[extropy-chat] "Dead Time" of the Brain.

[Heartland]

Heartland wrote:
"It's also important to note that atoms as 4-D objects are non-mind processes so my
conclusion that irreversible death occurs when 4-D mind object degenerates into
non-mind objects still stands."

Jeffrey wrote:
"Yes, I still fully agree with this statement.
If a mind-process is stopped, as it is in vitrification, the mind is verifiably 
absent, the "original" person is forever dead. The revived person will be a "copy", 
no argument from me.
But, I still believe that the "illusion" of continuity will be present. The 
subjective experience will not be lost. I believe that revival from suspension 
would "feel" no different than waking from a dreamless sleep."

That's exactly what would happen. I've never questioned that except this illusion 
will belong to a copy, not the original. That illusion will happen as part of a 
verifiably different *instance* of mind process than the original instance of that 
same *type* of process. As people, we are instances, not types. That's the biggest 
misconception that people bring to this kind of debate, namely, that people are 
types.

Jeffrey:
"I say this because I think that we ourselves are continually dieing in a permanent 
way already. At the end of each "round" of "life" (I can't yet say how long this 
is) we die permanently and experience *nothingness*. It is the physical substance 
of our brains (the atoms in their particular arrangement) that manifests the next 
"copy" that "occupies" our brains and our lives, and this cycle continues on and on 
until the brain is physically destroyed and cannot support a conscious mind at 
all."

This is where we disagree. I don't think we are constantly dying and I have a good 
reason to think so. You wrote: "It is the physical substance of our brains (the 
atoms in their particular arrangement) that manifests the next "copy" that 
"occupies" our brains and our lives," but it is not the arrangement of atoms that 
produces mind, it's the *activity* of matter in space and time that directly causes 
mind to emerge. If there were no atoms (theoretically) and that activity would be 
present then we would still experience life. This *activity* (mind process) never 
stops during the time interval when no signals flow through neuronal network. Why? 
Because the substance of that activity is energy and as long as we live that energy 
is being more or less conserved. When we get to the bottom of it all, it's not the 
atoms or pattern of brain structure that is the mind. We are a system of energy 
flow.


Jeffrey:
"I would just like to provide my speculations on the "experience" of permanent 
death. When the mind process stops, and the mind is absent, permanent death has 
occurred, the person has "entered" nothingness. But nothingness, is not anything 
that can be "experienced", not even in principle. Nothingness is not equivalent to 
a sensory deprivation tank. You do not "see" a black void when you die. You do not 
"hear" nothingness. You are not "frightened" by the "experience", because it is 
*not* an experience. Just remember, we have each, without doubt, already been dead 
once... the entire time before we were conceived."

Yes, I could have written this part myself.

S.