[ExI] fanaticism, more

SR Ballard sen.otaku at gmail.com
Mon Jul 6 19:25:10 UTC 2020 

That makes sense. 

SR

> On Jul 6, 2020, at 1:50 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> How is it not -functionally- the same? What does that knowledge now give us the power to do that we couldn’t do before?
> 
> SR Ballard
> 
> Functionally it may very well be the same in the ways we act towards fanatical behaviors in the 'real world'.  What is different is trying to understand where it is coming from for, for one example, therapy for them.  Outside of therapy I would never try to bring unconscious things to consciousness in another person - none of my business.  But if the underlying causes are different, it may let you predict towards whom or what the fanatical behavior is aimed.  If the unconscious mind is hung up on religious issues you may see the fanatic burn churches, or attack or even kill 'sinners'.  If on homosexual issues you may see the fanatical behaviors aimed toward homosexuals ("Let's roll some queers this weekend." - something I have actually heard said). One of our goals is to predict behavior, and if we know nothing of the underlying causes, we cannot do that, since the overt actions, though aimed in different directions, may be the same.  In fact, a fanatic may have both of these causes in his unconsciousness because of what he read in Leviticus.   bill w
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 12:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> I don’t think you understand what I meant at all.
>> 
>> I’m not telling you there isn’t a difference, I’m saying I don’t see one, and I’m asking you, what makes it different?
>> 
>> Okay, knowing that a large sub-group of anti-gay protestors are themselves repressed homosexuals, (and I agree with this, anecdotally), how does that change our approach to them? When we see westboro baptist, do we cry and quietly pull them aside and say “I’m so sorry you’re gay”? That doesn’t really seem like a winning strategy.
>> 
>> Knowing that they are overcompensating, what does that change? How is it not -functionally- the same? What does that knowledge now give us the power to do that we couldn’t do before?
>> 
>> SR Ballard
>> 
>>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 10:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Now you are telling a psychologist that the basic cause of the behaviors doesn't matter, only the effects.  Right?  How are we going to understand people with an attitude like that?  bill w
>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 9:45 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> I don’t see an appreciable difference in relation to fanaticism. If someone is violently anti-gay because they are gay, or because they feel they have been emasculated, what is the functional difference? It’s still fanaticism. 
>>>> 
>>>> SR Ballard
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 5, 2020, at 7:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> SR, what you are describing is called compensation.  What I described is called overcompensation, in which the conscious and unconscious things are the same:  the 100 lb weakling becomes a strong man. bill w
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 6:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Oh, I understand the fanaticism. I was a bit of a fanatic at one point.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is as was described. You have a deep-seated fear you are covering up. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But the fear doesn’t have to match the action. Like if you’re strongly religious it doesn’t have to be from religious doubt, it could be a doubt about your physical health. You could be strongly anti-gay because you have an eating disorder. And so on. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A classic is anti-gay because of sexual abuse of a boy by a man.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SR Ballard
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2020, at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Eschew taking extremist views.  There is too much risk of realizing someday that you have invested most of your life fighting passionately for the wrong side.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't think that any of us can understand the fervor of these people.  They have to go all out or they will punish themselves for wimpy efforts.  In other words, they are driven to extreme positions.  Why didn't some of the people who were burned at the stake recant and live longer?  Because they could not live with themselves if they did that.  I feel quite sure that that was the case with Giordano Bruno.   bill w
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Excellent post BillW.  I will leave it all in there without trimming a word of it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have long suspected extremists in anything are a mixture of people struggling to talk themselves out of their own self-doubt, plus false flaggers, plus people who just like taking some extreme position.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My view on it is this (free spike-ism (you’re welcome.)):
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Eschew taking extremist views.  There is too much risk of realizing someday that you have invested most of your life fighting passionately for the wrong side.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> spike
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 8:25 AM
>>>>>>>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: [ExI] fanaticism, more
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fanaticism is said to have many sociological roots, and you can find those all over the web.  But I didn’t find much on psychological causes, so here’s a few thoughts:
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The obsessive is capable of making very fine distinctions.  One book about it features a man who discovers he is 1/32 Negroid and he is subsequently ostracized.  (Kingblood Royal -Sinclair Lewis).  This will also make the person a bit of a purist - things just have to be a certain way and even slight deviations from it are not permitted.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If you pair this with paranoia, then deviations can be imagined rather than real.  Anything slightly indicative becomes a certainty.  If you pair those with religious content, you get a person who will try to make others believe and act the same as him, even if they have to be forced, like Islamists and Christians did a few centuries ago.  Or just killed.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A recent study of people who were extremely antihomosexual were found to have unconscious tendencies to it themselves, just as many people imagined that they did.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A further factor is overcompensation and reaction formation:  if you are a latent homosexual but do not realize it you are very likely to be a powerful, even violent antihomosexual.  The inner feelings have to be powerfully defended against by conscious feelings of the opposite (which is often called reaction formation).
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So many fanatics are not what they think they are.  If religious, then the strong doubts about the validity of the religion have to be powerfully opposed by the conscious opposites.  Does this mean that some of the people ranting about racism are unconscious racists?  Of course it does.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> 
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