[extropy-chat] Why I am No Longer a Libertarian Either...

[Robert Lindauer]

On Jul 26, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Al Brooks wrote:

> What about intellectuals-- can they be trusted? Would
> it be reasonable to say around 80% of professors are
> in it mostly for the salary and benefits? I certainly
> don't want to criticize the military-industrial
> complex if most intellectuals (professors at the top)
> are no more trustworthy.

Why?  If there are TWO ogres living together in a cave who demand three 
virgins a month -or else- don't you have to go kill both ogres?

I particularly like this analysis, again from Meszaros, in the chapter 
entitled "The Objective Constraints on Scientific Research"...

"It is symbolic of our age that the highest intellectual achievements 
are rewarded with a large sum of money attached to a prize - the Nobel 
Peace Prize - which represents the lucrative investment of the 
fortunate amassed by the inventor of the greatest forces of destruction 
known to man prior to the atom bomb...."

He goes on...

"One of the stubborn illusions with regard to the natural sciences 
concerns their alleged 'objectivity' ... ascribed to them on account of 
their experimental and instrumental character...  in reality the 
opposite happens to be the case."

"What is at issue here is that since natural scientists must operate 
within the framework of tangible (as well as costly) instrumental 
complexes and supporting structures, they have to secure incomparably 
more substantial material resources as the elementary condition of 
their activity..."

"Since, however, 70 per cent of all scientific research in the United 
States is controlled by the military/industrial complex ... one wonders 
whose freedom and autonomy they are talking about in praising the 
established..."

And relevant to this forum he quotes from T. Durhams "Fifth Generation 
Forever"...

"Both the pace and complexity  of modern war have left the human 
nervous system behind.   The US Department of Defense is one of the 
mains sources of funds for AI research.   It is an uncomfortable fact 
that AI research was kept health in the US through the 1970's by a 
military establishment which, unlink business, can afford a few 
failures...  For example, the cruise missile's Tercom guidance system, 
which matches hills and valleys with an internalmap, is reportedly 
unreliable.  But companies believed to have worked on the system are 
now profiting from their expertise by marketing industrial vision 
systems."


Because, in the end,

"In the capitalistically advanced countries all branches of science and 
technology are brought into play in furtherance of the aims of the 
powerful economic and political/organizational structures..."

"Trustworthy" is a word to be reserved for maybe your dog.  Maybe your 
family, maybe your friends, certainly not the political propaganda 
machine known as education.

>   I hesitate to discuss the illegal immigration issue.
>  Mexican families are now so plugged into America
> there is no chance of consensus to close the border to
> illegals, unless we get another big attack in the U.S.
>  Liberal friends wont discuss it at all, they clam up.

What do non-liberals want to do, pack them in containers and send them 
home or just kill them outright and save the shipping expense?

> Some wont even admit terrorism exists. They don't
> argue, they merely scoff, "terrorism? what
> terrorism?"; the most they will say is America wont
> admit what it did in the past to the Mideast. then
> they change the subject & refuse to be drawn out.

Well, technically, it's not terrorism any more.  It's war that's come 
to our shores.  It's just that our enemy is substantially smaller and 
consequently has chosen very, very different means of achieving their 
goals.  If we want to stop this war, we've got to find a way of making 
peace.  "It's harder to make peace than war."  This will require 
something other than bravado and shock-and-awe.   Remember that war is 
not new to Iraqis or Afghanis.  Most of  this generation were raised in 
countries at war and with the US nefariously at the helm of both.  They 
regard our interference in their countries both economic and military 
as covert acts of aggression and until we simultaneously fess up and 
stop, we can expect the aggression to continue (that is what Bin Laden 
said, anyway, in his statement available at pbs.org).  And objectively 
speaking, it sounds right.  If you take war-raised kids as familiar 
with guns and grenades as ours are with instant messaging and brittany 
spears, have them grow up, explain to them that the US is predominantly 
responsible for the death of their parents/uncles/sisters/brothers and 
continues to be responsible for their poverty (and the case isn't hard 
to make), hand them a grenade launcher and gun and welcome to why we 
have war at our doorstep.  Necessity breeds invention, inevitably one 
day one of the militarily oppressed would devise a way to have their 
cause recognized and taking that directly to American civilians is the 
natural conclusion for which no Ph.D. in military tactics is necessary.

>
>> I would estimate that where Georgism resides in the
>> left wing of
>> Libertarian territory, PROUTism is over the line in
>> solid left-liberal territory.

Well, Chomsky did put his stamp of approval on it.  Prout appears to be 
a pragmatic pro-humanist attempt.  No doubt I'm a 
proutist/leftist/communist/libertarian/liberal/anarchist/pragmatist.

Robbie Lindauer