[extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked

[Samantha Atkins]

On Feb 9, 2005, at 5:19 AM, Greg Burch wrote:

> Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk.  Now here you are voicing 
> the same hysterical nonsense.  Maybe we were all just fooling 
> ourselves that we lived on the same planet before 911.  SInce then, it 
> seems that it's become less and less possible to communicate across 
> ideological divides.

Great.  Throw in the towel.  That's always a wonderful strategy.   The 
entire species seems to have to work really hard to act remotely 
rational and civil and this crosses all so-called "ideological 
divides".

>
> I spend as much time as I can afford reading material written by 
> people with whom I disagree.  But I honestly don't think many of the 
> politics posters on this list do.  What I see from the America-bashers 
> and Bush-haters posting here is the equal of the absolute most shrill 
> Democratic Underground posts (a far-left BBS, for folks not steeped in 
> U.S. politics) and the Guardian's and Le Monde's op-ed pages.

Bush deeply deserves to be hated.   I am very sorry if you have used 
your fine mind to persuade yourself otherwise.   i am even more sorry 
if you choose to disengage and disparage those who disagree instead of 
continuing to attempt to find what truth and mutual understanding we 
can together.


>
> Maybe it's because I work professionally in what is functionally a job 
> of practical politics and have been an academic student of politcal 
> philosophy and history all my life; but I'm getting to the point that 
> I can hardly bring myself to even scan these posts, they are so 
> steeped in cliches and not-even-half-truths.  The caricature of 
> America as a fascist military state that is depicted in these posts 
> would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.  Of course those who have been 
> making these posts will say, "Why do you think the world sees America 
> this way?"  Well, I've tried to explain this as civilly as I can.  In 
> my view, the cultural machinery of much of the West has been hijacked 
> over the last 40 years by people who subscribe to what I have come to 
> see as a deeply flawed ideology.  It has become so pervasive in the 
> cultural spheres of much of the developed world outside the U.S. (and 
> San Francisco, Seattle and a few other U.S. urban regions count in 
> that sphere) that people who!
>  don't make a concerted effort to work through to expose themselves to 
> other points of view don't realize that every word they read, every 
> image they see is a product of this world-view.  One of the 
> foundational elements of this world-view is the demonization of the 
> United States, its culture, politics and foreign policies.


This is hardly scholarly or refutable once you are thoroughly infected 
thereby.   If the country is on a very dangerous course you will tend 
to disown those who attempt to point it out as being of that other camp 
and thus hopeless.

>
> Just as only a tiny handful of the thousands of people whose testimony 
> I've taken in the last 17 years as a lawyer actually, consciusly knew 
> they were lying when it could be proved they were stating a falsehood 
> under oath, almost no-one is aware of the foundational ideologial and 
> cultural premises of the world-view upon which their opinions about 
> politics and culture are based -- these things are like water to a 
> fish, so ubiquitous that it goes unnoticed and unquestioned.


Hey, I have consciously examined and many times shifted my views on 
various things many times across your supposed world-view boundaries.   
Please give your proof of the existence of these deeply determinative 
mindsets or stop pigeon-holing those who disagree with you on one or 
more questions.


> It takes a lot of effort to make one's self aware of such things and 
> then to engage in a process of systematic and on-going testing to 
> develop and maintain a consistent, rational political and cultural 
> philosophy.  Most people, whose daily lives do not revolve around such 
> things don't have the time or inclination to do it.  I'm not saying 
> anyone else should somehow accept my opinions just because I believe 
> that's the job I've set for myself -- after all, there are people who 
> disagree with me who have inves!
> ted just as much effort and come to different conclusions.  But before 
> tossing off the opinion that Europe should ally itself with Russia to 
> develop a nuclear shield against U.S. agression, you might just stop 
> and ask yourself what assumptions about the the U.S. such an opinion 
> is necessarily based on.
>

Better.  I of course found such remarks equally outrageous even though 
i believe the entire world is in danger by what seems to be brewing in 
our government.

I need coffee too.  :-)

> - samantha