[ExI] John A.. Wheeler

Thu Apr 17 07:52:54 UTC 2008

I have always thought that a large problem in quantum measurement is the 'shutter speed'. How can we measure the position of something so quick when the measurement takes so long. For example we say that an electron occupies all positions around the nucleus at any given time. To me this is like saying, We took a photograph of the 400 metre race and from the measurement we can clearly state that all the runners occupied every position around the track in each of their lanes. So we have concluded that somehow the runners must be operating at a level of physics which defies our current understanding.
The real problem only becomes apparent when someone realises the shutter speed of the camera is set to an exposure of 1 minute. In the same way, we are trying to measure the position of an electron which travels at C, when our apparatus could never hope to make a measurement quickly enough.

Just my 2 cents before I turn in for the night. Oops, it's day time again already. 24 is not enough hours! and this sleep thing just wastes my time.
Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: scerir <scerir at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 7:44
Subject: Re: [ExI] John A.. Wheeler

Damien:
 I must ask the parapsychologists if he went to heaven.
That might have a deep meaning. Since Wheeler started
he thread 'Goedel vs. Quantum', and many think it is possible
hat, from 'inside', we cannot understand how the quantum
achinery (measurement, nonseparability, ecc.) really works.
ecause the observer is an 'insider'.
-Arthur Komar, "Undecidability of Macroscopically Distinguishable
tates in Quantum Field Theory", Physical Review, 133, (1964), p. B542
Asher Peres, "Measurement of Time by Quantum Clocks", American Journal
f Physics, 48, (1980), p. 552
 Asher Peres, W.H. Zurek, "Is Quantum Theory Universally Valid?",
merican Journal of Physics, 50, (1982), p. 807
 David. Z. Albert, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
8.A, (1983), p, 249
 Asher Peres, "On Quantum-Mechanical Automata", Physics Letters,
01.A, (1984), p. 249
 Asher Peres, "Einstein, Godel, Bohr", Foundations of Physics,
5, (1985), p. 201
 Peter Mittelstaedt, "The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and
he Measurement Process", CAmbridge U.P., 1998.
 Thomas Breuer, Quantenmechanick - Ein Fall fuer Goedel?, Spectrum,
eidelberg, 1996
 Thomas Breuer, Classical Observables, Measurement and Quantum Mechanics,
h.D. Thesis, Un. of Cambridge, 1994
 Thomas Breuer, many papers at
ttp://www2.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/~tb/cms/
 Karl Svozil, "Randomness and Undecidability in Physics",
ingapore, World Scientific, 1993
"There is, to be sure, a genuine problem in the phenomenon
f quantum measurement, but I will not discuss it here. It
oncerns *introspective* systems, where subject = object so
hat the basic conception of a single subject observing an
nsemble of objects must be modified."
 David Finkelstein
n "The Physics of Logic" (in "Paradigms and Paradoxes",
d. R. G. Colodny, 1971, Un. Pittsburgh, p. 60)
"The assertion that 'we cannot signal faster than light'
mmediately provokes the question: Who do we think *we* are?
We* who can make 'measurements', *we* who can manipulate
external fields', *we* who can 'signal' at all, even if not
aster than light? Do *we* include chemists, or only physicists,
lants, or only animals, pocket calculators, or only mainframe
omputers?"
 John Bell
"In summary, let me tell a story from ten years ago, from 1979,
hich was the centenary of Einstein's birth. There were many
eetings around the world celebrating this occasion. And at one
f them in New York I met a well-known physicist, John Wheeler.
 went up to Wheeler and I asked him, 'Prof. Wheeler, do you think
here's a connection between Gödel's incompleteness theorem
nd the Heisenberg uncertainty principle?' Actually,
'd heard that he did, so I asked him, 'What connection do you
hink there is between Gödel's incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
ncertainty principle?'
his is what Wheeler answered. He said, 'Well, one day I was at the
nstitute for Advanced Study, and I went to Gödel's office, and there
as Gödel...' I think Wheeler said that it was winter and Gödel
ad an electric heater and had his legs wrapped in a blanket.
heeler said, 'I went to Gödel, and I asked him, `Prof. Gödel, what
onnection do you see between your incompleteness theorem and Heisenberg's
ncertainty principle?'. I believe that Wheeler exaggerated a little bit
ow. He said, 'And Gödel got angry and threw me out of his office!'.
heeler blamed Einstein for this. He said that Einstein had brain-washed
ödel against quantum mechanics and against Heisenberg's uncertainty
rinciple!
n print I recently saw a for-the-record version of this anecdote
Jeremy Bernstein, Quantum Profiles, Princeton University Press, 1991,
p. 140-141), which probably is closer to the truth but is less dramatic.
t said, not that Wheeler was thrown out of Gödel's office, but that Gödel
imply did not want to talk about it since he shared Einstein's disapproval
f quantum mechanics and uncertainty in physics. Wheeler and Gödel then
alked about other topics in the philosophy of physics, and about
osmology."
 G. Chaitin

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