[extropy-chat] against ID

[Brent Allsop]

Hi Eugene


> I don't believe in SA (or an effective infinity of similiar
> production processes) for one reason: we don't have one shred of evidence
> for it.

I agree, but I also wanted to point out the evidence I accept against it.

> > 1. Our consciousness is made up of qualia or phenomenal properties.
> While
> 
> Did you know that phlogiston has negative weight?
> http://www.jimloy.com/physics/phlogstn.htm

Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

I think qualia or phenomenal properties of nature which I think the brain
uses to represent conscious information will be discovered some time during
the next 10 years.  This will eventually lead to what will be called
"effing" or communication of such qualities between minds.  (as in oh THAT'S
what salt tastes like.)  I predict this will turn out to be by far the most
significant scientific discovery to date.  And I predict people that believe
phenomenal properties don't exist will be kicking themselves for centuries
after this for being so stupid and missing what should be so blatantly
obvious.

If you are so sure that phenomenal qualities will be nothing more than what
phlogiston was - would you care to place a wager that this discovery of
qualia will not take place some time in the next 10 years?


> 
> > these can be simulated or modeled by other abstract phenomena - the
> > simulations isn't like the real thing.  We could be brains in vats, and
> the
> 
> Ich kann, so zu sagen, mein chemisches Wasser nicht halten und muss ihnen
> sagen,
> dich Harnstoff machen kann, ohne dazu die Niere oder ueberhaupt ein Thier,
> sey
> es Mensch oder Hund, noethig zu haben.
> 

Sorry, I don't understand German.  I tried an auto translator but it still
didn't make much sense.  I wish I knew what you were saying here.

> Allright, just remove consciousness, and feel the simulation with zombies.
> Torture them all you will, they won't feel a thing.

Yes, this is exactly what I am talking about when I say they can simulate it
without the immoral suffering of phenomenal suffering.  Again, since we do
experience phenomenal suffering - this is evidence against us being a
simulation since they would just do it without qualia.


Brent Allsop