[extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again

[Samantha Atkins]

On Jun 25, 2005, at 2:14 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:

>
>
> --- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> There is no fallback position. We have go through
>>>
>> with
>>
>>> it all the way.
>>>
>>
>> Baloney.  It is idiocy compounded to continue with
>> what was stupid to
>> begin with and ruinous to continue. The Iraqis would
>> largely be
>> delighted if we left.
>>
>
> No to begin a fight over so little was idiocy. To
> continue to its completion is now our only rational
> recourse. I abhor wars in general and this one in
> particular, but there is no other strategically sound
> move at this juncture.
>

Tell it to the Russians after Afghanistan.  What is our goal?  Of  
what does completion consist?  Killing until all that fight the  
occupation are dead or imprisoned?  What?

>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> The Romans had a saying which
>>> translated from the latin was roughly, "Any fool
>>>
>> can
>>
>>> start a war but only the victor can decide when to
>>> stop fighting."
>>>
>>
>> Not really.  We could leave tomorrow if we liked.
>> Our military
>> strength is disproportionally large and it is an
>> occupation rather
>> than a war where both sides feel compelled to
>> continue.  The Iraqis
>> would happily stop if we were not occupying their
>> country.
>>
>
> Yes, we could pull out tomorrow if we wanted to. Then
> we would be repeating the mistakes of Britain in
> Israel/Palestine and the French in Algeria. Those two
> incidents were major victories for terrorism.

An underground resisitance to occupation nearly always resorts to  
terrorism.  It is no "victory of terrorism" if the occupier goes  
home.  It si a victory for self-determination for a people.


> Those
> two highly publicised pull-outs by industrial
> democracies from weaker nations in the face of
> terrorist attacks sent the message, "Terrorism works
> as an effective means of cowing large democratic
> military powers."

The message should be sent again and again that bullying and  
occupying a country for largely imperialistic reason is costly and a  
mistake.   Saying that right is on the side of grinding the  
resistance into the dirt is about as evil as it gets.


> Because of these mistakes by England
> and France, not to mention our own, we now have the
> likes of Bin Ladin running around.

This is utterly absurd.

>       If we pull out before Iraq's government is able
> to fend for itself, it will be spun by every terrorist
> rag in the world as a "victory for holy Islam". The
> enemy (the true enemy and not the Iraqui insurgents)
> will see this as an encouragment.

Organized terrorism has been strengthened immeasurably by our  
actions.  We are our own worse enemy.


> The ranks of Al
> Quaeda and other terrorist organizations will swell
> with pride and numbers. Then 9-11s will happen every
> year, until we are left squabling with each other in
> the ashes of our former glory like post-Atilla the Hun
> Rome.
>

We are making the ranks swell now.   Don't threaten with more  
Reichtaggs please.

>
>>> One cannot sucker-punch somebody even
>>> by mistake and expect a brawl to not ensue.
>>>
>>
>> This assumes relative equals and is very much
>> inapplicable to the
>> situation at hand.
>>
>
> No it assumes that superiority is a matter of
> sometimes faulty perception until conflict happens.
> Then the resolution of the conflict itself determines
> superiority. We were considered a second rate power
> until WWII after which we became a superpower because
> we WON. That is how the hegemons of the world come and
> go. If we don't win, we are no longer superior. If are
> no longer percieved as superior, our enemies will
> close in on us. The more we fight, the more we lose
> until we really are nothing. The fight that must be
> won is the fight we are currently engaged in. The
> whole world is watching and calculating. Kim Il Jong
> is watching. We must win a decisive victory in Iraq or
> we will have to fight dozens of more wars for the same
> cause. Had we finished the fight in the first Gulf
> War, we would not have had to fight this one. This is
> the Tao of war. We cannot leave a wounded enemy alive
> and turn our back on him. If we do, then we will be
> ground beneath the chariot wheels of history.
>

Is Iraq itself our enemy?   There is no "decisive victory" in this  
kind of conflict.  If you believe there is then please explain  
exactly what it is.  The whole world is watching us do whatever the  
hell we want militarily witho or without sanction or reason.   We are  
creating more enemies than allies in Iraq and because of Iraq.
>>

>> A pity that such bright people insist on searching
>> for good excuses
>> to continue shooting ourselves in the foot.
>>
>
>      No Samantha. We shot ourselves in the foot by
> invading Iraq in the first place. Now we have to
> continue to fight so as not to lose our whole leg or
> even our life.

We will lose more by continuing than leaving now.  That lesson is  
clean]r in history also.

>      I am not searching for excuses to continue the
> fighting. I hate this war but the consequence of our
> initial invasion is that we HAVE to win it. This war
> is no longer about what what it started as. It is
> bigger than Iraq now.

If it has little or notihing to do with Iraq then we should leave.

> In some ways it is bigger than
> the U.S. now. It is now a war of democracy versus
> fundamentalist theocracy.

Need I remind you that Iraq was one of the least theocratic  
countries?  Now the theocrats are vastly strengthened by our own  
actions.   The theocrats are lose at home and running a would be  
replay of the Crusades.

> Iraq has now become the
> chosen physical nexus for a war of two great
> psychospiritual forces. Iraq is now just a token
> trophy. The true battlefield and prize at stake in
> this conflict is the minds of men and women the world
> over.

You sound like a raving End Times fan.  token trophy?  War between  
Good and Evil?  Sheesh.

>       If we pull out now and let the Islamist fundies
> take over Iraq, then Libya, Syria, and all those other
> countries will start going back to their old ways.

Sigh.


- samantha