[ExI] Mental Phenomena
Ben Zaiboc
ben at zaiboc.net
Sat Jan 11 12:50:20 UTC 2020
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 3:50 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
Brent:
I think I have a way to disprove your idea about physical substances in
the brain producing qualia,
Is your position that specific types of molecule in the brain (e.g. the
infamous glutamate) are what produce specific qualia (e.g. the infamous
'red'), and that this mapping is one-to-one (e.g. glutamate and only
glutamate produces the 'red' quale and only that)?
>Yes
The consequence of this would be that if you removed glutamate from
someone's brain (without killing them somehow), that person would be
incapable of experiencing 'red'.
>Exactly
OK, good.
My original idea turned out to be more difficult to verify than I
expected, but it also gave me two other ideas, that are better, and easier.
Only one is necessary, so I'll talk about the easiest one to explain and
understand, and just mention the other one
I'm going to call this the 'availability argument'.
If a specific type of molecule produces a specific quale as you claim,
then that type of molecule must be deployed or activated somehow, for
the quale to become active. The example you always give, of glutamate,
is a neurotransmitter, that's released at the pre-synaptic membrane,
which is when it does its job of transmitting data from one neuron to
another. If this is also when it somehow causes the 'red' quale to
become active, we have an impossible situation.
That's because of the very large number of qualia that can exist. We
know that humans are capable of distinguishing several million different
colours, and that's only a tiny fraction of all the qualia that can be
experienced. There are probably at least hundreds of millions of qualia
that are possible. By your own claim, each of them must be produced by a
different type of molecule. This means we must have hundreds of millions
of distinct types of molecule at the ready to be activated when needed.
If we assume that most of these molecules are proteins (because there
aren't enough varieties of any other kind of molecule, and and other
type would have to be made by proteins anyway), theoretically there is
no problem in creating them, we know that given enough amino acids, an
arbitrarily large number of different proteins can be created. The
problem is in having them available to be deployed when they are needed.
Neurotransmitters are created in the neuronal cell body and transported
down the axon, then stored in vesicles just inside the pre-synaptic
membrane. Generally, one neuron uses one neurotransmitter (although that
is being called into question now, it doesn't really matter for this
argument, because the number of different neurotransmitters any one
neuron uses is certainly low). When needed (when an action potential
depolarises the synaptic membrane), a set of molecules on the inner
surface of the membrane links the vesicles to the membrane, fusing them
and releasing the contents of the vesicles into the synaptic cleft.
We have identified somewhere between one hundred and two hundred
different signalling molecules that can be used as neurotransmitters.
Let's be generous and say a thousand exist. That's far short of the
number of 'quale-producing' molecules we need, so it's obvious that it
can't just be neurotransmitters that are involved.
Let's assume, then, that some other, currently unknown system is
responsible for the production of qualia, via these hundreds of millions
of different types of molecule.
The core of my argument is that these molecules can't possibly be
pre-existing, ready to be deployed within a fraction of a second in the
way that neurotransmitters are, because we would see them. We would know
about the ridiculously huge numbers of different molecules just hanging
around in our nervous system waiting for an appropriate signal to
release them, or activate them, or whatever. We don't see this, we see a
comparatively small number of signalling molecules instead.
If they can't be stored ready for use, maybe they can be created when
needed?
That doesn't work either. Protein synthesis is not quick. it takes a few
seconds to translate each amino acid, so a large protein (necessary, if
we are to have hundreds of millions of distinct ones) will take minutes
to produce at least. Then there's the transport of the proteins from the
endoplasmic reticulum where they're made to the site/s where they are
needed. For neurotransmitters, this means a trip down an axon, which is
even slower.
So on-demand synthesis is not an option either.
There's also a parsimony issue. Why would our brains make and keep ready
a vast set of molecules for qualia that we may never use? A native of a
tropical forest is very unlikely to ever experience snow. Why keep all
the molecules needed for this in his brain ready for use? We know that
if such a native is exposed to snow, he will instantly experience a new
set of qualia, without having to wait for a set of new molecules to be
produced. With all the overhead involved in creating and maintaining a
very large number of unused molecules, I'm sure evolution would have
weeded out any such profligacy a long time ago.
The upshot of all this is that there is an availability problem.
Hundreds of millions of different types of molecule simply can't be made
available for the production of qualia on the milliseconds timescale
that we need. So the production of qualia can't be something that relies
on a one-to-one correspondence with specific types of molecule.
Another argument involves possible mechanisms for activating or
deploying these molecules (assuming it was possible for them to be ready
and waiting), and how any individual neuron or collection of neurons
could know just which molecule to pick. I'm not going to unravel this
argument here, but essentially it leads right back to what we currently
know about how our nervous system works, and makes an enormous set of
specific types of molecule redundant.
If you, or anyone else, can see any flaws in the 'availability argument'
above, please let me know.
Oh, and PS: /Please stop Cc'ing my email address in your replies to the
list/. I don't want to have to create a filter to automatically delete
any emails from you.
Thanks.
--
Ben Zaiboc
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