[extropy-chat] Extropy and libertarianism

Thu Sep 8 12:17:06 UTC 2005

Okay, Hal.  Let's see how Max answers.

But for myself, the principles are in direct alignment with extropic 
thinking, critical thinking and rational optimism.

NOT any political viewpoint.

And that is my 2 cents.

If you want to fire me, go ahead.

But I will not change my course of thinking because I believe it is 
extropic, not bogged down by any one political.

Natasha Vita-More

At 01:26 AM 9/8/2005, you wrote:
>I know this is a controversial topic, and this may be an unwelcome
>contribution, but I suggest that it is reasonable and appropriate
>to look at the Principles of Extropy and consider what they say about
>various political systems.  My reading of the principles of Open Society
>and Self-Direction is that they point very much towards a libertarian
>approach to political life.
>
>What is it that distinguishes libertarianism from other political systems?
>As I use the term, I see it as that political system which minimizes the
>use of coercion and compulsion and allows individuals the maximum freedom
>to make their own decisions about their lives.  In a libertarian society,
>people are free to make mutual volutary agreements about social and
>economic matters.  For example, there is no minimum wage, because that
>prevents people from agreeing to work for less than a centrally-defined
>pay rate.  People are not taxed to pay for social insurance or welfare
>systems, because again that interferes with people's freedom to make
>mutual agreements as they see fit.
>
>Now, I think we have a number of participants here who would object to
>the formation of a society organized around these principles.  They would
>view such a society, without the economic protections which have become
>nearly ubiquitous in the modern world, as barbaric, primitive and unfair.
>They would, in particular, consider it inconsistent with the principles
>of Extropy.  It is this question which I want to address.
>
>The current version of the Principles of Extropy at
>http://extropy.org/principles.htm is in my opinion a well written document
>that lays out an attractive philosophy which is highly appropriate for
>our fast changing world.  Max More has done a great job at creating a
>framework for dealing with issues in a dynamic and flexible way, while
>holding to the concept of maximizing human potential which has always
>been the core of Extropian beliefs.
>
>Some readers have suggested that the Principles have been "watered down"
>or altered to minimize a supposed excessive degree of libertarianism,
>but I don't see that at all.  In my reading the Principles are in fact
>strongly libertarian and amply demonstrate the commitment to freedom and
>voluntary, non-coercive arrangements that are the core of libertarianism.
>
>The Principles are long and I don't have room to take them apart sentence
>by sentence.  I would invite those who disagree to look through the
>Principles and find support for minimum wage restrictions and welfare
>taxation, or other forms of social coercion and control.  Here are a
>few quotes which demonstrate the libertarian flavor of the Principles,
>followed by my comments.  From Open Society:
>
>"The freedom of expression of an open society is best protected by a
>social order characterized by voluntary relationships and exchanges."
>
>This is essentially the defining principle of libertarianism.
>
>"Within an open society individuals, through their voluntary consent,
>may choose to submit themselves to more restrictive arrangements in
>the form of clubs, private communities, or corporate entities. Open
>societies allow more rigidly organized social structures to exist so
>long as individuals are free to leave."
>
>Free to leave is the operative word here.  Coercive government
>restrictions cannot be escaped.
>
>"Even where we find some of those choices mistaken or foolish, open
>societies affirm the value of a system that allows all ideas to be tried
>with the consent of those involved."
>
>A good example would be someone who chooses to work for less than what we
>think he should, or without the health and safety protections we think
>he should demand.  The libertarian perspective endorsed here calls on
>us to restrain our tendency to enforce limits on people who choose to
>make what such foolish choices.
>
>"Extropic thinking conflicts with the technocratic idea of coercive
>central control by insular, self-proclaimed experts."
>
>And yet that is exactly what we have with economic regulations of the
>type I am discussing.  The minimum wage is set on the basis of some
>economist's or sociologists ideas of what constitutes a just amount.
>It is set via coercive central control, exactly what Max warns against.
>
>"In open societies people seek neither to rule nor to be
>ruled. Individuals should be in charge of their own lives."
>
>A perfect capsule summary of libertarianism.  But let me quote the end
>of this paragraph, which strikes a different tone:
>
>"But for individuals and societies to flourish, liberty must come with
>personal responsibility. The demand for freedom without responsibility
>is an adolescent's demand for license."
>
>I certainly do not read this as an endorsement of coercive, centralized
>government control!  That would be utterly inconsistent with the points
>which are made again and again throughout.  Rather, Max is observing that
>philosophically, society will flourish when people behave responsibly.
>He is not saying therefore that society should force people to behave
>according to some centralized definition of responsible behavior.
>
>Now for some quotes from the discussion of Self-Direction:
>
>"Each individual should be free and responsible for deciding for
>themselves in what ways to change or to stay the same."
>
>While this does not directly address the economic issues above, it is
>a further reiteration of the libertarian goal of non-coercion.
>
>"It is extropic to take responsibility for the consequences of our
>choices, refusing to blame others for the results of our own free
>actions."
>
>Again this is a fundamental principle of libertarianism.  When people
>make mistakes, they take responsibility for them, they do not look to
>a paternalistic government to fix the problem for them.
>
>"Personal responsibility and self-determination are incompatible
>with authoritarian centralized control, which stifles the choices and
>spontaneous ordering of autonomous persons."
>
>"Coercion of mature, sound minds outside the realm of self-protection,
>whether for the purported 'good of the whole' or for the paternalistic
>protection of the individual, is unacceptable."
>
>Again, two very strong statements of libertarian principles.  The kinds
>of economic regulations I listed above are imposed for precisely these
>reasons, coercing people who are attempting to engage in voluntary
>relationships either for the good of the whole (as in welfare state
>taxation) or for paternalistic protection (as in the minimum wage).
>These comments perfectly exemplify the libertarianism which is implicit
>in these Principles.
>
>"We act benevolently not by acting under obligation to sacrifice personal
>interests; we embody benevolence when we have a disposition to help
>others."
>
>Taxation to help the poor is not a benevolent policy under this analysis.
>Forcing people to act under obligation to sacrifice their personal
>interests does not promote benevolence.  Only voluntary giving, the
>personal disposition to help others, is true benevolence and a true
>value to society.
>
>
>I think these quotes are enough to make an initial case.  Please, read
>the Principles yourself, especially these two, and see if you don't
>see the libertarianism which is present in virtually every part of the
>analysis and discussion.
>
>I can't account for the beliefs people have that this version of the
>Principles of Extropy has turned away from libertarianism or is somehow
>inconsistent with that philosophy.  To me, the philosophy of non-coercion
>is such a fundamental and pervasive part of the foundations of Extropian
>thinking that it is hard to imagine how people could see it otherwise.
>
>Hal Finney
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<http://www.natasha.cc/>Natasha <http://www.natasha.cc/>Vita-More
Cultural Strategist, Designer
Studies of the Future, University of Houston
President, <http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Founder, <http://www.transhumanist.biz/>Transhumanist Arts & Culture

Knowledge is the most democratic source of power.  Alvin Toffler
Random acts of kindness... Anne Herbet

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