[extropy-chat] You must be willing to give up everything (2nd try)

[Michael M. Butler]

On 11/2/06, Keith Henson <hkhenson at rogers.com> wrote:
> At 09:59 AM 10/31/2006 -0800, Jef wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >While Scientology and Avatar promise (and deliver) growth within a
> >limited, internal, context, they are dangerous because they restrict
> >growth beyond their own context.  [I know, they have polished and
> >emotionally persuasive arguments to the contrary.]

I guess I should de-lurk about this. A while back, I did the Avatar
materials, got benefit from them, and didn't cult out.

YMMV, of course. I'm not going to argue or try to persuade. I'll
simply state: no one associated with Avatar has ever done anything to
restrict my growth. Believe it or don't.

My "context" does not particularly include those folks today, so I
don't see how my context can be "internal" by Jef's meaning. Maybe
they have really _sophisticated_ orbital mind control lasers?

I used to say that Avatar was the least-fscked-up human-potential
thingy I'd checked out so far -- *but* that I could say nothing about
the "Wizards" ("advanced" Avatar) material but was/am concerned about
it being somehow doctrinaire or inflexible or bogus.

Recently, I appear to have info that it is-was. Too bad.

The (re)directed attention stuff I learned to practice still works for
me. Am I kidding myself? Well, isn't everyone, where belief systems
are concerned? _And_ attention? Remember all that Psych 101 stuff
about seeing what is expected?

> I don't know that much about Avatar except it is a scientology splinter
> like EST/Landmark.

Splinter or squirrel den, it's all how you look at it.

> But I do know scientology and a *long* list of former scientologists.
>
> The main psychological mechanism used by scientology and (as far as I know,
> *all* cults) is a perversion of attention reward.

Welp. The Avatar stuff I did was mostly about (re)directing attention
and I didn't get Moonie-style-love-bombed (*or* Stockholm-syndromed)
AFAIK. So, not a lot of cult function in evidence, as such things go.
And I could run down (sorry!) a list as long as my arm of more-cultish
groups than that that I have direct experience with. Checked 'em out,
didn't drain the cup of Kool-Aid; am still standing.

WRT Avatar, I didn't get a big-assed flaming letters "CULT" readout at
any point. Nobody was vying for the honor of polishing the brightwork
on anyone's yacht (and yes, people did that for Elron and Werner,
too).

Maybe a hint of a "Stairway to Florida" with "cult?" in cursive on a
sign next to it.

When I studied, and when I reviewed, the Avatar materials, I paid
close attention to (and was annoyed by) some of the residual
terminology reminiscent of the Co$, but can report that what I did was
not dissimilar to some stuff written about by, e.g., Tarthang Tulku
(and, oddly enough, Nietzche!); and I did *not* get handed _any_ of
the Co$ hooey (based on my extensive readings regarding same, both
before and after).

The good news about Avatar's upper level seems to be that they're
*not* funneling money to the Co$, even though they're not far away in
Florida. The bad news seems to be that Harry and his close asociates
are? were? not as enlightened as they put forth. Sigh. 'Twas ever
thus. To some degree, whether due to better ethics or less-extreme
megalomania, Harry Palmer is not Elron, not by a long chalk. Does he
wish he were? Quien sabe?

I'm not gonna tell anyone else how to spend their money. And I don't
know what is *really* up with Star's Edge International, in the US,
France or elsewhere.

As someone said, the lotus growing in the sewage is still a lotus.

*shrug*

-- 
      Michael M. Butler  :  m m b u t l e r  ( a t )  g m a i l . c o m

'Piss off, you son of a bitch. Everything above where that plane hit
 is going to collapse, and it's going to take the whole building with it.
 I'm getting my people the fuck out of here."
   -- Rick Rescorla (R.I.P.), cell phone call, 9/11/2001