[extropy-chat] ENOUGH already

[Matus]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Paul Grant
>
>
> > As u can see, I have to agree with Charlie :)
> >
> 
> >I think you should refer to the rest of the discussion.  Are you
> claiming, absolutely, that not only have all wars that have ever
> occurred but all wars that could possibly occur are definitely
> anti-extropic?  Quite a strong assertion.  This of course requires you
> to define extropic exactly, and war exactly.  My point, as was evident
> from the discussion was that whether war is extropic is a much more
> complicated question.  In that discussion Charlie even presented an
> example of overthrowing the US government to get rid of the drug laws.
> 
> -To me, war is a question of relevance;  are they (whoever) really
> relevant to your own extropic efforts?

So, do you disagree with the statement then that in all possible cases
all wars are definitely anti-extropic?  And would you thus agree that
under certain relevant circumstances some may be?

> 
> Besides, really, think about it... wouldn't you rather bring your
> aggressor to your viewpoints of things
> and have him join his resources to yours, as opposed to beating him,

Those who do not subscribe to reason can not be conquered by it, as I
said to Charlie when he made this same point.  What do you do when your
enemy can not be enlightened?  What would you do when you can not
convince an armed assailant that he shouldn’t be holding you up or about
to murder a loved one?  Of course I would prefer my enemy to 'see the
light' but I am not so naïve to think that everyone always will.  There
is way too much pain and suffering all ready occurring to believe as
such.

 and
> then spending all that effort
> to keep "unruly" portions of your population in line?  And no matter
> what anyone says, if extropians succeed
> in their quest, it will be something worth its weight in gold (read:
of
> intrinsic value to anyone alive)

If one person stood in the way of a singularity, and you could not
convince him through reason to let a singularity occur, what would you
do?

When members of this list continue to extol the virtues of extropianism
while at the same time deriding violence or spreading extropy through
any means other than polite conversation, it should come of no surprise
that the logical conclusions of these two statements occur as difficult
ethical questions.

> 
> >My example of a less extropic government being overthrown by a more
> extropic one was merely a quick example, it was not meant to imply
that
> ANY more extropic government had the right to overthrow any less
> extropic one no matter the cost in lives or property.  That is of
course
> ridiculous.
> 
> Well it's a direct consequence of your statement :) I only extended it
> to illustrate it.  

I hoped that the apparent relevance of 'less extropic' and 'more
extropic' would be obvious, and that the statement would not be taken so
literally.  I would not endorse one society that merely taxes computer
purchases being overthrown, quite violently, by a nearly identical group
whose only difference is that they would not tax computers.  

> >A more reasonable question (if one can call such questions
> reasonable) would be how many lives are worth an increase in extropy,
> and how much of an increase?  Debates of that sort have been tossed
> around on this list all ready.
> 
> No doubt. I dunno, what do you think? Do you think extropy is measured
> in number of human lives?
> Personally I tend to think of it as a codified survivor instinct
without
> regard to any of the current
> mental/spiritual/economic/political blocks in place :)
> 

Certainly not, as I said in the discussion with Charlie, I attempted to
start a thread suggesting we clearly define extropic goals, of course
many are all ready listed on extropy sites principles page.  A million
survivor watching automaton couch potatoes are not extropic at all
compared to a handful of productive motivated scientists, so # of lives
is not the only extropic consideration.


> >I also noted in that discussion that freedoms are not directly
> synonymous with extropy, as the freedom to sit on ones ass all day and
> watch TV isn't gonna bring about a singularity, nor would being
stoned,
> drunk, or visiting strip clubs all day, nor chattering on discussion
> board for that matter.  In fact a paternalistic big brother esque
> society where each person was assigned an area of technological
pursuit
> and had immortality and extropianism drilled into their head from the
> time they were children would probably be the most 'extropic' yet it
> would not be very free.
> 
> I would agree with that sentiment (not the big brother), but that
> freedom and extropy need not be irrevocably related...  I would
suggest
> though, that life without freedom (and health) would lose its flavor
> rather quickly,
> so perhaps it is highly correlated...

Certainly, and I highly value both freedom AND extropy!

Michael Dickey