[ExI] Libertarianism wins again...

[Dan]

I don't know about others who fancy themselves libertarians, but my view of this is not that a libertarian society would be a paradise. Instead, I just think it'd be better along one dimension: that of coercion. It'll likely have many of the same social problems and flaws as statist societies, though a few will be absent or diminished. (You might just as well use this sort of argument against using reason and science over, say, blind obedience to authority and faith in traditional beliefs in society. Reason and science won't usher in a utopia, but they will do much than the alternatives. That they won't result in a perfect society, though, is not the issue; the issue should be whether they will result in a better society.)
 
Some of your comments here also strike me as strange. You talk about tolls, but why might not a voluntary road system use them? And, in history, there were private turnpikes. You might want to consult the work of Daniel Klein or Walter Block (though the latter tends to be too polemical for my tastes:) on this. And you seem to conflate libertarianism with free markets. In truth, libertarianism is compatible with free markets, but the core of it is individual liberty -- usually put as the non-initiation of force coupled with property rights. This doesn't necessarily mean every social interaction has to be about money exchanges and calculations. It means, however, that the ideal is that there be no initiation of force in any interaction. Thus people can work together to provide all sorts of benefits to each other or still others. They simply must resist the urge to force others to participate. That's the core of libertarianism -- not money profits or free
 markets. (Of course, the likely outcome of widespread acceptance of libertarianism would likely be widespread free markets and an end to government.)
 
I think the way you're depicted it is either you're a realist who accepts that coercion is needed sometimes (and you seem to think you should be the one using the coercion*) or one is a "starry-eyed" dreamer. I just don't see it that way. In my view, it's unrealistic even utopian to believe government (or coercion in general) is a good basis for social relations. The record of history and any decent understanding of political economy should give anyone supporting either wholesale or piecemeal coercion in society pause here. This is not, in my view, wild-eyed optimisim about some future paradise, but hardnosed realism about history and theory. Just as perpetual motion machines won't work, so the same goes for all manner of coercive policies.
 
Regards,
 
Dan
 
* A candid admission. You should be aware that some have the drive to stop people who want to force themselves on others.
From: Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
To: Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Libertarianism wins again...


Sorry I can't be as starry-eyed as some of you.  Government needs to be there to do things that couldn't be paid for or organized otherwise.  Sorry (again,) but it's true.  Countless infrastructural components of our daily lives cannot simply tune into the wondrous libertarian free-market force, because there is no cognizant demand for them. Everything that is a unitary product, people can pay for.  Some things, like highways, will never be a dollar at the local supermarket.  This is what taxes and tolls are for, because most people living in a country are too unaware of the fact that countless government-provided amenities that they use every day require money to maintain.  If you're so concerned about the evils of current-day government (which are very, very scary and apparent)--do something about it!  Go make a new government somewhere!   

Because I can guarantee your libertarian paradise will never exist.  Now, more then ever, a benevolent controlling force is needed to make sure things proceed in the right direction.  Do you not have the drive to become it?  Because I will, if you don't.
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