[extropy-chat] Europe vs America (was Depressing thought....)

[Samantha Atkins]

On Wednesday 12 November 2003 04:25, JDP wrote:
> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 a écrit (12.11.2003/08:22) :
> > I definitely do not want to say to the weak "find a way to make yourself
> > useful or die" because it is a disgusting thing to say to a conscious
> > being.
>
> Yes, this is why I phrased it in that way, to make its disgusting
> character obvious.
>

How much of it is nearly a truism though?  Perhaps it should be rephrased, 
"Find a way to be useful or find a patron or find a way to coerce or cajole 
others to support you."    The latter includes making it relatively 
unthinkable that anyone would choose not to support you or that they would be 
allowed not to.    I am not in the least a hard-hearted person, if anything I 
err far too much toward the other end of the scale.   But, it is a legitimate 
question whether we are willing, should be willing and/or should be coerced 
into supporting more and more people indefinitely who cannot support 
themselves.   It is not a sign of how civilized we are that the question can 
barely be addressed without raising a lot of emotional flak.    

If we are to support a possibly growing segment of those who cannot support 
themselves should there be any limits on the level of that support or on the 
reproduction of those who are in that segment (assuming some partially 
genetic aspects of intelligence and so on) or own their franchise?   As the 
world becomes increasingly technologically complex and its issues become more 
complex should there be any tests of competence required to exercise the 
right to vote?  As we become more augmented and divergent from common human 
stock what should we do for those who choose not to follow this path and 
become increasingly less able to compete?   Should we offer some level of 
augmentation to all?     I would tend to that position if it is at all 
possible without too much restraint on forward progress on both humanitarian 
grounds and because it is likely to increase the pace of progress.   

I see very much the point of enabling those born to poorer circumstances a 
chance to develop, progress and participate fully.   But I am not sure I see 
the point of forced carrying of dead weight indefinitely and with the 
individuals in that category able to vote themselves continued increases in 
largesse and often standing continually in the way of actual human 
advancement.    


> > I know many "weak" people who would not make it in the hypercompetitive
> > society that you seem to advocate,
> > -snip
>
> Not at all what I meant nor advocate. In fact, in the last sentence of
> my paragraph that you quoted below, I said I found it reasonable to be
> apalled that anyone should work hard the whole day just to sustain
> themselves.
>

What "whole day"?  In France the law says, if they haven't changed it again, 
that it is only legal to work 35 hours a week.   Subsistence should not be 
too hard to come by in a reasonably affluent society.  But we must beware of 
breeding too large a burden on our societies.  Germany is even now struggling 
to lower its mounting social debts also.  Historically there have been cycles 
of charity, self-insurance, poor laws, increasing welfare states, large 
defictis, cuts of benefits.   It is not a new problem.  

> No, what I meant (and I think, said), is that putting the pressure of
> liberty-responsability on individuals begets collective prosperity.
> It's as simple as that. So you have to make your choices taking this
> into account.
>
> From an extropian perspective, I think at this point we can still use
> a lot of that competition-induced creativity. Hopefully when we have
> extreme life extension we can relax a bit (and we aren't too busy with
> defense).
>

Cooperation also has strong extropian benefits.  We should not become so 
competitive that we undercut one another or do not share and create commons 
where that is the best way of moving forward.    Competition need not be the 
catch-all or only strategy or be cutthroat. 

- samantha