[ExI] POST-SCARCITY SYMBOLS Launched (defeat despair, create utopia, share hope).

John Grigg possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
Sat Sep 11 23:22:06 UTC 2010

On 9/10/10, Singularity Utopia <singularity.utopia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Samantha, and others, a primitive brain naturally has a poor grasp of
> possibilities. Primitive brains naturally grasp reality poorly.

Primitive brains in *primitive/backward/greedy times* may grasp future
possibilities with difficulty.  But a primitive brain may also go too
far in thinking a totally utopian future awaits everyone within the
relatively near future...

>A good
> example
> of how brainpower limits comprehension is this: imagine a human trying to
> explain to a cat or dog the nature of nanotechnology and how nanotechnology
> could make it easier for humans to travel to the moon or to Mars.

I would say a better example would be a human scientist trying to
teach such things to a chimp or ape via sign language.

> super-intelligent-AI is created we will be like cats or dogs; we cannot
> fully
> comprehend future possibilities but with imagination we can see how our
> primitive worries will be completely solved. We will not actually  be like
> cats
> or dogs because we will evolve rapidly. From dogs we can transform into
> gods.

Merging our biological brains into cybernetic links or uploading human
consciousness into cyberspace may prove much harder than simply from
scratch creating artificial general intelligence.  And so non-human
super-intelligences may "get there first" and make sure they obtain
and maintain positions of dominance over transhumanity.  I hope
Eliezer Yudkowsky and others are successful with their "friendly AI"
studies, but they may not be...

> My example of the free Ubuntu software verses pricey MS software was an
> example
> of how we are moving towards Post-Scarcity... software is easily replicated
> and
> the limits on replication  are decreasing, we are approaching limitless
> software
> replication: post-scarcity. When millions of people download a video each
> day
> from YouTube we can see how that free data is transcending scarcity; there
> is a
> plentiful amount of data but it is not yet Post-Scarcity.

> MNT-3D-printing
> becomes widespread, very competent, then millions of people will download
> products or food, which will be constructed via EXTREMELY efficient usage of
> resources for very little cost, this will be another step towards
> Post-Scarcity

And that will be a wonderful day!  : )

> but similar to the free operating system Ubuntu it won't actually be
> Post-Scarcity but merely a step closer.

I'm really doubtful that we will ever truly achieve a full
post-scarcity economy (for reasons explained in my previous posting),
but I do think we will eventually develop a society where no one will
be horribly deprived in the ways we see today.  Poverty, disease, lack
of transportation, and educational deprivation will be a very distant
memory for even the most humble old stock human.  In polite company it
may be considered shudderingly rude to even speak of our times and the
crude conditions we lived in...

> You may doubt that we will ever create a brain 12 orders of magnitude faster
> (or
> greater) and generally more powerful than our own brains, but when we do we
> will
> not be creating something different to ourselves we will be reinventing
> ourselves, we will become super-beings, we will transcend our human
> beginnings:
> this concept of  Transhumanism can seem weird but in 10 or 20 years  people
> will
> have a better grasp upon how humans are evolving. We will become
> super-beings if
> we want to.

Uh..., S.U., you are preaching to the choir here! lol  But with
exponentional leaps in human intelligence, we just may be creating
people who in many ways truly are different from ourselves.  And most
likely/unfortunately with the lizard brain still in place!  Please
read "Understand" by Ted Chiang.  Science fiction can be an excellent
tool at times to explore various futurist/transhumanist ideas.

And for quite some time, only those with lots of money and/or the
right governmental connections, will get to greatly upgrade their
intelligence.  Don't just assume such advances will soon end up on the
shelf of your local grocery store! lol  A "Lawnmower Man" scenario
could be quite probable.

> Sometimes it can be difficult to see how technology advances
> quicker
> each year and it will probably only be with hindsight that people look back
> to
> this point in history as a crucial period regarding accelerating change. The
> growth of processing power is accelerating. Our grasp of the world is
> accelerating. The Singularity is coming. INFINITY is entirely possible.

I largely agree.

> Humans
> who wish to remain unchanged/primitive will be free to do so. There will no
> scarcity of universes where everyone can exist however they desire. Do you
> think
> the creation of matter and universes is difficult for a
> supremely-intelligent-being? Creating a universe would probably be as easily
> as
> creating a sandwich if your brainpower is sufficiently large. There will be
> no
> scarcity of matter. Virtual reality will become indistinguishable from
> reality.
> Virtual worlds and real worlds  will both be utterly controllable to satisfy
> the
> desires and needs of anybody and everybody. At one point in our history a
> primitive computer was the size of an entire room but today we have much
> much
> powerful computers that are comparatively tiny. As computing power grows our
> computers become smaller. The concept of a Jupiter sized brain (Mbrain) is a
> primitive notion because massive computers in the future will not need to
> actually be physically massive.

Whether a post-Singularity AGI can truly take on the role of a god in
terms of tunneling into other universes or creating new ones is yet to
be seen.  We may find even our super-seed AGI find themselves limited
in what they can do.  Or it may take even them centuries or even
millennia to fully figure things out.

I admit to enjoying the "Singularity in a box" scenario where a
self-improving seed AI within hours/days/weeks of becoming sentient,
transforms humanity into a wonderful utopian society (via the
"techno-rapture") and takes on the role of a loving and nurturing
"techno-god."  But things may never happen as some hope.

> Humans can do impossible things. From putting men on the Moon to overcoming
> Black slavery and electing a Black President. We continually change the
> nature
> of what is possible. Humans can grasp reality mistakenly, therefore we may
> think
> our Earth is the center of our solar system or that Post-Scarcity is
> impossible.
> We are evolving. Keep an open mind. Reality is a bit like the scene in
> Ghostbusters where a giant marshmallow man is created.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stay_Puft_Marshmallow_Man

I really don't think this was the best example you could have come up
with...  And what if a "bad Singularity" results with an AGI taking on
the form of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man as it destroys the human
race?!! lol  We will then need to boot up rival AGI's to take the form
of the Ghostbusters squad!  And do you really want an artificial
intelligence based on Bill Murray's character from that movie?? hee

> You create the future via your desires. Your expectations skew  you
> perceptions
> thereby forcing you to create reality according to your expectations.
> Really...

LOL!!!  S.U., uhm...., you just did a great job of describing yourself!!  ; )

> you should read up on the concept of self-fulfilling prophecy. Expect
> utopia.
> There are no nefarious people prohibiting Post-Scarcity.

No "nefarious people?"  Oh, you poor ignorant babe in the woods!  When
nanotech gets to the point where it looks like it may eventually
really challenge the control of the rich and powerful who dominate our
current economic system, they will take the steps necessary to put it
under *their* control.

They will make sure you get a bill for the power and matter you use up
with your "anything machine."  And they will of course carefully
monitor and censor the things you want to crank out of your nanotech
manufacturing device.  Oh, and S.U., don't get any ideas about making
a starship and running away!  They won't like that and will takes
steps to stop you...

>You are responsible
> for
> reality. You create reality. The only limit to Post-Scarcity is yourself. If
> you
> choose to see nefarious people in the world then that is your choice...

The nefarious people are out there.  But hopefully good folks around
the world can network together and manage to make the necessary
positive changes.  It will not be easy, but it can be done...

> Imagine
> you are asleep dreaming but instead of dreaming about pleasant things you
> dream
> about monsters, pain, and suffering. Dreams are a good example of how people
> create reality. Theoretically we have the power to dream whatever we want.
> Each
> night we could dream about the most fabulous utopia where we enjoy ultimate
> pleasures. Our dreams are totally inside our heads but we fail to appreciate
> how
> we have the reality to control our dreams, therefore we sometimes dream
> about
> unpleasant things. Our failure to control our dreams is similar to our
> control
> over reality.

>The world is exactly the way you want it to be
> (subconsciously).

I disagree with your last line because it comes across as very "New
Agey."  But I do agree that at least up to a point we do help to
create our own reality with our thoughts.  A negative thought could
stop a man from attending grad school (which might have lead to a
great career) or asking a woman on a date (resulting in a long and
happy marriage).  And so positive thoughts can spark incredible change
when *followed up by appropriate actions.*

S.U., you remind me of the woman who created the book and video called
"The Secret."  She went on and on about visualization and positive
thinking, but the "taking action" part was hardly mentioned.

> The world is your dream. I choose to dream of utopia. I know you are not
> nefarious, nobody is nefarious, and I know you will soon believe without any
> doubt that Post-Scarcity is possible.

There are some truly greedy, vicious, power-hungry, uncaring, and even
murderous human beings in this world.  If your dream is to come true,
you MUST come to terms with the fact that some people are bad and will
try to twist your fondest hopes into a system of tyranny and fear.

But I do believe that compared to what we have now, a "near-utopian"
society is very possible, but probably only if we work hard for it.  I
don't ever see a true utopian civilization existing, at least where
human beings are involved! LOL  But perhaps as we self-directedly
evolve, we can create something even better than what we even now
dream about.

> I know you will believe that reality is infinite, without any limits
> whatsoever,
> because your mind is limitless.

I believe that we may find other dimensions or even create them, but
at the same time sentient life will fill them up & use them up, at
record rates!  We will have to put restraints on ourselves.  And don't
forget that eventually we will encounter other intelligences out
there, and that will create even more limits, as well as competitions.

>The positive feedback will feedback to
> create
> "eternal positivity" and the positivity will be immensely positive. The
> future
> will be infinitely positive.

I am not so fully convinced.  But I do like Eliezer Yudkowsky's "fun theory..."


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

> Regarding my name I would say, what's in a name? A rose by any other name
> smells
> just as sweet. Utopia  is the  sweetest rose.

Okay then, I'm going to call you "S.U." for short! lol  : )

> Believe! Dream! Seize the limitless power of reality! I know you will soon
> begin
> to believe in utopian Post-Scarcity. You can see it happening by 2045 at the
> latest... I know.

I'm so glad that we finally have a time traveler on the Extropy list!!!

>I can see your mind changing because I see my own mind
> changing. I can see you dreaming. This is our dream. We dream of utopia!

We do dream of utopia.  But some of us are too scared to admit it to
ourselves and others that we have such fond hopes for the future.

> This is
> our reality. This is science. This is technology. This is existence. This IS
> reality. You are alive.

Positive affirmations can be a good thing.  But the Singularity is
still probably decades off, and some of the older people on this list
(or those who get cancer, or mangled in a car accident, etc.,) will
never see it!  I'm just young enough that I stand a good chance of
witnessing it, but even if I don't, I think of my little nephews and
all the other people who deserve to live in such a wonderful world.

John  : )

> Singularity Utopia.

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