[extropy-chat] Qualia Bet

[gts]

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:21:51 -0500, Marc Geddes <marc.geddes at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> If qualia exist in a platonic sense then there may be only one true
> "green." The green quale may exist objectively, like the number 5, and be
> a real primary quality of green objects rather than a Lockean secondary
> quality. If so then we all see green the same way, at least in principle,
> because we are accessing the same information.
>
>> Are we in agreement here, Marc?
>
> I half agree ;)  I wouldn't say that a 'green quale' is real primary  
> quality of green objects.  Instead I'd say that it's a real property of  
> a  *possible relationship* or *possible interaction* between green  
> objects and conscious observers.

This seems equivalent to Locke's definition of secondary qualities as the  
powers of objects to act on our senses, the only difference being in the  
fact that Locke uses the somewhat nebulous word "power" and assigns the  
power to the object rather than to the interaction. He does so rightly, I  
think, because neither the observer nor the interaction has power for  
example to make a blue object appear red. Only a change in the object (or  
some artificial interference in our sense apparatus) can change our  
perception of its qualities.

You like me want to grant these secondary qualities some objective  
platonic reality. I really do think we've got the same idea here.

Locke defines primary qualities of objects: "First, the size, shape,  
number, position, and motion or rest of their solid parts; those are in  
them, whether or not we perceive them"

Types of "Shape" and "Number" are classic platonic ideas, and Locke writes  
that these properties are in objects, whether or not we perceive them. If  
qualia truly have objective reality as you and I want to say then I think  
we have to admit they too are qualities of the object whether or not we  
perceive them. What else could we mean by objective? We might say the  
qualities have their origin in the platonic realm of ideas, and can be  
seen only when we perceive the object, but they are nevertheless objective  
properties of the object.

> But yes, I agree that quale has objective existence and could in  
> principle be fully communicated to others.

Perhaps no more complicated than pointing at a color chart and saying  
"Here, this is the color I have in mind."

My television looks to me like an effing machine. Not perfect, but it's  
next best thing to being there. :)

-gts