[ExI] riots again

Jeff Davis jrd1415 at gmail.com
Mon Sep 24 20:07:18 UTC 2012


On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:
> Il 24/09/2012 10:51, Charlie Stross ha scritto:
>
>> That kind of fundamentalist religious extremism is a
>> symptom of a local political culture where all progress towards
>> democracy and enlightenment has been exterminated for a generation.
>
>
> There was not local political culture interested in enlightenment and
> democracy. Never existed. All progress was imposed to them by external
> forces for a reason or another.

You make enlightenment and democracy into sacred icons of Western
culture, worship them, and insist that they are the be all and end all
of human progress.  Just exactly the same cultural absolutism that you
indict the Muslim "extremists" for.

You don't need "enlightenment values" -- a damn far cry from actual
enlightenment, whatever that might be -- if you already have social
harmony.   And if you already have social harmony, you sure as hell
don't want anything to do with the ridiculous warmongering
exceptionalism of Western democracy: a comprehensive fraud -- a feeble
circus, a tribal popularity contest, flawed to the point of
unworkability, and in it's current incarnation, a wholly owned
subsidiary of "Oligarchs 'R' Us".

>> Religious groups, let us not forget, also do charity work, feeding
>> and clothing the poor.
>
>
> No. They only feed their poor. Not all poor.
> They use their charity to buy the poor and keep them dependent to them.
> They use money to buy conversion to Islam (conversion to other religion is
> punished by death). No money for kafir.
>
>
>> In the case of the Taliban, they also brought
>> law to the lawless.
>
>
> They brought tyranny to the lawless.

Sorry, Mirco, but that's Western Kool-aid talking.  They brought
stability.  Only when the West wanted to demonize them, was there
"austerity" rebranded as tyranny.  By that standard, Bush/Cheney was a
tyranny, too.

> Moving from a tyranny to another is no improvement.

Kool-aid aside, the Afghans didn't think so.  (I've interviewed just
as many Afghans as you have.)

>
> In the case of Talibans they were financed by an external power (aka
> Pakistan, the Land of the Pure (the Pure are the Muslims, the others are
> impure).

And that's bad because...?  Pakistan lives in the neighborhood and --
surprise! surprise! -- has interests there, so they supported the
dominant group -- Pashtuns -- in order have influence that served
Pakistani interests.  What interests does the US/West have there?

>> This is also going on in other parts of the
>> Middle East; why do you think Hamas is popular in the West Bank, or
>
>
> It is not so popular, now in Gaza.

Puleeeese!  Kool-aid again.  (To whatever extent it might be true, it
would be because the Israelis disapprove, and as we all know, when the
Israelis disapprove, Palestinians die by the hundreds.)


> It happen when they become the government
> and start to force people to obey them.
>
>
>> the Muslim Brotherhood able to win elections in Egypt?
>
>
> For the same reason Hitler was able to win in Germany.
> People fear and run to vote for some savior.

You've lost the argument, Mirco.  You're grasping at straws.  Give it up.

>> If the
>> Israelis hadn't stomped Arafat's much more secular and
>> western-oriented Fatah flat, and the Generals (from Nasser onwards)
>> hadn't stifled democratic opposition, the reactionary extremist
>> movements wouldn't have had room to grow.
>
>

Mirco's comments below, from "Sorry" to "Arabs"  is just mythical
Zionist apologetics.  Sorry, Mirco, I just can't let you get away with
this.

> Sorry, but this is incorrect (an understatement).
> Arafat, as he returned in the West Bank, started to impose his power over
> the locals and to indoctrinated the children about freeing all Palestine,
> "from the River to the Sea". He took the money for himself and his cronies.
> He rejected any and every peace offer from Israel. He never implemented any
> part of the Oslo Agreement.
>
> The Palestinian people never existed before Arafat was throw out of
> Jordanian by King Hussein. It was PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization).
> But the people in Palestine identified themselves as Arabs. Not
> Palestinians. Not even now they really identify themselves as Palestinians.
> They were Jordanians in the West Bank and apolides in Gaza (Egypt never
> dreamed to give them any right when they ruled there).
> Ask Lebanese as much the love Palestinians and if they contemplate to give
> them the right to become citizens of Lebanon (ditto for any other government
> there).
>
> The war of the Arabs against Israel are racially and religiously motivated.
> They can not accept a state and a government not Arab and not Muslim. All
> the other policies are descendant from the religious and racial intolerance
> of Arabs.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Men occasionally stumble over the truth,
 but most pick themselves up and hurry off
 as if nothing had happened."
             Winston Churchill



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