[extropy-chat] 'a process of non-thinking called faith' 2 (2)

Lee Corbin lcorbin at rawbw.com
Sat Dec 2 02:58:10 UTC 2006

Jeff---likewise, it's good to talk to you again, thanks for your generous
personal comments  :-)   For those short-sighted individualists who 
embrace Crocker's Rules, human psychology is very subtle, and I'm
very happy to remain on good personal terms with very nice and
fully civilized and courteous people like you!  :-)   If you say something
that strikes me as extremely dumb or ignorant, I'm going to stifle my
response  :-) Always have, always will, just as I know you do (thanks!).

>> > Islam has been on the defense, legitimately so, against western
>> > aggression, domination and expansion for a long time.
>> What about the entire history since 632.
> Sadly, you seem inclined (Where's your "different drummer" style on
> this subject?) to add your voice to the "All-Muslims-are-evil!"
> deracinated mob.  Why go back to the heyday off Islamic expansion?
> It's not the current day or the current state of Islam.

The recent bombings in Spain were, according to Al Qaeda, for the
purpose of furthering the struggle against the insufferable Spanish
aggression of 722 - 1492 in trying to get their country back.

>> They've changed much less than we have in the interval. In most
>> instances (except the Balkans) that Moslem armies conquered, the
>> native religion and culture got stamped out.
> If I accepted this assertion as true, which I don't,  (I seem to
> recall that Jews lived happily in Muslim societies, and were respected
> as fellow "peoples of the book" --  this one exception, to my mind,
> casts doubt, on your blanket assertion -- I would counter that most
> invading cultures replace the local religion with their own.  It's
> neither unusual nor restricted to Islam.

"Invading cultures", you say!  You seem to be of the frame of mind
that suggests it's all right to be an invading culture so long as that
culture is not yours.

> "[The Ottomans] reached their zenith of power with Suleyman the
> Magnificent whose armies reached Hungary and Austria. From the 17th
> century onward with the rise of Westem European powers and later
> Russia, the power of the Ottomans began to wane."
> http://www.barkati.net/english/#11

Yes, exactly.  Thanks.  But notice that it is all about *power*.
It has always been about power, and always will be about
power.  Except in a few historically insignicant cultures.
For example, the Quakers could afford to be not about
power because they were safely protected by the more
serious English speaking people about them.  (Actually,
it was a good deal for both: the Quaker economic prosperity
and high birth rate provided strength to the more responsible
parts of their countries who did not want to be overrun by
the Dutch or French.)

But *our* culture is now a great exception!  People like you
hold the west to an impossibly high standard. A so-called
"high standard" that dooms societies who adopt it.  And when/if
ours goes down, so does enlightenment and most of the things
you cherish.

>> What grounds do you have for thinking that *their* behavior
>> would be any different than it was, were only the military
>> positions reversed?
> None.  But the fact is the positions ARE NOT REVERSED.

Well, then quit commiting Fatal Error #4:  "The victim is virtuous."

Remember, sad as it may be to the idealists here and on this list,
history has always been about power in exactly the same way
that evolution has always been about fitness and struggle.

> You disappoint me Lee with argument so feeble: the evil of the Bush/neocon
> cabal is to be overlooked because the evil of Islam WOULD BE JUST AS
> BAD IF Islam were in some other state (more akin to its long gone
> heyday) than a vast ineffectual pre-modern provincialism.

I may not choose to dispute that the Bush/neocon position is what
you'd call evil.  But I would suggest that it may be expedient, and
that failing to take a strong stand against enemies is, in the long
run, suicide.  Imagine any Maya city-state, or American plains-Indian
tribe adopting the standards you advocate.  Would we ever have 
heard about them?  No!  Because their neighbors would have made
short work of them.

> The wife and I are enroute to our winter stomping grounds in Baja's
> East Cape region, so I'll be out of touch even more than usual.

Have a great time, Jeff!


More information about the extropy-chat mailing list