[extropy-chat] The Consensus

[Dirk Bruere]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "Dirk Bruere" <dirk at neopax.com>; "ExI chat list"
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Consensus


> WARNING: Dirk opened the season here. The discussion will herafter
> involve discussion of guns, self defense, and nasty things like rights.
> So those of you with sensitive ears, emotions, or constitutions who
> think guns, rights, or defending ones-self are 'icky' issues, please do
> not read further...
>
> --- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "R.Coyote" <etheric at comcast.net>> >
> > > Home occupiers = apparently not out and about town,  at work ect.
> > > all rights of self defense implicitly  waved once you step out the
> > > door. right of self defense waved for right of travel
> > >
> > > no thanks
> >
> > So where does it say that?
> > The manifesto covers points that differ from existing law.
> > Under existing law the right of self defence exists using 'reasonable
> > force'.
> > Or are you some US gun nut who thinks being tapped on the shoulder by
> > a beggar is an assault that can or should be met with automatic fire
> > from the assault rifle you habitually carry?
>
> Okay, you asked for it...
> Considering that 'reasonable force' in Britain, under present law,
> extends no further than yelling loudly for help (and there is debate
> over even allowing that, noise ordinances and all that rot) as you are
> getting mugged by a fellow with an illegal gun who doesn't give a sod
> about either the law or your right to self defense.

Not true.
There have been a number of cases where a home owner has killed a burglar
and it has been ruled as a lawful use of force.
This includes the case of a man who woke up in the night to find someone at
his bed, and in the dark stabbed that person to death with a knife he kept
by the bedside.

It does *not* include Tony Martin who shot dead a fleeing burglar by
shooting him in the back.

> In fact, a number of individuals in Britain who have defended
> themselves have not only spent time in prison for doing so (even when
> their attackers were career criminals), but have been sued to the poor
> house by their attackers for injuring them while they were conducting
> their customary means of employment (i.e being a criminal). Families of
> criminals killed in the act have sued their victims as well.

It's not a simple as you assume.

> Law abiding British serfs going about their business have been
> convicted in Britain for illegal posession of a weapon for having any
> one of the following on their persons: knitting needle, pen, pen-knife,
> butter knife, wrench, screwdriver, letter opener, bottle of binaca,
> mace, pepper spray, taser, pencil, metal tipped cane, and even a water

Depends on the context.

> pistol. There is no such thing as 'reasonable force' permitted in
> Britain.

Untrue.

Dirk

The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
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