[ExI] fanaticism, more

Mon Jul 6 19:58:27 UTC 2020

Thanks.  At my age it is good to get some feedback.   bill w

On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> That makes sense.
>
> SR
>
> On Jul 6, 2020, at 1:50 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> How is it not -functionally- the same? What does that knowledge now give
> us the power to do that we couldn’t do before?
>
> SR Ballard
>
> Functionally it may very well be the same in the ways we act towards
> fanatical behaviors in the 'real world'.  What is different is trying to
> understand where it is coming from for, for one example, therapy for them.
> Outside of therapy I would never try to bring unconscious things to
> consciousness in another person - none of my business.  But if the
> underlying causes are different, it may let you predict towards whom or
> what the fanatical behavior is aimed.  If the unconscious mind is hung up
> on religious issues you may see the fanatic burn churches, or attack or
> even kill 'sinners'.  If on homosexual issues you may see the fanatical
> behaviors aimed toward homosexuals ("Let's roll some queers this weekend."
> - something I have actually heard said). One of our goals is to predict
> behavior, and if we know nothing of the underlying causes, we cannot do
> that, since the overt actions, though aimed in different directions, may be
> the same.  In fact, a fanatic may have both of these causes in his
> unconsciousness because of what he read in Leviticus.   bill w
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 12:27 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I don’t think you understand what I meant at all.
>>
>> I’m not telling you there isn’t a difference, I’m saying I don’t see one,
>> and I’m asking you, what makes it different?
>>
>> Okay, knowing that a large sub-group of anti-gay protestors are
>> themselves repressed homosexuals, (and I agree with this, anecdotally), how
>> does that change our approach to them? When we see westboro baptist, do we
>> cry and quietly pull them aside and say “I’m so sorry you’re gay”? That
>> doesn’t really seem like a winning strategy.
>>
>> Knowing that they are overcompensating, what does that change? How is it
>> not -functionally- the same? What does that knowledge now give us the power
>> to do that we couldn’t do before?
>>
>> SR Ballard
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 10:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Now you are telling a psychologist that the basic cause of the behaviors
>> doesn't matter, only the effects.  Right?  How are we going to understand
>> people with an attitude like that?  bill w
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 9:45 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I don’t see an appreciable difference in relation to fanaticism. If
>>> someone is violently anti-gay because they are gay, or because they feel
>>> they have been emasculated, what is the functional difference? It’s still
>>> fanaticism.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Jul 5, 2020, at 7:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> SR, what you are describing is called compensation.  What I described is
>>> called overcompensation, in which the conscious and unconscious things are
>>> the same:  the 100 lb weakling becomes a strong man. bill w
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 6:10 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, I understand the fanaticism. I was a bit of a fanatic at one point.
>>>>
>>>> It is as was described. You have a deep-seated fear you are covering
>>>> up.
>>>>
>>>> But the fear doesn’t have to match the action. Like if you’re strongly
>>>> religious it doesn’t have to be from religious doubt, it could be a doubt
>>>> about your physical health. You could be strongly anti-gay because you have
>>>> an eating disorder. And so on.
>>>>
>>>> A classic is anti-gay because of sexual abuse of a boy by a man.
>>>>
>>>> SR Ballard
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 5, 2020, at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Eschew taking extremist views.  There is too much risk of realizing
>>>> someday that you have invested most of your life fighting passionately for
>>>> the wrong side.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that any of us can understand the fervor of these
>>>> people.  They have to go all out or they will punish themselves for wimpy
>>>> efforts.  In other words, they are driven to extreme positions.  Why didn't
>>>> some of the people who were burned at the stake recant and live longer?
>>>> Because they could not live with themselves if they did that.  I feel quite
>>>> sure that that was the case with Giordano Bruno.   bill w
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 10:44 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent post BillW.  I will leave it all in there without trimming a
>>>>> word of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have long suspected extremists in anything are a mixture of people
>>>>> struggling to talk themselves out of their own self-doubt, plus false
>>>>> flaggers, plus people who just like taking some extreme position.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My view on it is this (free spike-ism (you’re welcome.)):
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eschew taking extremist views.  There is too much risk of realizing
>>>>> someday that you have invested most of your life fighting passionately for
>>>>> the wrong side.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2020 8:25 AM
>>>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>>> *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* [ExI] fanaticism, more
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fanaticism is said to have many sociological roots, and you can find
>>>>> those all over the web.  But I didn’t find much on psychological causes, so
>>>>> here’s a few thoughts:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The obsessive is capable of making very fine distinctions.  One book
>>>>> about it features a man who discovers he is 1/32 Negroid and he is
>>>>> subsequently ostracized.  (Kingblood Royal -Sinclair Lewis).  This will
>>>>> also make the person a bit of a purist - things just have to be a certain
>>>>> way and even slight deviations from it are not permitted.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you pair this with paranoia, then deviations can be imagined rather
>>>>> than real.  Anything slightly indicative becomes a certainty.  If you pair
>>>>> those with religious content, you get a person who will try to make others
>>>>> believe and act the same as him, even if they have to be forced, like
>>>>> Islamists and Christians did a few centuries ago.  Or just killed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A recent study of people who were extremely antihomosexual were found
>>>>> to have unconscious tendencies to it themselves, just as many people
>>>>> imagined that they did.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A further factor is overcompensation and reaction formation:  if you
>>>>> are a latent homosexual but do not realize it you are very likely to be a
>>>>> powerful, even violent antihomosexual.  The inner feelings have to be
>>>>> powerfully defended against by conscious feelings of the opposite (which is
>>>>> often called reaction formation).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So many fanatics are not what they think they are.  If religious, then
>>>>> the strong doubts about the validity of the religion have to be powerfully
>>>>> opposed by the conscious opposites.  Does this mean that some of the people
>>>>> ranting about racism are unconscious racists?  Of course it does.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> bill w
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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