[extropy-chat] Rational thinking

[Jef Allbright]

Lee Corbin wrote: 
>> Lee Corbin wrote:
>>> I have another, simple question.
>>> 
>>> Were the legendary founders of the United States who 
>>> famously pledged "our lives, our Fortunes, and our 
>>> sacred honor" being irrational?
Eliezer wrote:
>> That depends on what they were trying to do, of course.  Going on 
>> their stated motives of essentially "the public utility", 
>> I'd say they did pretty damn well for the eighteenth century.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, for the first time in recorded history, 
> Eliezer Yudkowsky has declined to forcefully answer a 
> question "yes" or "no".  What sad (or happy) portent is this?

Not speaking for Eliezer, but feeling motivated to respond once again to
Lee's polemics:
My children were often frustrated that I would not give them a simple
yes/no answer, when my intention was to give them a useful answer, and
to help them see that few if any real-world issues can be assessed
separately from their context.

Similarly, the rationality of any act can be assessed only according to
its effectiveness toward achieving specified goals (creating the desired
future) within context and has no direct correspondence with good or
bad, right or wrong.

However, actions that are seen to work over increasing scope are seen as
increasingly good -- as they increasingly promote the values of the
assessing agent.

And actions that are seen to work over increasing scope are seen as
increasingly moral -- as they increasingly promote the values of the
assessing population. 

> 
> >> What is the structural difference---biases aside---between their 
> >> sacrifices and those of Kamikaze pilots or those of 
> suicide bombers?

A key difference between the sacrifices of the founding fathers and
those of the kamikaze pilots was that the founding fathers were taking
action on behalf of a wide sphere of self-identity to promote their
values into the significant future, while the kamikaze pilots were
acting within the narrow sphere of individual identity in fear of
societal pressure and dire consequences in the very near term. (Note
that the question asked about the rationality of the pilots, and not of
their commanders. Note also that we have not addressed factors of pride
or patriotism which have little overlap with the domain of individual
rational decision-making.)

Both classes of action were rational within their associated context.
The actors had no better choice given their values and their contextual
environment.

The founding father's action was more moral, intended to promote shared
social values over wide scope.  
The kamikaze pilots' action was less moral, intended to promote an
individual's values (minimize shame and suffering) over a severely
limited scope.

(Again, note that this says nothing about the rationality or morality of
the Japanese leaders actions to protect their homeland and increase
their empire.)

- Jef