[extropy-chat] Who thinks the Bush admin lied over Iraq? Onwhatbasis?

[Robert Lindauer]

The Avantguardian wrote:

>I was unaware that Brett started it. That seems to be
>rather uncharacteristic of Brett.
>  
>

The mere existence of someone who would continue to even try to make the 
case for the Bush administration at this point is an insult to free 
people everywhere.

>  
>
>>>Brett has
>>>very little stake in this debate.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Obviously, otherwise he'd have taken the time to
>>inform himself about it.
>>    
>>
>
>I don't know about that. He seems to be better
>informed than the average American voter. And that's a
>sad sorry shame.
>  
>

Maybe, but then why ask for references when he knows (a) that they're 
available with a 30-second google search and (b) that I've got a website 
chock full of them (mostly clips from the AP!).

>  
>
>>>He is not some
>>>Republican defending Bush's actions, he is a
>>>      
>>>
>>complete
>>    
>>
>>>outsider (in Australia) that is trying to form an
>>>unbiased opinion on the war.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Obviously not "unbiased".
>>    
>>
>
>No sentient being is completely unbiased about
>anything. That is WHY they call it self-interest. For
>what it's worth, however, I think it is critical for
>America to realize that alleged crimes by a President
>and a major land war, justified or not, trumps
>politics in general any distinction of left or right
>is mute. If Bush were a Democrat, I would still be
>outraged by his actions. It is time to start thinking
>about how WE THE PEOPLE are going to survive this
>mess.
>  
>
Me too.  I can't stand those democrats, the wimpiest opposition party in 
the history of opposition parties. 

And I agree, who cares about the politics, what about the stacks of 
shocked-and-awed to death Iraqis?

>
>
>  
>
>>>By your pointless
>>>name-calling, you are only serving to justify the
>>>      
>>>
>>low
>>    
>>
>>>opinion that other nations have of us right now and
>>>furthermore you are making the OTHER side of the
>>>political spectrum more appealing to him by
>>>comparison.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Oh pleeze, grow up.  Have you ever watched
>>parliament?  Poltics is 
>>UGLY.  The world has a low opinion of America
>>BECAUSE of our 
>>administration not because there are lots of us
>>complaining about it.  
>>That part they barely get to hear.
>>    
>>
>
>Politics is ugly. But nowhere near as ugly as war.
>Insulting the other side in a debate is great
>rhetorical trick on a playground. Intelligent adults,
>however, just realize it means you don't have anything
>more substantive to say.
>  
>

No.  At some point all of the relevant facts are laid on the table and 
you still have a disagreement.  At that point, producing more facts in 
evidence is useless, the only thing to do is start slinging mudd.  In 
general, the republicans start slinging first, I was just switching it 
up a little - figured I'd start slinging first this time, I've done the 
whole produce facts thing.  The point is that THEY don't give a crap 
about the facts.  THEY like the bloodshed and false sense of security 
that our administration has provided.

>>>Nobody has ever convinced anyone of
>>>anything by insulting them.
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I agree, but then I said, I'm not trying to convince
>>anyone anymore.  
>>I'm just not willing to let the self-satisfied
>>smugness of right-wing 
>>statist appologists (paid or unpaid) go unnoticed.
>>    
>>
>
>Then your cause is already lost. And in as much as I
>want a speedy peaceful resolution to this mess and
>oath-breakers to be brought to justice, I suppose mine
>is too.
>  
>

Pretty much.  But maybe I'm just not playing that game.  Maybe I'm 
playing a different game.

>>The rhetoric of the right BEGINS with ridicule, when
>>people who aren't 
>>on the right fight back they complain - I say f-em. 
>>And if you're as 
>>far off the left-right scale as me, nothing you say
>>has much chance of 
>>-convincing- very many people at all.  But that's
>>not why you say it.
>>    
>>
>
>It's not the one who begins a conflict that wins but
>the one who ends it. If your cake of "truth" is
>frosted with insults, nobody will eat it. There were a
>great many undecideds before the last election, if the
>right is telling everyone you are a conspiracy nutter
>and you begin your sales pitch with "Hey, Stupid . .
>." you are doing more harm to your cause then good.
>  
>

Well, as I see it, the Democrats/Opposition have calmly and patiently 
made this case sufficiently well for two years and at this point the 
only relevant opening salvo for those unwilling to throw 
punches/missiles/bullets is "jane you ignorant slut".

I mean, it's not like I'm trying to get Republicans to LIKE ME!

Robbie