[ExI] Circumcision

Tue Jun 14 00:45:39 UTC 2016

> I found this whole notion so very
> annoying and made my position clear: babies do suffer while the
circumcision
> is being performed and it damn well does count.  spike

Now what is a psychologist to make of this?  Some of the psychoanalytic
persuasion might make a case that an incident of this kind could change the
adult personality in a significant way, particularly since it is of a
sexual nature.  No one can supply any data of any kind  that would prove or
disprove this notion.  Thus one can argue either side of it and not meet a
persuasive counterargument.

I can imagine that the vast majority of circumcisions are done because of
tradition in the family, or tradition in a group, such as the Jews.  I
suspect that few decisions to do it are motivated by health reasons, but
that reason may be increasing.

I was a very independent and willful child and teen.  My parents did not
punish me much at all.  I could take a position that they did not do what
they should have done and my personality suffered for it.  Thus I could
resent the upbringing that I had.  I could harp on it all my life and blame
them for my failures.

Unlike circumcision, my upbringing could not be reversed.  If this scenario
obtained I might be a neurotic or a drug addict or alcoholic, always
getting treatment but never getting well.

The Eagles had a song:  Get Over It, which was a satire on all the troubles
country songs harped on.  This is one of my theme songs.  What good does it
do to berate parents, who are long dead in my case, for the way they raised
me?  It just produces stress and the thousands of unfortunate things it can
cause.  Of what use is outrage?

My person opinion is that the physician is correct:  the baby will not form
any long term memories of pain and trauma occurring in early infancy, and
thus no psychological damage will ensue, unless he becomes resentful of
what was  done to him.  As you know, when dealing with a minor, all that is
needed is implied consent, which is provided by the parents' requesting the
procedure.

No one's childhood is perfect.  No one's parents always did the right
things, and sometimes they didn't even know what the right thing was, and
so tradition held.

Now I do think that pertinent studies should be done, though I very much
doubt if anything definitive will come of it.  Even if something does and
it's negative, I suspect that tradition will overwhelm it.  Many traumas
happen in infancy and childhood and I think it's impossible to point at one
of them and say that it is a cause of some adult characteristic.

The trauma itself is not important in any case.  It is the person's
recovery from it that matters.  In a very real sense, having an easy life
does not prepare one for the capricious indignities and vicissitudes that
make up a normal life.  Learning to cope with frustration is essential.  If
a child has no frustration we must provide him with some!

Nothing above is intended to make light of anyone's concern.

bill w

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 2:02 PM,   "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> > . . .
>
> That will mean text deleted, can't use the word I used to.
>
> > At the end of it all, I am the dad, and I pulled rank.
>
> I was not informed that it was going to be done till after it
> happened.  Probably would not have made any difference, but at least
> the father would have known in advance that it would damage if not end
> our business relation.
>
> > . . .
>
> >  Given that opportunity to choose and
> > given a break from social pressures, my guess is the circumcision rate
> would
> > go from half to half a percent.
>
> I think the same.  The question is how to do it.  I could still use
> advice on how to do meaningful research on the question.  There are
> plenty of men around both ways.  How can we generate valid survey
> information on how they feel about what was done or not done to them
> that might influence parents?  Does it change with age?  I didn't
> start to have really annoying problems until I was over 60.
>
> > This brings up an interesting related question about the nature of
> > suffering.  An argument was presented to me (by a doctor who was
> > respectfully neutral (so he was not advocating for the argument, only
> > introducing me to it (and I do commend the Stanford medical staff
> involved
> > (all of whom were perfectly and admirably neutral always)))) that babies
> > suffer at the time but don't remember it since the neuronal pathways are
> > being formed and reformed.  The notion is that the suffering at the time
> > doesn't count if you don't remember it.
>
> This was part of the justification for the very light sentence handed
> out in a rape on a woman passed out behind a dumpster at Stanford.
> Huge flapping in the news over it, they may recall the judge.
>
> > I found this whole notion so very
> > annoying and made my position clear: babies do suffer while the
> circumcision
> > is being performed and it damn well does count.
> >
> spike, the question is what can be done?
>
> It's a depressing read, but
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer#Legacy
>
> "Only a few years after David Reimer's birth, Canada began taking a
> stance against infant circumcision, and it is now uncommon there.[13]
>
> I highly appreciate the other responses, particularly Anders.  Will
> read and use the references.
>
> It's been more than a week and I am still so upset about this that I
> am find it hard to keep track of time and get things done.  I have a
> talk at a conference this week on power satellites that I can't
> cancel.
>
> That part is a defect in my personality.  Excessive empathy makes it
> painful for me to watch most movies.
>
> Keith
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