[ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 188, Issue 21

Thu May 30 19:55:07 UTC 2019

 Hello, I dont think I've been on the extropian mailinglist since 2000. I go back into the archives and I'm startled to see a highschool version of me predicting things that have now occurred. I was quite amused to see I actually built some of the things I speculated about regarding virtual reality and augmented reality. Anyone else out there still from back in the day or has everyone moved on?
    On Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 11:28:06 PM EST, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org <extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org> wrote:  

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: snakes in the toilet (spike at rainier66.com)
  2. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (Dave Sill)
  3. Re: Enlightenment at Last, was "are we publishing?" (John Clark)
  4. progress toward proof of riemann hypothesis claimed
      (spike at rainier66.com)
  5. Re: snakes in the toilet (William Flynn Wallace)
  6. more liu (William Flynn Wallace)
  7. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (spike at rainier66.com)
  8. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (William Flynn Wallace)
  9. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (Dan TheBookMan)
  10. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (spike at rainier66.com)

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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 10:11:54 -0700
From: <spike at rainier66.com>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] snakes in the toilet
Message-ID: <004801d51641$9d980a50$d8c81ef0$@rainier66.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:33 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: snakes in the toilet

Sheesh check this:

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs
-snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html

.

>.We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed
thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet. etc.  spike

Hey wait I have a better idea.  We might be able to come up with a kind of
device which wouldn't require removal of the toilet to install it.  A rubber
ring would compress enough to go in thru the top, have it on a kind of
flexible wand, down it goes, done.

Wait, even better: a kind of motion detector which would trigger when the
snake diode closed or even if it sensed some goddam thing down there was
trying to sneak past it, coming up for dinner.  It could signal a very loud
warning kinda like those cockpit ground sensor things that go PULL UP WHOOP
WHOOP PULL UP and hey, we could just use that as the warning sound.

We could come up with a cutesy name for it such as GYAOTT, and you don't
even need to offer that it is the acronym for get your ass off that toilet.

The proles would figure it out, and it would become an international word,
since plenty of places in the world have a bigger problem with snakes in the
toilet that we do.

Then there is the after-market.  We could sell a device which would set off
the GYAOTT by remote control.  House guest brother-in-law staying too long,
get him a little stoned, middle of the night, detector indicates he just sat
down, you hit a switch, PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP etc, oh that would be such fun,
a kick in the ass, we will make a buttload on the secondary market alone.

spike 

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:12:20 -0400
From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
To: Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com>
Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing?
Message-ID:
    <CAM5aL2dxykzjSjNazcs89wYu3_hkDPjGUDZWru+EVo_2t-1qfw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:17 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> Dave, if it is physically possible to enable (by any means, technological,
> bribery or religion-based miracle) privilege elevation, and do so without
> detection, then that server was set up incorrectly.
>

It would be nice if reality was that black and white and perfect security
was achievable and usable, but that's not the case. There are a wide range
of hardware, firmware, and software bugs that can be exploited to elevate
privileges. Even if a sysadmin knew of all of them that were known, that
doesn't mean that there are fixes available for them, and, more
importantly, there are still going to be exploitable bugs that aren't
known: they call them zero-day vulnerabilities.

> It is analogous to a bank vault left hanging open and all the employees
> going out to lunch simultaneously.  If someone wanders in off the street,
> sees, hauls away a coupla sacks of money undetected, that is considered an
> inside job.
>

No, it's more like a skilled bank robber is able pick the bank's door lock
and use a weakness in the vault lock to unlock it.

OK then.  Bank people and licensed SysAdmins are trained how to not let
> that happen.
>

Sysadmins aren't licensed. I've been one for the US Navy and Dept. of
Energy for 30+ years. For the most part, sysadmins aren't even trained. My
BS in Computer Science included 0 hours of system administration and 0
hours of computer security. There are lots of certifications these days,
but employers, including mine, are slow to require them or pay for
employees to attain them.

  If somehow someone does elevate privilege and start downloading stuff
> somehow, the SysAdmin would at least know something is going wrong.  If she
> doesn?t know and the bad guy does get away with the data undetected, that
> is an inside job, and she (the SysAdmin) is in trouble deep.
>

Nope. I know such things *shouldn't* happen, but they do. Often sysadmins
aren't able to do things they want to do, security wise, that their bosses
won't permit or fund.

I am not a SysAdmin, and my limited experience in that area is nearly 40
> years old (DEC 11-750 mainframe) but even way back then, we knew about data
> theft and we knew what precautions were in place to prevent it.
>

IT is *vastly* more complicated than it was 40 years ago. For example, if
you've got an Intel processor, you're probably vulnerable to a series of
bugs that can't be fixed by software or reconfiguration (Spectre/Meltdown
and other branch prediction bugs).

For starters, you would set up with a low-speed data line.  So even if you
> did have a crooked insider attempts to steal data, they wouldn?t get much
> and she would find out forthwith.
>

Until the first user complains that upload/downloads are taking too long,
and if they've got gigabit n/w to their house, how come the servers are
limited to KB/s?

I'm not saying that in this particular case there's nothing the sysadmin
could have done to prevent the breach. I'm saying we don't know how
responsible he is for the system's exploitability,

-Dave
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:20:59 -0400
From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Enlightenment at Last, was "are we publishing?"
Message-ID:
    <CAJPayv1H2wzfMSh73UNwUZvEY=XrUo4uhXzhsEfPjzewgoAdPQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 4:25 PM Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

*> I'm somewhat puzzled as to what it is about our president that's caused
> you to go all loopy loopy. *
>

There are 2 things about Trump that make me go all loopy loopy.
#1)Trump strongly disagrees with Richard Feynman's statement

"*reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be
fooled*"

Trump thinks that if he wants something to be true hard enough then it is.
Trump wants his inaugural crowd to be the largest ever so it was. Trump
wants vaccinations to cause autism so it does. Trump wants the climate not
to be changing so it isn't. Trump wants Iran to violate its nuclear treaty
so it has. Trump wants North Korean leader Kim Jong-un to be a existential
threat to the USA so he is. Trump changes his mind and in his own words
"fell in love" with Kim Jong-un so now he's of no threat to anyone.

#2) Trump lies.

All politicians lie from time to time but the machine gun rate the lies
come out of Trump's pie hole in a typical speech is something new.  And
what really makes me mad is he doesn't even think we're worth the time to dream
up a good lie, his lies are transparent and ridiculous and beloved by his
fellow fascists at his Nuremberg style rallies. On April 27 2019 Trump
passed a milestone, on that day he told his 10,000'th lie since becoming
president.

Fact-checking Trump
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/with-trump-on-pace-for-22500-lies-before-election-day-fact-checking-isnt-enough/2019/04/30/f54bb35e-6b6a-11e9-8f44-e8d8bb1df986_story.html?utm_term=.1c2ea954910a>

And far from slowing down the rate is accelerating, during the last seven
months he has told on average 23 lies a day, that works out to one publicly
utter lie every 42 waking minutes. John Lester is a professional bookmaker
at  BookMaker.eu and he set odds that Trump will tell at least 22,500 lies
by election day 2020.  By the way Lester got into trouble recently by
underestimating the number of lies Trump would tell in a recent 8 minute
speech. Lester set the odds at  -145 for more than 3.5 lies and +115 for
less than 3.5 lies. For example if you bet $145  that Trump would lie at
least four times you would win $100. But if turned out Trump told 6 lies
(one lie every 80 seconds) and BookMaker.eu lost $270,000 as a result.

Gamblers Made $270,000 Betting That Trump Would Lie A LOT
<https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ev3eq7/people-bet-on-how-much-trump-would-lie-address-make-270000-vgtrn>

> *Lately there's been a bit of hysteria over the possibility -- a low
> probability in my view -- that notwithstanding the 22nd amendment, the
> Trumpinator might want to stick around as the White House resident after
> January 2025. *
>

Forget January 2025 and think about January 2021.  Even if Trump loses in a
landslide in the 2020 election I would say there is a 40% chance he will
say the election was fake and try to stay in office long after January 2021
and claim he will reschedule a new election at some vague unspecified
future date. And if there is a inverse of the 2016 situation and Trump wins
the popular vote but loses in the Electoral College I think it's virtually
certain he will need to be dragged out of the Oval Office by armed guards.
I don't know if his attempt to become dictator will be successful but even
if he fails it will be ugly, such a power grab will lead to blood literally
flowing in the streets.

*> First, let me say I don't really personally see how that would be a
> problem. Many people consider Franklin Roosevelt to have been a great
> president, so I don't really understand why, except  perhaps out of
> political jealousy, one would want to prematurely terminate a good thing.
> But that's just me.  *
>

I'm curious, 52% of Republicans say they would be OK with it if Trump
canceled the 2020 election, do you agree with 52% of Republicans?

> * > About eight or so years ago you fiercely declared the impossibility of
> free will. *
>

I don't think I ever said Free Will is impossible, I said free will is an
idea so bad it's not even wrong. A Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible
but a Klogknee Machine is not impossible, a Klogknee Machine is gibberish
and so is Free Will. Gibberish is neither true nor false, it's just
gibberish.

 > *every spiritual being instinctively recognizes that life itself,
> subjective experience itself, clearly, self-evidently, proves the existence
> of free will.*
>

I don't agree with that and I don't disagree with it either, I don't know
what the hell it means.

> > *The universe has features that transcend mere logic,*
>

That must be why you're a Trump fan, I'd be one too but I sorta like logic.

 John K Clark
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 11:43:23 -0700
From: <spike at rainier66.com>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] progress toward proof of riemann hypothesis claimed
Message-ID: <009401d5164e$65b97210$312c5630$@rainier66.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

My inbox has been buzzing about this for the last several days:

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/05/20/1902572116

Tragic that I know so little about the Riemann zeta function.  It is wicked
cool, and if his hypothesis is not true, mathematics is screwed profoundly.
It is a profound tragedy that in this critical moment, what little remaining
brain power I have is distracted by schemes to play gags on my
brother-in-law by rigging a GYAOTT snake detector on the guest-room toilet
(oh dear, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.)

Have we any Riemann gurus among us who wish to comment?  (On the hypothesis
I mean, not the GYAOTT.)

spike

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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:30:39 -0500
From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] snakes in the toilet
Message-ID:
    <CAO+xQEa+CqTnhdpGTOGhxx4gaBREm9jSwaBFLi1i9LtG07=KsQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Or - a remote-controlled bidet.  When to trigger it may be a problem
without remote cameras or the sensor you mentioned.  So, in other words, we
need some things beyond the law to make this really effective for an
audience.  Hearing shrieks is not enough.  We want pictures.  Oh well.
bill w

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:14 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:33 AM
> *To:* 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* snakes in the toilet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sheesh check this:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs-snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html
>
>
>
> ?
>
> >?We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed
> thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet? etc.  spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey wait I have a better idea.  We might be able to come up with a kind of
> device which wouldn?t require removal of the toilet to install it.  A
> rubber ring would compress enough to go in thru the top, have it on a kind
> of flexible wand, down it goes, done.
>
>
>
> Wait, even better: a kind of motion detector which would trigger when the
> snake diode closed or even if it sensed some goddam thing down there was
> trying to sneak past it, coming up for dinner.  It could signal a very loud
> warning kinda like those cockpit ground sensor things that go PULL UP WHOOP
> WHOOP PULL UP and hey, we could just use that as the warning sound.
>
>
>
> We could come up with a cutesy name for it such as GYAOTT, and you don?t
> even need to offer that it is the acronym for get your ass off that
> toilet.
>
>
>
> The proles would figure it out, and it would become an international word,
> since plenty of places in the world have a bigger problem with snakes in
> the toilet that we do.
>
>
>
> Then there is the after-market.  We could sell a device which would set
> off the GYAOTT by remote control.  House guest brother-in-law staying too
> long, get him a little stoned, middle of the night, detector indicates he
> just sat down, you hit a switch, PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP etc, oh that would be
> such fun, a kick in the ass, we will make a buttload on the secondary
> market alone.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:44:07 -0500
From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] more liu
Message-ID:
    <CAO+xQEaiqi=OjvGkjwhffxzVhMkCC_cubdBDDh0n+SCiYZVEiA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Book of short stories by Cixin Liu:

The Wandering Earth (not just earth-shaking, but Earth moving)

bill w
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:48:46 -0700
From: <spike at rainier66.com>
To: "'Dave Sill'" <sparge at gmail.com>
Cc: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing?
Message-ID: <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Greetings fellow journalists,

It?s weird on multiple levels.  I am watching the simmering debate on Julian Assange.  In the USA, we tend to extend US Constitutional rights to foreign nationals in many cases, so they don?t really quite know what to do with that whole freedom of the press/speech business.  I see some arguing that Assange is not a real journalist, so freedom of the press doesn?t apply to him.  But I see nothing in that first amendment that says anything about journalists.  That word isn?t even there.  

So I look around for a definition of the term journalist, and if there is some kind of professional license or something (there isn?t.)  But I see posters here and there say things about ?recognized journalist? so, well OK then.  Can we all recognize each other as journalists?  Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?  Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights?  

spike

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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 19:42:17 -0500
From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing?
Message-ID:
    <CAO+xQEam7A6tb4BzZLgcG03tChVa0aSwcCRNuewv-VynKAnPcw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?  Then if so, are we extended
all US first amendment rights?

spike

Yeah. Just what is the 'press'?  No license.  No degree necessary.  No
sense necessary.

And maybe someone can explain what rights are in the press part of the
second amendment that aren't covered in the first?  When the Bill of Rights
was written, probably they did not think of writing as speech, but if
burning flags is speech, then written material should be too.  Gang?

bill w

bill w

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:51 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> Greetings fellow journalists,
>
>
>
> It?s weird on multiple levels.  I am watching the simmering debate on
> Julian Assange.  In the USA, we tend to extend US Constitutional rights to
> foreign nationals in many cases, so they don?t really quite know what to do
> with that whole freedom of the press/speech business.  I see some arguing
> that Assange is not a real journalist, so freedom of the press doesn?t
> apply to him.  But I see nothing in that first amendment that says anything
> about journalists.  That word isn?t even there.
>
>
>
> So I look around for a definition of the term journalist, and if there is
> some kind of professional license or something (there isn?t.)  But I see
> posters here and there say things about ?recognized journalist? so, well OK
> then.  Can we all recognize each other as journalists?  Can this forum
> become a journalists? hangout?  Then if so, are we extended all US first
> amendment rights?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 18:11:20 -0700
From: Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing?
Message-ID: <3AC3489A-11C5-4F59-8325-775017A3C216 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On May 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>  Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?  Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? 
> 
>  
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Just what is the 'press'?  No license.  No degree necessary.  No sense necessary.  
> 
> 
> 
> And maybe someone can explain what rights are in the press part of the second amendment that aren't covered in the first?  When the Bill of Rights was written, probably they did not think of writing as speech, but if burning flags is speech, then written material should be too.  Gang?
> 
> 
> 
> bill w
> 

Look at the text of the First Amendment.... It already covers both freedom of speech and of the press. Also, don?t you think they had both publications ? books, newspapers, pamphlets, handbills, etc. ? and public oratory back then? It?s not like the Amendment was written in a society where only a tiny number of professionals wrote and read and never ever spoke to each other.

Of course, the interpretation of the text is a different matter, though most arguments limiting free expression have been more about either social mores (obscenity restrictions) or national security than about what the nature of expression is as such. (The idiotic ?crying fire in a theater? argument is a bit different, though it was used to cover national security: to limit antiwar protest when the US entered WW1 and not to protect theatergoers. Notably, theaters (and fires in them) weren?t a Twentieth Century innovation.) Or at least that?s my belief.    

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 21:14:08 -0700
From: <spike at rainier66.com>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: <spike at rainier66.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing?
Message-ID: <005001d5169e$20ebdd30$62c39790$@rainier66.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing?

On May 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> > wrote:

>>> ?Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?  Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights?

spike

>>?Yeah. Just what is the 'press'?  No license.  No degree necessary.  No sense necessary?

bill w

>?Look at the text of the First Amendment.... It already covers both freedom of speech and of the press?Regards, Dan

It is too easy to imagine the outcome of this situation:  

OK so we will burn Assange, since he published all that national security stuff and wasn?t really even a journalist.  It really shouldn?t set a precedent.  Publishing national security stuff is bad, and the New York Times, well, OK we will burn them too, but only when they do the political stuff, and perhaps the Washington Post and maybe the LA Times.  Newsweek of course publishes stuff they shouldn?t.  And Time magazine, but they are way past their prime and CNN, MSNBC and a few others hafta be taught a lesson.  Those guys have all published stuff sensitive to national security, claiming to be journalists, but in any case we got that bad old Julian Assange, did we not?  We got him!  And we cleaned up the airwaves and internet while we were at it, cut right on down with that old fake news problem and the national security problem, solved that.

spike

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