[ExI] To Arms!

Fred C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com
Mon Mar 30 08:54:33 UTC 2009

On Sun, 2009-03-29 at 21:32 -0700, Lee Corbin wrote:
> Fred writes
> > Lee Corbin wrote:
> > 
> >> But it's either that or eventually perish. France, for example,
> >> needs to do what it would instantly have done in any century
> >> before the 20th, namely expel its Muslim population. It's
> >> either that or cease eventually to have a modern western
> >> society at all!
> > 
> > If ever there is created a collection of ridiculous and completely
> > disgusting statements to have ever been posted to this list then the
> > above would surely be near the top of the list.
> You have such a charming way of weaving these logically
> impeccable and airtight arguments.
> Oh. Oops. There wasn't an argument there. Nor even an iota of reasoning!

There is no argument in the sentence you quoted because the sentence is
not intended as an argument; what I wrote was a prediction.  And
entwined in that prediction was a description; I described your
statement as ridiculous and completely disgusting.  You were looking for
an argument where none was intended. 

> > Expelling the Muslim population would violate long standing principles
> > of freedom of religion and rule of law and equal protection under the
> > law.
> Oh yes, I admitted that. Sometimes in order to survive you
> have to challenge long standing principles of freedom. 

You are assuming what would remain after the expulsion would be worth
having.  What group would they expel next; the Jehovah's Witnesses?  

> What
> happened to the guy I used to know who proudly exhibited
> the sticker "Question Authority" on the bumper of his car?

What?  You are confused again.  I have never had a "Question Authority"
bumper sticker on my car.  And even if I had such a sticker it would not
be relevant to this discussion.  And if you are somehow trying to make
the implication that the idea that France should expel all Muslims is in
any way like questioning authority then you are simply deluded.

> > And where would they be expelled to?  Since many are French
> > citizens where would they be sent?

I have eliminated a couple of lines to get to this:

> If the traditional non-Muslim French mobilized four
> million men, they could put the Muslims anywhere they
> wanted this side of the moon. They could distribute
> it over any set of non-nuclear Arab countries they
> wanted (France, you recall, has long had The Bomb).

First not all Muslims are Arabs.  Second what is this about the Bomb, by
which I assume you mean nuclear weapons.  So what if some country
decided they could not take a bunch of French speaking people; what
would the French do bomb the entire country?  Have you seriously thought
about what you are saying?  Are you really implying that France should
threaten the use of nuclear weapons?  Are you out of your mind?  Third
you say "they could put the Muslims anywhere they wanted this side of
the moon" do you really mean that?  Could they put them in your living

> > I really wonder if anyone advocating expelling the
>  > Muslim population from France has actually given
>  > even a second of serious thought to the matter but
>  > instead just simply spewed forth with a load of
>  > vicious unreasoned bilge.
> And what happened to the Fred C. Moulton I knew twenty
> years ago who always employed carefully reasoned non-
> emotional argument instead of insult (and in this case,
> absurd insult)?
> And do you really want to stand by the guess (for what
> else could it be?) that I have not spent more than one
> second of serious thought about this?

Based on what you wrote I saw no evidence of serious thought.  And if
you remember this is not the first time I have heard you espouse ideas
about France expelling the Muslims.

> And how dare you say that *no* one who believes oppositely
> from you on this issue (or on any issue) has not spent more
> than a very brief time thinking it through? How do you know
> that? Consulting your gut again? To me, it smacks of not
> a little arrogance to so cavalierly dismiss other people's
> seriousness and their ability to reason.

Frankly at this point I don't care if you think I am arrogant or not. 

> > I am tempted to ask if during the proposed expulsion if the Muslim
> > population will be put in railway cars and if the use of cattle prods
> > will be obligatory or mandatory.
> My guess? (For, I admit, I haven't worked out the *logistics*
> themselves in any detail, though as explained above, it could
> not be that difficult). Naturally the cattle prods would be
> used only if necessary. Railroad cars sound like a great way
> to get them to ports on the Mediterranean, by the way.

The idea of innocent people being jabbed with cattle prods, separated
from friends, sent to a foreign country and have their lives disrupted
is totally disgusting.

> > However I will refrain from asking those questions
> Oops. Too late. Question not un-asked in time!
> > but I will ask if anyone seriously thinks that expelling
> > the Muslims from France would really make any progress
>  > in generating tolerance and progress in Europe or
> > world wide.
> My answer is no, it would *not* make progress in generating
> tolerance. But it would *save* a great deal of the present
> tolerance and rule of law always exhibited by modern European
> nations 

This is an assertion with no evidence.  And the assertion is not even
well formed.

> and never (or very, very rarely) exhibited by Muslim
> nations. If you're going to lose, it's better to lose a little
> than a lot. John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, and
> Franklin Roosevelt understood this very well.

Of course this assumes that one can tell the difference between losing a
little and losing a lot.

> > Or would it cause a further conflict and suspicion?
> Indeed it would. Other non-assimilatable groups around
> the world would get very nervous, and very soon.
> I say "good"! Assimilate or else!

This is the Extropy-Chat email list and I would have expected that
participants would have basic Extropian outlooks.  The idea of any kind
of forced assimilation is not Extropian; it is anti-Extropian.


> Lee
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