[ExI] re Odyssey, hero

[William Flynn Wallace]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, it has a happy ending, if you like wide scale murder from a thug.
>>
>> Odysseus is a thug:  raider of villages, murderer, raper, thief.
>>
>> This is a hero?
>>
>
> By whose moral standards? I think that of that time, he was likely viewed
> as a hero -- a very different kind of hero too since he used his wits
> rather than brute force -- to succeed. And the happy ending is he gets
> back, despite a god being against him and all the trials, manages to save
> his wife and house.
>
> Note, too, that this seems an extra-esthetics question: what's heroic or
> moral is not determined by art but something removed from it. Of course,
> someone like Ayn Rand might argue that the two are closely tied together.
> She believed art is supposed to project the moral ideal. You might look at
> her esthetics, since some of what she says seems to go along with your
> tastes.
>
> And is a hero -- in the sense of some titan, moral or otherwise --
> necessary to have a happy ending? If the protagonists win in the end and
> she or he is not too bad and the endeavor is not too repugnant to your
> moral sensibilities -- in other words, it's not about a a sociopath wanting
> to burn puppies alive getting his happy ending because he thwarts animals
> lovers to live his dream -- then isn't that a happy ending? You know, like
> in a rom-com?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
​ One should not apply current morality to what is going on the Illiad or
Odyssey. (Anders)

Come on, Anders, 'should not'?  I don't like 'should'.  It restricts me
unnecessarily.  I am supposed to apply other peoples' standards, not my
own? O killed all of this household staff, did he not?  This is happy?

> ​OK, happy if you are a thug without a conscience.  Surely you can agree
> that he is that by our standards.  Was Torquemada a great Christian by the
> standards of the day?
>

​Heroes can have tragic endings.  Jesus for one.  I am sure a Christian
would argue that it was the fulfillment of a prophecy and was wonderful,
but to me it's tragic.​


​By the way, Ilium and Olympos, by Dan Simmons​

​, follow the Trojan war, sort of, and are fine fantasy/scifi.

bill w​

> ​
>
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