[ExI] Pride and/or thinking superior

[Emlyn]

2008/7/10 Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca>:
> --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Well no, I don't agree with that. I think you could be
>>lost on a desert island (or be transformed into an M-Brain hanging
>>darkly in space), and still exist. If you take a more solipsistic
>>viewpoint, the rest of the universe fails to exist for you, rather than
>>the other way around.
>
> Well then we will agree to disagree.  I think I am but a mere reflection of everything I have seen, heard, tasted but I know I only know how to interpret based on others reflections.  Although you may exist on an island, if nobody ever knew you did, you wouldn't exist.

Well, I would to me, I think.

>
>>The need for acknowledgement from others is, to my mind, one of the great >binding forces that holds humanity back from what it could be.
>
> Please explain why.  IMO, pride has nothing to do with the acknowledgement of others, it has to do with the respect for others that in turn has led to pride.

Why? Ok, because that need for acknowledgement leads us to base our
estimates of self worth on perceived reactions of other people. I
think that's the primary reason that we allow ourselves to be
organised into hierarchies; because we are vulnerable to the
requirement for stroking from others (especially those we perceive as
higher in status than ourselves), and we seem to have a bug that the
less good feedback we get from others, the more we require it. So the
more we will do for less.

I think there's probably an evolutionary psychology explanation for
this willingness to submit/follow, and probably helps explain the
existence of psychopaths/narcissists more fully than just calling them
defectors or hawks - they are there because, for stability, we need
them at the top of hierarchies.

The things we evolved to do are often harmful to us poor phenotypes,
no matter how well they benefit the genome.

>
>>The dreadful hierarchical monkey tribe social structures that persist >from antiquity are firmly bedded on the need for approval from other >people.
>
> Funny that the same hierarchical monkey tribe social structures have worked for lifetimes.

Define "worked"? Do you mean they have been stable and persistent?
That's not the same thing, except for pernicious values of "worked".

> Maybe the need to change these "hierarchical monkey tribes" would be more efficient than removing them.  Groups don't exist without hierarchical positions, otherwise everyone thinks they are a boss.

Sometimes, we just think we are equal. I think many people would
disagree with you strongly that group must necessarily equal
hierarchy!

>
>>If I had to pick a simple program for finding inner peace, it would be to >free oneself from exactly that impulse. But I am not the first person to >say that, real or mythical.
>
> I agree that not everyone will like you, this has nothing to do with pride.  The need for approval falls under the category of self-confidence.

Well no, the need for approval affects self-confidence, has undue
influence I would say. They are not the same thing, though.

> Pride is the respect given to those that teach something to others.

No that is respect. Pride is internal, an emotion.

>>That said, we are social creatures, and Humans v1.0 can be
>>severely diminished creatures without social contact. But it depends
>>on the individual. Some of the greatest minds are indeed islands.
>
> Although an interesting metaphor, there is really no such thing as uniqueness.

Sure, absolutely. Saying one is self sufficient, and one is unique,
are different things.

>
>>Pride can have positive and negative connotations.
>
> Maybe but pride is supposed to be an essence of respect.  So I would start to ponder what do I respect if I where looking at finding the negative and positive.

Respect is what, and intention or feeling from one for another?
Self-respect being the reflexive form? I still maintain that pride is
internal, although you could have pride in something external I
guess... in the group.

>
>>It's good in measured doses. Without it, one can drift, unable to find
>>enough meaning to focus. Too much, and you wander into the territory of >arrogance, or jingoism, and your thoughts become resistant to change.
>
> Imho, what that means is that you are longer feeling pride. In my experience, once you wonder into the territory of arrogance the only pride you could have is the fact that you have learned to get yourself out of that position.  Which in turn is usually due to the credit of others.

Yeah, it's getting way definitional now.

>
>>In fact, I'd say pride is often part of the toolbox of
>>our more prevalent memetic infections. It's humorous really that
>>Christianity warns us against it :-)
>
> Fine.  What are these prevalent memetic infections you talk about?

Nationalism of all kinds. Religions of most varieties. Pretty much any
memeplex oriented toward group membership.

> Christianity warns about everything, from the most absurb to the most crucial, I believe that they had to jam so much information into one book that they forgot to let people know exactly what they where warning against:)

It's one of the seven deadly sins. From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

Pride (Latin, superbia)
Vanitas with her mirror. Painting by Titian, c. 1515
Vanitas with her mirror. Painting by Titian, c. 1515

Main article: Pride

In almost every list pride (or hubris or vanity) is considered the
original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the
ultimate source from which the others arise. It is identified as a
desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to give
compliments to others though they may be deserving of them,[citation
needed] and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of
proper position toward God). Dante's definition was "love of self
perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbor." In Jacob
Bidermann's medieval miracle play, Cenodoxus, pride is the deadliest
of all the sins and leads directly to the damnation of the titulary
famed Parisian doctor. In perhaps the best-known example, the story of
Lucifer, pride (his desire to compete with God) was what caused his
fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan. Vanity
and narcissism are prime examples of this sin. In Dante's Divine
Comedy, the penitent were forced to walk with stone slabs bearing down
on their backs in order to induce feelings of humility.
>
>> And, of course, why you are proud is as important as how
>> proud you are; that can reveal it as sustenance or poison. imo.
>
> No I disagree.  Having pride is something that is passed on, learned.

how so?

> Proud of yourself is self-accomplishments.  A rapist may may feel pride by raping someone but is it really the right word?

Self accomplishments are their own thing. You could be proud of your
accomplishments. You could feel proud of your new car. You could feel
proud of belonging to a group.

-- 
Emlyn

http://emlynoregan.com