[ExI] The Soul (was: Re: No gods, no meaning?)

Sun Apr 26 05:09:37 UTC 2020

Thanks Jason, I look forward to hearing your reactions to my book.

Concerning this whole discussion, which I am following even if I don't
intervene too much: This seems to confirm that words can't bridge this
gap. When this discussion fades out, nobody will have been persuaded
to change their mind. This and other gaps on fundamental issues depend
too much on basic emotional stances that are much deeper than rational
thought.

I don't want to convert others - if their worldview makes them happy,
then I am happy for them. I am tempted to say something when I see
that  others are NOT happy with their worldview, but then I remember
that worldviews are deeper than words.

It seems to me that the only thing we can do is to agree to disagree,
and move on. There are many worthy goals that both believers and
atheists can and should support. For example, making sure that all
children have enough to eat, colonizing space, saving the koalas,
developing futuristic tech... the list is long. Let's work on these
things together.

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 10:54 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Giulio,
>
> Your book sounds fascinating! I just ordered a copy and can't wait to read it.
>
> Best,
>
> Jason
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 3:03 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason is right, scientific theories of the soul are already published
>> and out there. Not by lesser scientists, but by top Nobel-level
>> scientists. I outline some of these theories in my book:
>> https://turingchurch.net/tales-of-the-turing-church-23f4aa4050c6
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:23 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 24/04/2020 23:57, Jason Resch wrote:
>> >> > I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul
>> >>
>> >> Oh, wow!
>> >>
>> >> You realise how revolutionary this is?
>> >>
>> >> Before you write your book, I think you should publish your scientific
>> >> evidence for the existence of a soul.
>> >>
>> >
>> > The evidence and theories are already published and out there. These theories aren't my theories, I only demonstrate what these theories imply for the properties of the soul (consciousness).
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I always thought it was just a fantasy, some non-falsifiable made-up
>> >> idea to make it easier to control people.
>> >
>> >
>> > You're conscious aren't you?
>> >
>> > You probably are thinking "I have a consciousness, but I don't have a soul"
>> >
>> > Consider if my book shows how well-established scientific theories (special relativity, quantum mechanics, the computational theory of mind, mathematical platonism, etc.) -- all standard theories by scientists in those domains--inevitably lead to the conclusion that your consciousness is eternal, uncreated, immortal, can reincarnate, resurrect, and is in a manner one with all other consciousnesses.
>> >
>> > If your consciousness indeed possesses these properties, would it not be more apt to call it a soul?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Be prepared for lots of questions. Personally, I'm interested to know:
>> >>
>> >> What is it, exactly?
>> >
>> >
>> > Consciousness.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Does your soul remember your past?
>> >
>> >
>> > There are situations in which you will find yourself in a position where you have consolidated memories from many experienced lives. For instance, awaking as a Jupiter brain that just spent the last hour living the lives of every being on a particular planet it chose to simulate.
>> >
>> > To put this in a more human-relatable example, do you remember playing as Link from Zelda, and Mario from Super Mario Brothers? Now consider the perspective of a billion year old uploaded being who has lived a million lifetimes in fully immersive VR (and uses memory blockers while in game) and wakes up after dying in the game.
>> >
>> >> How does it relate to the mind and the brain?
>> >
>> >
>> > Consciousness is a result of the computation performed by the brain or any other computational substrate. If you believe in mathematical platonism, some minds can exist as the mathematical equivalent of a Boltzmann brain, i.e. as a Turing machine with unlimited computational resources where that Turing machine exists purely as a mathematical object without a base universe. But those are probably far more rare compared to brains that evolve from simpler systems such as ourselves.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> What is it made of?
>> >
>> >
>> > Patterns of information; computation.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> What is its mass?
>> >
>> >
>> > Information has no mass, however the machinery of one particular instance (incarnation) of a mind can have a mass.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Do dogs have souls? (Socialists, Canadians, hamsters, goldfish, etc...?)
>> >
>> >
>> > As far as we know. Though I don't know if it can ever be proved, the cost of being wrong (wrongly assuming something doesn't have a soul) can be very high. Descartes for example performed vivisections on his own dogs, under the assumption that they has no consciousness and despite their cries were not suffering.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> How does it arise? (can we make one in the laboratory?)
>> >>
>> >
>> > Many computer programs running on our laptops or phones may possess some minimum consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of information. Self-driving cars probably have at least insect-level consciousness.
>> >
>> > I like to say that the "If statement" is the atom of consciousness, since it is the most basic aspect in programming where a system can react differently based on the state of some information. For there to be information, some system or processed must be informed, which means that system or process has to enter a different state based on that information.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> and, of course, what is your proof that it exists?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Roughly it comes down to these two things:
>> > 1. The fact that you know you are conscious (consciousness exists) + 2. The rational conclusions that can be drawn from assuming our best scientific theories are true, which imply all the aforementioned properties of consciousness.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure there will be many more questions, if you can demonstrate that
>> >> you're actually on to something.
>> >
>> >
>> > Let me know if you have any others.
>> >
>> > Jason
>> > _______________________________________________
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>>
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