[ExI] Religions and violence.

Mirco Romanato painlord2k at libero.it
Fri Aug 6 20:01:02 UTC 2010

Il 03/08/2010 21.13, samantha ha scritto:
> Stefano Vaj wrote:
>> 2010/8/2 Jebadiah Moore <jebdm at jebdm.net>:

>>> But it's pretty clear that it's worthwhile to view a community as
>>> an entity (due to various emergent phenomena), and that a lot of
>>> people do view communities this way, and that people *value* 
>>> communities this way.  In particular, they seem invested in 
>>> trying to maintain the stability, influence, and "essence" (as 
>>> they perceive it) of the communities they belong to, both during
>>>  their own lifetimes and into the future.

>> My own ideas fit rather well in your description.

>> But I am waaaaay reluctant in admitting that, say, a community 
>> could and should be kept legally or ethically responsible for the 
>> behaviour of its members.

> For damn good reason it should not.  The individual is the unit of 
> ethics and moral responsibility.  To hold and individual liable for 
> what she did not do is utterly broken.

This is in principle correct.
But we must look to the details.

The community (as a collection of individuals) must dissociate from the
acts of the individual they don't want be responsible. This can be done
with acts or words. Sometimes the latter are sufficient, but often the
first are needed.

The point where the Muslims are lacking is this. Their dissociations are
words rich and deeds poor. And also the words often, when closely
analyzed, are two-tongued, with words that can be interpreted in
different ways by different people. on purpose.

And then, so many that are labeled as "moderate" when looked a bit
closer than show they are moderated only in the tone, not in what they
would do and allow others to do without raising a finger to dissent or

For example, the renowed Egypt's University of Al-Azhar, maybe the most
important religious education university of all of the Sunni world,
concord with many discrimination measure against Muslims changing their
religion and not-Muslims and many of its teachers teach these


> Author: al-Azhr, the Egyptian Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs
> This Fatawa describes how an Egyptian man turned apostate and the 
> subsequent punishment prescribed for him by the Al-Azhr Fatawa 
> council. The following translation is a rough guide:
> In the Name of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful.
> Al-Azhr Council of Fatawa. This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed 
> Darwish and brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German 
> nationality. A man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is 
> Egyptian married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the 
> husband would join the Christian faith and doctrine.
> 1) What is the Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the 
> punishments prescribed for this act? 2) Are his children considered 
> Muslim or Christian?
> The Answer:
> All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and salutations on 
> the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed, his family and all 
> of his companions. Thereafter: This man has committed apostasy; he 
> must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be 
> killed according to Shariah. As far as his children are concerned,
> as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after
> they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they
> are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must
> be killed and Allah knows best.
> Seal of Al-Azhr Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr. Abdullah 
> al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد‎)
> 23rd September 1978


> Dear questioner, May Allah grant you guidance and illumination for
> bearing with us and sending us this good question. Thank you very
> much for the confidence in our service and we hope you receive our
> answer objectively.
> Coming to your question on the basis of the punishment of apostasy,
> we would like to start with the following words of the prominent
> Moroccan scholar Sheikh Abdul Bari Az-Zamzamy:
> "It should be noted that Islam never compels any person to accept it
> or embrace its teachings. It gives the freedom of thinking to people,
> with full respect to their mentalities and way of thinking. However,
> Islam is not a man-made religion that is subject to scrutiny or
> biased criticism that is based on mere suspicion, since it was
> originated by Allah, the Supreme Creator of all minds and
> mentalities. In addition, apostasy causes a total disruption and
> confusion in the Muslim community, and thus, a severe punishment was
> set for it to deter anyone from thinking of it. It was originally put
> into force following the Jewish conspiracy against Islam. The details
> of that conspiracy were simply mass conversion to Islam and then mass
> apostasy. The main ill aim was to cause confusion and to lead people
> astray. Thus, the punishment was set as a precautionary measure to
> stop all these offenses."
> Speaking of the authority of the punishment and its being genuine and
> based on the authentic sources of Islam, Sheikh `Attiyah Saqr, former
> Head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:
> "It is not right to deny the punishment of apostasy claiming that it
> has not been reported in the Qur'an, because it has been recorded in
> the mutawatir (Hadith which has been reported by at least four of the
> Companions in different times and places in a way that make a person
> sure that such Hadith is not fabricated) and the non-mutawatir Sunnah
> of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). Hudud (Islamic
> punishment specified for certain crimes) may, of course, be based on
> the non-mutawatir Sunnah."
> Detailing the issue and showing some of the evidence for the
> punishment of apostasy, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf
> Al-Qaradawi, states:
> "All Muslim jurists agree that the apostate is to be punished.
> However, they differ regarding the punishment itself. The majority of
> them go for killing; meaning that an apostate is to be sentenced to
> death.
> Many authentic Hadiths have been reported in this regard. Ibn `Abbas
> reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said,
> "Whoever changes his religion, you kill him." (Reported by all the
> group except Muslim, and at-Tabarani also reported it with a sound
> chain of narrators. Also recorded in Majma` Az-Zawa'id by
> Al-Haythamiy.)
> There is also the Hadith of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (peace and
> blessings be upon him) said, "The blood of a Muslim individual who
> bears witness that there is no god but Allah and that I am the
> Messenger of Allah, is not to be shed except in three cases: in
> retaliation (in murder crimes), married adulterers (and
> adulteresses), and the one who abandons his religion and forsakes the
> Muslim community." (Reported by the Group)
> The actual example of one of the greatest Companions, `Ali ibn Abi
> Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) gives credit to this also. He
> himself carried out the punishment on some people who had deified
> him. He gave them three days respite to repent and go back to their
> senses. When they proved adamant, he put them to fire.”
> Read more:
> http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503547222&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar#ixzz0vrBskujB

>> Say, as in "they shall pay for what they have done until the
>> umpteenth generation".

> Yet another pseudo-religious hideous thought to be sure.

Well, at the time when it come up it was a big improvement; before of it
there was no temporal limit.

Anyway, as you can read in the fatwa I cited, there is not a problem, in
Islam, with the umpteenth generation. They simply kill the offspring if
they don't bow fast enough.

Now, if the Muslims community don't want be bundled together with their
shahids and jihadists, they must say with clear words that they don't
support these ideas. That their religion is against these rules. And
they must actively reject association with and refuse to help these
pious killers that say they are doing it for Islam. AND they must not be
caught telling this in English and the reverse in Arab to other Muslims.

Anyone that is caught doing so is unreliable and, after too many of them
are caught, they all can be considered unreliable.

The same happenend in Iwo Jima and Okinawa. After a few Japaneses faked
their surrender to be able to close in with the US soldiers and kill
them, the other US soldiers learned the lesson and killed any and all
Japanese soldier that tried to close in to surrender in some improper
way (usually not completely naked).

The blame of the killing of the real surrenders is on the Japaneses that
don't respected the laws of war.

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*Mirco Romanato*

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