[ExI] Heroism without self-sacrifice

[Lee Corbin]

PJ writes

>>     2.  relating to or characteristic of heroes of antiquity; "heroic
>>     legends"; "the heroic age"
>>
>>     3.  having or displaying qualities appropriate for heroes; "the
>>     heroic attack on the beaches of Normandy"; "heroic explorers"
>>
>>     5.  desperate: showing extreme courage; especially of actions
>>     courageously undertaken in desperation as a last resort; "made a
>>     last desperate attempt to reach the climber"; "the desperate
>>     gallantry of our naval task forces marked the turning point in the
>>     Pacific war"- G.C.Marshall; "they took heroic ...
>>
>> It's interesting that the *definitions* don't mention anything about
>> sacrificing for others.
> 
> But I'm confused.  Self-sacrifice is clearly implied in definitions 2,
> 3 & 5.

Hmm, I don't think that that is what "self-sacrifice" means to me,
and I would guess it isn't what Max meant when he started this
thread. Risk taking is (to me) not at all what self-sacrifice means.
The latter is when you *sacrifice* that is, you *deliberately* 
give up something valuable to you.  Those soldiers, explorers,
heros of antiquity all wanted to sacrifice nothing---except perhaps
their adversaries. They hoped to live through it, and if they got
acclaim or riches, all the better.

> The heroes of antiquity (2), Normandy (3) and the
> Mountains/Pacific (5) demonstrated it.
> 
> I'm more intrigued why this concept is such a problem for you.

Eh?  It doesn't seem to me to be a problem for me at all.  My notions 
coincide with the definitions given, (I think).  My only beef is that
(we conjecture) in recent decades heroism is taken to include
self-sacrifice as I used the term above.

> When you read fiction, do you empathize with the characters?

Of course. Very much so.  Especially when I like them.

Lee