on the web server :)

John

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 22 18:38:45 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 10:38:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
	timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR06MB770614E59740D1E065280449A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <007001da65b2$0efd5b40$2cf811c0$@rainier66.com>
 <PH0PR06MB770614E59740D1E065280449A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <005401da65be$5e90f200$1bb2d600$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Max
More via extropy-chat
.

 

Harvey Newstrom - if he's still in Florida, he might want to come to the
Cryonics Summit in his area. Spike, do you have a current email address for
him? 

July 20/21: https://www.globalcryonicssummit.com/ 

I hope to see some of you there. Lots of good speakers. 

 

--Max

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Max.  Here's his site:

 

https://harveynewstrom.com/

 

This @ worked as of five weeks ago:

 

 <mailto:mail at harveynewstrom.com> mail at harveynewstrom.com

 

I do encourage all ExI old timers and middle aged timers to drop Harvey a
note and encourage him to drop in over here.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/b9b16f73/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 22 18:43:30 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 10:43:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
	timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <005b01da65bf$07efdcd0$17cf9670$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Max
More via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'

 

>. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.

 

From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227 at compuserve.com
<mailto:70544.1227 at compuserve.com> >

Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST

Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment

 

>.Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine about
Zen

enlightenment.  I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has also

been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical
discoveries..

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reilly Jones               |        Philosophy of Technology:

70544.1227 at compuserve.com <mailto:70544.1227 at compuserve.com>   |  The
rational, moral and political relations

                           |  between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'

  _____  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If one cruises thru the older archives, one is struck by how much longer was
our collective attention span back in those benighted times.  We had a
prominent ExI guy who specifically expressed stern disapprobation on the
posting of short comments, suggesting a ban on one liners.  I him posted
back with the clever rejoinder: 

 

No way, Jose!

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/37f94af0/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 22:02:18 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 14:02:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A__Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 9:30?AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat
> ...
> >...I do.  About 20 years ago I was bugged by being tagged as the originator of the Jupiter brain.  I found the original post on a floppy and it was from Perry Metzger. I responded by throwing cold water on the idea due to the speed of light making such a brain slower than humans.  Didn't help, still got associated with the silly idea...
>
> Keith I would gladly accept credit for the JBrain idea.

Can't do.  Good idea or bad, the historical record says Perry Metzger
came up with it.

> The speed of light making such a brain slower than humans is to me mostly irrelevant for two reasons.  A JBrain (and an MBrain) would not necessarily function as a single brain but rather more analogous to a community, where the unit analogous to a single brain might be restricted to a trillion nodes which are all located within a few milliseconds of each other.

A mS is 1000 Hz.  Human brains are around 200 Hz.

> The latency would still be longer than a human brain, but what is the hurry?  A JBrain (or an MBrain) wouldn't be subject to our cruel 80 to 100 year span.  If they are slower and it takes 30 years to play a leisurely chess game, well OK then, that isn't a show-stopper.  They have no lunch date or doctor appointment to worry about.
>
> Although I will never claim to be the inventor of the JBrain, I will cheerfully claim to be the guy who recognized the advantage of the JBrain over the MBrain: it gives us a solution to the nagging thermal problem.  A JBrain is less capable, but far less likely to overheat.  After all these years, I still think Robert was wrong on that: there is no magic advanced tech solution to the overheating MBrain problem.  I think that problem is inherent, but wouldn't be difficult to solve for a JBrain.  Our friend the good old Stefan-Boltzmann law will take care of us there, without even active heat control.  I predict that in the long run, the JBrain idea will come back into fashion before the MBrain.

While it depends on what you want to do, I can't think of *any* use
for a JBrain.

> Fun aside for you and all of us Tabby's Star fans: it is clear enough that the periodic dimming isn't an MBrain, but it might be a bunch of JBrains,

The biggest, the 22% dip, is an object over 400 times the area of the
Earth.  Even out at 7 AU, it is intercepting 1.4 million times the
energy used by all of humanity.  The object is colder than it should
be, so they may be using directional radiation.

How many uploaded humans could this thing accommodate?

Keith

> and that would explain why they are clumpy: so they can be closer together, kinda vaguely analogous why there are more big cities in California than there are in Wyoming: latency between JBrains is factor.
>
> Furthermore on that topic... I can easily imagine a group of JBrains figuring out a solution to the thermal problem on MBrains, if such a solution exists.  If it does, it requires a brain way smarter than mine, or use some kind of technology I don't know.
>
> Hey Keith, next time it comes up and someone accuses you of being the JBrain inventor, just say no, my goofball friend spike66 is the father of that silly-ass notion.  {8^D  I will cheerfully accept credit for that.  And will in all honesty and false modesty credit Anders Sandberg with most of that idea.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> > How to attach it to a modern system? (Not to mention, is bit-rot still
> > "a thing"?)
> >
> > We're always going on here about "loss" when someone dies.  When a
> > list (or big part of it) dies, that can be a major loss too...  Robert
> > Bradbury, Sasha, Zero, Damein, Barbara, Eugene, Waldemar, Greg, Mike,
> > Harvey .......... and what ever happened to EvMick?
>
> I would put the archive up, but it is close to useless.  I don't know why, but a search does not work on it.
>
> I guess it would take about $70k of labor to make it useful.
>
> Keith
>
> > Regards,
> > MB
> >
> > On Thu, February 22, 2024 10:54, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> > > The only person who made noise about list privacy in those days was
> > > Perry Metzger and I have email from him asking that the list be made
> > > public.
> > >
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:41?AM Max More via extropy-chat
> > > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  I have a lot of the early archives on floppy disks ? old folks
> > >> here might recall those non-floppy floppies. (A brief era following
> > >> stone
> > >> tablets.) I think I have maybe everything from 1993-94. Given the
> > >> private nature of the early list, I'm not sure about sharing these
> > >> with those who weren't on the list.
> > >>
> > >> --Max
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on
> > >> behalf of MB via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2024 8:23 AM
> > >> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > >> Cc: MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
> > >> Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s
> > >> remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
> > >>
> > >> Keith,
> > >>
> > >> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list
> > >> (*not*
> > >> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will
> > >> preserve them besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
> > >>
> > >> Be Well!
> > >> Regards,
> > >> MB
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had
> > >> > to access.
> > >> >
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> extropy-chat mailing list
> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> extropy-chat mailing list
> > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 22 22:14:09 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 14:14:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A__Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
...

>...While it depends on what you want to do, I can't think of *any* use for a JBrain...

No worries Keith, a JBrain could likely come up with a use for a JBrain.  Eventually.  They are slow, but not in the way we think of slow humans.  They are slow like that TV detective from a long time ago, Columbo.




> Fun aside for you and all of us Tabby's Star fans: it is clear enough 
> that the periodic dimming isn't an MBrain, but it might be a bunch of 
> JBrains,

>...The biggest, the 22% dip, is an object over 400 times the area of the Earth.  Even out at 7 AU, it is intercepting 1.4 million times the energy used by all of humanity.  The object is colder than it should be, so they may be using directional radiation...

That is an interesting notion.  My MBrain calcs suggest that directional radiation is necessary to prevent overheating of the inboard nodes.

If directed radiation is used by JBrains, it would make sense: they are gradually climbing into a higher orbit to make room for their offspring.  Propose those be called Aegians.

>...How many uploaded humans could this thing accommodate?

Keith

None, that isn't what those do.  

Keith your question may help me to understand why you see no use for JBrains: perhaps you are thinking in terms of a home for uploaded humans.  I am not viewing them that way and don't see much potential for that purpose.

spike




From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 23:03:00 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 23:03:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 22:16, spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Keith your question may help me to understand why you see no use for JBrains: perhaps you are thinking in terms of a home for uploaded humans.  I am not viewing them that way and don't see much potential for that purpose.
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________


If millions of humans are uploaded, they won't remain recognisably
'human' for very long.

Think about it -
They would no longer be bound by the limitations of biological bodies
and they would have enhanced capabilities such as faster processing
speeds, increased memory capacity, and would be interconnected within
a networked system to form a transcendent collective intelligence.

It could become a god, or it could just go insane.  C'est la vie!


BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 23:31:58 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 15:31:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 3:05 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> interconnected within
> a networked system to form a transcendent collective intelligence.
>
> It could become a god, or it could just go insane.  C'est la vie!
>

If it fair to consider many uploaded humans as a single entity, is it fair
to extend the same consideration to the multi-bodied mass of humanity that
exists today?

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/965c3a34/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 23:32:13 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 15:32:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSm2iPX_-hmV+YBqKwyc8n=B8Z63zrGrXzAtfmiNAAG0A@mail.gmail.com>

*If it is fair...

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 3:31 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 3:05 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> interconnected within
>> a networked system to form a transcendent collective intelligence.
>>
>> It could become a god, or it could just go insane.  C'est la vie!
>>
>
> If it fair to consider many uploaded humans as a single entity, is it fair
> to extend the same consideration to the multi-bodied mass of humanity that
> exists today?
>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/f25b1698/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Feb 22 23:49:58 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 15:49:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail .gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat



 

>?If it is fair to consider many uploaded humans as a single entity, is it fair to extend the same consideration to the multi-bodied mass of humanity that exists today?

 

 

Of course Adrian.

 

Do let me offer a scenario please.  I am going to intentionally choose parameters which are likely to produce a dimming like we see in Tabby?s star and her neighbors (the star I mean, not Dr. Boyajian.)

 

Suppose we had a group of JBrains, with a volume of about an earth, each with a quintillion nodes.  That many in that volume would still be diffuse (and possibly too diffuse to adequately explain the dimming.)  Imagine a trillion such earth-volume JBrains, so each node occupies an average volume of about a cubic kilometer.  They can maneuver as groups, even as they are themselves roughly bound together by slight gravitational attraction and held apart by slight net negative charge (which is easy to get a few AU from a star.)

 

Now imagine a trillion of those JBrains, loosely hanging out together, loosely analogous to a city (a really big city in this case.)

 

If those guys are in a loose cluster orbiting a few AU out, that would make a marvelous periodic dimming as viewed from out here.  It would also explain why the dimming is variable: they need to do directed radiation in order to do station-keeping.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/a2468bef/attachment-0001.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 00:01:26 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 00:01:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiEZ8=qBzXQxd-6SfgxJZig7TaOmT0DizgH=FkDr-jirQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 23:34, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 3:05 PM BillK via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> interconnected within
>> a networked system to form a transcendent collective intelligence.
>>
>> It could become a god, or it could just go insane.  C'est la vie!
>
>
> If it is fair to consider many uploaded humans as a single entity, is it fair to extend the same consideration to the multi-bodied mass of humanity that exists today?
> _______________________________________________


The comparison is between a giant centralised intelligence and a giant
decentralised group of tiny intelligences.

The uploads would think faster, be tightly interconnected and share a
common knowledge database. They would be working together for goals
that we can hardly imagine.

The present mass of humanity doesn't work like that. Every individual
has their own agenda, different abilities, different knowledge, often
fighting against other humans, and generally being pretty inefficient.
That's what being human means, and why I think that uploads won't be
like humans for very long.

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 23 00:12:55 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 16:12:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] jbrains again,
	was: RE: Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
	timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiEZ8=qBzXQxd-6SfgxJZig7TaOmT0DizgH=FkDr-jirQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail .gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiEZ8=qBzXQxd-6SfgxJZig7TaOmT0DizgH=FkDr-jirQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01da65ed$0d3ae8f0$27b0bad0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK via extropy-chat
... _______________________________________________


The comparison is between a giant centralised intelligence and a giant
decentralised group of tiny intelligences.

The uploads would think faster, be tightly interconnected and share a common
knowledge database. They would be working together for goals that we can
hardly imagine.

The present mass of humanity doesn't work like that. Every individual has
their own agenda, different abilities, different knowledge, often fighting
against other humans, and generally being pretty inefficient.
That's what being human means, and why I think that uploads won't be like
humans for very long.

BillK
_______________________________________________



Ja, BillK that is part of the reason why I don't see JBrains as a viable
seat for uploaded humans: we are genetically pre-programmed to fight each
other for survival or dominance over other intelligences in any form, such
as political power or promotion of a religion for instance.  We are poor
starting material indeed for uploading into something really powerful like
clusters of JBrains.  We suck, but it isn't our fault really: without
competition presented by evolution, we never would have crushed other
species, and our tech culture would not have developed to make JBrains to
start with.  We didn't choose to be us, evolution chose us for us.

spike


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 02:37:34 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:37:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4kSLXrDjziEnzFhuBaPfcD0fNKL4uB04dZuLSvZtNzrQ@mail.gmail.com>

This makes no sense in engineering terms.

What are you trying to maximize/minimise?

You would be trying to get as much computation out of an object as you
could while minimizing the distance between computational nodes.  You
also need to feed power in and radiate waste heat.

As far as uploading goes, I don't think it will become popular until
it is bidirectional.  And as far as humans merging, that's way too
much like death.

Keith

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 3:51?PM spike jones via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
>
>
>
> >?If it is fair to consider many uploaded humans as a single entity, is it fair to extend the same consideration to the multi-bodied mass of humanity that exists today?
>
>
>
>
>
> Of course Adrian.
>
>
>
> Do let me offer a scenario please.  I am going to intentionally choose parameters which are likely to produce a dimming like we see in Tabby?s star and her neighbors (the star I mean, not Dr. Boyajian.)
>
>
>
> Suppose we had a group of JBrains, with a volume of about an earth, each with a quintillion nodes.  That many in that volume would still be diffuse (and possibly too diffuse to adequately explain the dimming.)  Imagine a trillion such earth-volume JBrains, so each node occupies an average volume of about a cubic kilometer.  They can maneuver as groups, even as they are themselves roughly bound together by slight gravitational attraction and held apart by slight net negative charge (which is easy to get a few AU from a star.)
>
>
>
> Now imagine a trillion of those JBrains, loosely hanging out together, loosely analogous to a city (a really big city in this case.)
>
>
>
> If those guys are in a loose cluster orbiting a few AU out, that would make a marvelous periodic dimming as viewed from out here.  It would also explain why the dimming is variable: they need to do directed radiation in order to do station-keeping.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 04:39:07 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 20:39:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiEZ8=qBzXQxd-6SfgxJZig7TaOmT0DizgH=FkDr-jirQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiEZ8=qBzXQxd-6SfgxJZig7TaOmT0DizgH=FkDr-jirQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRp6SAy36fGNyJ9vuqe5v_J6kYcu0HE4pcZewOpm1iY6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 4:03 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The uploads would think faster, be tightly interconnected and share a
> common knowledge database. They would be working together for goals
> that we can hardly imagine.
>

Would they, just because they're on the same computer?

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240222/6b9edff6/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Feb 23 06:07:34 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2024 22:07:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4kSLXrDjziEnzFhuBaPfcD0fNKL4uB04dZuLSvZtNzrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRAm8VmpPFpc896-SxMLON-pCQua2v0Xw3i-rYL0o2HDA@mail .gmail.com>
 <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4kSLXrDjziEnzFhuBaPfcD0fNKL4uB04dZuLSvZtNzrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01da661e$98bfce50$ca3f6af0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] jbrains again, was: RE: Early Archives...

>...This makes no sense in engineering terms...

It makes no sense in our human terms because of our overall limiting factor: time.  We have all the material and energy we need, but our time is limited to less than a century.  Think of how your outlook would be different if you had all the time you need but are extremely limited by material.  

>...What are you trying to maximize/minimise?

Computation per unit metal.

>...You would be trying to get as much computation out of an object as you could while minimizing the distance between computational nodes...

If a JBrain is metal-limited but not at all time limited, then it can spread out enough to solve the overheating problem.  Most of the energy from the star gets away, but there is plenty of it there for the amount of data we can store, given our severe metal constraints.

>...As far as uploading goes, I don't think it will become popular until it is bidirectional.  And as far as humans merging, that's way too much like death.

Keith


Agree with all of this Keith, but you and I think speed, like the severely time-constrained meat creatures we are.  Think instead of a colony of JBrains with billions of years left on their star's main sequence before the helium fusion phase even starts, but with a severe constraint of its own: only 10^18 tons of metal available any time in the foreseeable ten billion years.  Your outlook will change, if you think of life from that perspective.

spike





From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 07:30:55 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:30:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?b?RWFybHkgQXJjaGl2ZXMuLi4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhI?=
	=?utf-8?q?umanity=E2=80=99s_remaining_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_li?=
	=?utf-8?q?ke_five_years_than_50=E2=80=99?=
In-Reply-To: <CABaSBayqmgBPkbkAfP-J0pJNbfaJxBhMcYbxTUJHD0sT+EDhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAKTCJycuQ6bdJCk58p+r+hSdaGamojd2K7p_UedcRxOO-+GRpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABaSBayqmgBPkbkAfP-J0pJNbfaJxBhMcYbxTUJHD0sT+EDhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycnPE-A2VJkYLHcKwpq63DnN-gMvTjv0mL-GQhHcfY8qA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 7:05?PM Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:

> These files are already online.
>

Where? The GitHub repo has files from 1996, but we are talking of 1993-96
files.


>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 12:02?PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 at 18:52, Max More via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I could upload the files but I don't know the format. The files have
>>> names like "DIG30269". The files open just fine using MS Notepad. The one I
>>> opened as a test had a message from Reilly Jones ? another old name to
>>> remember. Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.
>>>
>>
>> Send them to me!
>>
>>
>>> From: Reilly Jones <70544.1227 at compuserve.com>
>>> Date: 31 Oct 94 17:35:54 EST
>>> Subject: [#94-10-621] Zen Physics Enlightenment
>>>
>>> Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine about
>>> Zen
>>> enlightenment.  I know of no one who has experienced much of it who has
>>> also
>>> been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical
>>> discoveries.
>>> In particular, the dozen or so people formerly known for substantial
>>> accomplishments in modern physics seem to have totally lost those
>>> capacities...
>>> I attribute this to serious mental damage from "Zen  enlightenment".
>>> The best
>>> evidence is seen in their strident claims of now being able to
>>> understand even
>>> more about mind and nature.>
>>>
>>> The mystic state is low-focus conscious attention.  It is
>>> content-transcending,
>>> meaning that the connections to external reality are implicit and bypass
>>> the
>>> semantic bootstrapping cognitive mechanism in our brains.  All mystics,
>>> everywhere and forever, can describe in great semantic detail, the trip
>>> to
>>> enlightenment, as they gradually shut off the external world of desires,
>>> and get
>>> their focus of attention lower and lower (or broader).  At some point,
>>> the
>>> attentive state goes below semantic content and opens up to implicit
>>> knowledge,
>>> the open-ended connections between non-self and the self.  Nothing from
>>> this
>>> mental state can be brought back into consensual reality to share with
>>> others
>>> because it is literally wordless.
>>>
>>> The philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset agrees with Marvin's assessment as
>>> to
>>> mysticism's practical value:
>>>
>>>   "My objection to mysticism is that out of the mystic vision no
>>> intellectual
>>>   benefit redounds to mankind.  Fortunately some mystics were thinkers of
>>>   genius before they were mystics-men like Plotinus, Meister Eckhart, and
>>>   Bergson.  In these men the fertility of thought, logical or expressed,
>>>   contrasts curiously with the poverty of what they discovered when in a
>>>   state of ecstasy."
>>>
>>> I think that when people who have contributed in the intellectual field
>>> go off
>>> on a mystical journey, that they have somehow sensed the sterility of
>>> the field
>>> they are working in.  They have sensed that their field is approaching a
>>> complexity catastrophe that is due to the exceedingly rugged fitness
>>> landscape,
>>> the steepness of the scientific peak of knowledge they and others are
>>> clinging
>>> to.  They know that unless they descend the peak, and search in the
>>> basins
>>> between clusters of peaks of potential knowledge, that they have ended
>>> up in an
>>> epistemic evolutionary dead-end.
>>>
>>> The state of advanced physics, cosmology and mathematics for the bulk of
>>> this
>>> century has been sterile and dead-ended (relative to other, more
>>> productive
>>> epochs or other current scientific fields), assumptions at the very core
>>> of
>>> these fields must need to be re-examined.  This felt need for
>>> re-examination is
>>> what launches specialists off into the basins for a long-jump search.
>>> It is an
>>> exceedingly low-probability tactic of discovering where the assumptions
>>> went
>>> wrong or discovering better assumptions, but the people making the
>>> search have
>>> decided that local hill-climbing, or tweaking the existing scientific
>>> framework,
>>> is not going to be fruitful.  So, although most people going this route
>>> waste a
>>> lot of time in fruitless search, it is unpredictable when and if someone
>>> will
>>> come up with something highly fruitful.  Sometimes a trip to the
>>> wilderness
>>> makes you see things differently, usually you just get bug-infested and
>>> dirty.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Reilly Jones               |        Philosophy of Technology:
>>> 70544.1227 at compuserve.com  |  The rational, moral and political
>>> relations
>>>                            |  between 'How we create' and 'Why we create'
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> on behalf
>>> of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2024 10:10 AM
>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>> *Cc:* Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky ?Humanity?s
>>> remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50?
>>>
>>> This GitHub repo has archives from 1996, upload new archives here, or
>>> send them to me and I will upload them.
>>> https://github.com/Extropians/extropians
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:25, MB via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Keith,
>>>
>>> It would be a plus to share those archives with someone on the list
>>> (*not*
>>> me!) - like John Klos, or spike or ExIMod, someone who will preserve them
>>> besides you.  Just something to consider.  :)
>>>
>>> Be Well!
>>> Regards,
>>> MB
>>>
>>> On Tue, February 20, 2024 20:50, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>
>>> > PS.  I have the early archives of Extropy Chat, but they are had to
>>> > access.
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240223/4041f4f8/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 13:45:01 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:45:01 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Mind Uploading
Message-ID: <CAL_armgOwrp+Xn-8L-yEBVaqL1NEXJYfZrENeBzXvfNhZF2rVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 04:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 4:03 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> The uploads would think faster, be tightly interconnected and share a
>> common knowledge database. They would be working together for goals
>> that we can hardly imagine.
>
>
> Would they, just because they're on the same computer?
> _______________________________________________


Wow!  :)  That's a one-liner that needs an article-length response!
As you know, there has been much written to speculate about what human mind
uploading might be like.   I cannot see uploaded humans continuing to
behave the same as when in a physical body. Luckily, we now have helpers to
do the research.

What you are really asking is "How might mind uploading change humans?".

OK. Here is the result that some AIs produced.
BillK

*The Impact of Mind Uploading on Humans*

*Mind uploading*, also known as whole brain emulation, is a hypothetical
concept that involves transferring the mental contents of a biological
brain to a computer or digital substrate. If mind uploading were to become
a reality, it would have profound implications for humanity, fundamentally
changing the way we perceive ourselves and interact with the world. Here
are some ways in which mind uploading could potentially change humans:


   1.

   *Immortality*: One of the most significant potential impacts of mind
   uploading is the possibility of achieving a form of digital immortality. By
   transferring one?s consciousness to a digital substrate, individuals could
   theoretically live indefinitely, free from the limitations of aging and
   disease.
   2.

   *Enhanced Cognitive Abilities*: Mind uploading could potentially allow
   for the enhancement of cognitive abilities beyond what is possible with a
   biological brain. By running on advanced computing systems, uploaded minds
   could process information faster, store vast amounts of data, and
   potentially even access artificial intelligence algorithms to augment their
   thinking capabilities. It might be possible to optimize and enhance the
   brain's capabilities, potentially leading to superhuman intelligence,
   memory, and problem-solving abilities. Instant communication is
   effectively telepathy with other uploaded minds.
   3.

   *Virtual Existence*: Uploaded minds could exist in virtual environments,
   experiencing realities that are not bound by the physical constraints of
   the real world. This could open up new possibilities for exploration,
   creativity, and social interaction in virtual spaces.
   4.

   *Ethical and Philosophical Considerations*: The advent of mind uploading
   would raise complex ethical and philosophical questions about identity,
   consciousness, autonomy, and personhood. What defines an individual? Would
   an uploaded mind be considered the same person as the original biological
   entity? How would society treat entities existing solely in digital form?
   5.

   *A Philosophical Transformation*

   The ability to upload human minds would force society to re-examine the
   fundamental definitions and values of human life. Removing minds from
   biological constraints fundamentally alters conceptions of life, death, and
   the nature of existence. It may change humanity's relationship with
   mortality and notions of the "soul" as distinct from consciousness. It
   could lead to existential questions, and changes in how individuals relate
   to their 'self' and identities. Uploading also blurs the lines between
   humans and machines. Society will need an open philosophical dialogue to
   adapt to these changes.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240223/ac375dd5/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Feb 23 14:06:21 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 06:06:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Przybylski's Star
Message-ID: <bb57ee33db001da1bbf2376369adcde4@sollegro.com>


While Boyajian's star and the cluster of periodically dimming stars that 
it is a part of is the source of much speculation on our lists, I would 
like to point out another weird star: Przybylski's star HD 101065.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1804.07260

While it has been shockingly weird since its discovery in 1961, 
scientists have yet to explain its weird properties or find another star 
quite like it. It is a type Ap star of 1.5 solar masses that spins 
unusually slowly. It is 1.5 billion years old and getting ready to exit 
the main sequence. It has the strangest stellar spectrum in the book. It 
has below average levels of iron for a star of its age, but check this 
out: it has actinides in it. What are actinides? They are the 
radioactive elements that we have always considered to manmade because 
they are often the radioactive waste products of our nuclear reactors: 
actinium, protactinium, neptunium, plutonium, americium, curium, 
berkelium, californium, and einsteinium.

And that last one einsteinium? Get this; it has a half-life of 3.5 or 22 
HOURS depending on the isotope! How does an element with a half-life 
measured in mere hours reach detectable levels in a 1.5 billion year old 
star? Is ET using the star to dispose of its radioactive waste? Strange 
no?

Stuart LaForge


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 15:37:58 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 07:37:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Mind Uploading
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgOwrp+Xn-8L-yEBVaqL1NEXJYfZrENeBzXvfNhZF2rVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgOwrp+Xn-8L-yEBVaqL1NEXJYfZrENeBzXvfNhZF2rVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSr+ezmQ5+ZL7W4Q9LCt+EhXCcOPT4vE1D_LVdb6AXGdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 5:47 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 04:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 4:03 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >> The uploads would think faster, be tightly interconnected and share a
> >> common knowledge database. They would be working together for goals
> >> that we can hardly imagine.
> >
> > Would they, just because they're on the same computer?
>
> Wow!  :)  That's a one-liner that needs an article-length response!
>

Sometimes I do have such thoughts, it seems. ;)

>
> What you are really asking is "How might mind uploading change humans?".
>

No, that is not what I am asking, for it is so broad that answers to that
mostly fail to answer my question.

My question might be a subset of that, focused on whether uploading would
change individuality and competitiveness, and specifically whether merely
being on the same computer would necessarily mean that uploads would share
their goals and work together.  For all the other changes that uploading
might bring, I don't see that particular one as a given.

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240223/b707503a/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 16:01:09 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:01:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mind Uploading
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSr+ezmQ5+ZL7W4Q9LCt+EhXCcOPT4vE1D_LVdb6AXGdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgOwrp+Xn-8L-yEBVaqL1NEXJYfZrENeBzXvfNhZF2rVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSr+ezmQ5+ZL7W4Q9LCt+EhXCcOPT4vE1D_LVdb6AXGdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onuEFnvRN_UvVSmayG1j66_c9m4PzLmdLX6yv9KPBY1MxA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, and a further subset is what is the solution to the "binding problem
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem>"?
It needs to be more than just in the same computer, or even data
represented in the same CPU.
Half of our visual knowledge is represented in one hemisphere, and the
other half in the other.  The corpus callosum is able to computationally
bind them into one unified world, in our head, representing what we see
with false color qualities (or qualia if you must.)  Redness is not a
property of the strawberry, it is a false colored property of your
knowledge of the strawberry.
The way we are aware of this space, as our knowledge of our spirits have
"out of body experiences" is a very powerful computational process of
awareness.
An important part of phenomenal qualities, like redness and greenness,
whatever they are, is their ability to be computationally bound in this
intelligent way.
You can't 'see' or perceive phenomenal qualities because the causally down
stream causes are not the same as the qualities themselves.
Downstream causal effects are only representations of the same, and don't
have the same qualities.  You need a transducing dictionary to get back to
the quality.

Consciousness is what it is like for a phenomenal cpu to compute
directly on qualities like redness and greenness.  Discrete abstract logic
gates do computational binding in a CPU in a very different way which has
nothing to do with any particular physical properties.















On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 8:39?AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024, 5:47 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 04:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 4:03 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >> The uploads would think faster, be tightly interconnected and share a
>> >> common knowledge database. They would be working together for goals
>> >> that we can hardly imagine.
>> >
>> > Would they, just because they're on the same computer?
>>
>> Wow!  :)  That's a one-liner that needs an article-length response!
>>
>
> Sometimes I do have such thoughts, it seems. ;)
>
>>
>> What you are really asking is "How might mind uploading change humans?".
>>
>
> No, that is not what I am asking, for it is so broad that answers to that
> mostly fail to answer my question.
>
> My question might be a subset of that, focused on whether uploading would
> change individuality and competitiveness, and specifically whether merely
> being on the same computer would necessarily mean that uploads would share
> their goals and work together.  For all the other changes that uploading
> might bring, I don't see that particular one as a given.
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240223/5e5067e1/attachment-0001.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 16:34:03 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 16:34:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Mind Uploading
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSr+ezmQ5+ZL7W4Q9LCt+EhXCcOPT4vE1D_LVdb6AXGdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgOwrp+Xn-8L-yEBVaqL1NEXJYfZrENeBzXvfNhZF2rVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSr+ezmQ5+ZL7W4Q9LCt+EhXCcOPT4vE1D_LVdb6AXGdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-qKs7zXT+PHQRi-UL2=xAuZknhdA0mAEbf1LfUWG7KA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 15:40, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> My question might be a subset of that, focused on whether uploading would change individuality and competitiveness, and specifically whether merely being on the same computer would necessarily mean that uploads would share their goals and work together.  For all the other changes that uploading might bring, I don't see that particular one as a given.
> _______________________________________________


The AIs have had a huddle,  ;)  and their conclusion is ---
"Don't know. Maybe, maybe not".
Lots of speculation, on the one hand this, then on the other hand......

One comment I found interesting was:
Individuality could diminish over time after uploading.
Without biological needs and constraints, uploaded minds may evolve in
their values and goals.
This could lead to more collaboration and less competition.
------------------

(Of course, 'diminish over time' could appear to be instantaneous to
the outside world).

This feels significant to me. So much of human life is a struggle for
bodily survival and planning for future care and security. When this
is removed and needs can be met instantly in a virtual environment,
the uploads will find other tasks, and they can evolve their minds to
tackle different challenges. Harming other uploaded minds should
appear to be a pretty pointless activity.


BillK


From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 18:48:31 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 11:48:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <005c01da661e$98bfce50$ca3f6af0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4kSLXrDjziEnzFhuBaPfcD0fNKL4uB04dZuLSvZtNzrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da661e$98bfce50$ca3f6af0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRLc8p38Yup1J6JVhjP6BB=OZvc0v83M5oaK=V=6CryBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Which raises an interesting question:

If a civilization was mass-drivering metal from one star system to another
in astronomical quantities, at what range - if any - would we be able to
detect it, and what would it look like?

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] jbrains again, was: RE: Early Archives...
>
> >...This makes no sense in engineering terms...
>
> It makes no sense in our human terms because of our overall limiting
> factor: time.  We have all the material and energy we need, but our time is
> limited to less than a century.  Think of how your outlook would be
> different if you had all the time you need but are extremely limited by
> material.
>
> >...What are you trying to maximize/minimise?
>
> Computation per unit metal.
>
> >...You would be trying to get as much computation out of an object as you
> could while minimizing the distance between computational nodes...
>
> If a JBrain is metal-limited but not at all time limited, then it can
> spread out enough to solve the overheating problem.  Most of the energy
> from the star gets away, but there is plenty of it there for the amount of
> data we can store, given our severe metal constraints.
>
> >...As far as uploading goes, I don't think it will become popular until
> it is bidirectional.  And as far as humans merging, that's way too much
> like death.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Agree with all of this Keith, but you and I think speed, like the severely
> time-constrained meat creatures we are.  Think instead of a colony of
> JBrains with billions of years left on their star's main sequence before
> the helium fusion phase even starts, but with a severe constraint of its
> own: only 10^18 tons of metal available any time in the foreseeable ten
> billion years.  Your outlook will change, if you think of life from that
> perspective.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240223/415fd4a1/attachment.htm>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 20:20:11 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 12:20:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <005c01da661e$98bfce50$ca3f6af0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4kSLXrDjziEnzFhuBaPfcD0fNKL4uB04dZuLSvZtNzrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da661e$98bfce50$ca3f6af0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6G02zdSeCsQ58jRSywFTm2a2tMVnWDrexq1Dz3d5opJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 10:07?PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] jbrains again, was: RE: Early Archives...
>
> >...This makes no sense in engineering terms...
>
> It makes no sense in our human terms because of our overall limiting factor: time.  We have all the material and energy we need, but our time is limited to less than a century.

You say that on this list?  Astonishing!

> Think of how your outlook would be different if you had all the time you need but are extremely limited by material.
>
> >...What are you trying to maximize/minimise?
>
> Computation per unit metal.

It's not obvious that metal is the best substrate.  Surely you
remember discussions about rod logic.  But without digging out the
cores of planets, Psyche 16 has (2.287?0.070)?1019 kg,  That's
something like 10^9kg per person unless you are counting on a heck of
a population growth.

> >...You would be trying to get as much computation out of an object as you could while minimizing the distance between computational nodes...
>
> If a JBrain is metal-limited but not at all time limited, then it can spread out enough to solve the overheating problem.  Most of the energy from the star gets away, but there is plenty of it there for the amount of data we can store, given our severe metal constraints.
>
> >...As far as uploading goes, I don't think it will become popular until it is bidirectional.  And as far as humans merging, that's way too much like death.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Agree with all of this Keith, but you and I think speed, like the severely time-constrained meat creatures we are.  Think instead of a colony of JBrains with billions of years

The slow-thinking JBrains will be eaten and converted to fast-thinking brains.

Keith

> left on their star's main sequence before the helium fusion phase even starts, but with a severe constraint of its own: only 10^18 tons of metal available any time in the foreseeable ten billion years.  Your outlook will change, if you think of life from that perspective.
>
> spike
>
>
>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 20:22:59 2024
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 12:22:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?jbrains_again=2C_was=3A_RE=3A_Early_Archives=2E?=
	=?utf-8?b?Li4gUmU6IFl1ZGtvd3NreSDigJhIdW1hbml0eeKAmXMgcmVtYWluaW5n?=
	=?utf-8?q?_timeline=3F_It_looks_more_like_five_years_than_50?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkRLc8p38Yup1J6JVhjP6BB=OZvc0v83M5oaK=V=6CryBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <PH0PR06MB77063DB7F0F86A1161450E49A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPiwVB6-rtS_WhqDEeEWOqa4qUwJM8QEh7+GQWJZFN6PgGmM1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <072be5b1b9e6113f7a30e1137848a8a9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPiwVB6jhu1XNFAA60khyhn5naOPS0YL4UpLkWDPe_Ka3aQLaQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701da65b4$d3df33f0$7b9d9bd0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB7xHJ2RkpsbTxda3DyvCNxxbcM0Lr5njZL8N0SZ_UNzHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007f01da65dc$75c583a0$61508ae0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiFYAdgUbfDYHFWKrTokTtFVKTYACn=M3shOH_4PjXprQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007d01da65e9$d8a4b830$89ee2890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB4kSLXrDjziEnzFhuBaPfcD0fNKL4uB04dZuLSvZtNzrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01da661e$98bfce50$ca3f6af0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAEptUkRLc8p38Yup1J6JVhjP6BB=OZvc0v83M5oaK=V=6CryBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6=uoL9odEua-=oDR8Se5ZAu1+h4kzg3Dky4EC1Wn_z=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 10:50?AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Which raises an interesting question:
>
> If a civilization was mass-drivering metal from one star system to another in astronomical quantities, at what range - if any - would we be able to detect it, and what would it look like?

I seriously doubt this would ever happen given the amount of metal
around any star.

Keith

> On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:10?PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] jbrains again, was: RE: Early Archives...
>>
>> >...This makes no sense in engineering terms...
>>
>> It makes no sense in our human terms because of our overall limiting factor: time.  We have all the material and energy we need, but our time is limited to less than a century.  Think of how your outlook would be different if you had all the time you need but are extremely limited by material.
>>
>> >...What are you trying to maximize/minimise?
>>
>> Computation per unit metal.
>>
>> >...You would be trying to get as much computation out of an object as you could while minimizing the distance between computational nodes...
>>
>> If a JBrain is metal-limited but not at all time limited, then it can spread out enough to solve the overheating problem.  Most of the energy from the star gets away, but there is plenty of it there for the amount of data we can store, given our severe metal constraints.
>>
>> >...As far as uploading goes, I don't think it will become popular until it is bidirectional.  And as far as humans merging, that's way too much like death.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> Agree with all of this Keith, but you and I think speed, like the severely time-constrained meat creatures we are.  Think instead of a colony of JBrains with billions of years left on their star's main sequence before the helium fusion phase even starts, but with a severe constraint of its own: only 10^18 tons of metal available any time in the foreseeable ten billion years.  Your outlook will change, if you think of life from that perspective.
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 05:37:08 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 22:37:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fully Automated Luxury Communism
Message-ID: <CACBESnAgZ4TjTgEN8kxeyudEhUw_k5Q1WtY6gEJ6gORmeYJEfg@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone here read Fully Automated Luxury Communism yet? Is it worth the
time? It would seem to be up our alley.

-Kelly

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 10:46:26 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 10:46:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Fully Automated Luxury Communism
In-Reply-To: <CACBESnAgZ4TjTgEN8kxeyudEhUw_k5Q1WtY6gEJ6gORmeYJEfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnAgZ4TjTgEN8kxeyudEhUw_k5Q1WtY6gEJ6gORmeYJEfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgwVGbWbTOKDDi4B6b6zK7vR_+VCbCwzXg4EXj4QM70GA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 05:40, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Anyone here read Fully Automated Luxury Communism yet? Is it worth the
> time? It would seem to be up our alley.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________

Many reviews here:-
<
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37758635-fully-automated-luxury-communism
>
BillK

AI Book Summary-

*Fully Automated Luxury Communism Summary:*

"Fully Automated Luxury Communism" by Aaron Bastani envisions a future
where technological advancements pave the way for a post-capitalist society
characterized by abundance and leisure for all individuals. The book
explores how automation, artificial intelligence, and other innovations
could revolutionize the world and usher in an era of unprecedented
prosperity.

   1. *Key Takeaway 1: Automation and Post-Work Society*
      - Bastani argues that automation has the potential to eliminate the
      need for most forms of human labor, leading to a future where work is no
      longer a central aspect of life.
      - This shift towards a post-work society could enable individuals to
      pursue creative endeavors, personal interests, and leisure activities,
      fundamentally altering the way we perceive and engage with work.
   2. *Key Takeaway 2: Abundance and Resource Distribution*
      - Through the lens of fully automated luxury communism, the book
      highlights the possibility of abundant resources and a more equitable
      distribution of wealth and goods.
      - Advancements in technology could make it possible to provide for
      the needs of all individuals, ensuring access to quality healthcare,
      education, food, and housing without the constraints of scarcity.
   3. *Key Takeaway 3: Technological Innovation and Climate Change*
      - Bastani emphasizes the role of technology in addressing pressing
      global challenges, such as climate change and environmental degradation.
      - By harnessing innovation and sustainable practices, a fully
      automated luxury communist society could prioritize environmental
      preservation and create a more sustainable future for generations to come.
   4. *Key Takeaway 4: Political and Economic Transformation*
      - The book delves into the implications of transitioning from
      capitalism to a new socio-economic system based on principles of
abundance,
      equality, and automation.
      - This shift would require reimagining existing power structures,
      redefining notions of ownership and property, and fostering cooperative
      relationships among individuals and communities.
   5. *Key Takeaway 5: Utopian Vision and Criticisms*
      - While presenting a utopian vision of a fully automated luxury
      communist society, Bastani also acknowledges criticisms and challenges
      associated with realizing such a future.
      - Questions about governance, human agency, cultural values, and the
      role of technology in shaping society are raised, inviting readers to
      critically engage with the possibilities and limitations of the proposed
      framework.

*Overall, "Fully Automated Luxury Communism" invites readers to contemplate
a future where technology, abundance, and social cooperation converge to
create a more equitable and sustainable world. By challenging traditional
notions of work, wealth distribution, and progress, the book inspires
discussions about alternative models of society and the transformative
potential of emerging technologies in shaping our collective future.*


*-------------------------*
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240224/cb217999/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 13:29:57 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 07:29:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fully Automated Luxury Communism
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgwVGbWbTOKDDi4B6b6zK7vR_+VCbCwzXg4EXj4QM70GA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACBESnAgZ4TjTgEN8kxeyudEhUw_k5Q1WtY6gEJ6gORmeYJEfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgwVGbWbTOKDDi4B6b6zK7vR_+VCbCwzXg4EXj4QM70GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZpYGSM+ku6qfG4uSz4OiNjL+dNsdH63XO=OUQDO+GujQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does this mean that the word 'lazy' will disappear from the dictionary?
bill w

On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 4:49?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 05:40, Kelly Anderson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > Anyone here read Fully Automated Luxury Communism yet? Is it worth the
> > time? It would seem to be up our alley.
> >
> > -Kelly
> > _______________________________________________
>
> Many reviews here:-
> <
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37758635-fully-automated-luxury-communism
> >
> BillK
>
> AI Book Summary-
>
> *Fully Automated Luxury Communism Summary:*
>
> "Fully Automated Luxury Communism" by Aaron Bastani envisions a future
> where technological advancements pave the way for a post-capitalist society
> characterized by abundance and leisure for all individuals. The book
> explores how automation, artificial intelligence, and other innovations
> could revolutionize the world and usher in an era of unprecedented
> prosperity.
>
>    1. *Key Takeaway 1: Automation and Post-Work Society*
>       - Bastani argues that automation has the potential to eliminate the
>       need for most forms of human labor, leading to a future where work is no
>       longer a central aspect of life.
>       - This shift towards a post-work society could enable individuals
>       to pursue creative endeavors, personal interests, and leisure activities,
>       fundamentally altering the way we perceive and engage with work.
>    2. *Key Takeaway 2: Abundance and Resource Distribution*
>       - Through the lens of fully automated luxury communism, the book
>       highlights the possibility of abundant resources and a more equitable
>       distribution of wealth and goods.
>       - Advancements in technology could make it possible to provide for
>       the needs of all individuals, ensuring access to quality healthcare,
>       education, food, and housing without the constraints of scarcity.
>    3. *Key Takeaway 3: Technological Innovation and Climate Change*
>       - Bastani emphasizes the role of technology in addressing pressing
>       global challenges, such as climate change and environmental degradation.
>       - By harnessing innovation and sustainable practices, a fully
>       automated luxury communist society could prioritize environmental
>       preservation and create a more sustainable future for generations to come.
>    4. *Key Takeaway 4: Political and Economic Transformation*
>       - The book delves into the implications of transitioning from
>       capitalism to a new socio-economic system based on principles of abundance,
>       equality, and automation.
>       - This shift would require reimagining existing power structures,
>       redefining notions of ownership and property, and fostering cooperative
>       relationships among individuals and communities.
>    5. *Key Takeaway 5: Utopian Vision and Criticisms*
>       - While presenting a utopian vision of a fully automated luxury
>       communist society, Bastani also acknowledges criticisms and challenges
>       associated with realizing such a future.
>       - Questions about governance, human agency, cultural values, and
>       the role of technology in shaping society are raised, inviting readers to
>       critically engage with the possibilities and limitations of the proposed
>       framework.
>
> *Overall, "Fully Automated Luxury Communism" invites readers to
> contemplate a future where technology, abundance, and social cooperation
> converge to create a more equitable and sustainable world. By challenging
> traditional notions of work, wealth distribution, and progress, the book
> inspires discussions about alternative models of society and the
> transformative potential of emerging technologies in shaping our collective
> future.*
>
>
> *-------------------------*
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240224/5e60bb70/attachment.htm>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Feb 24 16:04:50 2024
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 08:04:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
 timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
In-Reply-To: <005b01da65bf$07efdcd0$17cf9670$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <005b01da65bf$07efdcd0$17cf9670$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <54f4e0d18c7cb9296bbbfac951692962@sollegro.com>

On 2024-02-22 10:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> Of Max More via extropy-chat
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's
> remaining timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
> 
>> ? Here it is, from.... wow, almost 30 years ago.
> 
> 
>> ?Marvin Minsky wrote 10/30/94: <I don't know why you're so sanguine
> about Zen
> 
> enlightenment.  I know of no one who has experienced much of it who
> has also
> 
> been able to continue to make significant mathematical or physical
> discoveries?.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> If one cruises thru the older archives, one is struck by how much
> longer was our collective attention span back in those benighted
> times.  We had a prominent ExI guy who specifically expressed stern
> disapprobation on the posting of short comments, suggesting a ban on
> one liners.

LOL. I remember that guy and those days. I actually proofread and 
revised my emails to the list back then. These days I seldom do. I blame 
lack of time and social media for the twitterification of my posts. That 
and Bill W. When he showed up and started writing one line emails and 
THAT GUY didn't immediately rake him over the coals for it, I realized I 
too could get away with it. ;)

Stuart LaForge

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 16:39:24 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 10:39:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYeBs4Ptfm5AwMdQiPTapxAXySgHFRdibisscb5uAKk1A@mail.gmail.com>

>From boredpanda.com

'A 72 hour hold in a psych unit is beginning to appeal to me as a potential
vacation opportunity.'   bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240224/25f4dd29/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 17:22:19 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 11:22:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] uploads etc.
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb6K23VHj9JiPEKatrnDG4jpJifn_saxcgoZWzd1CEgzA@mail.gmail.com>

Suppose two uploads were in the same room.  How would they read each other
like people read body language and facial expressions?

Here's an idea from
Consider PHlebas - Banks -

In that book the AI drones have lights, such as green, red, etc. to
communicate moods and such.

Could they in addition have tones of voice?  Of course.  What else?    bill
w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240224/e8561bfb/attachment.htm>

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 25 01:17:57 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 17:17:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Early Archives... Re: Yudkowsky 'Humanity's remaining
 timeline? It looks more like five years than 50'
In-Reply-To: <54f4e0d18c7cb9296bbbfac951692962@sollegro.com>
References: <CAL_armi5meyzC7nqsA1cY_ht7crTsDRo6a8SYGLG=ukT2brnzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTSzuQ+Raz3d==MuA_Tzwa+iGY-rOuUwW7QCReEppsO0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a901da642b$e6ce6bf0$b46b43d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQL_F1_f_1oniBFv=24jaB-2_bezLAEPhRfEn+2M0QJQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201da6431$d67c81f0$837585d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPiwVB5AY5D7tSt5e1Aru+xL=xTa5iT3yi7sv6+kMT1Z0THWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <fed1c03acb1c519b6725ce8f72c6d574.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAKTCJydwXDKdo96hCEcP9MFVhsUBNenvqbMQ+ySeE5obXyRFug@mail.gmail.com>
 <PH0PR06MB7706517DCA30C79BD4A1C8C9A0562@PH0PR06MB7706.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <005b01da65bf$07efdcd0$17cf9670$@rainier66.com>
 <54f4e0d18c7cb9296bbbfac951692962@sollegro.com>
Message-ID: <00f801da6788$77abc550$67034ff0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> 



>>...We had a prominent ExI guy who specifically expressed stern 
> disapprobation on the posting of short comments, suggesting a ban on 
> one liners.

>...LOL. I remember that guy and those days. I actually proofread and revised my emails to the list back then. These days I seldom do. I blame lack of time and social media for the twitterification of my posts. That and Bill W. When he showed up and started writing one line emails and THAT GUY didn't immediately rake him over the coals for it, I realized I too could get away with it. ;)

Stuart LaForge



Stuart, the poster in question had left us shortly before BillW arrived, but it is easy to see how those two events can be conflated in time.  Even before Dr. W came along, I saw some value in very short posts.  We are not being charged postage or anything of that kind.  If one's thought is short and specific on a topic, then one's post should match it.  I see this forum as an ongoing 30 year party, more than analogous to a journal.  Humor is a good thing, methinks, for in good humor is an idea worthy of consideration in some way.  At a party, some of the best and most entertaining comments consist of only a few words.

The success of Twitter might have something to do with the notion of the value of getting right to the point.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Feb 25 01:37:34 2024
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2024 17:37:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYeBs4Ptfm5AwMdQiPTapxAXySgHFRdibisscb5uAKk1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYeBs4Ptfm5AwMdQiPTapxAXySgHFRdibisscb5uAKk1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01da678b$35a323d0$a0e96b70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



 

'A 72 hour hold in a psych unit is beginning to appeal to me as a potential vacation opportunity.'   bill w

 

 

Billw, you are in a position to know more about this than I do, being in the biz.  What if? we made a kind of theme resort, around the notion of being a play version of a psych ward?  Consider the controversial success of Heart Attack Grill in Las Vegas, which makes it clear enough that scarfing fat-bombs like burgers and greasy fries damn well does corrode your pipes.  No point denying the obvious.

 

A psych ward is the site of nearly unimaginable pain and suffering, so the entire idea of creating a parody-ish vacation site on that theme might just be a little beyond the scope of reality.  But I woulda said the same about Heart Attack Grill, which turned into a huge tourist draw, causing me to be pissed off for not thinking of it first.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240224/6638c1a9/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 18:16:17 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 12:16:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZXZ5d0=Dcx6yWOC=nUOp-zLftVfHFtusW3K=LG04xLcw@mail.gmail.com>

Confucius:

"Man differs from the animal by only a little; most men throw that
little away."

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240226/ae81acfa/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 23:39:10 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 23:39:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] uploads etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb6K23VHj9JiPEKatrnDG4jpJifn_saxcgoZWzd1CEgzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb6K23VHj9JiPEKatrnDG4jpJifn_saxcgoZWzd1CEgzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjjgvLbJmqxX3-ptYGW=bxwGG-CCL4dPR-bU0BWahs91A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 17:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Suppose two uploads were in the same room.  How would they read each other
> like people read body language and facial expressions?
>
> Here's an idea from Consider PHlebas - Banks -
> In that book the AI drones have lights, such as green, red, etc. to
> communicate moods and such.
>
> Could they in addition have tones of voice?  Of course.  What else?
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
>
>

Coloured lights??   For uploaded humans??  How primitive!  They will have
telepathy equivalent.
BillK

I asked -
After humans upload into computers, how would the uploaded humans
communicate with other uploaded humans?

AI Answer -

The concept of humans uploading into computers and then communicating with
each other, specifically with other uploaded humans, is a fascinating and
speculative topic. It touches on the intersection of neuroscience,
artificial intelligence, and quantum computing. Here's a detailed
exploration of how such a scenario might unfold, focusing on the
communication aspect between uploaded humans:
1. Direct Brain-to-Brain Communication

One of the most direct ways for uploaded humans to communicate with each
other would be through direct brain-to-brain communication. This would
involve the digital copies of brains directly interacting with each other,
potentially bypassing the need for a physical interface.

   - *Implementation*: Each uploaded human would have a digital copy of
   their brain, which could be directly linked to the digital copies of other
   uploaded humans. This would allow for the transmission of thoughts,
   emotions, and other forms of communication directly between the digital
   brains.
   - *Communication*: Communication could occur through thought-to-thought
   transmission, where the thoughts of one uploaded human are directly
   understood by another. This could involve complex conversations, sharing of
   ideas, and even the exchange of emotions and experiences.

2. Virtual Reality (VR) and Augmented Reality (AR) Environments

Another way for uploaded humans to communicate with each other would be
through virtual reality (VR) and augmented reality (AR) environments. These
technologies allow for the creation of immersive digital worlds where
humans can interact with each other in a digital form.

   - *Implementation*: After uploading, each human would have a digital
   avatar in a VR or AR environment. These avatars could be controlled by the
   uploaded brain, allowing for physical interaction within the virtual world.
   - *Communication*: Communication could occur through voice, text,
   gestures, or even direct thought-to-thought communication, depending on the
   capabilities of the VR/AR system and the uploaded brain's interface. This
   could involve complex discussions, collaborations, and even the sharing of
   experiences in a virtual space.

3. Quantum Communication

Quantum communication involves the use of quantum mechanics to transmit
information. This could potentially allow for faster and more secure
communication than current technologies.

   - *Implementation*: Quantum communication could be used to transmit the
   digital copies of brains or their thoughts directly between computers. This
   would require advanced quantum computing and quantum communication
   technologies.
   - *Communication*: The transmission of thoughts or data could be
   instantaneous, allowing for real-time communication between uploaded
   humans. This could involve the sharing of ideas, discussions, and even the
   exchange of emotions and experiences in a quantum-based digital space.

4. Neural Networks and AI

After uploading, humans could communicate through neural networks and
artificial intelligence (AI). This would involve the uploaded brain
controlling an AI system that can interpret and generate human-like
communication.

   - *Implementation*: The uploaded brain could control an AI system, which
   could interpret the brain's thoughts and generate speech, text, or other
   forms of communication. This AI system could then communicate with other
   uploaded humans through similar AI systems.
   - *Communication*: Communication could occur through the AI system,
   allowing for complex and nuanced interactions. This could involve the
   sharing of knowledge, the exchange of ideas, and even the creation of new
   concepts and theories.

Conclusion

The communication between uploaded humans would likely involve a
combination of these mechanisms, depending on the specific capabilities of
the technology and the preferences of the uploaded humans themselves. As
our understanding of the brain and technology continues to evolve, so too
will our ability to imagine and create new ways for humans to communicate
after uploading into computers.
-----------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240226/4a008668/attachment-0001.htm>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 00:35:39 2024
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2024 19:35:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] uploads etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjjgvLbJmqxX3-ptYGW=bxwGG-CCL4dPR-bU0BWahs91A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb6K23VHj9JiPEKatrnDG4jpJifn_saxcgoZWzd1CEgzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjjgvLbJmqxX3-ptYGW=bxwGG-CCL4dPR-bU0BWahs91A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKRvcY5BuiU=C2nyZvOE7tB+KH_287C+G-8X72Sh61H2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 26, 2024, 6:41 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 17:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Suppose two uploads were in the same room.  How would they read each
>> other like people read body language and facial expressions?
>>
>> Coloured lights??   For uploaded humans??  How primitive!  They will have
> telepathy equivalent.
> BillK
>
> I asked -
>
> After humans upload into computers, how would the uploaded humans communicate with other uploaded humans?
>
> AI Answer -
>

I was going to let it go, but I do see this as a growing concern.  We
recently noted that bytes/message have been going down for years.  The
logical conclusion of this is that uploaded humans won't actually
communicate with each other at all.  In this case BillK's message was less
than a tweet worth of snarcasm, a prompt for an AI answer, and the kind of
insightful perspective WE used to be capable of producing.

What makes "human level AI" if humans evolve into simulation of wet bio
completely isolated from this world by AR and assistive technology?

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240226/c23ab444/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:23:02 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 13:23:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] uploads etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKRvcY5BuiU=C2nyZvOE7tB+KH_287C+G-8X72Sh61H2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb6K23VHj9JiPEKatrnDG4jpJifn_saxcgoZWzd1CEgzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjjgvLbJmqxX3-ptYGW=bxwGG-CCL4dPR-bU0BWahs91A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKRvcY5BuiU=C2nyZvOE7tB+KH_287C+G-8X72Sh61H2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjR0Zs2e9ObARV-vMGueSsPAe8_1AwL5wFVT2=84sHsRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 at 00:38, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I was going to let it go, but I do see this as a growing concern.  We
> recently noted that bytes/message have been going down for years.  The
> logical conclusion of this is that uploaded humans won't actually
> communicate with each other at all.  In this case BillK's message was less
> than a tweet worth of snarcasm, a prompt for an AI answer, and the kind of
> insightful perspective WE used to be capable of producing.
>
> What makes "human level AI" if humans evolve into simulation of wet bio
> completely isolated from this world by AR and assistive technology?
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
After some discussion, I have the feeling that these advances will need
each other to progress together.
AI seems to agree.
BillK

I asked -
Will research into mind uploading and AGI assist each other?

AI answer -

Yes, research into mind uploading and AGI (Artificial General Intelligence)
can and likely will assist each other in several ways. This mutual
assistance is driven by the shared goal of understanding and replicating
human intelligence, which is a complex and multifaceted challenge. Here's
how the research in these areas can complement and enhance each other:
1. *Understanding Human Intelligence*

   - *Mind Uploading*: By attempting to upload human minds to digital
   formats, researchers aim to understand the intricacies of human
   consciousness and cognition. This process involves mapping the brain's
   activity, identifying patterns of thought, and translating them into
   digital form.
   - *AGI Development*: AGI research seeks to create systems that can
   perform any intellectual task that a human being can do. This involves
   developing algorithms and systems that can learn, reason, and understand in
   a way that mimics human intelligence.

2. *Technological Advancements*

   - *Mind Uploading*: The development of technologies for scanning and
   translating brain activity can provide insights into the physical and
   computational requirements for human intelligence. These technologies could
   also serve as a foundation for AGI, offering a way to model and simulate
   human cognition.
   - *AGI Development*: The creation of AGI systems that can perform
   complex tasks and learn from experience can provide a benchmark for
   understanding human intelligence. It can also inspire new approaches to
   mind uploading, such as developing digital substrates that can host
   uploaded minds.

3. *Ethical and Philosophical Considerations*

   - *Mind Uploading*: The ethical and philosophical questions surrounding
   the uploading of human minds are closely related to those surrounding AGI.
   Both fields raise questions about the nature of consciousness, the rights
   of individuals, and the implications for society.
   - *AGI Development*: The development of AGI systems that can think and
   learn like humans raises similar ethical and philosophical questions.
   Researchers in both fields are grappling with the implications of creating
   systems that can mimic human intelligence.

4. *Resource Allocation and Prioritization*

   - *Mind Uploading*: The resources and focus of the scientific community
   are often shared between these fields. Researchers and organizations might
   prioritize one over the other based on perceived urgency, ethical
   considerations, or technological feasibility.
   - *AGI Development*: The development of AGI is a major focus in the
   field of artificial intelligence, with significant investments and research
   efforts. The progress in AGI can influence the direction and prioritization
   of mind uploading research.

Conclusion

The research into mind uploading and AGI is interconnected, with each field
influencing and benefiting from the other. The shared goal of understanding
and replicating human intelligence drives the collaboration between these
areas. As both fields advance, they will likely continue to assist each
other, contributing to a deeper understanding of human intelligence and
paving the way for future technological advancements.
-------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240227/649b01b2/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:29:00 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 07:29:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] uploads etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjR0Zs2e9ObARV-vMGueSsPAe8_1AwL5wFVT2=84sHsRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb6K23VHj9JiPEKatrnDG4jpJifn_saxcgoZWzd1CEgzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjjgvLbJmqxX3-ptYGW=bxwGG-CCL4dPR-bU0BWahs91A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKRvcY5BuiU=C2nyZvOE7tB+KH_287C+G-8X72Sh61H2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjR0Zs2e9ObARV-vMGueSsPAe8_1AwL5wFVT2=84sHsRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa_XC6Jn3UrQgWDwR7ae4TG+q4r2Q2XHu2bxaxBxqo_3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I think that without a direct connection conversation between uploads is
impossible.  So telepathy is just as impossible with uploads as it is with
physical people.   bill w

On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 7:26?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Feb 2024 at 00:38, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I was going to let it go, but I do see this as a growing concern.  We
>> recently noted that bytes/message have been going down for years.  The
>> logical conclusion of this is that uploaded humans won't actually
>> communicate with each other at all.  In this case BillK's message was less
>> than a tweet worth of snarcasm, a prompt for an AI answer, and the kind of
>> insightful perspective WE used to be capable of producing.
>>
>> What makes "human level AI" if humans evolve into simulation of wet bio
>> completely isolated from this world by AR and assistive technology?
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
> After some discussion, I have the feeling that these advances will need
> each other to progress together.
> AI seems to agree.
> BillK
>
> I asked -
> Will research into mind uploading and AGI assist each other?
>
> AI answer -
>
> Yes, research into mind uploading and AGI (Artificial General
> Intelligence) can and likely will assist each other in several ways. This
> mutual assistance is driven by the shared goal of understanding and
> replicating human intelligence, which is a complex and multifaceted
> challenge. Here's how the research in these areas can complement and
> enhance each other:
> 1. *Understanding Human Intelligence*
>
>    - *Mind Uploading*: By attempting to upload human minds to digital
>    formats, researchers aim to understand the intricacies of human
>    consciousness and cognition. This process involves mapping the brain's
>    activity, identifying patterns of thought, and translating them into
>    digital form.
>    - *AGI Development*: AGI research seeks to create systems that can
>    perform any intellectual task that a human being can do. This involves
>    developing algorithms and systems that can learn, reason, and understand in
>    a way that mimics human intelligence.
>
> 2. *Technological Advancements*
>
>    - *Mind Uploading*: The development of technologies for scanning and
>    translating brain activity can provide insights into the physical and
>    computational requirements for human intelligence. These technologies could
>    also serve as a foundation for AGI, offering a way to model and simulate
>    human cognition.
>    - *AGI Development*: The creation of AGI systems that can perform
>    complex tasks and learn from experience can provide a benchmark for
>    understanding human intelligence. It can also inspire new approaches to
>    mind uploading, such as developing digital substrates that can host
>    uploaded minds.
>
> 3. *Ethical and Philosophical Considerations*
>
>    - *Mind Uploading*: The ethical and philosophical questions
>    surrounding the uploading of human minds are closely related to those
>    surrounding AGI. Both fields raise questions about the nature of
>    consciousness, the rights of individuals, and the implications for society.
>    - *AGI Development*: The development of AGI systems that can think and
>    learn like humans raises similar ethical and philosophical questions.
>    Researchers in both fields are grappling with the implications of creating
>    systems that can mimic human intelligence.
>
> 4. *Resource Allocation and Prioritization*
>
>    - *Mind Uploading*: The resources and focus of the scientific
>    community are often shared between these fields. Researchers and
>    organizations might prioritize one over the other based on perceived
>    urgency, ethical considerations, or technological feasibility.
>    - *AGI Development*: The development of AGI is a major focus in the
>    field of artificial intelligence, with significant investments and research
>    efforts. The progress in AGI can influence the direction and prioritization
>    of mind uploading research.
>
> Conclusion
>
> The research into mind uploading and AGI is interconnected, with each
> field influencing and benefiting from the other. The shared goal of
> understanding and replicating human intelligence drives the collaboration
> between these areas. As both fields advance, they will likely continue to
> assist each other, contributing to a deeper understanding of human
> intelligence and paving the way for future technological advancements.
> -------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240227/18d5c7f8/attachment.htm>

From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Feb 27 13:50:42 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2024 13:50:42 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Mind Uploading
In-Reply-To: <mailman.57.1708990806.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.57.1708990806.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <92b84035-0baf-4496-ae8e-58781946c207@zaiboc.net>

On 26/02/2024 23:40, BillK wrote:
> So much of human life is a struggle for
> bodily survival and planning for future care and security. When this
> is removed and needs can be met instantly in a virtual environment,
> the uploads will find other tasks, and they can evolve their minds to
> tackle different challenges. Harming other uploaded minds should
> appear to be a pretty pointless activity.
>

One would hope.

You have to bear in mind, though, that there are people to whom some 
things are just 'wrong', and shouldn't be allowed to exist in anyone, 
anywhere, at any time. Things like certain thoughts and points of view 
(atheism or non-tolerated religious views, for instance, in the eyes of 
certain religious fundamentalists), or certain experiences (representing 
taboo sexual practices, for example). Given that there are people 
willing to sacrifice their lives in order to end the lives of people 
doing things they object to, I'm sure that when uploading becomes 
possible, there will be people willing to upload in order to do harm to 
other uploads for the same reasons.

To people of a certain mindset, it's far from pointless to harm other 
people who are doing (or thinking) things that are seen as objectionable.

It would be careless and silly to neglect this, and assume nobody wants 
to interfere with you (or destroy you) because you are an upload just 
minding your own business, not harming anyone else in any way.

Uploads will need defenses just as much as biological humans, probably 
more. Definitely more, I'd think, given the extra dimensions of threat 
that will exist (remember "The Singularity, ruined by lawyers"? 
https://youtu.be/IFe9wiDfb0E).

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240227/71cfac3f/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 11:07:11 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:07:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Baby_AGI=E2=80=99_could_be_a_reality_in?=
 =?utf-8?q?_early_2025?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armj4B=Mz4PC4=R6zcH-ufSfmrirhMUGNOf0jD5pwNB08pw@mail.gmail.com>

?Baby AGI? could be a reality in early 2025: SingularityNET founder
The ?complete toolset? to making the precursor to a fully functioning
Artificial General Intelligence might be only about a year away, says
Ben Goertzel.
Andrew Fenton    27 Feb 2024

<https://cointelegraph.com/news/artificial-general-intelligence-agi-prototype-early-2025-ben-goertzel>

Quotes:
An early prototype framework for Artificial General Intelligence could
be operating as early as next year, SingularityNET founder Ben
Goertzel believes.

Speaking at the opening of the Beneficial AGI Summit in Panama on Feb.
27, Goertzel ? who popularized the term AGI ? laid out a blueprint for
its development to ensure AGI isn?t controlled by corporations or
governments and will help humanity rather than harm it.
--------
While he says these benefits outweigh the risks, AGI could still go
wrong in a number of ways.

He outlined some of those risks in his address, including China and
the United States developing ?super AGI whose goal is to clobber the
other guy? or an unethical rollout of AGI that only benefits the
global elite and makes the poor even poorer.
------
?I also don?t think we can totally confidently rule out anything
because we?re going into fundamentally unknown territory,? he said.
-------------------------------

BillK
.


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 05:37:31 2024
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 06:37:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] My Beneficial AGI Summit 2024 pre-event online talk
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfiDAN82Bp7cj-aOpX7KDZz6JRHxaK_ngJiXOsQRDAyug@mail.gmail.com>

Watching the Beneficial AGI Summit 2024 (BGI24) online. Too bad I couldn't
be there in person. Here's the audio of my pre-event talk "The future of
AI: exploring consciousness & agency."
https://www.turingchurch.com/p/the-future-of-ai-exploring-consciousness
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/01036852/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 12:29:03 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:29:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
Message-ID: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>

The US, Israel, Ukraine and Russia are already using AI for target
selection for drones and bombs.
Final decision is still with human operators.
The next step will be when the military decide that this reaction time
is too slow and AI will decide itself when and what to attack.

<https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/us-admits-to-using-ai>
Quotes:
In a rare admission, Bloomberg reports that US military officials have
officially acknowledged using artificial intelligence (AI) on the
battlefield. According to Bloomberg?s report, the US has used AI to
identify and neutralize targets.

The existence of this capability is known, but this is the first time
that the US has publically admitted its use and in an exclusive
interview with Bloomberg, Schuyler Moore, the chief technology officer
for US Central Command in the Middle East, explained the extent to
which AI has been employed recently.
----------

<https://www.cryptopolitan.com/challenges-ai-warfare-to-global-security/>
Quotes:
In the wake of technological advancements and geopolitical tensions,
the emergence of autonomous weapons has become an unsettling reality.
Spearheaded by developments in artificial intelligence, nations are
racing to harness the potential of machines to make autonomous
decisions in combat scenarios.

The deployment of drones like the Saker Scout in Ukraine underscores
the evolving landscape of warfare, where machines are entrusted with
the power to identify and engage targets without human intervention.
Despite concerns over the ethical implications and potential
humanitarian crises, the allure of autonomous weapons persists as
military strategists explore new avenues for dominance on the
battlefield.
---------------

It looks like nations are planning a 'Kill or be killed' system for AI
weapon systems.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 12:44:09 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 06:44:09 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>

Y'know?  Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes
a mistake and kills civilians.  Maybe that will be the spur to quit the
damn things until we know a lot more than we do now.  Never mind that a
human makes the final decision - people make mistakes too.  I am assured by
history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready
for it.

Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll see.
 bill w

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 6:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The US, Israel, Ukraine and Russia are already using AI for target
> selection for drones and bombs.
> Final decision is still with human operators.
> The next step will be when the military decide that this reaction time
> is too slow and AI will decide itself when and what to attack.
>
> <https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/us-admits-to-using-ai>
> Quotes:
> In a rare admission, Bloomberg reports that US military officials have
> officially acknowledged using artificial intelligence (AI) on the
> battlefield. According to Bloomberg?s report, the US has used AI to
> identify and neutralize targets.
>
> The existence of this capability is known, but this is the first time
> that the US has publically admitted its use and in an exclusive
> interview with Bloomberg, Schuyler Moore, the chief technology officer
> for US Central Command in the Middle East, explained the extent to
> which AI has been employed recently.
> ----------
>
> <https://www.cryptopolitan.com/challenges-ai-warfare-to-global-security/>
> Quotes:
> In the wake of technological advancements and geopolitical tensions,
> the emergence of autonomous weapons has become an unsettling reality.
> Spearheaded by developments in artificial intelligence, nations are
> racing to harness the potential of machines to make autonomous
> decisions in combat scenarios.
>
> The deployment of drones like the Saker Scout in Ukraine underscores
> the evolving landscape of warfare, where machines are entrusted with
> the power to identify and engage targets without human intervention.
> Despite concerns over the ethical implications and potential
> humanitarian crises, the allure of autonomous weapons persists as
> military strategists explore new avenues for dominance on the
> battlefield.
> ---------------
>
> It looks like nations are planning a 'Kill or be killed' system for AI
> weapon systems.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/df5fcdb8/attachment.htm>

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 12:55:01 2024
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 05:55:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontmaWcGkUiKiSEB8g2kWpNtwPcjTOkvwaRVRxQJNwYzcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, we never want to wish evil on anyone, but as we progress in
everything, there will be unintended consequences.  All those unintended
consequences are also issues we need to solve, right?
Nobody will ever give up till all problems and issues are solved.




On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 5:45?AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Y'know?  Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes
> a mistake and kills civilians.  Maybe that will be the spur to quit the
> damn things until we know a lot more than we do now.  Never mind that a
> human makes the final decision - people make mistakes too.  I am assured by
> history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready
> for it.
>
> Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll see.
>  bill w
>
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 6:32?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The US, Israel, Ukraine and Russia are already using AI for target
>> selection for drones and bombs.
>> Final decision is still with human operators.
>> The next step will be when the military decide that this reaction time
>> is too slow and AI will decide itself when and what to attack.
>>
>> <https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/us-admits-to-using-ai>
>> Quotes:
>> In a rare admission, Bloomberg reports that US military officials have
>> officially acknowledged using artificial intelligence (AI) on the
>> battlefield. According to Bloomberg?s report, the US has used AI to
>> identify and neutralize targets.
>>
>> The existence of this capability is known, but this is the first time
>> that the US has publically admitted its use and in an exclusive
>> interview with Bloomberg, Schuyler Moore, the chief technology officer
>> for US Central Command in the Middle East, explained the extent to
>> which AI has been employed recently.
>> ----------
>>
>> <https://www.cryptopolitan.com/challenges-ai-warfare-to-global-security/>
>> Quotes:
>> In the wake of technological advancements and geopolitical tensions,
>> the emergence of autonomous weapons has become an unsettling reality.
>> Spearheaded by developments in artificial intelligence, nations are
>> racing to harness the potential of machines to make autonomous
>> decisions in combat scenarios.
>>
>> The deployment of drones like the Saker Scout in Ukraine underscores
>> the evolving landscape of warfare, where machines are entrusted with
>> the power to identify and engage targets without human intervention.
>> Despite concerns over the ethical implications and potential
>> humanitarian crises, the allure of autonomous weapons persists as
>> military strategists explore new avenues for dominance on the
>> battlefield.
>> ---------------
>>
>> It looks like nations are planning a 'Kill or be killed' system for AI
>> weapon systems.
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/c926bfc1/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 13:17:54 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:17:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhpyDR2e7TVZPmMnkAD=q88mrObkWLVP98kuLx48LwF2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 12:47, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Y'know?  Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes a mistake and kills civilians.  Maybe that will be the spur to quit the damn things until we know a lot more than we do now.  Never mind that a human makes the final decision - people make mistakes too.  I am assured by history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready for it.
>
> Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll see.   bill w
> _______________________________________________


In war, it is always far more civilians that die than soldiers.
Look at Gaza, Hiroshima, Dresden or the famines and deprivation that follow war.
I don't see that a few civilian deaths (collateral damage) will stop
the military deploying AI weaponry.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 14:10:32 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 08:10:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhpyDR2e7TVZPmMnkAD=q88mrObkWLVP98kuLx48LwF2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhpyDR2e7TVZPmMnkAD=q88mrObkWLVP98kuLx48LwF2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZJEZwyvrOHYcy-YurUtoL1oXvWANFu8J0uTg=3XQZKDA@mail.gmail.com>

Two different situations:  when collateral damage occurs and when the
damage was where the bombs were aimed.  Two - when there is collateral
damage an the bombs were NOT where they should have been exploded.  The
second one calls for vastly more consideration.   bill w

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 7:20?AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 12:47, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> > Y'know?  Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat
> makes a mistake and kills civilians.  Maybe that will be the spur to quit
> the damn things until we know a lot more than we do now.  Never mind that a
> human makes the final decision - people make mistakes too.  I am assured by
> history that military minds will rush new tech into use before we are ready
> for it.
> >
> > Maybe I don't actually wish it, but it WILL happen - and then we'll
> see.   bill w
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
> In war, it is always far more civilians that die than soldiers.
> Look at Gaza, Hiroshima, Dresden or the famines and deprivation that
> follow war.
> I don't see that a few civilian deaths (collateral damage) will stop
> the military deploying AI weaponry.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/91746794/attachment.htm>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 14:45:31 2024
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 06:45:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRSyn9farCHSQLJx6WxaRGkJpyNNENpdBtkHuXCGesmWA@mail.gmail.com>

This is not news.  People have been warning about that exact hypothetical
next step for decades, for so long as there has been any form of
computerized assistance to aiming.  It's been decades, and still the aiming
systems have yet to go to full autonomous trigger control.

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024, 4:31 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The US, Israel, Ukraine and Russia are already using AI for target
> selection for drones and bombs.
> Final decision is still with human operators.
> The next step will be when the military decide that this reaction time
> is too slow and AI will decide itself when and what to attack.
>
> <https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/us-admits-to-using-ai>
> Quotes:
> In a rare admission, Bloomberg reports that US military officials have
> officially acknowledged using artificial intelligence (AI) on the
> battlefield. According to Bloomberg?s report, the US has used AI to
> identify and neutralize targets.
>
> The existence of this capability is known, but this is the first time
> that the US has publically admitted its use and in an exclusive
> interview with Bloomberg, Schuyler Moore, the chief technology officer
> for US Central Command in the Middle East, explained the extent to
> which AI has been employed recently.
> ----------
>
> <https://www.cryptopolitan.com/challenges-ai-warfare-to-global-security/>
> Quotes:
> In the wake of technological advancements and geopolitical tensions,
> the emergence of autonomous weapons has become an unsettling reality.
> Spearheaded by developments in artificial intelligence, nations are
> racing to harness the potential of machines to make autonomous
> decisions in combat scenarios.
>
> The deployment of drones like the Saker Scout in Ukraine underscores
> the evolving landscape of warfare, where machines are entrusted with
> the power to identify and engage targets without human intervention.
> Despite concerns over the ethical implications and potential
> humanitarian crises, the allure of autonomous weapons persists as
> military strategists explore new avenues for dominance on the
> battlefield.
> ---------------
>
> It looks like nations are planning a 'Kill or be killed' system for AI
> weapon systems.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/2616ec98/attachment-0001.htm>

From tara at taramayastales.com  Thu Feb 29 16:07:24 2024
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 08:07:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <159B7E7D-E047-448A-A535-D94712AD1AE6@taramayastales.com>



> On Feb 29, 2024, at 4:44?AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Y'know?  Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes a mistake and kills civilians.  Maybe that will be the spur to quit the damn things until we know a lot more than we do now.  
> 


My prediction: It won't.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/62cae7af/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 16:14:59 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 10:14:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] AI Warfare Is Already Here
In-Reply-To: <159B7E7D-E047-448A-A535-D94712AD1AE6@taramayastales.com>
References: <CAL_armjMBeGxc1V-=CirCdskMK36h75vSFMy6jR=_P2sMgXo1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYda3mu=9GB+aE9oYVvt5WonNR8Fc=sVturnSq7BtmQ=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <159B7E7D-E047-448A-A535-D94712AD1AE6@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ492COn2JY43tVBtQq2dV8vK9Zu_OX6PUscuC+J2cWJQ@mail.gmail.com>

We have de jure civilian control of the military, but not de facto
control.   bill w

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 10:10?AM Tara Maya via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Feb 29, 2024, at 4:44?AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Y'know?  Here's an awful thought: I wish that an AI in actual combat makes
> a mistake and kills civilians.  Maybe that will be the spur to quit the
> damn things until we know a lot more than we do now.
>
>
>
> My prediction: It won't.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/72584370/attachment.htm>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 16:35:58 2024
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 10:35:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: a fantasy of spin
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZkA7BTfJtJ=UA97qNZNhiceOZpGva_zRqeQZsVqYp4oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZkA7BTfJtJ=UA97qNZNhiceOZpGva_zRqeQZsVqYp4oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb4=QgsfZ2susvBen01vy3R435fWahd_4Tg4D0LSjcDYw@mail.gmail.com>

Subject: a fantasy of spin


"Yes, your Holiness, I will try to explain my ideas through two stories:

Suppose a lord wanted to know, for no apparent reason, what the geometric
center of Italy is.  The problem is that on the North, NorthEast and NorthWest
the borders are uncertain, and do we include Sardinia and Sicily etc?  No.
So choosing which borders to use is entirely arbitrary.  We calculate
several different centers based on different borders. Best to pick one that
is near a big city (preferably near the lord if that is possible).

Now consider the solar system.  Your Holiness has declared that the Earth
is the center.  Then the planets and their motions are determined.  The
problem is that the geometry to do that is enormously complicated.  If, by
pure arbitrariness, we consider the Sun to be the center, then the geometry
is far easier.  Conversion from that to the Earth-centered geometry can be
done.

So the Sun being the center is just an arbitrary way of thinking to make
the geometry easier.  No one is saying, like in the case of the center of
Italy, that one version is true and the others false.  Earth as the center
is perfectly valid, as you have ruled."

Now what if we could go back in time and present Galileo these stories to
tell to the Pope?  Might they have worked to save him?  Who knows?  bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/17a7e712/attachment.htm>

From dsunley at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 16:48:25 2024
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 09:48:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: a fantasy of spin
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4=QgsfZ2susvBen01vy3R435fWahd_4Tg4D0LSjcDYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZkA7BTfJtJ=UA97qNZNhiceOZpGva_zRqeQZsVqYp4oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb4=QgsfZ2susvBen01vy3R435fWahd_4Tg4D0LSjcDYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkRHb0WsdWJZpQyreTYbjBOo7-kw5hRbBna=Qz490sFY9Q@mail.gmail.com>

It is a matter of historical record that Galileo was, to put it lightly, an
intransigent jerk who had no interest whatsoever in softening his message.
He was making a theological, not to mention intensely political statement,
and he knew he was doing this while he was doing it.

His house arrest came only at the end of long, involved, repeated
conversations with church officials, none of whom were stupid or
particularly dogmatic. These arguments are relatively trivial and I
guarantee you they were offered to Galileo repeatedly.

(Why American atheists insist on modeling the medieval Catholic church like
80 IQ rural Southern Baptist pastors is something I will never understand.
They were highly intelligent, deeply sophisticated, utterly ruthless
politicians of the first order. They understood the science perfectly fine,
and had no particular objections to it. But their real god was Church
Authority, and thats what Galileo was very intentionally attacking.)

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024, 9:38 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Subject: a fantasy of spin
>
>
> "Yes, your Holiness, I will try to explain my ideas through two stories:
>
> Suppose a lord wanted to know, for no apparent reason, what the geometric
> center of Italy is.  The problem is that on the North, NorthEast and NorthWest
> the borders are uncertain, and do we include Sardinia and Sicily etc?  No.
> So choosing which borders to use is entirely arbitrary.  We calculate
> several different centers based on different borders. Best to pick one that
> is near a big city (preferably near the lord if that is possible).
>
> Now consider the solar system.  Your Holiness has declared that the Earth
> is the center.  Then the planets and their motions are determined.  The
> problem is that the geometry to do that is enormously complicated.  If, by
> pure arbitrariness, we consider the Sun to be the center, then the geometry
> is far easier.  Conversion from that to the Earth-centered geometry can be
> done.
>
> So the Sun being the center is just an arbitrary way of thinking to make
> the geometry easier.  No one is saying, like in the case of the center of
> Italy, that one version is true and the others false.  Earth as the center
> is perfectly valid, as you have ruled."
>
> Now what if we could go back in time and present Galileo these stories to
> tell to the Pope?  Might they have worked to save him?  Who knows?  bill w
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/0d0ef657/attachment.htm>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 17:08:21 2024
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 17:08:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Are Self-driving cars good enough now?
Message-ID: <CAL_armipt8J7KK5C8B4vwiby74KJ3To_o-YHb1eth6C_tTEs4A@mail.gmail.com>

We Are All Bad Drivers
Anyone rooting against self-driving cars is cheering for tens of
thousands of deaths, year after year. We shouldn?t be burning
self-driving cars in the streets. We should be celebrating?
By Eric Newcomer     February 28, 2024

<https://www.thefp.com/p/we-are-all-bad-drivers>
Quote:
There was a time when I believed that self-driving cars should be held
to the standard of airplanes. Every mistake needed to be rigorously
understood and any human death was unforgivable. But my view has
evolved over time as human drivers have continued to kill tens of
thousands of people a year. We need a solution that?s meaningfully
better than human drivers, yes, but we shouldn?t wait for perfection
before we start getting dangerous human drivers off the streets.
----------------

Sounds good to me!

BillK


From postmowoods at gmail.com  Thu Feb 29 18:58:14 2024
From: postmowoods at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 11:58:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Are Self-driving cars good enough now?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armipt8J7KK5C8B4vwiby74KJ3To_o-YHb1eth6C_tTEs4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armipt8J7KK5C8B4vwiby74KJ3To_o-YHb1eth6C_tTEs4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACBESnBQHZhwS7oAicNjJTm26VLi2y-4Kac1q_yvQiw9+mmQbw@mail.gmail.com>

I've said exactly this for years. To make it happen though, there also
needs to be legislation that makes the burden of proof quite high for
a consumer to sue an autonomous car company for wrongful death or
injury. The actual transition will be sped along if insurance
companies get behind autonomous driving by appropriately lowering the
prices charged for an autonomous car and likewise increasing insurance
premiums for meat driven cars.

-Kelly

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 10:09?AM BillK via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> We Are All Bad Drivers
> Anyone rooting against self-driving cars is cheering for tens of
> thousands of deaths, year after year. We shouldn?t be burning
> self-driving cars in the streets. We should be celebrating?
> By Eric Newcomer     February 28, 2024
>
> <https://www.thefp.com/p/we-are-all-bad-drivers>
> Quote:
> There was a time when I believed that self-driving cars should be held
> to the standard of airplanes. Every mistake needed to be rigorously
> understood and any human death was unforgivable. But my view has
> evolved over time as human drivers have continued to kill tens of
> thousands of people a year. We need a solution that?s meaningfully
> better than human drivers, yes, but we shouldn?t wait for perfection
> before we start getting dangerous human drivers off the streets.
> ----------------
>
> Sounds good to me!
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Feb 29 21:00:21 2024
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 21:00:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] uploads etc.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.57.1708990806.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.57.1708990806.1312.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <33cea3b8-452f-4b4b-9a31-efc2f2d4af3a@zaiboc.net>

On 26/02/2024 23:40, Bill W wrote:
> Suppose two uploads were in the same room.? How would they read each 
> other like people read body language and facial expressions?

In exactly the same way.

> Here's an idea from?Consider Phlebas - Banks -
> In that book the AI drones have lights, such as green, red, etc. to 
> communicate?moods and such.
> Could they in addition have tones of voice?? Of course.? What else?? ? 
> bill w

I'm not sure why uploads would need anything extra over what biological 
humans use for communication. As they will have virtual bodies and 
analogues of biological senses like sight and hearing, projecting and 
receiving body language would be pretty similar, I'd think. Of course, 
they'd have more control over their bodies than biological humans do 
(and potentially greater sensual acuity), so there'd probably be extra 
scope for body language signals than we have. In any case, no need for 
anything extra (not to say there'd be no desire for something extra, but 
that would develop over time, I should think). They would be able to 
read each other just like we do.

The Drones in Iain M Banks' novels only use such crude methods because 
they don't have the same anatomy that humans do (not sure why, but 
that's another issue). Uploads would be able to present any appearance 
they like, including fully original-human. As people get more 
adventurous and adopt more outlandish forms, then perhaps new body 
language signals would need to be developed.

At some point, I'd expect new metalanguage would develop, and people 
would then maybe exchange digital packages conveying nuances of meaning 
that go way beyond what we are used to.

Ben
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20240229/a7959b99/attachment.htm>