[ExI] don't let your guard down, not for a minute...

John Clark jonkc at bellsouth.net
Sun Sep 12 16:42:56 UTC 2010

On Sep 10, 2010, at 11:20 PM, giovanni santostasi wrote:

> "Without talking about celebrities in every field that are supported with lavish rewards by the capitalistic system simply because they are useful to distract and entertain so people don't have to think seriously about their alienation."

I have no idea what distracting people "so people don't have to think seriously about their alienation" means, but it sounds nice, just the thing to make you seem intelligent and entertain the politically correct crowd. But entertainment is a very important skill, if you could do it as well as Madonna or Justin Bieber you'd get paid as much as they do, but you can't so you aren't. It seems very paternalistic of you to tell others that you are wiser than they are and forbid them from spending their own hard earned money on these entertainments if they so wish.   

> "The ideal system has been obtained up to a certain point at smaller scales." 

I'm not sure what you're referring to, hippy communes, monasteries, apocalyptic cult compounds? None of them were ideal from my point of view and few of them lasted very long. One that did last is the Amish, but I doubt that is a model many on the Extropian list would wish to emulate. 

> "there have been many communes that have been peaceful and creative places where to live and grow."

I am skeptical of that assertion, but my opinion is not important, if you wish to start a socialistic commune then do so, I don't have the slightest objection, all I ask is that you don't force me to join. Meanwhile I will continue with my capitalistic practices and in a few years we can compare notes and see who is richer and who is freer and see if the trail of refugees is headed your way or my way. I'm pretty sure I know how it would turn out, but feel free to prove me wrong. 

> "I cannot believe that you are putting down my assertion about an ideal society based on the possibility of better human beings, I thought this is what the essence of what transhumanism is."

The essence of transhumanism is that sometime in the next century the smartest beings on the planet will be much much smarter than the creatures that live on that rock now, and those future beings will not be human, they will be transhuman, hence the name. The essence of transhumanism is not that a Jupiter Brain will have political opinions similar to that of Giovanni Santostasi, or even of John K Clark.
> "All what I'm saying is that Marxism could work when people are more evolved. What is wrong with that statement?"

Well in the first place "more evolved" is a statement so ambiguous as to be totally meaningless. In the second place natural Evolution works too slowly to be a significant factor in the future of humanity; and even if it was I don't see why a gene for producing more children would make communes less problematic, I can't find even a hint that people who have lots of children do better under communism. 
You might try to use genetic engineering to make a race of selfless drones, but even then it wouldn't be a stable strategy, sooner or later a mutation would happen and a individual would emerge who was not quite so selfless, and then he would soon take advantage of that and become commune leader number one.  

The basic fact about the universe is that while your happiness may be important it will never be as important as my happiness, this is just the nature of reality, and so as a result people will always try to get a better deal than the guy they're negotiating with. As someone pointed out exploitation is an integral part of capitalism, management wants to exploit labor and labor wants to exploit management, but it's a virtue not a vice that capitalism faces this truth and turns it to it's advantage, unlike comunism which pretends it doesn't exist and so when that way of life doesen't work must resort to totalitarianism for survival. Communism could only work as advertised if everybody was a saint; a fact that can be verified even from space by looking at the Korean peninsula at night. The same people the same culture the same language and both started from virtually the same point (zero) 60 years ago, but the northern part embraced communism while the southern part embraced capitalism, and now the souther part is awash in light while the north is as pitch black as the vacuum of space. 

> "There are many transhumanist documents that describe exactly how humans will be at the next level"

Not any documents that are worth a damn, anybody who claims they can describe exactly how humans will live a century or two from now is talking Bullshit, in fact anybody who thinks the resulting     transhumans will look anything like a human of today, or even be biological, is talking Bullshit.   

> "explain your ideal vision of the world because I don't get it... A world full of Bill Gates?"

You could do a lot worse, Bill Gates is smart and rich and has given away more money than any other individual Homo Sapiens has since the evolution of that species from Homo erectus, it would beat the hell out of a world full of Marx or Engels.

> "Common....  how many examples I have to give?" 


> "Should I continue?"

I think not.

  John K Clark

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