[ExI] How do we construct workable institutions and ethical behaviors?

[Jeff Davis]

I'm top posting this because it's an apology for stuff I wrote
yesterday that I regret having written.  When I reread it later I
realized that I had come to the discussion with a pissy attitude from
something earlier and unrelated, and then adopted bullying mode, not
listening and not interested in listening.  My bad.

So, as it's the holiday season and I wish everyone well.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world!"
                  Louie Armstrong


On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 5:57 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>...On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> Subject: Re: [ExI] How do we construct workable institutions and ethical
> behaviors?
>
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 8:37 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>> Jeff, this is a perfect example of what I was referring to in the
>>> earlier post.  The banks redlining wasn't about racism.  It was about
> risk control.
>
>>...Not buying it, Spike.  Risk control based on racism is offensive and not
> to be tolerated...
>
> Jeff this assumes guilt instead of making any attempt to prove guilt.  If it
> worked this way, we would not need courts or legal experts.  Guilt would
> always be assumed, and counter evidence would be useless.  I agree risk
> control based on racism is offensive.  My point is that risk control was
> (and is) done on the basis of the location of the property.  From the
> location, they can get local crime statistics, estimate risks of the
> borrower being slain or the property burning down, the risk of the property
> being seized as a meth lab, for instance.  None of that has anything to do
> with race in any way, for there is no known correlation between race and any
> of these factors.
>
>>...  When the banking industry red-lined a district, they broad-brushed
> everyone living there and denied them access to services...
>
> Agree.
>
>>... on a racial basis...
>
> Disagree.  Evidence?  The redlining was based on location of the property.
> This seems legitimate to me.  East Palo Alto was an unincorporated area with
> very little law enforcement, and that which they had was deeply corrupt.  It
> was a very dangerous area, absolutely regardless of one's race.  Investment
> in that area was risky, regardless of the race of the borrower.  I wouldn't
> do it.
>
>>...Full disclosure:  I'm a racist.  No apologies.  I have zero use for the
> American black ghetto culture.  Sure, they came from slaves...
>
> How do we know that?  Do we continue to assume for all time that African
> Americans are descended from slaves?  What if they didn't?  And what if
> non-African people did descend from slaves?  Remember we had race-based
> slavery as late as 1945, in Germany.  There may even be some former slaves
> living today.  I personally knew two of them back in the 1980s.  They had
> numbers tattooed on their arms.
>
>>...and have had a rough time...
>
> How do we know that?  Do we assume all African Americans have had a rough
> time?  For how long?
>
>  >... They have all manner of thoroughly valid explanations about how they
> got where they are.  But that's no excuse.
>  Time for them to get over it, and get on with making something of
> themselves.  Everyone's got their problems.  Best, Jeff
>
> Actually Jeff we are talking past each other.  The focus of the discussion
> is on whether or not it is legitimate for banks to loan or not loan based on
> the location of the property.  To me that is perfectly valid.  It isn't
> valid to loan or not loan based on race.  It is not legitimate for one who
> was denied a loan to assume it was based on race, when far more likely it
> was based on zip code.  If I were a banker, that's sure as hell what I would
> be looking for: the location of the property and any possible flaws that
> would make it hard to sell if it lands in my lap.
>
> spike
>
>
>
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