[extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash

[Gina Miller]

Okay I wrote up a response to the article that we read about us. I would like you all to read it and especially Natasha, let me know if it's stamped to go and I will send it to the newspaper and to her email address. This was the best I could do considering my time constrants. g`

Extropian trash

This is my personal response to the article that appeared in the San Francisco Bay Guardian http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html . I wrote this article because I felt compelled to clarify some of the uninformed statements made in this article. This response has not been written by the Extropians, the opinions expressed are my own.


1.)I HATE THE extropians.
1.) "Hate" (capitalized non the less) is a strong word from some one I have never met and has never met me. Even though I strongly disagree with the author's opinions regarding my Extropian friends, I do not hate the author and this dialog would not benefit anyone, including myself, especially if I am trying to establish a rational point.

2.) I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. 

2.) I am not a roboticist nor a Christian, and Heinlein did not influence me to be interested in anything or support anyone.

3.) Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age."

3.) I was not raised in the 1960's and in 1985 I was still in school. In fact, I believe I was born the same year as the author of this article. So this sociological analysis is a generalization, and an unfounded one at that. I have met many Extropians of many ages, with many diverse personalities, interests and belief systems, who do not fit into the above described box. 

4.) Now they're living in California

4.) We live all over America as well as over seas. I am currently not living in California. However, I do understand the association that is being drawn, technology and Silicon Valley are being married together here, however a location does not dictate a state of mind. 

5.) doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities,

5.) First let me say that I am surprised that private universities are described as "stupid". I personally have not been to enough private universities to study the curriculum or how well the system functions, nor have I studied the statistics to determine or form an opinion on the current bar of education at these facilities as compared to other universities, but perhaps the author has done so, and has simply left the evidence out of the article. 

I also do not know where the information of Extropians have "boring jobs" or attending "private universities" was received from. The word "boring" is highly subjective, so what is boring for one is not boring for another, thus the statement itself is speculative. I know many Extropians who do very exciting, intellectual and productive work. I also am married to a Harvard PhD graduate, my best friend attended M.I.T. and many of my Extropian friends have attended a myriad of schools, and some have not attended any. Their jobs, are also just as diverse, from artists to astronomers. 

 6.) and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer,

6.) This is a very, very, crucial point that I am glad the author has pointed out. In 1993 nanotechnology was introduced to me. When I realized the potential benefits that future applications of this emerging technology could have on society, I began my research (see www.nanoindustries.com). In particular one of the most intriguing is the impact it will have on biotechnology. The theorized treatments and monitors could change the face of medicine. It has been over a decade now and I have now been happily married to a man for four years (married 2000), the love of my life, who helped organize one of the first nanotechnology conferences, wrote many articles and edited books on the topic, and is a loving, caring person (see #12). It was our common interest in nanotechnology that in fact, brought us together. In May, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, a form of cancer, and is currently undergoing chemotherapy. Would I prefer that my husband could have the advantages of nanotechnology or other advances as an alternative to the tiring and immune suppressive chemotherapy that he is now undergoing, absolutely. Would I like the same to be available for others, absolutely. We both would like to see the continuation and aide of medical and other advances continue in a safe and educated manner. Today when you are ill, you go to the hospital to receive treatment, it's not considered selfish (see #11) we access technology to help alleviate our pain and cure what ails us. We use technology to communicate via website, like I have, like the author of this article has. Just because technology is often scary when it is not here yet, we can not ignore it's usefulness, even in today's world. This doesn't mean that we can not contemplate the benefits and the risks either, that is exactly the sort of debate that goes on within the Extropian community. How do we guide, how do we prevent, etc.

It was many years after my interest in nanotechnology that I discovered the Extropians (I believe it was 1998?). I found a place where I could address the big questions in life in an intelligent forum with insightful people. There was not only discussion of my particular interest, but also philosophical issues, art, science, language, psychology, music, space, the universe, genetics, current events, history, biology, ethics, the environment, the mind, the list could go on and on. The topics are not one sided, opinions vary and these are expressed in healthy debate. This type of dialog is an example of how communication is often education. 

7.) the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom,

7.) Do I really have to express that I have never expected such an arrival?

8.) and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to preserve their wrinkle-free, 

preternatural tans. 

8.) I have no idea what she means by this? I don't even tan, in fact, I glow in the dark.

9.) So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. They call their movement "extropy" - you know, like the opposite of "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. 

9.) I have never heard the term "heaven" used to describe the future that we hope for. What I have heard is a need for resolution of the problems that we currently face. Every day we watch the news and are all somberly aware that there are things that we need to work on. We live in a world of suffering, hunger, disease, pollution, why would we not try to investigate and support solutions for these problems? 

10.) Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. 

10.) Cryonics suspension does not mean that those who are revived will be revived in a "far-distant, Futurama-style" future, but rather when the technology to revive them becomes available, when ever that is. That could be five years from now or a hundred years from now. The goal is not to wake up in a "perfect" futuristic world, but merely to wake up! 

Something else to note: not everyone who is an Extropian is signed up for cryonics and not everyone signed up for cryonics is an Extropian.

11.) You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science fiction so you can be whatever you want. 

11.) This goes back to the answer above (#9), the descriptions used here "self-help delusions",  "occasionally, hedonism" (#6), and "rampant individualism" are not at all applicable descriptions when you look at the fact that our group is interested in benefiting society as a whole. Of course if you imagine a world that is better for all, you can also imagine a world that is better for the individual. There are many benefits in the world today that can be seen as benefiting the whole and the individual, much of the advances accomplished today do so. 

Supporting technology does not mean that we believe anybody can do "whatever you want", we are not envisioning anarchy. Our moral fibre is intact. 

Our vision of the future is to utilize advancements to achieve a healthy environment, healthy bodies, healthy minds, and general well being. This is the same vision that we have for the majority used today in bringing all of our advances into our daily lives, at the doctors, at work, in our pockets and into our kitchens and living rooms. 

And to quote "it's all about achieving your dreams", when did that become a faux pas? Isn't that what our grandmothers and mothers told us since we were small children? So isn't the alternative to say, don't follow your dreams, be unhappy, that doesn't make any sense to me.

12.) It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them with no value system other than personal accumulation.

12.) Extropy is not a religious structure. My personal experience with fellow members has not displayed the lack of "value system" that the author describes. It's shocking that we are some how mis-interpreted as non-human and non-hearted folk, just because we want to see technology continue to help solve the worlds problems. Extropians are just as caring, family oriented and generous as any of the most kind people anybody else knows in their own lives. There have been times in my life where I turned to my Extropian friends and they all came to my aide in my time of need (#11), and I am referring emotional need (#14). We all have families and friends, we all have compassion and there are those of us who are not well enough off to invest in the "high-tech" companies or even to "accumulate" things. If materialism was a requirement, I and others certainly wouldn't be there.

13.) After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very same life they're already leading - which means they'll outlive their retirement on all that Google stock money. 

13.) Again, I am speaking personally here, I have no Google investment (money again?), and I do not take pills, except for "Flintstones Complete". But I do strongly disagree with the idea that taking protein powders or life extension pills is wrong. Why? Are vitamins wrong? Is medication wrong? Is healthy eating wrong? Is exercise wrong? It's the same thing. It's a personal choice to care for your body so you can live a long and healthy life for yourself and those around you. 

14.) Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian blog conspiracy theories!).

14.) Why is there this instance that we all have money, I imagine some of us do, but if I do, please kindly send me the safe deposit key so that I may access it. During this time with my husbands illness and our insurance companies lack of ability to pay for the treatments, we sure could use it.

People who speculate on theories, discuss and support the possibilities of technology or the future, do not need money to do so. 

15.) Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing the status quo. 

15.) Extropy is not associated with any political party.

16.) Extropians, for all their future worship,

16.) We do not "worship" the future, as the future is yet untold, we are only discussing and preparing for it to be a better future than days gone by.

17.) are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. 

17.) This analogy is somewhat confusing. While I agree with the insinuation the author has regarding George W. Bush (and I am speaking for myself, not the Extropians), I am not clear on how we are just like him except for "projecting hope"? This is a very odd metaphor since the author almost seems to be agreeing with my ideologies so the parallel is almost the proof!

18.) And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya and Chile. 

18.) Extropy is not just cryonic suspension (the term cryogenics is a related procedural general term). Yes Extropians see the advantages of future technological applications, much in the same we are currently living with the benefits of modern medicine. However, not every single Extropian is signed up for cryonic suspension. Since the Extropian movement does not include only members who believe in "such and such technology" it is more generally open since emerging technologies tend to relate to each other. 

Another point is, that it is not expensive to sign up for cryonics, if you opt to pay by simply paying a standard insurance payment rather than a flat fee.

Nanotechnology for example would give those who live in poverty access to manufacture their own supplies for practically no cost due to it's use of raw materials. 

19.) In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like entropy to me. 

19.) I'm not sure what the author means by "live like trash". If I were to assume that she meant those who are not financially secure, then I would also assume those who are not, might find the "trash" reference objectionable. With that said, there are very wide distances between the rich and the poor in the world we in live in today (#18). Many of the technologies we as Extropians discuss, aim to shorten that distance. 



20.) Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly newspaper. 

20.) I tried to look the word "spazhumanist" up, but apparently it's not a real word. 


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20040910/7457e4e9/attachment.html>