[extropy-chat] Qualia Bet

[Robin Hanson]

At 11:38 PM 12/8/2005, Marc Geddes wrote:
>>>Of course it's trivially true that all metaphysical entities have 
>>>to be related to causal processes *in some sense* (in order to 
>>>produce observable effects).   But this by itself establishes 
>>>little.  It doesn't follow that all metaphysical entities are 
>>>fully reducible to descriptions in terms of *physical* causality 
>>>at all - where I am here defining physical causality as: 'cause 
>>>and effect relations between objects with spatial extensions and 
>>>the forces and motions associated with these objects'.
>>
>>I talked about a network of causation of brain states, but did not 
>>require spatial extensions, forces, motions, or objects.
>
>The way I interpret what you meant by 'causation of brain states' is 
>that you meant the physical actions of the components making up the 
>brain.  These are neurons, neurotransmitters, electrochemical 
>signals etc right?  And these things ultimately decompose to objects 
>with spatial extensions, forces and motions i.e. when precisely 
>describing brain actions using the laws of physics you ultimately 
>end up with things located in space and the motions and forces 
>associated with these things no?

How much more direct can I be?  No, did not mean to talk only about 
"physical" or "spatial" things.  No, no, no.

>As you admit:  'The patterns *themselves*, as opposed to their 
>instances, do not as far as we know separately sit in our network of 
>causation'.  So the question arises, where do these *patterns* 
>exist?  If you agree that the *patterns* are real and that they do 
>not in fact directly sit in the network causation, then you've 
>conceded that there can exist real entities which are not directly 
>sitting in the network of physical causation.  Qualia could be just 
>such entities.

I'm not sure what exactly it means for something to "exist" that does 
not sit in our network of causation.  My claims were not intended to 
be much about "existence."  Instead, my main claim is that we can 
never get any evidence about such things, whether they exist or not.



Robin Hanson  rhanson at gmu.edu  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326  FAX: 703-993-2323