Meta: Too far Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again

[The Avantguardian]

--- Hubert Mania <humania at t-online.de> wrote:

> I experienced the war on Iraq as a severe caesura.

I am sorry you feel that way. For what its worth my
1/250 millionth of a say, which is approximately zero,
every four years in what my country DOES was spent
trying to prevent and end this war. Unfortunately that
did not come to pass. That you choose to constantly
blame me and hold me accountable for what a President
that I did not elect says and does is rude at best and
downright irrational at worst.    

> Up to that point I
> enjoyed discussions about trancending the biological
> restrictions of
> mankind. The war changed everything. Supposedly
> smart people outed
> themselves as coolhearted revanchists and believed
> the lies they were told.

YOU find the needle of truth in the haystack of lies
then come back and show it to me. And don't tell me
all that Euroganda that I hear you guys spout is
remotely the truth. Where were your protests when the
U.S. invaded Panama in the 1990? Or Grenada? How come
you don't protest all the genocide and inhumanity in
Rawanda and a host of other places? Is it because
black people don't deserve your activism? Or is it
that all this moral posturing is really a cover for
the fact that you feel Germany's own economic
interests will be unfavorably affected by our actions
in the middle east? What? Are you upset you can't sell
Saddam any more mobile Bioweapons labs? All these
conspiracy theories about 9-11 being the American
Reichstagg. Is that the best you can do? It hasn't
escaped my notice that the 9-11 hijackers came here
from Germany. How do I know you guys didn't have
something to do with it? How many more Al-Quaeda
members are you harboring? 

> Worst of all was and is the US patriotism, one of
> the major drives and
> forces behind. In this special respect, the cultural
> gap between the USA and
> Germany is not reconcilable. I simply cannot grasp
> it.

Oh but your father could and his father too. Did the
world come down on you guys too hard for it? Is that
why you are afraid to be proud of being German. Let me
tell you something, you have the right to feel proud
you are a German. You are just not supposed to try to
beat your neighbors into submission with it. It's a
lesson my country may end up having to learn the hard
way.


> 
> I am still filled with indignation to read a post
> like the recent one from
> Mike Lorrey where he callously calculates the
> "losses" in Iraq, fools around
> with big numbers and tries to convince us that
> killing some people today
> might result in better living tomorrow.

There is no illogic in this. In medicine one often has
to cut out a diseased portion of the body so that the
rest of the body might live. It is called surgery. I
hear Josef Mengele was pretty adept at it.


 Dear
> extropes: A man like him with
> his political aspirations is a big threat to your
> noble case. He might be
> able to pile up loads of informations to impress
> your innocent hungry
> intellect, but the force behind it is a totalitarian
> one

Totalitarian? How is a guy who doesn't even believe
his own national government lawfully exists in any way
totalitarian? It's a great putdown, but what on Earth
could be your rationale for it? If liberterian means
totalitarian these days, I think you need a new
English dictionary.


 and reveals the
> sheer ugliness of utilitarianism. It is a threat to
> your physical and
> spiritual health and your freedom.

Ok. Once again I am confused. I took one university
level philosophy class and learned that that
utilitarianism is based on the utilitarian principle:
"the greatest good for the greatest number". Now I
don't know if I am necessarily qualify as utilitarian
because I am inherently somewhat selfish, but humoring
you. If I WERE a utilitarian how is that a bad thing?
When you start talking about the most good being a bad
thing, I don't know what to make of your post. Did the
list switch to newspeak where "war is peace" and
"freedom is slavery" and I not get the memo? 

> And if a man like
> Stuart LaForge
> elaborates on the kindness (sic!) of US soldiers on
> battlefields all over
> the world, everything else he might contribute to
> this list, is in my
> opinion reduced to a pile of shit. Period.

     Well unlike you, I know what I am talking about
because I was once one of those U.S. soldiers.
Eighteen years old and clueless. Wanting to make
something out of my life and uncertain as to what to
do. So I signed up to see the world. I was part of the
force that invaded Panama to oust Noriega and I don't
remember you guys getting all in a huff about that.
And the reason that the administration gave for that
one was not WMD or terrorism but simply drugs. Even as
an 18 year old, I knew that was bullshit but I went
any way to do what I saw was my honor bound duty.
There were a minimum of casualties on both sides and
Noriega was ousted.
     I can proudly say I did not do one thing that
bothered my conscience. Returning fire on someone
shooting at you is hardly wrong, it is just plain
survival. That you would judge any soldier U.S. or
otherwise a monster for that tells me you need to get
your survival instincts checked out. 

> Since the beginning of the war on Iraq I have
> acquired a bad reputation as a
> person who only seems to use dirty word and insult
> people.

I was unaware of your reputation but this post seems
to indicate that you have earned it.

> I do not regret a
> single post and pledge for the right of *not*
> writing in a civil tone, while
> others cold heartedly and verbosely support the
> killing of innocent people
> 10.000 miles away from their home.

Nobody supports the killing of innocent people. Least
of all peace and freedom loving Americans. None of the
guys strapping bombs to themselves or aiming carbines
at our soldiers are innocent. The Baathists killed
thousands during Sadam's rule and the terrorists have
been rather naughty as well. I guarantee you that
every precaution is being taken from every single
soldier to prevent civilian casualties. But when the
guys shooting at you insist on wearing plain clothes
and hiding courageously behind unarmed civillians,
mistakes do happen. I apologize for those unfortunate
deaths.
     But I don't see any of the insurgents making any
apologies for any of the civillians they kill. And I
rather certain that that number will soon be higher
than the U.S. caused civillian casualties if it is not
already.
     But considerations of the ugly reality of war
aside, who are you to stand 10,000 miles away from
combatants engaged a life and death struggle and pass
any manner of judgement on either side? You think the
American soldiers WANT to be there? Soldiers of all
nationalities pray for peace because its their asses
on the line. Not yours. 

 This movement is
> a dead duck, if you
> allow false patriotism as a source of territorial
> pissings to be prolonged
> into potential eternity in a future transhuman
> society.

Well let me clear something up here right here and
right now. My patriotism is not false. It is as not
wide-eyed and innocent as it was when I last wore a
uniform. But I still love my country, not for its
lying politicians or cheezy Hollywood movies but
because is founded on some of the most beautiful
principles ever penned. While I will agree that we
don't always live up to our own ideals, those ideals
are always there like moral GPS system to tell us
exactly how right or how wrong we, or anyone else for
that matter, really are. Furthermore I will defend
those principles and people that espouse them with my
LIFE.  

 At least, this is
> not *my* vision of transhumanism. Get a little more
> Un-American!

Yeah? And what exactly is Un-American? Every race
creed and national origin is represented in our midst
including you precious Germans. So I when I go and
drink beer at the Oktoberfest that the local German
community here in Los Angeles hold every year, am I
being Un-American enough for you? All an American
truly is is a person who is tolerant enough to call
anyone else living in his country a countryman.  Hell
I almost blame you guys for Bush. After all Bush is no
more than the mangled German surname Busch. Maybe
that's where he gets his facist sterak from. Do you
guys want him back? 

The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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