[extropy-chat] ENOUGH already

[Matus]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Harvey Newstrom
> 
> Matus wrote,
> > Are you claiming, absolutely, that not only have all wars
> > that have ever occurred but all wars that could possibly
> > occur are definitely anti-extropic?  Quite a strong assertion.
> 
> Actually, your argument against this statement seems to be the strong
> assertion.

My statement that sometimes war may be extropic is a strong assertion?
How so?  Seems like that absolute that war is *always* anti-extropic is
the strong assertion, since it requires not only a clear definition of
extropic but one of war as well.

Referring back to my discussion with Charlie, I said as much

"To positively assert whether something was extropic or not, you will
have to define what criteria makes something extropic, and how much of
it was present before and how much present afterward. This would
probably be quite an undertaking, yet you are all ready absolutely
positive that *all* wars are anti-extropic."

In that same conversation, Charlie said:

> I'll grant you that it's necessary to address the problem of
> anti-extropic ideologies, and in some cases their proponents will not
> listen to reason. But ...

What do we do when their proponents will not listen to reason?  

To suggest that war is *always* anti-extropic requires one to prove that
each and every possible war scenario definitely results in a net
decrease in extropic memes (net?  Perhaps not, since one small pocket of
extropic thought might bring about a singularity, yet another question
the arises when making such sweeping absolutes)  To suggest, as I did,
that maybe some wars are indeed extropic requires me to present merely
one single example of a war that would reasonably be considered
extropic.  To do this, and prove it to you, Charlie, and Paul would
likely require a lengthy discussion just to define extropic and to
define war.  But are you so sure that ANY possible war is definitely NOT
extropic?

> 
> Why can't we just allow the general statement that "war is bad"?  It
does
> not seem to be such an unreasonable assertion.

Because some statements can be so general that they are meaningless.
Why not run around with a 'make love not war' shirt while were at it.
The real world is not simple and general, it is complex and violent.  If
you wanted to try to convince Hitler and Stalin that War was bad, I'm
all for it, but once tanks start rolling over us, I'm defending myself.
We could say that 'killing is bad' as well, but in saying that am I
giving up my right to self defense?  

> 
> > A more reasonable question (if one can call such questions
> > reasonable) would be how many lives are worth an increase in
> > extropy, and how much of an increase?
> 
> No we can not call such questions reasonable.  I don't know why it
keeps
> coming up on this list.

Yet if one is to assert that all wars are anti-extropic, then this is a
question that MUST be answered before making that determination.  All
wars include loss of life.  How extropic is a single life?  What do we
mean when we say 'extropic' in the first place?

> 
> > Debates of that sort have been tossed around on this list
> > all ready.
> 
> It almost seems as if there is a subgroup of people who keep trying to
> justify committing violence as part of the extropian agenda.
> 

And it seems that there is a subgroup of people content to let us be
overrun by murderous oppressive regimes for fear of taking a single like
to defend our very extropic (thought not extropic enough) society.

Would you assert that in absolutely *NO* cases would committing violence
be extropian?

Yes, War is bad, and killing is also bad.  So is lying, stealing,
cheating, etc.  But the real world is cold, complex, and unforgiving,
and sometimes things must be done that we prefer not to do in order to
ensure the continuation of the things we value.  I may steal bread to
feed my starving self or family, I may lie to protect the feelings of
someone I care about, I may kill someone in self defense, and my country
may go to war when threatened by a clearly and significantly less
extropic, less free, murderous and oppressive government.  

Michael Dickey