[ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)

Stathis Papaioannou stathisp at gmail.com
Sat Jun 6 12:21:54 UTC 2009

2009/6/6 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims have
> killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual
> justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way.
> Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??  How
> many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??  Please
> let me know...

Even one American death is too much if the invasion was evil and
unnecessary; but as Stefano said, the correct comparison is with the
number of American civilians killed by Iraqis on American soil.

> Americans (even those in uniform) tend to feel very sad about innocents
> getting killed due to the fighting...

Whereas the soldiers of other, evil countries are happy when they kill
civilians in a country they are invading.

> And the Iraqi people have scratched
> their heads in amazement as American troops accused of war crimes have (at
> least sometimes) been tried for their wrongdoing and convicted.  They were
> not used to seeing such things during the reign of Saddam (unless we are
> talking about kangaroo courts to destroy Saddam's enemies).

In occupied Europe, the Germans sometimes tried and punished soldiers
who committed crimes against the local population. They also treated
prisoners of war relatively well, at least compared to the Japanese.
But this doesn't excuse the fact that they were the invaders, and
responsible for the deaths of millions who tried to resist the
invasion or got in the way, as well as millions of their own soldiers.

> The United States is a vastly more powerful nation then Iran or
> Afghanistan, and as great powers tend to do, exercises that power in the way
> they see fit.  Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold and it was only a matter
> of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist
> organizations and became a major supporter of them.  I just wish Pres. Bush
> had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out,
> but obviously not on a false pretense regarding WMD.

So every country that might at some point pose a potential threat to
the US, however slight, is liable to be invaded?

> But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the
> combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S.
> possesses?  I shudder at the very thought...
> A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death toll
> ten times (or a hundred times...) what we have had due to mass executions,
> concentration/labor camps, the firebombing of entire cities, starvation,
> rape, body organ stealing, disease, and death march deportations.  The
> United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely.

The Soviet war in Afghanistan was similar in type and scale to the
American war in Vietnam. Do you have any evidence suggesting that the
Americans behaved better than the Soviets?

> America has it's definite shortcomings, but at least we have values and
> principles to aspire to (despite sometimes veering off in the wrong
> direction, until course corrections are made), instead of merely always
> pursuing power for it's own sake and with no concern for human life and
> liberty, which is the approach of our rivals.

Every invader claims to have these virtues. Much of the rest of the
world (disinterested bystanders, as it were, not just the aggrieved
parties) feels that America lacks them in its dealings with other

> At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root out
> very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and who
> want to cripple Western civilization.  Yes, it's terrible that so many
> innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the
> insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover
> & impromptu human shields.

And I suppose that the Iraqi invaders would say it was terrible that
innocent Americans had to die due to the American insurgents hiding
among the population, when all the Iraqis wanted to do was make sure
that America would never be able to threaten other countries again.

Stathis Papaioannou

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