[ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy

John Clark johnkclark at gmail.com
Wed Nov 29 16:35:18 UTC 2017


Hi Max

Thanks for taking my
​concerns​
 seriously, I'm glad to see you think they may not be entirely without
merit. You mentioned fracturing but I'm not very worried about that because
I think a good computer could figure out what parts should go where
​.​
I'm much more worried about turbulence, that is
​parts​
 mixing in a nonlinear way, because then even a nano-computer may not be
able to put Humpty Dumpty
​ back together again, or even figure out what his brain looked like before
all the damage.

If ALCOR's ​preservation methods improves enough that a person, or even a
mouse, can be brought back to full viability from liquid nitrogen
temperatures without Drexler's Nanotechnology then I'll forget all about
ASC; I don't think that's going to happen but I'd love to be proven wrong.
In the meantime I think the focus should be on preserving the most
information we can with as little distortion as possible.

 John K Clark
=================



On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> No need to apologize for being a pain in the ass. These are important
> questions.
>
> I'm not sure I have the time nor deep knowledge to answer all your points
> adequately but will try to do so soon and have forwarded your thoughts to
> others with more in-depth knowledge. For now, just a couple of quick
> responses.
>
> Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
>> temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
>> scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed.
>
>
> 1. Some very smart and well-informed people in the field would not agree
> with this statement -- at least in cases where fracturing can be
> eliminated.
>
> 2. Alcor has no in-principle objection to offering ASC. ASC still requires
> the full capabilities of standby, stabilization, and transport (a major
> part of the total cost) and Alcor already has that figured out. There is
> nothing in Alcor's model that biases us against ASC. I believe the main
> issue is that ASC introduces a further (and major) level of difficulty in
> reversibility. Our goal at Alcor is to minimize reliance on projected
> breakthroughs in future technology. On a related matter, it's clear to me
> that there is a major divide here between those who find it essential to be
> revived in their biological bodies and those who believe they will survive
> just as well in software emulations. I'm in the latter camp but, in my
> position, must take fully into account a great many people in the first
> camp.
>
> Best,
>
> --Max
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:51 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>>
>> ​Hi Max
>>
>> Sorry for being a pain, you don't have a easy job and you know one hell
>> of a lot more about Cryonics than I do but some things don't add up, or at
>> least I can't get them to.
>>  I just wish somebody could explain to me exactly what the downside of
>> ASC is because the philosophical objections given by Erler in the current
>> issue of Cryonics strikes me as being utterly ridiculous   ​
>>
>>
>> ​> ​
>>> The fact that ASC allows you to show clearly ultrastructural
>>> preservation better doesn't mean that ASC is doing a better job at
>>> ultrastructure preservation.
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't?  At the very least it clearly shows that its easier to obtain
>> the ultrastructural information with a ASC sample than a ALCOR sample.
>>
>> ​> ​
>>> Current research is working on reducing or eliminating dehydration so
>>> that we can provide equally clear evidence of excellent preservation with
>>> the existing process.
>>>
>>
>> ​Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that the very fact that
>> dehydration distorts things so much you can't take clear pictures of
>> ultra-structure with a electron microscope but you can with the ASC method
>> means ASC is doing a better job at preserving information with less
>> distortion.
>>
>> See:
>>> Chemical Brain Preservation and Human Suspended Animation
>>>
>>> http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/chemopreservation2.html
>>>
>>
>> ​From that webpage:​
>>
>>
>>
>>> ​ "​
>>> restoring function after reversal of our procedures is the most credible
>>> test of the efficacy of our procedures
>>> ​"​
>>>
>>
>> Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
>> temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
>> scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed. In the meantime we're just
>> going to have to use some other criteria for judging which does a better
>> job, and right now I can't think of a better one than good electron
>> microscope pictures.
>>
>> ​ "​
>>> We are reluctant to settle for preservation of ultrastructure alone
>>> because this goal can always trigger objections that we are failing to
>>> preserve crucial identity-encoding parts of the brain
>>> ​"​
>>> .
>>
>>
>> ​It's always possible that one method preserves some vital quality that
>> we can't yet see better than the other, but there is nothing we can do
>> about that because we can't see it, the best we can do right now is pick
>> the technology that best preserves the qualities we can see, and that would
>> be ASC   ​
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ​"​
>>> we want to minimize the time the patient has to be retained in low
>>> temperature care.
>>> ​"​
>>>
>>
>> I want that too, but even assuming both methods preserve enough
>> information to bring the person back I can see no reason why a ALCOR
>> preserved patient would come back one hour before a patient preserved with
>> the ASC method.  ​
>>
>>
>>> ​​>
>>> At Alcor we believe that a credible cryonics organization should aim for
>>> perfecting human suspended animation.
>>
>>
>> ​The day
>> human suspended animation
>> ​ is perfected will be the same day nobody ever needs to go into
>> suspended animation again. If the technology is good enough to bring a
>> vitrified brain cooled to liquid nitrogen temperatures back to full
>> function and health then killing cancer cells or fixing a bad heart would
>> be child's play.
>>
>> Preserving enough undistributed information to bring a person back is
>> hard, but using that information to actually do it is far far harder; ALCOR
>> is a small organization and can't do all the heavy lifting by itself, if
>> the information is preserved sooner or later Nanotechnology will be
>> developed that can do something with it. I think right now ALCOR should
>> concentrate on making sure future technology has something to work with.
>>
>> ​"​
>>> Making slices out of a whole vitrified brain while vitrified is a tough
>>> problem. It is easier to make thin slices out of a whole brain that’s been
>>> turned into solid plastic because the resin used is designed for being cut
>>> into thin slices for microscopy. So plastination has a natural advantage in
>>> this
>>
>>
>>>> That may have been a valid point 5 years ago when
>> ​those words were​
>>  written, but the ASC brain has been warmed up and is no longer
>> vitrified, and it shows better ultra-structure than the ALCOR preserved
>> brain after it has been warmed up and is no longer vitrified.
>>
>> ​"​
>>> After initial stabilization with aldehyde fixatives, a chemopreservation
>>> patient would have to be transported to a dedicated facility for treatment
>>> with even more toxic chemicals such as osmium tetroxide and plastic resin
>>> monomers. Osmium tetroxide is a volatile and extremely powerful oxidizer
>>> ​"​
>>>
>>
>> Osmium tetroxide
>> ​just used for staining to get good pictures from a electron microscope​,
>> it wouldn't be used if you were trying to preserve a life and not do
>> research.
>>
>> ​" ​
>>> In the case of chemopreservation, the absence of low temperatures could
>>> permit ongoing degradation of poorly fixed and embedded tissue
>>> ​" ​
>>> .
>>
>>
>> ​No longer relevant, ​both ASC and ALCOR would store brains at the same
>> low  temperature.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> ​> ​
>>> Being able to chemically preserve brain slices is not comparable to
>>> preserving entire human brains.
>>>
>>
>>  ​No longer relevant
>> ​, ASC has preserved an entire pig brain.
>>
>> The reason I'm making a​ big deal out of all this is... well... because
>> its a matter of life and death.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
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