[ExI] flds raid, was general repudiation...

[Lee Corbin]

Anna writes

> Lee wrote:
> 
>> I sincerely apologize for what I wrote...
> 
>> (I also understand that sometimes you don't 
>> distinguish between attacks upon your ideas from
>> attacks against you personally. There is indeed a
>> certain logic to that, which I'll say more about
>> sometime later.)
> 
> Thanks for the apology although it wasn't needed.

Good!  That's progress.  Thanks. It really shouldn't
have been needed, and evidently, despite my bad
guess, it turned out not to have been needed after all.

> 1) Psychologically to you believe that these girls are
>     ready to have children at 13-14 years old?

These *particular* girls?  Not being there, and having
very little actual information, I'm reduced to guessing.
(I admit this, though I fancy that few others in a 
discussion like this will make any kind of similar
admission, because extraordinarily few people
realize the huge connection between valid knowledge
and locality. See Thomas Sowell's classic "Knowledge
and Decisions.")

Now as you probably know, whether or not girls
aged 13-14 or 26-26 are "psychologically ready"
to have children depends immensely upon them,
and upon the culture they've grown up in, and
upon whatever support group that's around them.
Having a child, just from biological considerations
alone, is no trivial matter.

But from what I've heard, e.g. the testimonies on
TV from very young women who've had their
children taken away from them, they sounded to
me quite ready psychologically, FWIW. Also,
I know that it's been the practice in many cultures
practically forever for girls to have children just
as soon as they can.

> 2) Have you ever been surrounded by 13-14
>     year old girls on a regular basis (Of course I
>     mean regarding teaching, non-profit work, etc..)?

A little, when I taught school, but not a lot. (I'm
wondering, incidentally, why you're interested,
but I assume that it's relevant for you to know
for some valid reason.)

> 3) I have some knowledge of Canadian and
> American mentality when it comes to teen girl
> adolescence and I do agree that there is a fine
> line between child and young woman.

How much knowledge do you have of what it's
like to be brought up in a tightly-knit polygamous
community? I presume you are speaking of middle
class white people here when you speak of Canadians
and Americans. But I'm getting in the way
of you getting to your question.

> What I have a problem with is the manipulation
> that allows these older men to take advantage of
> the situation.  What if a young girl growing up in
> that environment doesn't want to?  The programming
> is there yet they just don't want to.  Do you think
> they can just up and leave?

I don't know. Normally, however, children have an
immense difficulty escaping the clutches of their
parents, and so I would assume that the same would
be true here. Do you have evidence that young girls
growing up in this environment often want to escape?

> It is the same circumstance as a 13 year old boy
> that has to grow up with an alcoholic parent 
> What if removed from that environment what
> makes you so sure that the child wouldn't flourish?

I don't know. In fact, I am far from sure. You and I
cannot possibly know about any particular case,
unless we have been or are personally involved. And
I don't think that we should try to generalize an answer
here. We shouldn't be in the business of legislating
solutions based upon our intuitions. It should be left to
the people most closely connected to the situation.
Again, I would refer you to "Knowledge and Decisions".
Life and people are just too complicated to go about
generalizing and then applying the results to particular
individuals, but *especially* if we have a hankering
to begin employing force.

> 4) I know many women in their 30's who are currently
>     having children.  Shouldn't a girl have a choice [about
>     when she wants] to pro-create?

It sounds like a good idea to me in general. But the
particulars could disturb me. Suppose a 13 year old
girl of your acquaintance suddenly wants to have a
baby. Should her parents allow it? I'm not sure that
in cases like this the wishes of people under legal age
(e.g. 18) ought to be respected.

> The option should be there.  By installing these
> preconceived notions how does this better society?

It may be disastrous in some particular cases to allow
a 13 year old girl to have a baby. But again, you and
I cannot say. It must be left to the people close to any
particular situation. We need to learn to mind our own
business in this area, as is so very many other areas.

> What can a 13-14 year old girl teach a child? 

I don' t know. But then, I don't know what a 21 year
old woman can teach a child either.

> Doesn't this just lead to children having children? 

Yes.

> 5) I've known many women in there 20's and 30's
> who have reported just knowing when they were
> ready to have children (as well as hearing about
> the sexual peek of the 30's..lol). I have never heard
> a 13-14 year old tell me she was ready to be a mother.
> Don't you think there is some kind of logic behind that?

No, I don't think that there is much logic behind that.
I think that you probably haven't known many
people raised in different cultures or raised in groups
like the FLDS. (I certainly haven't either, but I do
know that huge differences exist among various groups.)

> I figure I might as well ask questions as I don't seem
> very good at responding:)

Pshaw!  :-) 

> Thanks for taking the time Lee.  

You're very welcome, Anna.

Lee