[ExI] Single Payer Healthcare

Dan TheBookMan danust2012 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 31 20:40:25 UTC 2017

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 5:58 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017  Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>wrote:
>> ​The USA has gone backward. In 1960
> ​> ​Note the changes in medical legislation from 01956 onward. Would you say that has nothing to do with this?

​> Obviously not, if I thought otherwise I would not have mentioned
> it as this thread is about medical legislation. ​

Then what effect do you believe those changes had? Did they make things better or worse overall? Did they causes healthcare prices to rise or fall overall? (I realize the case is more complicated, hence my use of "overall.")

> ​> ​Do you want to do data analysis or just do pretend science by factoid?

​> Factoid?? We're talking about the results of a experiment that lasted
> decades involved about a billion people and cost trillions of dollars,
> and the results are clear as a bell; like it or not single payer
> countries get more bang for their buck, they live longer and spend
> less, a lot less. As a libertarian I wish the facts could have produced
> a different conclusion but reality doesn't give a damn what I prefer.

Whoa! The strict libertarian position is to allow voluntary interaction to be the rule in healthcare. The US during the 20th century, especially after the FDA act and with the spread of occupational licensing and other regulations, did not even approximate the libertarian position. So, you're comparing two (or more) different systems of government intervention in healthcare.

>> In this case, you'd have to make sure you're comparing like to like.

​> Of those 30 countries you can't ​find one that is anything like
> the USA? Are Canadians a different species?  

They had different starting positions. Now, I'm not arguing here for what the conclusions are. Recall my initial post on this thread. I asked questions about the data and conclusions that were not biased against them. You might be right about single payer being better here, but without answering my questions there's a chance -- and not a small one in my mind -- that you're comparing unlike to unlike.

[snip of smoking example and your response]

>>> ​Be honest Dan, if the 30 single payer countries I mentioned
>>> spent twice as much on healthcare as the USA and yet their
>>> citizens had shorted lives than the USA would you be
>>> complaining about​  sampling errors​ and​​ ​experimental​​ bias?
>>> We both know you wouldn't. ​>>

> ​> ​To be honest, John, it's not entirely honest on your part to
>> avoid my questions based on how you feel I might have answered
>> were the data different.​​ In a word, you're sidestepping...
>> inconvenient questions.

> ​I don't know which question of yours I've sidestepped,

Well, I've only posted them twice on March 28, so here goes for a third time (rewording them slightly in hopes this helps you to answer them):

1. What are the historical rates of life expectancy for all nations?

2. Are there any nations with single payer systems that have shorter than the US life expectancy?

I don't know the answers to these. If you do, then this might help you case or harm, depending on what the answers are.

> but I ​know of a question of mine ​that ​you have​ sidestepped​:  if
> the 30 single payer countries I mentioned spent twice as much
> on healthcare as the USA and yet their citizens had​ shorter​
> lives than the USA would you be complaining about​ sampling
> errors​ and​ experimental​ bias?​

No, I didn't sidestep your question. I asked my questions specifically to test your question.

Let's say I were as biased as you. Unthinkable, I know, but bear with me.;) Then it would be still be the correct thing to ask these questions about the data and not merely accept a single piece of data as the decisive element in our policy choices. This would even be the case if somehow we found out single payer systems, from one data table, were worse. Yeah, sure, those who detest single payer systems might cling to such data, but then folks like you -- imagining you your bias -- would have to ask those questions. 


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