[extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again

The Avantguardian avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com
Sat Jun 25 09:14:05 UTC 2005



--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> >
> > There is no fallback position. We have go through
> with
> > it all the way.
> 
> Baloney.  It is idiocy compounded to continue with
> what was stupid to  
> begin with and ruinous to continue. The Iraqis would
> largely be  
> delighted if we left.

No to begin a fight over so little was idiocy. To
continue to its completion is now our only rational
recourse. I abhor wars in general and this one in
particular, but there is no other strategically sound
move at this juncture.



> 
> > The Romans had a saying which
> > translated from the latin was roughly, "Any fool
> can
> > start a war but only the victor can decide when to
> > stop fighting."
> 
> Not really.  We could leave tomorrow if we liked. 
> Our military  
> strength is disproportionally large and it is an
> occupation rather  
> than a war where both sides feel compelled to
> continue.  The Iraqis  
> would happily stop if we were not occupying their
> country.

Yes, we could pull out tomorrow if we wanted to. Then
we would be repeating the mistakes of Britain in
Israel/Palestine and the French in Algeria. Those two
incidents were major victories for terrorism. Those
two highly publicised pull-outs by industrial
democracies from weaker nations in the face of
terrorist attacks sent the message, "Terrorism works
as an effective means of cowing large democratic
military powers." Because of these mistakes by England
and France, not to mention our own, we now have the
likes of Bin Ladin running around.
      If we pull out before Iraq's government is able
to fend for itself, it will be spun by every terrorist
rag in the world as a "victory for holy Islam". The
enemy (the true enemy and not the Iraqui insurgents)
will see this as an encouragment. The ranks of Al
Quaeda and other terrorist organizations will swell
with pride and numbers. Then 9-11s will happen every
year, until we are left squabling with each other in
the ashes of our former glory like post-Atilla the Hun
Rome.
 
> > One cannot sucker-punch somebody even
> > by mistake and expect a brawl to not ensue.
> 
> This assumes relative equals and is very much
> inapplicable to the  
> situation at hand.

No it assumes that superiority is a matter of
sometimes faulty perception until conflict happens.
Then the resolution of the conflict itself determines
superiority. We were considered a second rate power
until WWII after which we became a superpower because
we WON. That is how the hegemons of the world come and
go. If we don't win, we are no longer superior. If are
no longer percieved as superior, our enemies will
close in on us. The more we fight, the more we lose
until we really are nothing. The fight that must be
won is the fight we are currently engaged in. The
whole world is watching and calculating. Kim Il Jong
is watching. We must win a decisive victory in Iraq or
we will have to fight dozens of more wars for the same
cause. Had we finished the fight in the first Gulf
War, we would not have had to fight this one. This is
the Tao of war. We cannot leave a wounded enemy alive
and turn our back on him. If we do, then we will be
ground beneath the chariot wheels of history.

> 
> > And once
> > that happens, you have to win the brawl or lose
> it.
> 
> Again, inapplicable.
> 
> > There is no fallback whether your initial blow was
> > justified or not. This is the karma of war and why
> any
> > use of force is a very grave life-or-death
> decision
> > not to be taken lightly by any head of state. This
> > wisdom is thousands of years old. A pity that
> Dubya
> > never read "the Art of War".
> 
> A pity that such bright people insist on searching
> for good excuses  
> to continue shooting ourselves in the foot.

     No Samantha. We shot ourselves in the foot by
invading Iraq in the first place. Now we have to
continue to fight so as not to lose our whole leg or
even our life.
     I am not searching for excuses to continue the
fighting. I hate this war but the consequence of our
initial invasion is that we HAVE to win it. This war
is no longer about what what it started as. It is
bigger than Iraq now. In some ways it is bigger than
the U.S. now. It is now a war of democracy versus
fundamentalist theocracy. Iraq has now become the
chosen physical nexus for a war of two great
psychospiritual forces. Iraq is now just a token
trophy. The true battlefield and prize at stake in
this conflict is the minds of men and women the world
over. 
      If we pull out now and let the Islamist fundies
take over Iraq, then Libya, Syria, and all those other
countries will start going back to their old ways. The
fundamentalist regime in Iran will then have a
powerful ally to assist it in opressing their own
people. Girls will be stoned to death by their own
brothers for showing their ankles to a stranger. The
Israeli/Palestinian conflict will escalate. And all
the sacrifices we have made in this bloody mess from
the 9-11 victims to the soldiers now dying nearly
daily will have been for NOTHING. Is this world you
would have Samantha? 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



More information about the extropy-chat mailing list