[extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was -isAmericafascistyet?]

[Steve Davies]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" <pgptag at gmail.com>

> The question was not asked to me, but I will try answering.
> Greg, you are correct in the sense that younger immigrant generations
> are probably MORE inclined to religiously-motivated violence than the
> older generations. In my opinion the simpler explanation the young
> have seen the old making an effort to become integrated in european
> society, and not achieving it (they still have worse jobs and living
> conditions than the average). So they feel powerless and seek an
> identity they can live with in the religion of their grandfathers.
> A solution? Simple, cure the disease and not the symptom.
> G.
>
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:36:41 -0600, Greg Burch <gregburch at gregburch.net>
wrote:
> > It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims
in Europe.  Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger
segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to
religiously-motivated violence.  Do you agree?  If so, do you have any
proposed solution to this?

Again the question wasn't aimed at me but I'll have a stab at it. It is true
that there is a large population of young Muslims in Europe who are
alienated from the order in which they live (I don't like 'unassimilated' as
I would argue you can be unassimilated but not radically alienated). I'd
make the following points.

1. They are not alone in this. There are many alienated young people,
particularly men, among many social groups. For me this reflects the
experience of being at the sharp end of rapid economic and technological
change, particularly changes that have reduced the status and relative
earning power of unskilled young men, and also the way in which many
historical identities become both problematic and more intensely held in the
face of such factors as growing economic integration (aka globalisation),
increased cultural interaction, and large scale migration.

2. In many ways this should not surprise us. Young Muslims in Europe are
simply following the standard pattern for migrant groups, in which a
substantial minority of the second or third generation become intensely
attached to a highly conservative form of their ancestral culture, often
with the result that they are more traditional than the population 'back
home'. That's why if you want to see how 19th century Wales worked you go to
Patagonia, you would go to Cape Breton for insight into traditional Scots
Gaelic life and (until recently) the place to find out about traditional
Catholic French society was Quebec. Given world geopolitics this can now
take the form of support for militant or terrorist organisations. This is
not surprising - a sociologist of migration would predict confidently that
groups like Al Queda will do better among Islamic populations in the West
than back in the Middle East (and that there it will tend to do best in
relatively modernised states and among people exposed to modernity).

3. The young Muslims who are angry and alienated and attached to a
reactionary form of their religion get a lot of attention because they make
good TV. By contrast no attention is paid to the larger group who are
quietly abandoning their religion and becoming secular or are developing a
modernist variant of it. Apart from lack of media 'sexiness', these people
also don't have access to the huge funds that the Saudis pour into
obscurantist and reactionary organisations.

4. Certain migrant populations (who happen to be Muslim) have a particular
problem in modern societies. This is a family system in which the normal
practice is to marry your cousin. Among groups in Western Europe such as
Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Arabs, this makes economic success much more
difficult and hampers integration into the wider society.

Steve Davies.