[extropy-chat] ENOUGH already

[Paul Grant]

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Matus
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:03 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] ENOUGH already




> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- 
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Paul Grant
>
> Charlie Stross said:
> 
> > I'd like to add to that: war seems to me to be about as
anti-extropic
> > as you can get. The triumph of brute force over enlightenment, 
> > destruction, death and despair on a massive scale. An excuse for the

> > enemies of freedom on every side to chip away at civil rights. The 
> > ascendency of dehumanization is the *opposite* of transhumanism.
> 
> I would like to disagree with that.  War is neither intrinsically 
> extropic nor anti-extropic.  If one of the parties at war is less 
> extropic, and it wins, then war is anti-extropic.
> 
> - careful their kimo sabe, thats a dangerous line your walking; put 
> another way, if you will grant me, a small society that is 
> "extropic".. which by definition, leads a less "extropic" society 
> comprised of the majority.  So when does the bloody revolution start, 
> comrade? :)  Direct consequence of your statements, you understand.
> 
> As u can see, I have to agree with Charlie :)
> 

>I think you should refer to the rest of the discussion.  Are you
claiming, absolutely, that not only have all wars that have ever
occurred but all wars that could possibly occur are definitely
anti-extropic?  Quite a strong assertion.  This of course requires you
to define extropic exactly, and war exactly.  My point, as was evident
from the discussion was that whether war is extropic is a much more
complicated question.  In that discussion Charlie even presented an
example of overthrowing the US government to get rid of the drug laws. 

-To me, war is a question of relevance;  are they (whoever) really
relevant to your own extropic efforts?
As it is, the US gov. has little no effect on my own pursuits... so
would war (with all its sapping
efforts) be necessary?  Mind you, I'm not partial to a lot of the laws
that are currently in effect,
but thankfully, most of said laws are not being enforced... so what
would be the point?  I'ld much
rather save my efforts for something more constructive.  Its a question
of costs, more than anything else.
And war imho, raises the costs of peace-time pursuits disproportionate
to the benefits of said overthrow.

Besides, really, think about it... wouldn't you rather bring your
aggressor to your viewpoints of things
and have him join his resources to yours, as opposed to beating him, and
then spending all that effort
to keep "unruly" portions of your population in line?  And no matter
what anyone says, if extropians succeed
in their quest, it will be something worth its weight in gold (read: of
intrinsic value to anyone alive).

>My example of a less extropic government being overthrown by a more
extropic one was merely a quick example, it was not meant to imply that
ANY more extropic government had the right to overthrow any less
extropic one no matter the cost in lives or property.  That is of course
ridiculous.  

Well it's a direct consequence of your statement :) I only extended it
to illustrate it.  I think it defines (embodies) a rather nice specifity
to the term "enlightened".  Kind of like a self-reinforcing pattern.

>A more reasonable question (if one can call such questions
reasonable) would be how many lives are worth an increase in extropy, 
and how much of an increase?  Debates of that sort have been tossed 
around on this list all ready. 

No doubt. I dunno, what do you think? Do you think extropy is measured
in number of human lives?
Personally I tend to think of it as a codified survivor instinct without
regard to any of the current
mental/spiritual/economic/political blocks in place :)

>I also noted in that discussion that freedoms are not directly
synonymous with extropy, as the freedom to sit on ones ass all day and
watch TV isn't gonna bring about a singularity, nor would being stoned,
drunk, or visiting strip clubs all day, nor chattering on discussion
board for that matter.  In fact a paternalistic big brother esque
society where each person was assigned an area of technological pursuit
and had immortality and extropianism drilled into their head from the
time they were children would probably be the most 'extropic' yet it
would not be very free.

I would agree with that sentiment (not the big brother), but that
freedom and extropy need not be irrevocably related...  I would suggest
though, that life without freedom (and health) would lose its flavor
rather quickly,
so perhaps it is highly correlated...

Some interesting questions :)

omard-out

Michael Dickey


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