Israel and Palestine was RE: [extropy-chat] ENOUGH already

[Matus]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Paul Grant
> > The Palestinians, having been deprived of statehood by force, are
not
> > and cannot be a "high contracting party".
> >
> 
> When did the Palestinians ever have a state to begin with?  Egypt nor
> any other Arab country didn't see fit to give em one.
> 
> => Why not have the US open its borders and give them New Jersey,
while
> you're at it, if you are so eager to condemn Arab nations for refusing
> to take in an ENTIRE populace (I would have said country, but i had a
> feeling you would object) of refugees.  Incidentally, they were living
> SOMEWHERE prior to the formation and establishment of Israel as it
> currently stands.

Yes, in Egypt, where there were no cries for a 'Palestinian state'
Apparently they were perfectly content to live in a corrupt Arab sate.
Had the Arab nations not tried to 'Drive the jews into the sea' the
Palestinian people would still be living in Egypt

> 
> Lets not forget to add to this discussion that Arafat wants to be an
> Arab dictator of his own (why not, all other Arab countries are ruled
by
> oppressive theocrats and dictators, obvious exception of Iraq now, why
> cant he have one!)
> 
> => Last I checked, when the US attempted to have him replaced, they
> found him to be impossible to remove because of popular support for
him.

Sure, and saddam had popular support amongst the Baath party.  Its easy
to have popular support when you drill into everyone's head that the
problem lies with someone else, and not your own corrupt murderous
leadership.  Anytime any peace plan mentions 'democracy' along with a
Palestinian state Arafat will have nothing to do with it.  

> Incidentally, both Iraq and Egypt (both US-backed) have presidents who
> are "elected" but
> DO NOT have popular support.  I might even go further to add that
> Israel, a US-backed "democracy" currently has a
> large population that is living in the equivalent of interment camps.

Yet Arabs living in Israel enjoy more rights than they do in any Arab
state.  Which is no doubt why there is a movement among Palestinians to
simply be part of the state of Israel.  

> 
> That Arafat and the PA enforce by brutal methods that no Muslim should
> ever live under the rule of a Jew,
> => I agree with his assement.  It should be a true democracy comprised
> of both Jews and Palestinians.

Certainly!  And many jews and people from Israel would agree with that
as well.  Its Arafat and the PA that would rather die than live under
Jewish rule, and they'll enforce that with whatever violence is
necessary on the people they control.  But again, Arafat will have
nothing to do with democracy.

> 
> and use brainwashing children to turn them into bombs to accomplish
this
> goal.
> =>Ah the marvels of propoganda :) Denigrate the oppositions
> thinking-capability.
> Perhaps the children are seeing more clearly what is occurring than
the
> eyes
> of the west?  I mean, they do live in that situation 24-7; its not
like
> the media
> has a chance to squash the stories that comprise their lives.

Again, Arafat and the PA oppose in plan to live peacefully under Jewish
rule, leaders who try to compromise get no co-operation from Arafat.
Propoganda?  The facts speak for themselves, Arafat will see no arab
live under jewish rule, and would rather seem them dead.

> 
> Witness the Palestinian people who desire to live under Israel but are
> attacked by the PA.
> => Provide some links please :) I'm always willing to learn something
> new in the course of a discussion.

As am I.  

Israel or the Palestinians? Making the moral Choice -
http://www.rationalview.homestead.com/files/Choosing_Life_or_Death_in_th
e_Middle_East.htm

Libertarians who Loathe Isreal -
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34057
"The PA, on the other hand - with no economy, no free speech and press,
no independent courts, no sound contract laws, and no individual or
property rights - wins the sympathies of legions of freedom lovers hands
down. That hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign aid have done
nothing to change this bleak reality bothers anti-Israel libertarians
only in so far as to point out that Israel is to blame."

Why Arabs Love Israel - 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31947
"...If conditions for Arabs are so bad in Israel, why is the Arab
population exploding -- and I don't mean because of suicide bombers? Why
do Arabs continue to flock to the tiny Jewish state from virtually every
Arab and Muslim land in the world? In 1949, the Arab population of
Israel was about 160,000. Today, it is over 1.2 million."

Be sure to check out Mark Humprhy's excellent page
http://humphrys.humanists.net/judaism.html#israel

The most criticized societies in the world will be the least criminal
societies -
http://humphrys.humanists.net/laws.html#no.1
Something some extropians could do well to read.

Palestinians are still brainwashed and coerced by Arafat and his
despotic PLO regime into blaming Israel for everything and convincing
them to kill as many Israel children as possible.  Arafat is the
dictator of the Palestinian Authority in everyway but in official title,
Palestinians live in constant fear of Arafat's corrupt 'police' force,
laws prohibiting free speech are enforced brutally.  

For example, Mayor Zuhir Hamden publicly stated his villagers live not
under Arafat but Under Israel, he was subsequently shot five times.  Do
you think he was shot by Israel troops?

"Zuhair Hamdan, founder of the Movement for Coexistence in Jerusalem,
was sitting on a chair outside his corner shop near Bethlehem in
November when an official Palestinian Authority car drew up with a
squeal of brakes. From the back window a gunman, who Mr. Hamdan says was
a member of the gang, emptied 12 bullets from a M-16 rifle, hitting him
five times in the abdomen, legs and neck."

from - http://www.likud.nl/extr200.html

see also - http://www.likud.nl/extr.html
Palestinian and Arab extremism

> 
> "End the unjust Jewish occupation of Arab land!"
> http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/tshirts/muslim_land.jpg
> => Hmm.. Unjust, Jewish-occupied, Arab land... hmmmm. Where's the
> problem with that statement?

The irony is in the picture.  The Jewish state and its 'illegal
occupation' are not even visible in the sea of corrupt murderous Arab
states.  

> 
> The worst villain in the Palestine Israel conflict is the noble peace
> prize winning murderous terrorist Arafat.
> => I note, Sharon "the Butcher" hasn't gotten any kudos over his
reign.
> 

The irony is again lost on you.  Arafat, as a known murderous terrorist,
received a noble peace prize.  So did a murderous North Vietnamese
communist general.  The noble peace prize is dolled out by leftist west
hating intellectuals. 

"The Nobel Peace Prize Should Go To Those Who Really Support Peace"
http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/nobelpeaceprize.shtml
 
Michael Dickey