[ExI] IQ and beauty

John Clark johnkclark at gmail.com
Mon Oct 19 22:54:45 UTC 2015

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:53 PM, rex <rex at nosyntax.net> wrote:

​> ​
> But you have yet to provide a single example of selection driving a species
> to extinction. Anything less than that is mere hand-waving -- a popular
> activity in the social "sciences" -- IMO.
>> No, the Irish elk is NOT even a quasi-established example,

​If extinct species are not a example or even a quasi-example then it is
not entirely clear what you do want. Experiments? ​

​> ​
> Obviously, extant species cannot serve as examples of selection
> driving a species to extinction.

​And obviously experiments can not be done on extinct species, so all I
need to do is find a species that is neither extinct nor extant. How hard
can that be?  ​

>>   ​And I would be astounded if the authors of any of those theories were
>>>>>> foolish enough to suggest that the size of the Irish Elk's antlers played
>>>> no part in its extinction, especially when species of elk which have a
>> large body size but much smaller antlers survive to this day.     ​
> ​> ​
> You're apparently easily astounded,

​Maybe so but it's fun to be astonished so tell me about one of those
experts who believe the Irish Elk's antlers played no part in its

> ​> ​
> as it's easy to find examples of sexual
>> selection for characteristics that have no measurable effect on
> reproductive
>> fitness.

​I'd ask for one of those easy examples but I don't even know what you're
talking about. If a ​characteristic is sexually selected then it by
definition has a measurable effect on reproductive fitness, although
not necessarily on individual fitness or species fitness as the Irish Elk

​> ​
> Do you not see the gaping whole in this arm-waving argument? Hint: how much
>> do mature elephant tusks weigh? Why aren't they extinct?

​ ​
true elephant tusks weigh a bit more, about 1.5 times what the Irish Elk
antlers weighed; but a elephant is a MUCH larger animal, a elephant weighs
times what a Irish Elk weighed. And elephant tusks
are shaped like spears and are coated with enamel
, the hardest
​ biological​
​there is
, and so is a excellent weapon. The Irish Elk antlers were shaped like a
open hand and were made of soft weak cartilage and so were a lousy weapon.
Besides defense elephants use there tusks for foraging, digging, stripping
bark off of trees and for moving things out of their way. Elk use their
antlers the same way people once used cars with tail fins, to make
themselves look snappy to the opposite sex.

> >
>> ​>​
>>   ​Can you find one single expert who maintains that gargantuan antlers
>> were
>>>> not a factor in extinction and if they were just a bit larger the Irish
>>>>  Elk would still be with us today? ​
​> ​
Would the existence of such a person sway your belief?

​Maybe. ​
Tell me who this mysterious expert of yours is and why he thinks gargantuan
antlers were
not a factor in extinction and I'll let you know if he's changed my belief.
It's certainly possible.

​ John K Clark​
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