[ExI] Possible seat of consciousness found

Fri Feb 21 22:49:53 UTC 2020

OK - just wanted to correct something I knew was false.  I don't know what
kind of reality you are dealing with where those statements are true, but
I'll stay out of it.  bill w

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 4:31 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi William,
> I described Stathis model back to him.  Then he replied that I needed to
> include: *As long as the 'behavior' remains the same the subjectivity
> must also remain the same.*”
> Then I explicitly pointed to where I said exactly that, in my description
> which I had sent.  That is why I bolded it, so that he would notice that I
> am reiterating it back to him, as he insists.
>
> And as usual, just like John always does, you are stating facts me,
> stathis, and everyone agree with, they are just completely unrelated to
> what we are talking about.
> You  said: "The taste of something fades as you eat more and more of it."
> It is this kind of 'fading' or change, we are talking about, you are
> talking about something that isn't changing, which is true, but completely
> unrelated to the 'fading' conscious knowledge changes we are talking about.
>
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 3:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> “*As long as the 'behavior' remains the same the subjectivity must also
>> remain the same.*”
>>
>> This is false - clearly.  The taste of something fades as you eat more
>> and more of it.  This is true of other senses as well. It's called
>> habituation. The converse is also false - even if the taste remains the
>> same (say you only had two) you can still quit eating.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 22 Feb 2020 at 07:20, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Stathis,
>>>>
>>>> OK, so we have
>>>>     "Qualia = subjective experiences = an aspect of phenomenal
>>>> consciousness".
>>>>
>>>> And we have
>>>>     " Behaviour = that which an external observer can see"
>>>>
>>>> and we have
>>>>     “*As long as the 'behavior' remains the same the subjectivity must
>>>> also remain the same.*”
>>>>
>>>> which connects the two in a consistent and factual way.
>>>>
>>>> Would you also agree with the converse of the above statement?:
>>>>     “*As long as the 'subjectivity' (quale) remains the same the
>>>> behavior must also remain the same.*”
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. If we consider a behaviour such as speech, the subject will not say
>>> that their qualia have changed unless they think that they have changed.
>>>
>>> Or at least if there is a set of behavior for a particular
>>>> 'subjectivity' redness, and a set of behavior for a different subjectivity
>>>> 'greenness,'  if the subjectivity is different the corresponding sets of
>>>> behaviors for each of those different 'subjectivity' (quale), must be
>>>> disjoint.  In other words any particular set of behavior can't have two
>>>> different 'subjectivity' (quale).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but there is a potential problem here. If we speculate that the
>>> subject’s qualia have changed from redness to greenness, but their
>>> behaviour does not change because they do not notice a change, then in what
>>> sense is it meaningful to say that the qualia have changed?
>>>
>>> And, for you, these behaviors which are factually related to particular
>>>> subjectivity (qualia) are independent of any particular set of physics
>>>> (only because of the substitution argument).
>>>>
>>>> In other words, we have a dependent subjective layer like redness and
>>>> greenness (and corresponding disjoint sets of behavior) out of which
>>>> consciousness is constructed, that rides on top of any physical layer in a
>>>> way that can be considered physical substrate independent.
>>>>
>>>> The terminology I think we should use is the former is consciousness is
>>>> substrate dependent (where that substrate is subjectivity or quala) the
>>>> behavior of which is independent of any particular set of physics.
>>>>
>>>> But I'm imagining you won't like even this kind of qualia being any
>>>> kind of substrate, so I was trying to come up with another term qualia
>>>> strate to make you happy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You’re right, I don’t think it is good to use the word “substrate”
>>> referring to qualia because “substrate” specifically refers to a physical
>>> substance. But I am confused as to why you would say consciousness is
>>> dependent on qualia, since consciousness and qualia are essentially the
>>> same thing. The only difference is that consciousness is usually used to
>>> mean multiple qualia taken together.
>>>
>>> So, my question to you is: "Do we need a different terminology, or can
>>>> we consider qualia (and the associated behaviors) as a substrate on which
>>>> consciousness is dependent?"
>>>>
>>>> No matter what you call it, it is still the same thing, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 4:23 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 09:19, Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Stathis,
>>>>>> So then does it help if I point out the fact that consciousness is
>>>>>> red and green qualia strate dependent (as opposed to saying sub strate
>>>>>> dependent)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, because I won't know what "qualia strate dependent" means and how
>>>>> it is different from "sub strate dependent". You could define them but you
>>>>> would have to do so every time you use them.
>>>>>
>>>>> These are some terms that I find unambiguous:
>>>>>
>>>>> Qualia = subjective experiences = an aspect of phenomenal consciousness
>>>>> Behaviour = that which an external observer can see
>>>>> Qualia are substrate dependent = only a particular substance or
>>>>> physical process can give rise to the particular qualia
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there more terms that are necessary for this discussion and need
>>>>> to be defined?
>>>>>
>>>>> Using even some apparently simple terms such as "knowledge", for
>>>>> example, can become confusing. "Knowledge" can have an objective as well as
>>>>> a subjective element; "knowledge of qualia" is doubly confusing, because it
>>>>> could mean directly experiencing qualia or it could mean observing
>>>>> behaviour which might be associated with qualia.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:51 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat
>>>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you could simplify your language. “Red qualia” or “red
>>>>>>>> experience” is understood by most people and is unambiguous. It is also
>>>>>>>> understood that it is not the strawberry that has the red qualia, it is the
>>>>>>>> observer. Talking about red, redness, redness quality, redness knowledge
>>>>>>>> becomes confusing to keep track of. I would have to go back and check if
>>>>>>>> you mean that “redness quality” is something in the strawberry or in my
>>>>>>>> mind, and if “redness knowledge” is the same or different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That makes a lot of sense.  Thanks for this information.
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Stathis Papaioannou
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>> --
>>> Stathis Papaioannou
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>>>
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