[ExI] evolution

[Henry Rivera]

Bill,
I can't tell how strict you are being here, so this may just be a matter of you having a very high standard of what constitutes tool use/creating tools/learning to use tools, but there are plenty of scholarly articles, web pages indexed by google, and videos demonstrating various degrees of tool use by non-human animals. Just search for "ethology tool use" to see what I mean. Or "birds using tools" on YouTube. Some of these are quite impressive IMHO. 
-Henry 

> On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> spike wrote    we may find that most beasts use tools in some way, and
> many of them make tools.
> 
> ​There is a problem here with interpretation.  If a person, aka human, used a tool, he must have learned it somehow, watching, experimenting - aka learning either from others or just from messing around.  I think that anyone who has worked on cars has invented a tool, perhaps using two different tools to do a job.
> 
> The examples you gave of tool use were all instincts - aka not learned.  The thing about people is their adaptability.  We can create tools or use tools for something other than their intended purpose.  Animals - aka other animals - tend to do the same thing over and over, and the behavior does not vary much at all from one individual to another.
> 
> For you to show that animals do use tools in much the same way we do, you'll have to show changes in their instinctive behaviors and I don't think you can do that.  A spider won't build a different web if the one she has stays empty.  And the tool use will have to be relatively unique - unlike other individuals of that species.
> 
> So show me learning to use tools and I'll be happy with that.
> 
> bill w
> 
> ​
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 4:43 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
>> Of MB
>> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 1:19 PM
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] evolution
>> 
>> 
>> > That would be cool to see.  Had I known that, I would have looked
>> > around for a sandy area and arranged for a small arthropod to pass by.
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> Oh spike, where did you grow up????  That's similar to
>> what doodlebugs do, only thay make a pit-trap for the ant
>> to fall into, then they catch them.  Surely you recall
>> that from your childhood?
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> MB
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Of course!  We called them ant lions, but since you mention that particular
>> beast, I have an a fun story from the 1960s.  You recall elementary school
>> back in the day perhaps if you are old enough: if the teacher was feeling
>> lazy she (they were all she back then) would put on a film in the old time
>> projector and kick back for half an hour.
>> 
>> You might recall plenty of those science films were full of baloney.  For
>> instance, the one that comes to mind is an anthropology film which claimed
>> the thing that sets humans apart from all other species was his ability to
>> make tools.  They mentioned the notion was challenged by the observation of
>> chimps stripping a twig to make a termite-extraction tool.  Afterwards in
>> the discussion, I questioned that too.  Plenty of beasts make tools.  We
>> could witness one creating a tool and using it right outside the door
>> without having to go on a field trip.
>> 
>> My open-minded teacher indulged me and allowed the class to witness, as I
>> stepped out, dug an ant lion out of the ground, poured the sand away to
>> isolate the ant lion, placed him on the sand.  We watched him flick sand to
>> create an inverted cone ant trap.  There ya go: beast making a tool.  Then I
>> took an ant, put her in the trap, ant lion flipped the sand, grabbed the
>> ant: beast using a tool.
>> 
>> My teacher didn't even attempt to claim that act didn't count as tool
>> making.  The discussion evolved into birds gathering twigs to make a nest.
>> A home is a tool.  A spider's web is a tool.  The beaver makes a dam which
>> is a tool for backing up water, providing a barrier to trap fish.  The orcas
>> work together to create a bubble curtain to herd schools of fish.  Orcas are
>> in a whole nuther category: those guys work together to do all kindsa cool
>> stuff.
>> 
>> Whoever made that film displayed a remarkable lack of imagination.  If you
>> look closely enough, we may find that most beasts use tools in some way, and
>> many of them make tools.
>> 
>> spike
>> 
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