[ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found

Fri Feb 21 22:06:09 UTC 2020

“*As long as the 'behavior' remains the same the subjectivity must also
remain the same.*”

This is false - clearly.  The taste of something fades as you eat more and
more of it.  This is true of other senses as well. It's called habituation.
The converse is also false - even if the taste remains the same (say you
only had two) you can still quit eating.

bill w

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 07:20, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Stathis,
>>
>> OK, so we have
>>     "Qualia = subjective experiences = an aspect of phenomenal
>> consciousness".
>>
>> And we have
>>     " Behaviour = that which an external observer can see"
>>
>> and we have
>>     “*As long as the 'behavior' remains the same the subjectivity must
>> also remain the same.*”
>>
>> which connects the two in a consistent and factual way.
>>
>> Would you also agree with the converse of the above statement?:
>>     “*As long as the 'subjectivity' (quale) remains the same the
>> behavior must also remain the same.*”
>>
>
> Yes. If we consider a behaviour such as speech, the subject will not say
> that their qualia have changed unless they think that they have changed.
>
> Or at least if there is a set of behavior for a particular 'subjectivity'
>> redness, and a set of behavior for a different subjectivity 'greenness,'
>> if the subjectivity is different the corresponding sets of behaviors for
>> each of those different 'subjectivity' (quale), must be disjoint.  In other
>> words any particular set of behavior can't have two different
>> 'subjectivity' (quale).
>>
>
> Yes, but there is a potential problem here. If we speculate that the
> subject’s qualia have changed from redness to greenness, but their
> behaviour does not change because they do not notice a change, then in what
> sense is it meaningful to say that the qualia have changed?
>
> And, for you, these behaviors which are factually related to particular
>> subjectivity (qualia) are independent of any particular set of physics
>> (only because of the substitution argument).
>>
>> In other words, we have a dependent subjective layer like redness and
>> greenness (and corresponding disjoint sets of behavior) out of which
>> consciousness is constructed, that rides on top of any physical layer in a
>> way that can be considered physical substrate independent.
>>
>> The terminology I think we should use is the former is consciousness is
>> substrate dependent (where that substrate is subjectivity or quala) the
>> behavior of which is independent of any particular set of physics.
>>
>> But I'm imagining you won't like even this kind of qualia being any kind
>> of substrate, so I was trying to come up with another term qualia strate to
>> make you happy.
>>
>
> You’re right, I don’t think it is good to use the word “substrate”
> referring to qualia because “substrate” specifically refers to a physical
> substance. But I am confused as to why you would say consciousness is
> dependent on qualia, since consciousness and qualia are essentially the
> same thing. The only difference is that consciousness is usually used to
> mean multiple qualia taken together.
>
> So, my question to you is: "Do we need a different terminology, or can we
>> consider qualia (and the associated behaviors) as a substrate on which
>> consciousness is dependent?"
>>
>> No matter what you call it, it is still the same thing, right?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 4:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 09:19, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Stathis,
>>>> So then does it help if I point out the fact that consciousness is red
>>>> and green qualia strate dependent (as opposed to saying sub strate
>>>> dependent)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, because I won't know what "qualia strate dependent" means and how it
>>> is different from "sub strate dependent". You could define them but you
>>> would have to do so every time you use them.
>>>
>>> These are some terms that I find unambiguous:
>>>
>>> Qualia = subjective experiences = an aspect of phenomenal consciousness
>>> Behaviour = that which an external observer can see
>>> Qualia are substrate dependent = only a particular substance or physical
>>> process can give rise to the particular qualia
>>>
>>> Are there more terms that are necessary for this discussion and need to
>>> be defined?
>>>
>>> Using even some apparently simple terms such as "knowledge", for
>>> example, can become confusing. "Knowledge" can have an objective as well as
>>> a subjective element; "knowledge of qualia" is doubly confusing, because it
>>> could mean directly experiencing qualia or it could mean observing
>>> behaviour which might be associated with qualia.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:51 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you could simplify your language. “Red qualia” or “red
>>>>>> experience” is understood by most people and is unambiguous. It is also
>>>>>> understood that it is not the strawberry that has the red qualia, it is the
>>>>>> observer. Talking about red, redness, redness quality, redness knowledge
>>>>>> becomes confusing to keep track of. I would have to go back and check if
>>>>>> you mean that “redness quality” is something in the strawberry or in my
>>>>>> mind, and if “redness knowledge” is the same or different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That makes a lot of sense.  Thanks for this information.
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
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> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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>
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