Israel and Palestine was RE: [extropy-chat] ENOUGH already

[Paul Grant]

Whew, this is a long one, you are forewarned.
Also, one more volley, and then close the discussion.
I'll leave it up to you to rebutt, as you see fit.

omard-out


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Matus
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:07 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: Israel and Palestine was RE: [extropy-chat] ENOUGH already




> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- 
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Paul Grant
> > The Palestinians, having been deprived of statehood by force, are
not
> > and cannot be a "high contracting party".
> >
> 
> When did the Palestinians ever have a state to begin with?  Egypt nor 
> any other Arab country didn't see fit to give em one.
> 
> => Why not have the US open its borders and give them New Jersey,
while
> you're at it, if you are so eager to condemn Arab nations for refusing

> to take in an ENTIRE populace (I would have said country, but i had a 
> feeling you would object) of refugees.  Incidentally, they were living

> SOMEWHERE prior to the formation and establishment of Israel as it 
> currently stands.

Yes, in Egypt, where there were no cries for a 'Palestinian state'
Apparently they were perfectly content to live in a corrupt Arab sate.
Had the Arab nations not tried to 'Drive the jews into the sea' the
Palestinian people would still be living in Egypt

--
2=>I find that assertion very amusing since the Palestinians were 
turned away when they sought refuge in Egypt.  Notice the lack
of term THROWN OUT.  Turned away implies that they were NOT
living in egypt at the time, or prior.
 
> Lets not forget to add to this discussion that Arafat wants to be an 
> Arab dictator of his own (why not, all other Arab countries are ruled
by
> oppressive theocrats and dictators, obvious exception of Iraq now, why

> cant he have one!)
> 
> => Last I checked, when the US attempted to have him replaced, they 
> found him to be impossible to remove because of popular support for
him.

Sure, and saddam had popular support amongst the Baath party.  

2=> Ahem; his popular support was a 99% landslide victory during
a presidential election.  This fact was openly mocked prior to
the US invasion of Iraq; Guess who else was elected by a 99% majority.
Thats right, MUBARAK.  Incidentally, no-one likes to have foreign powers
invade their shores.  I bet you, 10-1 that most of the support right now
is stemming from the feeling that the U.S. populace is setting up
yet another mid-east puppet regime (TAMEPR), or planning on setting up
shop permanently.

Its easy to have popular support when you drill into everyone's head
that the problem lies with someone else, and not your own corrupt
murderous leadership.  

2=> I REALLY suggest you get out to the middle-east if you believe that
nobody there acknowledges Saddam and others like him are corrupt.  The
problem you see, is that no-one is free to say it.  Any revolts are
crushed mercilessly, with US sold weapons.  Are we *beginning* to see
the problem yet?

Anytime any peace plan mentions 'democracy' along with a Palestinian
state Arafat will have nothing to do with it.  

2=>Perhaps.  Or perhaps the offer sucks ass.

> Incidentally, both Iraq and Egypt (both US-backed) have presidents who

> are "elected" but DO NOT have popular support.  I might even go 
> further to add that Israel, a US-backed "democracy" currently has a
> large population that is living in the equivalent of interment camps.

Yet Arabs living in Israel enjoy more rights than they do in any Arab
state.  

2=> You're on crack.  Border check points, 6 out of 7 day full-day
curfews? 2 hours
to shop every sunday.  Yeah, I'm sure its a paradise.

Which is no doubt why there is a movement among Palestinians to simply
be part of the state of Israel.  

2=> Just out of curiousity, what percentage of the palestinians
currently support that proposition?
And under what terms would they be reintegrated back into society?

> That Arafat and the PA enforce by brutal methods that no Muslim should

> ever live under the rule of a Jew, => I agree with his assement.  It 
> should be a true democracy comprised of both Jews and Palestinians.

Certainly!  And many jews and people from Israel would agree with that
as well.  Its Arafat and the PA that would rather die than live under
Jewish rule, and they'll enforce that with whatever violence is
necessary on the people they control.  But again, Arafat will have
nothing to do with democracy.

=> So what you're saying is that Arafat and the PLA are the real
problem; they're the one's keeping the Palestinians in  Hebron under
lock and key.  They're the ones building walls, raising buildings,
shooting kids. HMMM.


> and use brainwashing children to turn them into bombs to accomplish
this
> goal.
> =>Ah the marvels of propoganda :) Denigrate the oppositions 
> thinking-capability. Perhaps the children are seeing more clearly what

> is occurring than
the
> eyes
> of the west?  I mean, they do live in that situation 24-7; its not
like
> the media
> has a chance to squash the stories that comprise their lives.

Again, Arafat and the PA oppose in plan to live peacefully under Jewish
rule

2=> yeah, and so what? how does that address the point I made?

leaders who try to compromise get no co-operation from Arafat.
Propoganda?  The facts speak for themselves, Arafat will see no arab
live under jewish rule, and would rather seem them dead.

2=> I'ld see no arab live under jewish rule.  And I don't really care
about Jews.  
When its a democracy, there is no-one ruling.  Thats the point.  If
you'ld care
to replace your oft-repeated phrase "Jewish rule" with "democracy which
happens
to have a bunch of Jews in it", then I'ld be more inclined to see his
viewpoint
as irrational.

> Witness the Palestinian people who desire to live under Israel but are

> attacked by the PA. => Provide some links please :) I'm always willing

> to learn something new in the course of a discussion.

As am I.  

2=> Fair enough :)

----------- start
Israel or the Palestinians? Making the moral Choice -
http://www.rationalview.homestead.com/files/Choosing_Life_or_Death_in_th
e_Middle_East.htm

2=> This essay is crap, no offense.

"Arab world's animosity toward individual rights and adherence to
religious dogma...
Does such liberty extend across the border into neighboring Egypt, whose
constitution is shaped by Islamic jurisprudence".... 

Their is no islamic court in egypt at this point (although man wish
their was); they are using the 
french system of law (Napoleonic code).  And even if there was an
islamic court, it cannot,
according to the sharia (islamic code of law), cannot be applied to
non-muslims.  They are tried
under court systems set up under their code of laws.

"But the cultural divide between Israel and its neighbors runs deeper
than one or two freedoms. The fundamental difference lies in Israeli's
general respect for man's life and the Palestinians' virtual worship of
death¾ a difference Muslim leaders loudly proclaim."

This is so biased its not even funny;  every muslim I know wants to
live, particularly if they have children;
the difference (which is so foreign to westerners), is that muslims
adhere to the concept that this world
is nothing in comparison to the afterlife, and that defending oneself
and one's faith against attack is
justified.  Muslims do not worship death, but accept that at some point,
under a careful set of guidelines, 
it may be necessary.  In fact, I was just told a hadith by my mother
(who is muslim, I am not) in which prophet
Mohammed instructed one of his followers (in the early days of islam),
who was being tortured to recant Islam,
to just say what the men wanted to hear; that it was better to live,
than to die needlessly.

"Similarly glorifying violent death was the Chief Mufti (religious
leader) of the PA Police: "From the moment his [a martyr's]
blood
spills, he feels no pain and he is absolved of all his sins; he sees his
seat in heaven
he is married to [70] black eyed [women]
."

You want glorifying death, try Hollywood.  Yes, if you die in Jihad
(defense of the faith), you go to heaven.
HOWEVER, who's to say you were in a valid jihad?  Its not like anyone of
the street can proclaim jihad.  There
are very specific rules regarding when, how and why a jihad can be
declared.  Much more constraining, incidentally
than the christians version of the chrusade, or an Israeli's belief in
Zionism.

"Imagine a Palestinian press that repeatedly touts dying for Allah.
Imagine a mother expected to express jubilation upon learning of her
child's "martyrdom." Imagine a father responding to his son's
suicide-bombing death with: "I call upon all Palestinian youth to follow
in his footsteps."

Imagine the sheer amount of abuse that would force a people to that
breaking point?

"Such is the level of irrationality and hatred that Israel's forced to
contend with."

Oh, they're not irrational, JUST VERY MOTIVATED.  And this is a tell if
I've ever seen one.
Whenever anyone devolves the opposite side into "irrationality", its
usually a sign of crappy
analysis.  Everyone does something for a reason; you may not agree with
their logic, but that
does not entail that it is irrational.

Next article :)
----------------------------------------------------
Libertarians who Loathe Isreal -
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34057

"With a respectable per capita GDP of roughly $17,500, compared to the
Palestinian Authority's $1,000, Israel apparently has nothing to
recommend her."

Kind of hard to build an economy when people are severely curtailing
your freedoms....
Why not do a realistic comparison, what was the per capita income in the
Jewish ghettos 
in WW2?

"The PA, on the other hand – with no economy, no free speech and press,
no independent courts, no sound contract laws, and no individual or
property rights – wins the sympathies of legions of freedom lovers hands
down."

Last I checked, the PA is not a state.

"That hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid have done nothing
to change this bleak reality bothers anti-Israel libertarians only in so
far as to point out that Israel is to blame."

Foreign aid will only feed people if there is no stability with which to
invest it in.  Money makes money ONLY when it can be put to work.

"Consider the Israeli fence now inspiring hyperbolic hysteria among
libertarians. What can a leadership do to stop its people from being
blown up in the streets as they go about their daily lives?"

Concede.

"Israel began erecting a security fence along the West Bank. Yet a
mechanical barrier is construed by the gifted libertarian writer, Justin
Raimondo, as "an act of aggression ... a land grab of huge proportions
.." What most reasonable people would view as a desperate defensive
measure is to Raimondo a symbol of Israeli sadism"

Go talk to the Palestinians who lost their houses and plots of land when
the army came through telling them a wall
was being built.  Yes, they covered that on the news as well.
Incidentally, whoever thought of building the wall 
was a naive fool.

"As much as libertarians hate them, Israelis, at least, defend what they
perceive to be their land, their homes and their freedoms."

Yeah, by oppressing others sans cause or trial.  Hmm, I wonder why
Libertarians would dislike Israel?

ANYWAY, this article is irrelevant because it doesn't deal with
Palistinians wanting to live in Israel.
------------
Why Arabs Love Israel - 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31947

"...If conditions for Arabs are so bad in Israel, why is the Arab
population exploding -- and I don't mean because of suicide bombers? Why
do Arabs continue to flock to the tiny Jewish state from virtually every
Arab and Muslim land in the world? In 1949, the Arab population of
Israel was about 160,000. Today, it is over 1.2 million."

Personally I think he's right; Arab states in their current generation
are run by dictators.
EVERY Egyptian I know wants to get out of Egypt; they love their
country, they can't stand
the people running it.  I'm sure Israel is one of many destinations.
They also go to Canada,
US, Australia, New Zealand, Venezuela, and many other countries.
Basically ANYWHERE, but
where they're from.  Anyone that will take them.

----------------

Be sure to check out Mark Humprhy's excellent page
http://humphrys.humanists.net/judaism.html#israel
--

"The Islamic world does not hate Israel because they care about the
human rights of the Palestinians. If they cared about human rights they
would have human rights in their own countries. The Islamic world hates
Israel because, well, essentially because they are Jews."

Load of horseshit.  Trust me, if the demonstrations weren't crushed
pretty violently, Egypt would be a MUCH better place.  Same with other
Arab states.  And trust me, nobody gives a shit about Jews.  They've got
far more important
things like trying to find jobs, support families etc on REALLY shitty
wages.

--- this one will take some time to digest, many links all over the
place. 
Should prove VERY interesting reading :)  Thanks.

----------------
The most criticized societies in the world will be the least criminal
societies - http://humphrys.humanists.net/laws.html#no.1

--Heh, just because you're not printing it doesn't mean everyone doesn't
know it.
I do see his point, and to a certain degree he's right.  Of course, that
all
depends on a free society with a reasonable press committed to
objectively reporting
the truth.  Sadly the US has strayed pretty far from that model.
----------------

Palestinians are still brainwashed and coerced by Arafat and his
despotic PLO regime into blaming Israel for everything and convincing
them to kill as many Israel children as possible.  Arafat is the
dictator of the Palestinian Authority in everyway but in official title,
Palestinians live in constant fear of Arafat's corrupt 'police' force,
laws prohibiting free speech are enforced brutally.  

For example, Mayor Zuhir Hamden publicly stated his villagers live not
under Arafat but Under Israel, he was subsequently shot five times.  Do
you think he was shot by Israel troops?

--
I dunno, was he?  I mean, there are so many others who are shot by
Israeli troops...

------------------
"Zuhair Hamdan, founder of the Movement for Coexistence in Jerusalem,
was sitting on a chair outside his corner shop near Bethlehem in
November when an official Palestinian Authority car drew up with a
squeal of brakes. From the back window a gunman, who Mr. Hamdan says was
a member of the gang, emptied 12 bullets from a M-16 rifle, hitting him
five times in the abdomen, legs and neck."

"Palestinians who live near the church described the group as a criminal
gang that preyed especially on Palestinian Christians, demanding
"protection money" from the main businesses, which make and sell
religious artifacts".

Seems like they're like any criminal gang once they get their hooks into
a group of people.
I'ld recommend the Palestinians considering arming themselves, but I
don't know if Israel
would let them carry around weapons.  Its a shame that right to defend
oneself leaves ones
defenseless to the criminals.  I wonder if this situation would exist in
a state that explicitly
gave its citizens the right to bear arms.  Perhaps the Palestinians will
put that into
their constitution, when they win back their freedom.

from - http://www.likud.nl/extr200.html

--------------------
see also - http://www.likud.nl/extr.html
Palestinian and Arab extremism

Another complex one with many links.  I will read it with an open mind.

--------------------- 
> "End the unjust Jewish occupation of Arab land!" 
> http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/tshirts/muslim_land.jpg
> => Hmm.. Unjust, Jewish-occupied, Arab land... hmmmm. Where's the 
> problem with that statement?

The irony is in the picture.  The Jewish state and its 'illegal
occupation' are not even visible in the sea of corrupt murderous Arab
states.  

=> Perhaps the Palestinians would do a better job of it, who knows, they
haven't been given the chance for 50 years.
On a personal note, I'ld love to see the US get the hell out of the
middle east, develop some nice clean energy sources, and just leave that
entire region alone.
 
> The worst villain in the Palestine Israel conflict is the noble peace 
> prize winning murderous terrorist Arafat. => I note, Sharon "the 
> Butcher" hasn't gotten any kudos over his
reign.
> 

The irony is again lost on you.  Arafat, as a known murderous terrorist,
received a noble peace prize.  

=> We prefer "freedom-fighter".  Its not so bad when use the other sides
terminology, eh?

So did a murderous North Vietnamese communist general.  The noble peace
prize is dolled out by leftist west hating intellectuals. 

=> Perhaps so, I wouldn't know - I don't pay attention to the noble
peace prize, just the science stuff.
Certes, if I had to weigh Sharon vs Arafat, I think they'ld both come
out with blood on their hands.

 
Michael Dickey


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